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A Darwinian reason for homosexuality

introverted_thinker

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Is it possible that homosexuality arises out of group selection? As the population of our species is way more than it should be, could carriers of genes predisposing towards male homosexuality be beneficial to our species? I have seen articles illustrating how homosexuality could increase the population, but couldn't the fact that it doesn't help the human race populate be good as well? More people means less resources available to each person, therefore increasing starvation e.t.c

So, could homosexuality be Nature's method of contraception?



Just a thought. :)
 

walfin

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Unlikely as the human race would have died out if there was a pure homosexual gene.

Even as a recessive allele, it should've been weeded out kind of fast.

Homosexuals are probably just confused bisexuals.
 

introverted_thinker

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I said "genes predisposing"; I didn't mention a pure "gay gene."


"Homosexuals are probably just confused bisexuals."- Perhaps. No-one is 100% gay or straight, although to say that homosexuals are "confused bisexuals" may be stretching it a bit.
 

pjoa09

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bonobos are gay. no really. I've read many places where homosexuals have had hetrosexual relationships before being gay or while being gay.
 

introverted_thinker

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bonobos are gay. no really. I've read many places where homosexuals have had hetrosexual relationships before being gay or while being gay.

Perhaps those homosexuals are just "testing the water".
 

crippli

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"Homosexuals are probably just confused bisexuals."- Perhaps. No-one is 100% gay or straight, although to say that homosexuals are "confused bisexuals" may be stretching it a bit.
In the mind of the person things can be black and white, observed behavior can be gray. What is real is a philosophical question.

The things is that most people have sex for pleasure. The reproduction is a side effect. Homosexuality is therefor a more pure form of sex, with less side effects.The reason people don't only do homosexuality is because it takes more effort, and more messy. A heterosexual round can be done in just a few minuts, there is not even need for lube.

I doubt there are any genes specifically involved here. Just the pleasure and lazyness gene. So it appears that homosexual sex provides more pleasure, if one is pure of mind and able to focus exclusively on what you are at. But the effort required both mentally and physically ensures that this will never be a common activity.
 

Da Blob

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homosexuality is a preference. Studies with twins do not indicate any genetic predispositions.

Note, any time identical twins are offered up for adoption, they are separated and given to different sets of parents so that the old debate of nature versus nurture or genetics versus environment can be addressed longitudinally by studying identical genetic profiles in different environments.

As far as I know, there has been nothing in the literature that has refuted that homosexuality is a chosen lifestyle, so the popular "I was born this way" justification, is more of a politically convenient myth than anything else...
 

crippli

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homosexuality is a preference. Studies with twins do not indicate any genetic predispositions.

Note, any time identical twins are offered up for adoption, they are separated and given to different sets of parents so that the old debate of nature versus nurture or genetics versus environment can be addressed longitudinally by studying identical genetic profiles in different environments.

As far as I know, there has been nothing in the literature that has refuted that homosexuality is a chosen lifestyle, so the popular "I was born this way" justification, is more of a politically convenient myth than anything else...
Doesn't this depent on what you mean with preference?

Isn't it a preference to be alive? Can you choose to die, would you be able to do it? And I don't mean imagine that one would be able to commit suicide, but actually do it.

So, is a preferance actually a preferance?
 

Jennywocky

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homosexuality is a preference. Studies with twins do not indicate any genetic predispositions.

Note, any time identical twins are offered up for adoption, they are separated and given to different sets of parents so that the old debate of nature versus nurture or genetics versus environment can be addressed longitudinally by studying identical genetic profiles in different environments.

As far as I know, there has been nothing in the literature that has refuted that homosexuality is a chosen lifestyle, so the popular "I was born this way" justification, is more of a politically convenient myth than anything else...

Srsly?

Anything I've read on this topic starting in the early 90's (well, aside from the politically minded NARTH) does not support your claim here; there's seemingly a mix of bio and environmental influence involved (i.e., there's a correlation in the twin studies done, but it's not a perfect correlation). There is likely not a singular "gay gene," but there are genes and influences operating in conjunction contributing to the extent of expression of the behavior.

This follows up anecdotally as well, both in people I've talked to as well as my observations of a member of my own family who showed gender-variant behavior in a conservative environment at a very very young age and, as is typical, without any liberal influence, came out as gay as soon as puberty was reached. That certainly suggests some level of bio influence, especially in situations where it's extremely non-beneficial in terms of environment stressors to persist in a homosexual identity.
 

Latte

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homosexuality is a preference. Studies with twins do not indicate any genetic predispositions.

Note, any time identical twins are offered up for adoption, they are separated and given to different sets of parents so that the old debate of nature versus nurture or genetics versus environment can be addressed longitudinally by studying identical genetic profiles in different environments.

As far as I know, there has been nothing in the literature that has refuted that homosexuality is a chosen lifestyle, so the popular "I was born this way" justification, is more of a politically convenient myth than anything else...

This is not about how on lives one's life. This is about attraction.

If one accepts the premise that there are no genetic predispositions, it still does not follow that it, nor other sexual or romantic orientations being chosen.

