Basic Guidelines for Social Success

[Lobstrich]

Here's another one: if I could go back in time, I would have played the guitar a lot more in college. What I never realized was that playing guitar freshman year got me my first girlfriend. This led to one of the best periods of my life. After a few months and the end of the relationship, I eventually stopped learning new stuff on the guitar, got bored with it, and stopped picking it up. All the time, girls told me that they loved guys who play guitar. I was an idiot, though, and didn't think of anyone but myself and what guitar meant to me. Part of the pleasure of doing things is pleasing other people with them. It is wrong to look at things as if they exist in a vacuum. I, for whatever reason, refused to acknowledge other people's existence and factor it into my reasoning. I neglected the fact that playing guitar pleased people other than me and was therefore of more value to me because it helped get me what I wanted.

I must admit, I didn't read the entire thing, I skimmed over it, except for the quote. And I agree, there's nothing wrong with doing things for more than one reason, non at all! But what I'm saying is that; you should play guitar because you WANT to not because everybody thinks it's cool. And of course, if you wanted a girlfriend then that's a reason to play guitar. But I still insist that you shouldn't play guitar because others wanted to, but because you did. Which I assume you did.

 

[zago]

I think this is a very ignorant attitude. I know how that could be construed as an ironic statement. I am not judging you though, only this particular opinion you hold.

I see why you would think that. For years, I held the belief that I could somehow get myself to love everyone. Really, this idea just (1) tormented me because I couldn't live up to it and (2) sent the message to people that it was ok to disrespect me.

I've gone through a LOT of human interaction now that I've been a teacher for a few years. I spent the first couple years in this neurotic state of "being the bigger man" and trying to appease people even when they were jerks to me. Around a year ago, though, I started to give up on that and began to treat people according to what they were really worth to me. I feel unmitigated hatred towards some people. I think some people are absolute trash, without even a hidden core of goodness buried beneath. I don't care. I'm not perfect, and I'm over trying to be. People who try to like everyone are naive and manipulable.

I wish I could go back to grade school and beat the shit out of certain people who gave me a hard time. They try to tell you that this won't solve anything, but I don't buy it any more. They are just trying to break your spirit and get you used to being shit on so they can control you better. I tell ya, I'd have gotten me some muscles and punched a couple people. That woulda shut em up.

By the way, a large percentage of communication is nonverbal. What people tell you is barely even half of what they are conveying. I hold people accountable for their body language as I do for their words.

 

[zago]

I must admit, I didn't read the entire thing, I skimmed over it, except for the quote. And I agree, there's nothing wrong with doing things for more than one reason, non at all! But what I'm saying is that; you should play guitar because you WANT to not because everybody thinks it's cool. And of course, if you wanted a girlfriend then that's a reason to play guitar. But I still insist that you shouldn't play guitar because others wanted to, but because you did. Which I assume you did.

You're still seeing it either/or. It's both.

 

[Lobstrich]

You're still seeing it either/or. It's both.

No I'm not. I think you're misunderstanding me. What I'm trying to say is that no matter what you do, you should do it because you want to, not because others want or expect it.

 

[a detached retina]

I see why you would think that. For years, I held the belief that I could somehow get myself to love everyone. Really, this idea just (1) tormented me because I couldn't live up to it and (2) sent the message to people that it was ok to disrespect me.

I've gone through a LOT of human interaction now that I've been a teacher for a few years. I spent the first couple years in this neurotic state of "being the bigger man" and trying to appease people even when they were jerks to me. Around a year ago, though, I started to give up on that and began to treat people according to what they were really worth to me. I feel unmitigated hatred towards some people. I think some people are absolute trash, without even a hidden core of goodness buried beneath. I don't care. I'm not perfect, and I'm over trying to be. People who try to like everyone are naive and manipulable.

I wish I could go back to grade school and beat the shit out of certain people who gave me a hard time. They try to tell you that this won't solve anything, but I don't buy it any more. They are just trying to break your spirit and get you used to being shit on so they can control you better. I tell ya, I'd have gotten me some muscles and punched a couple people. That woulda shut em up.

By the way, a large percentage of communication is nonverbal. What people tell you is barely even half of what they are conveying. I hold people accountable for their body language as I do for their words.

I find your lack of effort to like everyone as disagreeable as you seem to find others' lack of effort to get everyone to like them.

I find myself tormented when I try to get everyone to like me. Insisting that others like you is almost a form of control, since it requires the compliance of other people. I decided the best I could do was to put in my best effort (showering, being polite, being honest and at the same time respectful etc.) and, as you say "have some self respect" If my efforts are not well received. If somebody doesn't like who I fundamentally am, then the most respectful thing I can do is to distance myself from them.

I don't think anyone should be blamed for not liking anyone else, but I do believe we should put in the effort to at least understand where they're coming from and criticize only their actions and not their selves.

Of course some aspects of human interaction come more effortlessly to some than others. I find it more difficult to keep my room clean and exercise every day and make successful small talk (or large talk for that matter.) I don't believe I should be judged for my natural shortcomings, but I do believe that I should consciously make an effort to improve in these areas.

 

[zago]

No I'm not. I think you're misunderstanding me. What I'm trying to say is that no matter what you do, you should do it because you want to, not because others want or expect it.

But I want to partly because it pleases them.

 

[Solitaire U.]

Don't try to be open minded.

...

This whole post confuses me but I guess I'll just say I'm stuck on the first part. It doesn't make sense. I laid out these guidelines as criteria to be followed for personal gain, not to judge people on. My message is: control what you can control; present the best version of yourself. I never said anything like what you've brought this to--not even close. Your argument is emotionally powerful but illogical. It's a straw man.. you've created a belief that I never put forth, and then vehemently torn it down in a display of, again, sanctimony (as if I don't believe fat or schizophrenic people can have substance, calling me "brother," etc.).

Does this clear up your confusion? I will also point out that applying logic to human relations will have you eventually coming up empty-handed every time. This I know from experience, and I also know it's pointless to point out the flaws in your analytical approach because your apparent lack of experience will force you to fall back on this rather bourgeois 'Darwin-esque' rationale every time. Your assumption that I used 'brother' with some subversive intent is yet another symptom of why my point defies your understanding. Your social formula is simply to play up to what you assume are the expectations of others for the reward of their attentions. Whether those assumptions are based solely on your own shallow expectations of others or combined with some potentially incompetent observations of what you believe to be the social status-quo is largely beside the point when there are so many deeper considerations you haven't touched upon. What is your goal? Social success? How do you even define that, and what is YOUR empirical proof that carefully manicured nails and color coordinated attire equate to a more fulfilling life for ME?

 

[zago]

I find your lack of effort to like everyone as disagreeable as you seem to find others' lack of effort to get everyone to like them.

I find myself tormented when I try to get everyone to like me. Insisting that others like you is almost a form of control, since it requires the compliance of other people. I decided the best I could do was to put in my best effort (showering, being polite, being honest and at the same time respectful etc.) and, as you say "have some self respect" If my efforts are not well received. If somebody doesn't like who I fundamentally am, then the most respectful thing I can do is to distance myself from them.

Thing is, I'm not trying to get compliance. I want people to choose to like me. They don't have to. And some people can go fuck themselves. Sure, I'll follow these BASIC guidelines, but I won't actually compromise anything significant about myself to get people to like me. What certain people are failing to recognize here is that none of my guidelines are a big deal.

I don't think anyone should be blamed for not liking anyone else, but I do believe we should put in the effort to at least understand where they're coming from and criticize only their actions and not their selves.

Why do you think you owe that to people, but you don't owe it to them to do other things, like the things I've listed? I say you don't owe ANYTHING to people and you should act in your own best interest. People can prove themselves to me if they want. I have no obligation to try to see things their way. Their point of view rarely affects me. I should know--I teach a bunch of impoverished people. There's nothing worse than some sucker who will let them get away with anything because they have a hard life. Spare me the details if it doesn't concern me, ya know?

Of course some aspects of human interaction come more effortlessly to some than others. I find it more difficult to keep my room clean and exercise every day and make successful small talk (or large talk for that matter.) I don't believe I should be judged for my natural shortcomings, but I do believe that I should consciously make an effort to improve in these areas.

It doesn't matter what you believe you should or shouldn't be judged for. Nobody cares. They're judging you--all of them. Even the ones who say they aren't. It's human nature. We judge. We make several judgments about people before we even speak to them. And we continue to judge them constantly as long as we know them. It never ends.

 

[Lobstrich]

But I want to partly because it pleases them.

That is where we are different. I do things because it pleases me. It's just an added bonus if it pleases others. If people cannot be pleased with what I am, then I will not bother with them.

 

[Lobstrich]

What certain people are failing to recognize here is that none of my guidelines are a big deal.

Subjective..

 

[zago]

Does this clear up your confusion?

No. Not in the slightest bit. I have no idea what you were getting at.

I will also point out that applying logic to human relations will have you eventually coming up empty-handed every time.

Have me coming up empty handed? I'm quite happy. I have great relationships and a lot of people who I am important to. You are plainly wrong.

This I know from experience,

Something must have been wrong with your approach.

and I also know it's pointless to point out the flaws in your analytical approach because your apparent lack of experience will force you to fall back on this rather bourgeois 'Darwin-esque' rationale every time.

The hell?

Your assumption that I used 'brother' with some subversive intent is yet another symptom of why my point defies your understanding.

You were sincere in calling me brother? That scares me. Stay away from me. I don't like you like that.

Your social formula is simply to play up to what you assume are the expectations of others for the reward of their attentions.

..And? Is pleasing people a foreign concept to you?

Whether those assumptions are based solely on your own shallow expectations of others or combined with some potentially incompetent observations of what you believe to be the social status-quo is largely beside the point when there are so many deeper considerations you haven't touched upon.

Perhaps you missed the part where I said "basic." As in, "not intermediate" or "not advanced." Maybe that's why I seem shallow to you, because you missed the part where I said "basic."

What is your goal? Social success? How do you even define that, and what is YOUR empirical proof that carefully manicured nails and color coordinated attire equate to a more fulfilling life for ME?

I already stated my goal in a previous post, near the beginning of the discussion. I believe that would also lay out some criteria for success.

Empirical proof that hygiene and basic style will improve your life? Obvious. When people talk about you behind your back, it will be about your strengths and not about how you have bad breath, stinky pits, or a ghostly pallor. Or worse, they just won't notice you at all.

 

[zago]

Subjective..

Significant things are like, beliefs, likes and dislikes, habits... stuff like that. I don't think "keeping your living space clean" is a significant aspect of anyone's character. That's the kind of thing you can change about yourself without really changing who you are, ya know? If I were messy and started keeping clean, people would be like, oh, cool, your place is a lot nicer. But if I loved horror movies and then decided that since other people don't like them I'll stop loving them, that's a big deal. I'm not suggesting anything like that.

 

[xbox]

That is where we are different. I do thinks because it pleases me. It's just an added bonus if it pleases others. If people cannot be pleased with what I am, then I will not bother with them.

[FLV][/FLV]


Yeah my thoughts exactly.

I appreciate people for who they are, and expect the same. If I do not like them, I stay away, and they can do the same if they don't like me.

The thing is when you act fake, it's temporary, and you can only put on the act for so long until people start to see right through it.