There is nothing in what you said to indicate that the process through which a set of people to whom one is attracted to arises cannot leave something as viscous as being in the area of an archetype INTP or ENFJ when it comes to the manner in which one performs cognition.


Besides the conclusion not following the central axiom presented (no genetic factor), the central axiom is also dubious
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1691850/?tool=pmcentrez
 

Cognisant

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Hmm, I agree with Da blob on this one, the impulse to pursue sexual gratification is inherent but the knowledge of what is or is a not suitable partner is not, I think it's something we learn by phenomenal association and that could easily be interfered with by all manner of environmental and psychological factors.

Y'know there's many different preferences far stranger than homosexuality.
 

Jennywocky

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Hmm, I agree with Da blob on this one, the impulse to pursue sexual gratification is inherent but the knowledge of what is or is a not suitable partner is not, I think it's something we learn by phenomenal association and that could easily be interfered with by all manner of environmental and psychological factors.

While I agree with you in terms of cultural elements in terms of what is considered titilating due to taboo imagery (for example, in cultures where women routinely bare their breasts, breasts are not typically an object of titillation; likewise, feet and ankles can be provocative in cultures where such body parts are kept mysterious and "off-limits"), I'm not sure what you are basing this on; all I see in your post is a statement ("it's inherent") followed by an "I think..." and then "could easily by inferred." IOW, a lot of conjecture.

Some support for your statement would be nice just to find some common ground, as it doesn't mesh with my actual real-life observations or reading as noted above.
 

Cognisant

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Well none of us are neuroscientists so yes it is a lot of conjecture.

And I don't deny the possibility that a predisposition towards homosexuality could be in part attributed to genetics, but I don't think it's entirely genetic and when I suggest that it may be primarily psychological I don't mean to imply any sort of invalidation.

I mean I'm turned on by women in power-armor and exosuits so who am I to judge? :D

Edit: I am definitely attracted to female pheromones and I'm not really interested in male pheromones, but in all honesty I'm not repelled either so I suppose if I were to make the choice I could, in theory, learn to find males attractive; do you think you could learn to find women attractive? I mean c'mon there's breasts, gay or not who doesn't like breasts?
 

Da Blob

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I generally stay away from this issue as I am rather in the middle of the road and so take heat from both sides. My source of information was Oltmanns and Emery's Abnormal Psychology, a standard textbook.

My opinion is this, I believe that many in this modern era are 'tricked' into thinking that Sex is not a means of reproduction and a link to a greater Self via the formation of one's own family. Instead we are conditioned to believe that sex is masturbation with sex objects. We are bombarded with images of other human beings, not as sexual subjects but as sexual objects.

I think that it is a sad thing for a person, for that person to seek sexual gratification with objects, not subjects. Personally, I don't see much difference, morally or psychologically, between those who use same sex objects or opposite sex objects as instruments of masturbation or sex toys.
 

Agent Intellect

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homosexuality is a preference. Studies with twins do not indicate any genetic predispositions.

That's a complete falsehood.

1991/1993 Twin Study.
Bailey and Pillard (1991): occurrence of homosexuality among
brothers
52% of identical (monozygotic) twins of homosexual men were likewise
homosexual
22% of fraternal (dizygotic) twins were likewise homosexual
11% of adoptive brothers of homosexual men were likewise homosexual

Bailey and Pillard (1993): occurrence of homosexuality among
sisters
48% of identical (monozygotic) twins of homosexual women were likewise
homosexual (lesbian)
16% of fraternal (dizygotic) twins were likewise homosexual
6% of adoptive sisters of homosexual women were likewise homosexual



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18536986
In men, the full twin model suggested heritability estimates of 39% for any lifetime same-sex partner (95%CI:00–59%) and 34% for total number of same-sex partners (95% CI: 00–53%) whereas unique environmental factors* accounted for 61% (95% CI: 41–85%) and 66% (95% CI:47–87%), respectively (Table1). No shared environmental effects were found among men. For women, 18–19% of same-sex sexual behaviors were explained by genetic fac-tors and 64–66% by unique environmental factors. Shared environmental effects were weak at 16–17%.

*circumstances during pregnancy and childbirth, physical and psychological trauma (e.g., accidents, violence, and disease), peer groups (other than those shared with a twin), and sexual experiences.


There are plenty more, including one that found concordance in triplets as well as twins.

This also doesn't take into account chromosome linkage studies, brain structure studies, in utero hormone exposure, gene knockout experiments on homosexuality, and the correlation of many other anatomical/physiological traits with homosexuality.
 

Latte

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I generally stay away from this issue as I am rather in the middle of the road and so take heat from both sides. My source of information was Oltmanns and Emery's Abnormal Psychology, a standard textbook.

My opinion is this, I believe that many in this modern era are 'tricked' into thinking that Sex is not a means of reproduction and a link to a greater Self via the formation of one's own family. Instead we are conditioned to believe that sex is masturbation with sex objects. We are bombarded with images of other human beings, not as sexual subjects but as sexual objects.

I think that it is a sad thing for a person, for that person to seek sexual gratification with objects, not subjects. Personally, I don't see much difference, morally or psychologically, between those who use same sex objects or opposite sex objects as instruments of masturbation or sex toys.