Leading a life trying to please others would make me a miserable person. And obviously zago, it is not something that you would originally or naturally like for your own sake, since you chose to word it as "pleasing others".

 

[Lobstrich]

You were sincere in calling me brother? That scares me. Stay away from me. I don't like you like that.

You're joking, right? I know this was not directed at me. But first of; overreact much? Second, it's common for some people just call one another "brother" just as if you'd call someone "pal","buddy","dude" and whatever else falls to your taste.

 

[Lobstrich]

Significant things are like, beliefs, likes and dislikes, habits... stuff like that. I don't think "keeping your living space clean" is a significant aspect of anyone's character. That's the kind of thing you can change about yourself without really changing who you are, ya know? If I were messy and started keeping clean, people would be like, oh, cool, your place is a lot nicer. But if I loved horror movies and then decided that since other people don't like them I'll stop loving them, that's a big deal. I'm not suggesting anything like that.

I wasn't saying that I think your guides points are a big deal, nor was I saying that they weren't. All I was saying was that wether or not they are, is subjective.

 

[zago]

And obviously zago, it is not something that you would originally or naturally like for your own sake, since you chose to word it as "pleasing others".

What, so you think I have just picked some random thing I have no interest in, and despite my distaste for it, I suffer through just so I can try to make people like me?

 

[zago]

I wasn't saying that I think your guides points are a big deal, nor was I saying that they weren't. All I was saying was that wether or not they are, is subjective.

What's your point then?

 

[zago]

You're joking, right? I know this was not directed at me. But first of; overreact much? Second, it's common for some people just call one another "brother" just as if you'd call someone "pal","buddy","dude" and whatever else falls to your taste.

That's obnoxious. Like if I say, "go ahead, do whatever you want, pal" it is clearly a display of derision. People who are pals rarely call each other pal.

How often do people on this forum call each other "brother"? Don't be obtuse. And yes, I was being ridiculous, but I think I got my point across that he wasn't just innocently calling me brother. And if he was, I don't feel the same way. I've found that his posts have an invidious tone to them.

 

[Lobstrich]

What's your point then?

That wether or not it's a big deal or not.. Is subjective, like I said. I make a big deal out of what is subjective and what is not. (no pun intented)

 

[Lobstrich]

That's obnoxious. Like if I say, "go ahead, do whatever you want, pal" it is clearly a display of derision. People who are pals rarely call each other pal.

How often do people on this forum call each other "brother"? Don't be obtuse. And yes, I was being ridiculous, but I think I got my point across that he wasn't just innocently calling me brother. And if he was, I don't feel the same way. I've found that his posts have an invidious tone to them.

If you were joking, then why do you continue? I only backed up my claim that "brother" was a normal thing for some people to call each other. Haven't you seen Lost?

 

[Solitaire U.]

That's obnoxious. Like if I say, "go ahead, do whatever you want, pal" it is clearly a display of derision. People who are pals rarely call each other pal.

How often do people on this forum call each other "brother"? Don't be obtuse. And yes, I was being ridiculous, but I think I got my point across that he wasn't just innocently calling me brother. And if he was, I don't feel the same way. I've found that his posts have an invidious tone to them.

Oh for fuck's sake, it's a figure of speech I'm accustomed to. I only wish I could take credit for knowing in advance that it would have such a debilitating effect. Read whatever invidious tone into it you wish, but it won't change the fact that you are essentially defining social success as nothing more than pandering to propriety expectations. You're not covering any new ground here, and appear unwilling to accept that there are valid aversions to your proposed method, as your detractors have been attempting to point out. To me the majority of your rules amount to shit I'm forced to play along with on a daily basis regardless of whether I want to or not simply to provide for my children. Wade through these empty gestures for as many years as I have before you start trying to read between the lines of my invidious F-ing tone.

 

[zago]

To me the majority of your rules amount to shit I'm forced to play along with on a daily basis regardless of whether I want to or not simply to provide for my children. Wade through these empty gestures for as many years as I have before you start trying to read between the lines of my invidious F-ing tone.

You aren't forced. You could always start your own business or find a job that doesn't require you to submit to the backbreaking oppression of having to shower and dress nicely every day.

 

[Melllvar]

That's what I told one of my students to do, I hope he winds up doing it. He is a good kid but really nerdy, plays yugio (sp?) in high school and such, and he always tells me he has a crush on such-and-such girl but they always politely turn him down.

This actually reminded me of a thread I've been meaning to start for a while. You might recommend something like this to him. Of course, it's important to respect who people want to be, not encourage them to change just to fit in with the majority.

Also, this comic :

Spoiler

[bimgx=600]http://www.explosm.net/db/files/Comics/Matt/holding-a-guitar-is-like-turning-an-on-off-switch-for-getting-laid.png[/bimgx]

^ I think that's the basis of this argument. Both you and Solitaire are correct to an extent. Everyone will at some point want to try and fit in (if I like a girl, I'm sure as fuck not going to wear the same clothes I've been in all week and go without showering to the first date, for example), but on the other hand encouraging people to conform to the expectation of others is what creates a world where people who deviate from general social standards are considered unacceptable (*cough* INTPs *cough*).

I think most of this argument/discussion has stemmed from the stance your list took. Like Solitaire said, if it was "how to get laid at parties" or something, we'd all be like, "Yeah, that's stuff we need to know. What else can we do right?" But none of us want to bend over backwards to fit in with arbitrary social standards that have no meaning to us. It's generally about meeting the rest of the world halfway - how to be true to yourself without turning your back on what other people want from you.

 

[zago]

I think most of this argument/discussion has stemmed from the stance your list took. Like Solitaire said, if it was "how to get laid at parties" or something, we'd all be like, "Yeah, that's stuff we need to know. What else can we do right?" But none of us want to bend over backwards to fit in with arbitrary social standards that have no meaning to us. It's generally about meeting the rest of the world halfway - how to be true to yourself without turning your back on what other people want from you.

What, so having good hygiene and making small talk only helps you get laid at parties? Seriously, wtf.

Second, these standards aren't arbitrary at all. Look at each one and try to think of a reason people would desire it. I'd explain them all, but I have to go to work. Maybe later if you still need help.

 

[Melllvar]

What, so having good hygiene and making small talk only helps you get laid at parties? Seriously, wtf.

Second, these standards aren't arbitrary at all. Look at each one and try to think of a reason people would desire it. I'd explain them all, but I have to go to work. Maybe later if you still need help.

I didn't say the entire list was shit. But things like "Wear outfits that ‘pop’ a little bit but not excessively (extremes are usually a bad thing). Bright colors, patterns, and variety of styles (t-shirt, polo, sweater)" are arbitrary and superficial. If I go into a job interview will doing that help me? Almost certainly, yes. But is it because it will show them that I'm better qualified to perform necessary tasks? No, it's because humans are superficial and will look at things that don't matter above things that do.

"Get laid at parties" was overly specific. But in some cases what you're basically suggesting is that we should change our behavior to manipulate human superficiality for our own personal gain ("get laid at parties" is a special case of this).

Honestly I was more just trying to mediate the different viewpoints and suggest a more interesting way for a nerdy kid to learn guitar, not get into the finer points of which items on your list had merit and which ones don't (I already expressed the two I liked the least earlier).

 

[a detached retina]

I'm with Mellvar. When you title something "basic guidelines..." People might see this as "the essentials of..."

Some people read the title as "The basic guidelines" while you might have intended "some basic guidelines." or "some simple guidelines."

I for one was expecting to get a personal theory of how humans interact, and your view of what it all boils down to. If you called it "How to get laid at parties" we'd know you weren't trying to delve into human nature or anything deep, but rather trying to give some simple advice about how to not be completely inept.

Either way I have to disagree with your views about what values are worth trying to live up to. Personal hygiene aside, I think many of the points you raise are debatable in their own right while you seem to treat them as universal assumptions.

@ Mellvar I thought of cyanide and happiness when I first read the guitar bit too!

If I didn't try to be open minded that would defy who I am. Not saying I'm perfectly open minded but it's something I TRY to do.

 

[MissQuote]

Wow, you guys.


I've found the best way to get people to like me is by not caring whether they do or not, (which I just this very moment realised is essentially the same advice about being unattatched to the outcome I have heard/read guys tell eachother many times about how to get female attention, so that is kind of neat because I never understood that and why so may males seemed to say it was the way to more likely get laid) the only peoples standards I actively try to live up to are those whose are a close part of my life.

I think whether one does the things listed or not the outcome in the end will be better all around if there is detatchment from, well, the outcome.

Just thought I would throw that two cents of an idea into all of it.

 

[Poetic Justice]

Some tips:

1. Ask yourself questions about the person you're talking to. WANT to know about them. Are they married? What hobbies do they have? Do they have any pets? Kids? Etc. People like people who are interested in them. Ask them about the things you think they consider important

2. Positive body language. If you're talking to someone, face them. If you are anxious about the social interaction and secretly want it to end, without realising it your body language will show it and without knowing why the other person will think you don't want to talk to them and will probably assume you don't like them. Make sure your feet aren't pointing away from the person (they will usually point in the direction you are thinking of escaping). If they lean forward then you should too.

3. Match and mirror the other person. Copy parts of their body language (be subtle)

4. When the other person speaks watch their body language. Watch what their face is doing. The part of what they saying that they consider the most important part will usually come with a signal. This signal will usually be the most animated part of their body language. They may raise their eyebrows or lean towards you or something more subtle. Usually on the face although everyone is different. Ask them about whatever they were saying when this signal occurred. They'll love you for this. They'll be amazed at how you seem to understand them

5. Find the talkative people of the group and talk to them. You won't have to do as much work.

6. Don't give simple answers. Elaborate on most things. If someone asks you what you do for a living don't just give them your job title. Tell describe to them what you actually do. Tell them a bit about what it's like at your work place. Tell them what you plan to be doing in a few years. Is there any interesting things that happened at your work place recently? What's your boss like? Don't moan too much though

7. Have a few interesting stories ready. It's fine to repeat the same ones to lots of different people.

Erm..... that's it for now. Can't think of any more at the moment

 

[Puffy]

I don't know about everyone else here but I personally have always had quite a vivid internal world. Throughout school I was set not to be popular for some of the reasons zago has listed: I didn't wash much, I had an unkept appearance (wild blonde hair, scruffy clothes), very distant body language and a perpetually worn facial expression. But really all of this can be put down to that I am a person who cares much more for the condition of his imagination than the world around me: my appearance reflected where I spent most of my time, and I didn't even notice anything wrong with it until I was at least 16.

Inferior Se on my part is no excuse not to wash and I understand that. My only genuine problem with, lets say clothes and muscles as an example, is that the appearance translates a character that is not there. I jog fairly frequently, I love walking and hiking, but personally I am very glad this does not translate into muscle on my body, because quite simply I do these excercises to escape into my internal world not to engage with my body or the physical world.

Why wear bright red; expressing passion and lust when I have no interest in sleeping with someone? I really like it when people take an interest in my own internal world, and really it doesn't take much for me to share it with them, but for me this is the basis of whether our relationship will work or not. If you think wearing red will attract dreamers then I am all for it, but to me it is deceiving; I have had superficial friendship groups and I no longer have an interest in them.

 

[zago]

I for one was expecting to get a personal theory of how humans interact, and your view of what it all boils down to.