If I understand you correctly, this dichotomy you have created leaves out much of what sex for non-reproductive purposes can be.

"Sexual areas" are extremely potent interfaces to the mind of a person. Interaction through these interfaces can be an experience in cruelty, physical pleasure, physical pain, a merging experience, an affectionate experience, a loving experience, a friendly experience, a playful experience, and many many other things. Some mutually exclusive, some not.

Humans are emergent products of evolution. There is no magical inherent purpose to any aspect of us. There are only the possibilities we have, given the parameters of our physical selves.
 

Da Blob

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Homosexuals have spent a lot of time and effort to justify their behavior and they have a lot of liberal intellectuals as allies in this, generating a lot of self-seving propaganda, studies that do not stand up to scientific scrutiny. Usually, it is the same crowd that prefers to believe in Determinism, so that criminals have no free will, but rather are forced by a combination of genetics and environment to seek pleasure at the cost of others.

Oltmanns and Emery, Abnormal Psychology, pg 10, it is all politics...

EDIT:
If I understand you correctly, this dichotomy you have created leaves out much of what sex for non-reproductive purposes can be.

"Sexual areas" are extremely potent interfaces to the mind of a person. Interaction through these interfaces can be an experience in cruelty, physical pleasure, physical pain, a merging experience, an affectionate experience, a loving experience, a friendly experience, a playful experience, and many many other things. Some mutually exclusive, some not.

Humans are emergent products of evolution. There is no magical inherent purpose to any aspect of us. There are only the possibilities we have, given the parameters of our physical selves.

Non-reproductive sex is masturbation and masturbation does have psychological manifestations. If we limit our selves to being physical selves then we are nothing but hairless apes. The mental self has to become part of the equation of the definition of homo sapiens for our society to become more humane.

It is a good point though, about the distinction between physical selves and mental selves, object and subjects. I believe that the dichotomy between male and female humans has been 'artificially polarized' to facilitate the formation of certain cultures. I believe that human nature is much more of an androgynous state, than many cultures allow for. It was once assumed that there were male and female minds connected to male and female bodies, with the female mind considered as of lesser intellectual capacity. This turned out to be a false assumption.

Still we seem to have difficulty dealing with this artificial polarization of male and female as absolutes, where a subject has no choice between attempting to conform to absolute masculinity or to absolute femininity because of the object of male or female body. However, the human brain contains the template for both masculinity and femininity and most humans would exhibit some traits of both, being mentally, if not physically, androgynous.

Instead adolescents are expected to abandon their inherent androgyny and become 100% male or 100% female, an impossible task. So this perceived failure to become either pure male or pure female leads to confusion and vulnerability in many cases and cause some to identify with the opposite absolute for they failed to conform to the absolute dictated by their X or Y chromosome. I mean if one can't be a Real Man or Real Woman, according to the standards of society, what else is there?
 

Fukyo

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Homosexuals have spent a lot of time and effort to justify their behavior and they have a lot of liberal intellectuals as allies in this, generating a lot of self-seving propaganda, studies that do not stand up to scientific scrutiny. Usually, it is the same crowd that prefers to believe in Determinism, so that criminals have no free will, but rather are forced by a combination of genetics and environment to seek pleasure at the cost of others.

Oltmanns and Emery, Abnormal Psychology, pg 10, it is all politics...

The question is....do you have a license to treat them?
 

Agent Intellect

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Homosexuals have spent a lot of time and effort to justify their behavior and they have a lot of liberal intellectuals as allies in this, generating a lot of self-seving propaganda, studies that do not stand up to scientific scrutiny. Usually, it is the same crowd that prefers to believe in Determinism, so that criminals have no free will, but rather are forced by a combination of genetics and environment to seek pleasure at the cost of others.

Translation: anything that disagrees with you is bias and used for various agendas to promote... evil?

That's a nice, cushioned safe zone you've etched out for yourself.

Oltmanns and Emery, Abnormal Psychology, pg 10, it is all politics...

I'm not going to pay $94+ dollars for a single passage. Mind sharing what it says verbatim? Or linking to an online book?

Non-reproductive sex is masturbation and masturbation does have psychological manifestations. If we limit our selves to being physical selves then we are nothing but hairless apes. The mental self has to become part of the equation of the definition of homo sapiens for our society to become more humane.

Sex purely for reproductive purposes is what other animals do. Humans can create and strengthen emotional/romantic bonds with sex (eg putting the mental self into the equation). It is the homophobic/transphobic crowd that wants sex to be nothing but a utilitarian, animalistic ritual for the sole purpose of propagating the species.

It is a good point though, about the distinction between physical selves and mental selves, object and subjects. I believe that the dichotomy between male and female humans has been 'artificially polarized' to facilitate the formation of certain cultures. I believe that human nature is much more of an androgynous state, than many cultures allow for. It was once assumed that there were male and female minds connected to male and female bodies, with the female mind considered as of lesser intellectual capacity. This turned out to be a false assumption.