Because I feel like it:

1. We are FAR more similar than most of us think. There is nothing particularly special about the vast majority of people, even though the vast majority of people think there is something special about them or special rules apply to them.

2. Know yourself, and you will know other people. Know other people, and you will know yourself. This follows from "we are highly similar."

3. People aren't immune to certain emotions - all people feel all emotions. There is no "overcoming fear," "I don't get jealous," "I don't care what anyone thinks about me," "I don't feel pride," or "I never worry." If you believe any of those things or something similar, you have delusions of grandeur and need to take a closer and more honest look at yourself. You are human like everyone else. People want to pick and choose which emotions they experience, and that is BS.

4. Following from my assertion that no one is immune to what other people think, you are NOT being true to yourself if you do not submit to others to some extent. You simply refuse to let the notion that you are better than everyone else go. Making insignificant concessions to people helps your standing with them, increases your confidence, and allows you to better express your true self. Yes, I said it. People who submit to others to a small degree have more integrity than those who don't, because those who don't are stubborn, dishonest, and sanctimonious. When people react better to you, you react better to people. Period. If no one respects you because you are an emaciated and pale pencil pusher who clearly has nothing useful to say to anyone and yet still think you are a genius, it isn't surprising that you don't like to make chit-chat with them.

5. Life's a game, and there are winners and losers. Winners know they are winners, and have pride. Losers know they are losers, but don't admit it to themselves, and are bitter. You know what you need to do to win, because everyone is programmed for successful passing on of genetic information. It's pretty much instinctual. Beyond basic survival needs, ALL people want to find love, to be loved, to love their family, to be popular, to be wealthy, to be important, and to be creative. People who deny these desires in themselves merely find ways to achieve these objectives in a crooked manner. The family drunk makes himself important to others by forcing them to try to save him. That pretty much says it all.

5a. Guys in a nutshell: want as much pussy as possible, and it needs to be HOT pussy. Guys want the hot babe in a string bikini, if not many of them. They also want to make lots of money and have lots of power. They are best served by vigorously educating themselves, getting lots of muscle and endurance, making as much money as possible and otherwise securing the futures of their loves ones, obtaining and maintaining a territory, and developing talents and skills such as playing an instrument, drawing, knowing mechanics, outdoor skills, playing games and sports, telling jokes and thrilling or funny stories, etc. etc. etc. Oh, and getting as many bad ass weapons as is humanly possible.

5b. Girls in a nutshell: being a guy, I can't be as vivid about what girls want, but I do know that girls generally have no idea what they want, so you shouldn't listen to a list made by them unless they are really damn smart and down to earth. Isn't there some saying.... "if you want to be an alpha male, take everything girls say they want and do the exact opposite?" Yeah, it's funny because it's true. Girls, I guess, want in men what I said men are best served by developing in themselves. Dazzling intellect, big muscles, money and security, power, talent, charisma. Girls are best served by spending inordinate amounts of time on their beauty--that alone will have men crawling at their feet, and men are what they want. They should also, though, spend no less time educating themselves, gaining importance in the community or world, developing talents (perhaps a different set in general), and so on.

6. People (I mean ALL INDIVIDUAL people) are concerned with religion, whether they love it or hate it, and always have been. Just gonna leave that there.

 

[Puffy]

@zago: I think you have a lot of good points to share, but.. you might know yourself but I do not think this means you know everyone else.

There are many groups of people for which maintaining traditions and having close proximity to social memory is important; but there are also people of a type that is more isolated and inclined towards more private pursuits. There are many types of people and I don't claim to understand them. But what you seem to have described are various stereotypes, and for some I can see maintaining tradition as a means of validation. For others, well, I know a few woman at least who likely wouldn't feel your description of them is an accurate reflection..

 

[Moocow]

Some of the advice is shaky like going to a tanning bed... sure, if you want to look like a petty, insecure little princess with orange skin.

#16 is abhorrent. If you have "self-respect" you'll avoid making a judgmental ass of yourself. If someone is trying really looking to a socializing guide for help I really hope they don't have the fucking nerve to treat others as shitty as they themselves have probably been treated already.

This is some real frat-boy advice. Winners and losers, bro. Get all the hos, make all the friends, big time social success, bro. Life's about money and bitches, dawg.

"Success" is a questionable enough concept on its own, let alone applying it to how you make friends.

 

[zago]

@zago: I think you have a lot of good points to share, but.. you might know yourself but I do not think this means you know everyone else.

There are many groups of people for which maintaining traditions and having close proximity to social memory is important; but there are also people of a type that is more isolated and inclined towards more private pursuits. There are many types of people and I don't claim to understand them. But what you seem to have described are various stereotypes, and for some I can see maintaining tradition as a means of validation. For others, well, I know a few woman at least who likely wouldn't feel your description of them is an accurate reflection..

Stereotyping is necessary and we all do it, whether we think we do or not. It is possible to talk about and see things on more than one level and make generalizations. I mean, I know TONS of women who wouldn't feel that my description of them is accurate. They are wrong and I am right--that is all. It doesn't matter what they think. I think, though, that I left plenty of room for variation within my analysis. I don't mean to say that there is no such thing as more highly resolved personality. You know, I mean, let's say I'm describing houses. There are certain things houses MUST have, certain things that are nice to have but not all houses do, and then the finer details of houses that set them all apart from one another. ALL houses have a kitchen, at least one bedroom, at least one bathroom, and a living room. Nice houses have a basement, a den, bigger and more spacious rooms, better locations, other assorted specialized rooms, gardens, etc. And then, all houses have different paint colors, styles, floors, roofing, etc. etc. etc. Know what I mean?

 

[Poetic Justice]

Because I feel like it:

1. We are FAR more similar than most of us think. There is nothing particularly special about the vast majority of people, even though the vast majority of people think there is something special about them or special rules apply to them.

2. Know yourself, and you will know other people. Know other people, and you will know yourself. This follows from "we are highly similar."

3. People aren't immune to certain emotions - all people feel all emotions. There is no "overcoming fear," "I don't get jealous," "I don't care what anyone thinks about me," "I don't feel pride," or "I never worry." If you believe any of those things or something similar, you have delusions of grandeur and need to take a closer and more honest look at yourself. You are human like everyone else. People want to pick and choose which emotions they experience, and that is BS.

4. Following from my assertion that no one is immune to what other people think, you are NOT being true to yourself if you do not submit to others to some extent. You simply refuse to let the notion that you are better than everyone else go. Making insignificant concessions to people helps your standing with them, increases your confidence, and allows you to better express your true self. Yes, I said it. People who submit to others to a small degree have more integrity than those who don't, because those who don't are stubborn, dishonest, and sanctimonious. When people react better to you, you react better to people. Period. If no one respects you because you are an emaciated and pale pencil pusher who clearly has nothing useful to say to anyone and yet still think you are a genius, it isn't surprising that you don't like to make chit-chat with them.

5. Life's a game, and there are winners and losers. Winners know they are winners, and have pride. Losers know they are losers, but don't admit it to themselves, and are bitter. You know what you need to do to win, because everyone is programmed for successful passing on of genetic information. It's pretty much instinctual. Beyond basic survival needs, ALL people want to find love, to be loved, to love their family, to be popular, to be wealthy, to be important, and to be creative. People who deny these desires in themselves merely find ways to achieve these objectives in a crooked manner. The family drunk makes himself important to others by forcing them to try to save him. That pretty much says it all.

5a. Guys in a nutshell: want as much pussy as possible, and it needs to be HOT pussy. Guys want the hot babe in a string bikini, if not many of them. They also want to make lots of money and have lots of power. They are best served by vigorously educating themselves, getting lots of muscle and endurance, making as much money as possible and otherwise securing the futures of their loves ones, obtaining and maintaining a territory, and developing talents and skills such as playing an instrument, drawing, knowing mechanics, outdoor skills, playing games and sports, telling jokes and thrilling or funny stories, etc. etc. etc. Oh, and getting as many bad ass weapons as is humanly possible.

5b. Girls in a nutshell: being a guy, I can't be as vivid about what girls want, but I do know that girls generally have no idea what they want, so you shouldn't listen to a list made by them unless they are really damn smart and down to earth. Isn't there some saying.... "if you want to be an alpha male, take everything girls say they want and do the exact opposite?" Yeah, it's funny because it's true. Girls, I guess, want in men what I said men are best served by developing in themselves. Dazzling intellect, big muscles, money and security, power, talent, charisma. Girls are best served by spending inordinate amounts of time on their beauty--that alone will have men crawling at their feet, and men are what they want. They should also, though, spend no less time educating themselves, gaining importance in the community or world, developing talents (perhaps a different set in general), and so on.

6. People (I mean ALL INDIVIDUAL people) are concerned with religion, whether they love it or hate it, and always have been. Just gonna leave that there.

Numbers 3, 4 and 5 are my thoughts almost exactly.

We have to learn to play by societies rules. By making up our own rules and then getting pissed off that others won't play by them we doom ourselves to a life of misery.

 

[zago]

Some of the advice is shaky like going to a tanning bed... sure, if you want to look like a petty, insecure little princess with orange skin.

Tanning beds give a natural tan. You get orange skin by using tanning creams. Furthermore, you don't have to get a very dark tan. A mild tan is an improvement on a pallor that says "I spend almost all my time indoors."

#16 is abhorrent. If you have "self-respect" you'll avoid making a judgmental ass of yourself. If someone is trying really looking to a socializing guide for help I really hope they don't have the fucking nerve to treat others as shitty as they themselves have probably been treated already.

People will walk all over you if you let them. If you never assert your own impressions, no one is going to ever respect you.

This is some real frat-boy advice. Winners and losers, bro. Get all the hos, make all the friends, big time social success, bro.

Yeah, because only losers have friends, social success, and women. Who the hell wants that crap?

I guess you are so highly evolved though that you are into shit that normal people can't even comprehend. Don't bother trying to educate us.

"Success" is a questionable enough concept on its own, let alone applying it to how you make friends.

No, success is not a questionable concept. It is obvious; common sense. You have no common sense. Understand this.

 

[Anthile]

More like "Basic Guidelines for Becoming Patrick Bateman".

 

[zago]

More like "Basic Guidelines for Becoming Patrick Bateman".

Riiiiiight...

 

[Moocow]

Tanning beds give a natural tan. You get orange skin by using tanning creams. Furthermore, you don't have to get a very dark tan. A mild tan is an improvement on a pallor that says "I spend almost all my time indoors."



People will walk all over you if you let them. If you never assert your own impressions, no one is going to ever respect you.



Yeah, because only losers have friends, social success, and women. Who the hell wants that crap?

I guess you are so highly evolved though that you are into shit that normal people can't even comprehend. Don't bother trying to educate us.



No, success is not a questionable concept. It is obvious; common sense. You have no common sense. Understand this.

Common sense for the common toolbag.

 

[zago]

Common sense for the common toolbag.

Toolbag.... good one.

 

[Lobstrich]

Zago, this reply isn't really directed at a specific post. But more so your general attitude. I can understand that you've made these guidelines. They've helped you and all you're doing is sharing. But when we become skeptic towards tanning and wearing specific clothes to gain 'society success' you just act ignorant. Compared to the debate you and I had. Your last few post seem like they are written by the very same people you are trying to impress with your guidelines. You completely disregarded everything everyone had to say and shrugged it off with an "What the fuck does that even mean, and why should I care?" Kind of joke. And it honestly wouldn't surprise me if the same thing happened to my post.