Still we seem to have difficulty dealing with this artificial polarization of male and female as absolutes, where a subject has no choice between attempting to conform to absolute masculinity or to absolute femininity because of the object of male or female body. However, the human brain contains the template for both masculinity and femininity and most humans would exhibit some traits of both, being mentally, if not physically, androgynous.

Instead adolescents are expected to abandon their inherent androgyny and become 100% male or 100% female, an impossible task. So this perceived failure to become either pure male or pure female leads to confusion and vulnerability in many cases and cause some to identify with the opposite absolute for they failed to conform to the absolute dictated by their X or Y chromosome. I mean if one can't be a Real Man or Real Woman, according to the standards of society, what else is there?

So you're saying that everyone should be androgynous bisexuals?
 

pjoa09

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Perhaps those homosexuals are just "testing the water".

Well females are quite comfortable with being homosexual in many ways. They are also very much comfortable in their judgement of attractiveness of another female. Just general observation. I think we are to some extent bonobo-ish. One point in time we will succumb to a heterosexual relationship to produce an offspring. We may then return to our sexual preference but evolution will serve and forget.

I think lots of 'homosexuals' have had relationships with women and have had the potential to create children. I have never heard of anyone who has been disgusted by female anatomy. This is going to come off a bit extreme, every homosexual has the ability to produce an offspring because it is physically possible.
 

Da Blob

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It is wrong to stereotype individuals, based upon a single trait or behavior. I have viewed the political maneuvering of the Gay Rights movement ever since it was decided to piggyback their cause upon the civil rights movement back in the late sixties. One of the first targets of the financially powerful and basically unethical leadership of the Movement was a small number of psychologists who were vulnerable. They insisted that homosexual behavior should no longer be considered a mental disorder and because of political leverage, not any new scientific evidence, homosexuality was dropped from the DSM on the basis of a heavily influenced vote.
The Gay Rights movement has always been a political movement and 'dirty' politics is something they excel at...


Edit: I think we are determined as androgynous, sexuality is a choice of pleasure, that is when individuals have a choice. Legitimized rape is still the primary method of sex in some cultures.
 

NinjaSurfer

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Is it possible that homosexuality arises out of group selection? As the population of our species is way more than it should be, could carriers of genes predisposing towards male homosexuality be beneficial to our species? I have seen articles illustrating how homosexuality could increase the population, but couldn't the fact that it doesn't help the human race populate be good as well? More people means less resources available to each person, therefore increasing starvation e.t.c

So, could homosexuality be Nature's method of contraception?



Just a thought. :)

Homosexuality is beneficial to society in the following ways:

1) orphans -- our high divorce rate society needs people to take care of orphans. It stands to reason that a homosexual couple is the most efficient way to perform this function, as they (the gay couple) cannot physically reproduce, and will innately seek the gratification of having a child, thus needing to adopt, and thus relieving society of the burden of having to displace resources to care for an otherwise "orphan" child.

2) imbalance of the sexes and specialization... Alpha males versus beta males. Maybe the availability of women is just too scarce in some areas, and vice versa. Or, maybe beta males find it too difficult to mate in a alpha-male dominated social settings-- in that it becomes dangerous to challenge the alpha, so that "gay" genes develop from this evolutionary instance...


And YES. Homosexuality could also be nature's way of telling the human species that we're overpopulating the planet, and that the gay-gene is somewhat of an evolutionary trait to keep the species in check of itself.

Two gay men (or women) cannot reproduce, so there's a +1 for the planet (re: overpopulation). Also, if they additionally care for an orphan, there's another bonus +1 for society.

Therefore, in a society that is accepting of homosexuals, the net effect is positive and a good case can be made that it is an evolutionary trait versus some malfunction.
 

pjoa09

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It is wrong to stereotype individuals, based upon a single trait or behavior. I have viewed the political maneuvering of the Gay Rights movement ever since it was decided to piggyback their cause upon the civil rights movement back in the late sixties. One of the first targets of the financially powerful and basically unethical leadership of the Movement was a small number of psychologists who were vulnerable. They insisted that homosexual behavior should no longer be considered a mental disorder and because of political leverage, not any new scientific evidence, homosexuality was dropped from the DSM on the basis of a heavily influenced vote.
The Gay Rights movement has always been a political movement and 'dirty' politics is something they excel at...


Edit: I think we are determined as androgynous, sexuality is a choice of pleasure, that is when individuals have a choice. Legitimized rape is still the primary method of sex in some cultures.

I agree with most of what you say except for homosexuality being a mental disorder. Homosexual behavior is perfectly normal. It's just a preference.
 

Da Blob

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Translation: anything that disagrees with you is bias and used for various agendas to promote... evil?

That's a nice, cushioned safe zone you've etched out for yourself.

I thought I had been careful to remove any moral commentary...:confused:
And yes, I sit safely above the fray, viewing this political dispute with a degree of distain:matrix:


I'm not going to pay $94+ dollars for a single passage. Mind sharing what it says verbatim? Or linking to an online book?

It is just an explanation of the process of how homosexuality was dropped from the category of mental disorders... There are probably better accounts elsewhere, but I don't know of any that talk about the behind the scenes manuevering.