Anyway, my point is that you need to loosen up. You think these are great guidelines, cool. Some of us do not agree with them, cool. You should try to force them onto us and go with remarks like "No, success is not a questionable concept. It is obvious; common sense. You have no common sense. Understand this."

EDIT: In case you were to take this as an attack, don't. I'm just making an observation and telling you what I think, like I would hope any person here would do to me.

 

[zago]

Zago, this reply isn't really directed at a specific post. But more so your general attitude. I can understand that you've made these guidelines. They've helped you and all you're doing is sharing. But when we become skeptic towards tanning and wearing specific clothes to gain 'society success' you just act ignorant. Compared to the debate you and I had. Your last few post seem like they are written by the very same people you are trying to impress with your guidelines. You completely disregarded everything everyone had to say and shrugged it off with an "What the fuck does that even mean, and why should I care?" Kind of joke. And it honestly wouldn't surprise me if the same thing happened to my post.

Anyway, my point is that you need to loosen up. You think these are great guidelines, cool. Some of us do not agree with them, cool. You should try to force them onto us and go with remarks like "No, success is not a questionable concept. It is obvious; common sense. You have no common sense. Understand this."

EDIT: In case you were to take this as an attack, don't. I'm just making an observation and telling you what I think, like I would hope any person here would do to me.

I mean, you don't have to get a tan. But it is a fact that for the most part, people find a light tan more appealing than pale skin. There is nothing wrong with getting a tan, but people have reacted to it as if it is some sort of sin. If you don't want to, don't. But don't actively ignore the facts.

I really don't think I am forcing them on anyone--that isn't possible. I can't make you do these things or believe me. But I am pretty confident that I'm right, and I guess it comes off like I'm trying to force people to see things my way. When I say that success is an obvious, common sense concept, I am not trying to force someone to believe what I believe. I am just telling the truth, with conviction. Kind of like, "DUDE, THERE'S A SNAKE ABOUT TO BITE YOU." I'm not going to pretend that there is a possibility that there is no snake, or that it is just an illusion, like, "Dude, it seems to me like there is a snake where you are about to step, and I can't really know because I might just be dreaming, but it sure looks like it, so you might want to check, but if you don't want to believe there is a snake in front of you, then that's cool man, I respect that."

 

[Lobstrich]

I mean, you don't have to get a tan. But it is a fact that for the most part, people find a light tan more appealing than pale skin. There is nothing wrong with getting a tan, but people have reacted to it as if it is some sort of sin. If you don't want to, don't. But don't actively ignore the facts.

I really don't think I am forcing them on anyone--that isn't possible. I can't make you do these things or believe me. But I am pretty confident that I'm right, and I guess it comes off like I'm trying to force people to see things my way. When I say that success is an obvious, common sense concept, I am not trying to force someone to believe what I believe. I am just telling the truth, with conviction. Kind of like, "DUDE, THERE'S A SNAKE ABOUT TO BITE YOU." I'm not going to pretend that there is a possibility that there is no snake, or that it is just an illusion, like, "Dude, it seems to me like there is a snake where you are about to step, and I can't really know because I might just be dreaming, but it sure looks like it, so you might want to check, but if you don't want to believe there is a snake in front of you, then that's cool man, I respect that."

It is a fact that alot of people like a tan better than pale skin. But that wasn't my point. It was your attitude. You cannot decide what other people feel is best. And I'm going to hold on to the quoted line I had in my last post. Because just because you think "success" is an obvious thing for you (being popular and getting laid) doesn't mean success is the same thing for everyone else. Which is what you seem to believe is the case.

 

[zago]

I was amused by the analogy in the previous post, so I decided to flesh it out a bit. I present to you, Snake Bite.... Or Not? Yeah I know kind of lame and definitely exaggerated, but I guess I'm bored.

Bob: DUDE, WATCH OUT A SNAKE UP AHEAD!
Bill: Huh? Oh, that? Yeah, right.
Bob: WHAT? STOP! A FUCKING SNAKE!
Bill: What the hell man? Why so serious?
Bob: OH FUCK
Bill: Please dude, how can you be so sure? Stop trying to force your beliefs on me, man.
Bob: HOLY SHIT THAT SNAKE JUST FUCKIN BIT YOU
Bill: Omg, how could you ever even prove that? Can you supply me with at least 5 studies on whether or not I just got bit by a snake?
Bob: I'm calling 911 man. Your face is getting really pale. And your eyes are rolling back in your head...
Bill: Wtf man, that's just who I am, ok? If I want my eyes to roll back in my head, well then you had better fucking respect that shit. I really feel like you are just brushing off everything I say.
Bob: BUT YOU JUST GOT BIT BY A BLACK MAMBA.
Bill: ....look.... man..... I..... I...... banjo...... pork..... god I'm so tired..... *plop*
Bob: BILL???????????????????????????

 

[zago]

It is a fact that alot of people like a tan better than pale skin. But that wasn't my point. It was your attitude. You cannot decide what other people feel is best. And I'm going to hold on to the quoted line I had in my last post. Because just because you think "success" is an obvious thing for you (being popular and getting laid) doesn't mean success is the same thing for everyone else. Which is what you seem to believe is the case.

This idiot said that having friends, a woman / women, and social success is something for frat boys. He clearly has no idea what he wants.

 

[Lobstrich]

This idiot said that having friends, a woman / women, and social success is something for frat boys. He clearly has no idea what he wants.

"This idiot" aha.. In my opinion he was right. I realize that getting a tan could lead me to "success" but I do not want such success. Or well I do not want the girls or friends that a tan could lead me to. I want friends who are friends with me because of me not my fucking tan. Or my clothes. Or how much I shower (even though, I never said I didn't like showering.. I do it often, in fact) I want friends who are friends with me, not the things I do or wear.

EDIT: Oh, I quoted "This idiot" because I had something to say about it

Again with the ignorance. Just because he does not agree with you he's an idiot? Right. (Wasn't very long, no. I don't like to rant.)

 

[Moocow]

Zago, the point is that success is relative to the conditions we're aspiring from. If I'm a total loser with no friends and I finally get that one girl I really like, it's not as though I'm only going to experience 1/10th the dopamine of someone who has had 10 girlfriends. Some people are addicted to "success" in such a way that they just spend all their time pushing the standard, while it's just as well to keep the standard low and limit our desires.

It's exactly like (physiologically, even) keeping a low drug tolerance so on whatever special occasions it will feel like your first time all over agian, and again, and again. People will often keep their standards at a level that matches the level of effort they're willing or capable of exerting. It doesn't really achieve much to try to get them to change their standards if they know a lot more about what their comfort zone is than you do.

 

[zago]

"This idiot" aha.. In my opinion he was right. I realize that getting a tan could lead me to "success" but I do not want such success. Or well I do not want the girls or friends that a tan could lead me to. I want friends who are friends with me because of me not my fucking tan. Or my clothes. Or how much I shower (even though, I never said I didn't like showering.. I do it often, in fact) I want friends who are friends with me, not the things I do or wear.

EDIT: Oh, I quoted "This idiot" because I had something to say about it

Again with the ignorance. Just because he does not agree with you he's an idiot? Right. (Wasn't very long, no. I don't like to rant.)

You're looking at things kind of as if reflected by a circus mirror. I'm talking about taking care of details, you know? Clip the nails. Make sure the breath is good. Think about getting a little bronze. This is nothing more than good shop keeping. Trust me, it ISN'T A BIG DEAL AND WON'T ONLY ATTRACT SUPERFICIAL PEOPLE. Look, if you want to attract superficial people who will drop you as soon as you run out of money, rent a Corvette and drive up to a club in it dressed in a suit. Spike your hair up with half a bottle of Axe, unbutton your first two buttons and loosen your tie, and hold a bottle of Grey Goose in your hand. And wear sunglasses so no one can see the pain or boredom in your eyes. Then you'll be getting bitches and hoes. What I'm talking about is very, very innocent. Trust me, I know what I'm talking about. 'Deep' people don't just care about 'deep' things. They have every right to expect some attention to detail, too.

 

[Lobstrich]

You're looking at things kind of as if reflected by a circus mirror. I'm talking about taking care of details, you know? Clip the nails. Make sure the breath is good. Think about getting a little bronze. This is nothing more than good shop keeping. Trust me, it ISN'T A BIG DEAL AND WON'T ONLY ATTRACT SUPERFICIAL PEOPLE. Look, if you want to attract superficial people who will drop you as soon as you run out of money, rent a Corvette and drive up to a club in it dressed in a suit. Spike your hair up with half a bottle of Axe, unbutton your first two buttons and loosen your tie, and hold a bottle of Grey Goose in your hand. And wear sunglasses so no one can see the pain or boredom in your eyes. Then you'll be getting bitches and hoes. What I'm talking about is very, very innocent. Trust me, I know what I'm talking about. 'Deep' people don't just care about 'deep' things. They have every right to expect some attention to detail, too.

Again.. What is a big deal and what is not. As well as what is superficial and what is not. Is subjective.

EDIT: "Deep people don't just care about 'deep' things. They have every right to expect some attention to detail, too." - I never said that 'deep people' do not care about looks. You obviously do not get what I'm saying, at all. I said that people should be friends with me because of me. And not ANYTHING else. Not the 'deep' books I read, not my intellectual opinions, not my fucking bronze and not my clothes. They should be friends with me because they like me, simple.

 

[zago]

Zago, the point is that success is relative to the conditions we're aspiring from. If I'm a total loser with no friends and I finally get that one girl I really like, it's not as though I'm only going to experience 1/10th the dopamine of someone who has had 10 girlfriends. Some people are addicted to "success" in such a way that they just spend all their time pushing the standard, while it's just as well to keep the standard low and limit our desires.

It's exactly like keeping a low drug tolerance so on whatever special occasions it's like your first time all over agian, and again, and again.

No. It is NOT exactly like that. The two situations are SPECTACULARLY unrelated. You're afraid that if you get some success, you're just going to want more and more. I understand. That's a legitimate fear. I think that's what limited me for a long time, too. I've come to understand that I had the wrong ideas about how to achieve success, and what success would be like.

You're not going to get that girl by waiting for her. Girls don't just fall in your lap, not the good ones. You have to work for them, chase them, earn their respect. You sit around waiting for a miracle, and you're going to wind up having to settle for something mediocre or cruddy. Someone you aren't really attracted to and don't particularly like. Because we both know that no one is really willing to go through life without getting together with someone.

Control what you can control. I never felt like I was a witty person, or very articulate, and I blamed that for difficulty with relationships and women. Now I see that there are things that I can control that will help me. I can learn a lot about different subjects. I can play the guitar well. I can get in really good shape, and keep good hygiene and a nice place. All very attractive things--and you know what else? They boost my confidence, and that makes me more witty and articulate. Once you see a path you're willing to take, your motivation may change.

 

[zago]

Again.. What is a big deal and what is not. As well as what is superficial and what is not. Is subjective.

No, it is objective. Objectively, getting a decent tone at the tanning bed takes 2 or 3 sessions of 10-20 minutes of lying on a tanning bed, which costs no more than 20 dollars total. You come out the same person, but with mildly darker skin. In terms of your total time expenditures, money expenditures, and energy expenditures, this is OBJECTIVELY no big deal.