Sex purely for reproductive purposes is what other animals do. Humans can create and strengthen emotional/romantic bonds with sex (eg putting the mental self into the equation). It is the homophobic/transphobic crowd that wants sex to be nothing but a utilitarian, animalistic ritual for the sole purpose of propagating the species.

No sex for pleasure is what animals do. Pfft! there are some humans that don't even know that having sex can result in pregnancy. There is a vast difference in having sex for pleasure, and having sex to create a family, to create a WE from two MEs.


I am dropping out of this discussion, I generally avoid political issues such as this, for there is little or no profit in them. If anyone cares what I think, feel free to PM me...
 
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SLushhYYY

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My belief is that of Dr. Swabb and the biological differences of the suprachiasmatic nucleus within the hypothalamus of the brain.

Read more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suprachiasmatic_nucleus#Sexual_orientation_and_the_SCN

As for the reason behind homosexuality in society, I believe since the uproar in population size, plus the virtual elimination of evolution within the human race, indifferent mutations are becoming spread far and wide with no reason to stop it. It is a biological mutation, for those who sincerely are homosexual. Many people nowadays seem to be following a trend of bisexuality, which I believe is a coping mechanism.
 

jachian

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Is it possible that homosexuality arises out of group selection? As the population of our species is way more than it should be, could carriers of genes predisposing towards male homosexuality be beneficial to our species? I have seen articles illustrating how homosexuality could increase the population, but couldn't the fact that it doesn't help the human race populate be good as well? More people means less resources available to each person, therefore increasing starvation e.t.c

So, could homosexuality be Nature's method of contraception?



Just a thought. :)
What do you mean by darwinian anyway?... Please define.
 

introverted_thinker

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Homosexuality is beneficial to society in the following ways:

1) orphans -- our high divorce rate society needs people to take care of orphans. It stands to reason that a homosexual couple is the most efficient way to perform this function, as they (the gay couple) cannot physically reproduce, and will innately seek the gratification of having a child, thus needing to adopt, and thus relieving society of the burden of having to displace resources to care for an otherwise "orphan" child.

2) imbalance of the sexes and specialization... Alpha males versus beta males. Maybe the availability of women is just too scarce in some areas, and vice versa. Or, maybe beta males find it too difficult to mate in a alpha-male dominated social settings-- in that it becomes dangerous to challenge the alpha, so that "gay" genes develop from this evolutionary instance...


And YES. Homosexuality could also be nature's way of telling the human species that we're overpopulating the planet, and that the gay-gene is somewhat of an evolutionary trait to keep the species in check of itself.

Two gay men (or women) cannot reproduce, so there's a +1 for the planet (re: overpopulation). Also, if they additionally care for an orphan, there's another bonus +1 for society.

Therefore, in a society that is accepting of homosexuals, the net effect is positive and a good case can be made that it is an evolutionary trait versus some malfunction.

Thanks!:) I'm reading "The Selfish Gene" by Dawkins; I thought he'd give some reasons but he hasn't...so these are really helpful.
 

introverted_thinker

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What do you mean by darwinian anyway?... Please define.

Brought about by natural selection. I'm just trying to provide reasons for why homosexuality does not go against evolution, even if at first sight it appears so.
 

introverted_thinker

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Well females are quite comfortable with being homosexual in many ways. They are also very much comfortable in their judgement of attractiveness of another female. Just general observation. I think we are to some extent bonobo-ish. One point in time we will succumb to a heterosexual relationship to produce an offspring. We may then return to our sexual preference but evolution will serve and forget.

I think lots of 'homosexuals' have had relationships with women and have had the potential to create children. I have never heard of anyone who has been disgusted by female anatomy. This is going to come off a bit extreme, every homosexual has the ability to produce an offspring because it is physically possible.

Agreed, they have the ability to. This does not mean that in practice they will actually do it.
 

Vrecknidj

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Some people are gay and claim strongly it wasn't their choice.
Some people are gay and claim strongly it was their choice.
Some people are gay and claim weakly it wasn't their choice.
Some people are gay and claim weakly it was their choice.

Some people have political reasons for saying any of the 4 above.
Some people have political reasons for denying any of the 4 above.

Some animals bond with others of their sex (usually this is true of females, especially within birds and mammals, but, there are others). Some animals don't have what we think of as "normal" male/female means of reproduction. (http://ed.ted.com/lessons/sex-determination-more-complicated-than-you-thought)

Not only is it not just "black and white" it's not "shades of gray" either. It's a whole spectrum of color.

Dave
 

Hadoblado

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@introverted_thinker
I don't understand the OP's proposition. How would homosexuality be selected for if the benefit is specifically not reproducing? Nature is not an intelligent agent that identifies disproportionate threats to the natural order and then suggests solutions.

Maybe this argument would be better used in a case for the existence of homosexuality in the eyes of God? I might be misunderstanding something.
 

SLushhYYY

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I am curious and would like an elaboration on this idea.

Some people ARE full blown homosexual. I have nothing against them, I actually encourage the gay "mutation" to spread faster to slow the rate of population increase.

Now that it has become much more socially acceptable to be bisexual, and even homosexual. I'm seeing a huge increase in the amount of bisexuals "coming out of the closet", but why? Some people may actually be secret bisexuals, who are attracted to both sexes, that finally feel comfortable enough to accept themselves. Others, potentially, are simply experimenting after a possible bad experience with a straight relationship. Some may now use it as a coping option of not being able to find a partner at all, so they resort to test the waters with somebody that may have a lot in common with even though they are of the same sex.

"Bi-sexual" is an overused term and has simply lost its true meaning. I wish the best to all those that are truly sexually attracted to both genders, more power to them. But for those who seek attention, sympathy, or security through a relationship with the same sex, then it can be viewed as yet another trend in the mainstream.


Not only is it not just "black and white" it's not "shades of gray" either. It's a whole spectrum of color.

So a....rainbow? :D
 

jachian

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Brought about by natural selection. I'm just trying to provide reasons for why homosexuality does not go against evolution, even if at first sight it appears so.

I ask because the darwinian model of natural selection works only on the phenotype..... not on the genotype.

Simply put natural selection works at the level of expressed physical characteristics. Those that enable an individual to survive or that provide an advantage tend to be passed on; those that are a disadvantage soon vanish.

The discussions about gay genes and genetics are irrelevant to the process unless these genes produce a phenotype (physical characteristic/s) that improves the chances of mating with the opposite sex and producing viable offspring.

Since homosexuals generally dont mate with the opposite sex nor have offspring, you have a contradiction. Neither does their phenotype appeal to the opposite sex.

"Inheritance" of homosexual characteristics do not even follow the simplest rules of mendelian inheritance.

My conclusion is that the phenomena of homosexuality has never been influenced by natural selection. Talk about gay genes and darwinian models to explain incidence of homosexuality are simply bad science and nonsense conjecture; more likely inspired by political and social influences.
 

NinjaSurfer

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@jachian -- have you considered that males now might feel safer to be gay? that competition from alpha males is somewhat dangerous enough so that beta and omega males "pretend" to be gay in order to be a non-threat to alpha males? Let's imagine a more primitive culture where the alpha male actually kills his competition (other guys). Then, maybe another male, by feigning to be gay, does not pose a threat to the alpha male, and thus is allowed to survive. Then, other men learn that by acting gay, it is more likely to survive an attack from an alpha male. And thus, gay behaviors are born and passed down... yes, no?

:phear:
 

inner_mind

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so the popular "I was born this way" justification, is more of a politically convenient myth than anything else...
Homosexuals have spent a lot of time and effort to justify their behavior and they have a lot of liberal intellectuals as allies in this, generating a lot of self-seving propaganda, studies that do not stand up to scientific scrutiny. Usually, it is the same crowd that prefers to believe in Determinism, so that criminals have no free will, but rather are forced by a combination of genetics and environment to seek pleasure at the cost of others.
I don't know. All the gay people I know are rather certain about this. Myself, I don't know, I am what I am. I have never been with a woman although I am bisexual, because I met a great man early on. It doesn't really make any difference whether I was born bisexual or I just like women as well as men because I feel like it.

Well? What is the difference?

What if I decided I only liked women from now on? Just because I felt like it? What is the difference? What is now 'unjustified' that was 'justified' before?

Evidence seems weighed towards a 'gay gene' but I tend to think everyone is bisexual to some degree and most people can't deal with that part of themselves, they think it is 'wrong' somehow.

They insisted that homosexual behavior should no longer be considered a mental disorder and because of political leverage, not any new scientific evidence, homosexuality was dropped from the DSM on the basis of a heavily influenced vote.
The Gay Rights movement has always been a political movement and 'dirty' politics is something they excel at...
Good thing for politics, because they are obviously correct. Homosexuality is CLEARLY not a mental disorder.

Still we seem to have difficulty dealing with this artificial polarization of male and female as absolutes, where a subject has no choice between attempting to conform to absolute masculinity or to absolute femininity because of the object of male or female body. However, the human brain contains the template for both masculinity and femininity and most humans would exhibit some traits of both, being mentally, if not physically, androgynous.
Nice, I like this.

My opinion is this, I believe that many in this modern era are 'tricked' into thinking that Sex is not a means of reproduction and a link to a greater Self via the formation of one's own family. Instead we are conditioned to believe that sex is masturbation with sex objects. We are bombarded with images of other human beings, not as sexual subjects but as sexual objects.

I think that it is a sad thing for a person, for that person to seek sexual gratification with objects, not subjects. Personally, I don't see much difference, morally or psychologically, between those who use same sex objects or opposite sex objects as instruments of masturbation or sex toys.
So... you don't believe in romantic love? Or a physical manefestation of that love?

Sure, I have problems with the over-sexualisation of this society too. But to suggest all sex, including that with your life partner, is just masterbation?

And... what exactly is wrong with masterbation or sex for fun anyway?

--------

Although there must be a reason why bisexuality exists in an evolutionary sense, I'm not sure what it is.

It doesn't appear to me that homosexuality removes the desire for children, only that it is harder to have children.

So I think that the children issue might be barking up the wrong tree.

I think it is more about finding an appropriate match for your mind.
 

inner_mind

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Hey Ninja Surfer, that actually makes a lot of sense! Except now-a-days (as in, the last 400 or so years) it is safer to be the straight man. But that is possibly the best answer I have heard on this question.
 

jachian

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@jachian -- have you considered that males now might feel safer to be gay? that competition from alpha males is somewhat dangerous enough so that beta and omega males "pretend" to be gay in order to be a non-threat to alpha males? Let's imagine a more primitive culture where the alpha male actually kills his competition (other guys). Then, maybe another male, by feigning to be gay, does not pose a threat to the alpha male, and thus is allowed to survive. Then, other men learn that by acting gay, it is more likely to survive an attack from an alpha male. And thus, gay behaviors are born and passed down... yes, no?

:phear:

Assuming that your assertions about alpha, beta and omega are true ( I never really bought into that theory) then you are not at all referring to homosexuality as defined as the preference of an individual to be attracted to and to mate with other individuals of the same sex, exhibiting similar secondary sexual characteristics.

What you are implying is a preference for mating with the opposite sex (heterosexuality), but with a tendency to exhibit non threatening behavioural characteristics. Characteristic which are perceived as feminine, passive and non-threatening, noting that many aspects of what we perceive to be masculine and feminine are more socially constructed than biologically hard wired.

Given this to be the case, what would be handed down to successive generations would be the tendency to look and behave in a non-threatening and characteristically female manner and not an inclination towards homosexual mating.

Which bring up another question.... is there a difference in meaning between the terms gay and homosexual?.....
What are we talking about when we use the word gay?
 

inner_mind

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What you are implying is a preference for mating with the opposite sex (heterosexuality), but with a tendency to exhibit non threatening behavioural characteristics.

Not necessarily... if you consider competition for the 'most fit' person to have children with... if they are removed from the competition...

is there a difference in meaning between the terms gay and homosexual?.....

I don't know about everyone else, but to me they are one and the same.
 

introverted_thinker

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Assuming that your assertions about alpha, beta and omega are true ( I never really bought into that theory) then you are not at all referring to homosexuality as defined as the preference of an individual to be attracted to and to mate with other individuals of the same sex, exhibiting similar secondary sexual characteristics.

What you are implying is a preference for mating with the opposite sex (heterosexuality), but with a tendency to exhibit non threatening behavioural characteristics. Characteristic which are perceived as feminine, passive and non-threatening, noting that many aspects of what we perceive to be masculine and feminine are more socially constructed than biologically hard wired.

Given this to be the case, what would be handed down to successive generations would be the tendency to look and behave in a non-threatening and characteristically female manner and not an inclination towards homosexual mating.

Which bring up another question.... is there a difference in meaning between the terms gay and homosexual?.....
What are we talking about when we use the word gay?

If only the tendency to look and behave in a non-threatening and characteristically female manner were passed down, then those men would not have a chance with women (who would probably only be looking to mate with alpha males, and not their inferior effeminate counterparts)-therefore none of their genes would be passed on, and they would cease to exist.

By allowing genes predisposing homosexuality to be passed down, the benefits outlined by NinjaSurfer and myself can take place.
 

jachian

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If only the tendency to look and behave in a non-threatening and characteristically female manner were passed down, then those men would not have a chance with women (who would probably only be looking to mate with alpha males, and not their inferior effeminate counterparts)-therefore none of their genes would be passed on, and they would cease to exist.

By allowing genes predisposing homosexuality to be passed down, the benefits outlined by NinjaSurfer and myself can take place.

You've completely lost me....... what is the selective pressure that your think allows homosexual genes to be passed down?

You admit that in your alpha beta senario that non alpha traits are not selected.
 

Jennywocky

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Assuming that your assertions about alpha, beta and omega are true ( I never really bought into that theory) then you are not at all referring to homosexuality as defined as the preference of an individual to be attracted to and to mate with other individuals of the same sex, exhibiting similar secondary sexual characteristics.

What you are implying is a preference for mating with the opposite sex (heterosexuality), but with a tendency to exhibit non threatening behavioural characteristics. Characteristic which are perceived as feminine, passive and non-threatening, noting that many aspects of what we perceive to be masculine and feminine are more socially constructed than biologically hard wired.

Given this to be the case, what would be handed down to successive generations would be the tendency to look and behave in a non-threatening and characteristically female manner and not an inclination towards homosexual mating.

If NinjaSurfer's ideas are exclusive and comprise all of the homosexual population, then yes.

But I feel like this discussion (not you, in this post, but some other posters) is being completely abstracted from any tangible experience and any prior studies of how preference mechanisms can be permanently changed in various mammal species simply through hormone alterations during the gestation stage.

I mean, it's pretty clear when I watch children who are in situations where being gay is dangerous and/or undesirable and try with great agony to conform / alter their preferences but can't... and who have also exhibited "gay traits" very very young in life... well, it ain't exactly a purely learned behavior. And these anecdotes are not even difficult to uncover; just hang out with gay people, especially those who had to grow up in restrictive religious environments, and ask them what their experiences have been...

is there a difference in meaning between the terms gay and homosexual?.....

If Ninjasurfer's ideas are correct, then there would be a difference between those two terms.
 

BigApplePi

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I've read part-way thru this thread but will give three ideas before I forget them.

I'm going to assume there is a randomness about homosexuality which escapes our tendency to firm up causes.

1. Homosexuality does not result in direct reproduction.

2. Think of grandparents. They are past reproduction but contribute to the well-being of the produced. Therefore grandparents help further along our species. Same with homosexuality. Homosexuals fill in gaps for society that would not otherwise be done.

3. It helps when we select a partner to have variable attraction. Not sure I can explain this well, but if I didn't have a character trait to be fussy, I would not reproduce well. Therefore that which contributes to homosexuality may be the same thing which contributes to our variability. It just goes a little beyond. I haven't explained this well.

4. Note that my attempt to explain #3 is like homosexuality. The attempt may fail but the try is worthwhile. Oddness is good. INTP are odd, but good also, lol.
 

BigApplePi

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Re: A Darwinian reason for androgyny

Edit: I think we are determined as androgynous
I took this from an earlier statement but it's an interesting proposition. Here is how I think of it:

There are definite physical sexual differences. Forget about the internal ones, just look at the external. The more primitive the society the more these differences matter:
1. Males must lift heavy things; women must reproduce.
2. Suitable jobs must be picked and quickly.
3. The family is necessary for survival.
So the sexual differences are blown up and hardened to accomplish these tasks. (Think division of labor.)

Modern society is different.
1. Woman can lift what any man can; reproduction can be outsourced.
2. Any job can be performed by any sex.
2. The family is no longer necessary.
Therefore androgyny will work.
 

introverted_thinker

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You've completely lost me....... what is the selective pressure that your think allows homosexual genes to be passed down?
1. It has been suggested that homosexuality boosts individuals' reproductive success, albeit indirectly. For instance, same-sex partners might have a better chance of rising to the top of social hierarchies and getting access to the opposite sex. In some gull species, homosexual partnerships might be a response to a shortage of males - rather than have no offspring at all, some female pairs raise offspring together after mating with a male from a normal male-female pair.


2.Another possibility is that homosexuality evolves and persists because it benefits groups or relatives, rather than individuals. In bonobos, homosexual behaviour might have benefits at a group level by promoting social cohesion. One study in Samoa found gay men devote more time to their nieces and nephews, suggesting it might be an example of kin selection (promoting your own genes in the bodies of others).
 

introverted_thinker

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I've read part-way thru this thread but will give three ideas before I forget them.

I'm going to assume there is a randomness about homosexuality which escapes our tendency to firm up causes.

1. Homosexuality does not result in direct reproduction.

2. Think of grandparents. They are past reproduction but contribute to the well-being of the produced. Therefore grandparents help further along our species. Same with homosexuality. Homosexuals fill in gaps for society that would not otherwise be done.

3. It helps when we select a partner to have variable attraction. Not sure I can explain this well, but if I didn't have a character trait to be fussy, I would not reproduce well. Therefore that which contributes to homosexuality may be the same thing which contributes to our variability. It just goes a little beyond. I haven't explained this well.

4. Note that my attempt to explain #3 is like homosexuality. The attempt may fail but the try is worthwhile. Oddness is good. INTP are odd, but good also, lol.

2. Homosexuality has been seen to promote kin selection rather than group selection, so this point is good.

3. I think I get it- you're saying that homosexuality is an extension of humans choosing their ideal mate, but goes further and decides not to use the opposite sex. This would probably have to be coupled with another argument to show how it benefits society and why it would thrive in the gene pool.
 

BigApplePi

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3. I think I get it- you're saying that homosexuality is an extension of humans choosing their ideal mate, but goes further and decides not to use the opposite sex. This would probably have to be coupled with another argument to show how it benefits society and why it would thrive in the gene pool.
Yes. Homosexuality goes too far for reproductivity.

Think of this. Conservative people are encouraged and sometimes forced to marry within their own tribe. This is good in the short run for the tribe but not for the long run. If a person is a little wild and marries outside their tribe the offspring can can be more survivalist because of the variability in results. This desirable trait of being "wild" just gets carried too far in homosexuality. One can argue that is okay because wildness is a good trait and we don't want to tame it.

More succinctly said, we can say homosexuality is good as long as it stays within 2% to 10% of the population because we want variability. But let it rise too high and this is bad because it would damage the reproductive family.

My wife and I visited Providencetown (sp?) Massachusetts USA on vacation where the homosexual community is 90-100 percent. We had loads of fun (this is a benefit), but notice this community was confined to a particular location so as not to "contaminate" conservative peoples elsewhere.
 

BigApplePi

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My opinion is this, I believe that many in this modern era are 'tricked' into thinking that Sex is not a means of reproduction and a link to a greater Self via the formation of one's own family. Instead we are conditioned to believe that sex is masturbation with sex objects. We are bombarded with images of other human beings, not as sexual subjects but as sexual objects.
If one treats sex as a toy, one gets short term satisfaction. Then you have to devote energy to finding another toy. If one makes "friends" with a full human being, one gets to have sex more reliably and more often as long as you remain friends.
 
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