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nexion

nexion

coalescing in diffusion 32 From tartarus
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  • I noticed the subjectivity of "wrong", but decided not to change it.


    I agree about the effects, that is what I meant by the second question, not pertaining to anything religious(in fact, the first question is actually the intentionally religious one :p).

    When you understand, or at least know of all the archetypes, what is the point of continuing a life of familiarity? I was going to make a thread, but my ideas weren't fully developed, just rants.



    About enlightenment, "wrong" with respect to the Christian God not wanting Adam and Eve to eat from the tree and also Lucifer being the light bearer.

    I've been called "bright" many times in the past...Am I the light bearer? Am I a shining star?


    YouTube - Diamond Head - Am I Evil?
    Puffy
    Nihilism, absurdism and existentialism, in my opinion, are still there own form of order. It is just rather hyper-rational in nature. Our pursuit of freedom will inevitably escape us, and ironically, imprison us.

    Afterthought: perhaps "acausality", in its purest, experienced, sense is loneliness. To exist with no collective identity, structure or form.
    Puffy
    Hmm, I understand how you might come to deterministic conclusions about the universe and personally see little reason to question that. I do believe in choice, perhaps out of fear as the idea I might have no choice is too harsh a cell for me, the issue for me is in how you can recognise what a genuine 'choice' is. That might be simply evading the issue, lol.

    I would be interested in how you understand "acausal realm"? I've come to see life as an inherently irrational process, for me "acausality" is simply to live without order. Such a human state does not seem likely. I wonder whether the fear of the universe's irrational nature is what inspires people to be so 'rational' to construct societies, orders and collective identities. It is in challenging these one becomes more "acausal". Yet to become "acausal" is a paradox as such means you are inhabiting an indentity as "acausal". Any identity is 'causal' in my opinion.
    Is it wrong to seek enlightenment / knowledge?


    Also, what do you think about understanding life's fundamental archetypes and the continuance of an orthodox life?
    Puffy
    I don't know if I have made progress. More in coming to acceptance of my position. I have had to repress a lot of emotions lately as I have a lot of assignments due and can't let them run wild right now. But I hope to give them proper treatment soon. (Correct the blemish rather than ignore it and let it become a vortex?)

    How are you doing Nil? (:
    Puffy
    Hmm, you have said that before. What do you mean when you say there is symmetry, balance and harmony to the universe?

    I suppose there is a nihilistic element to anarchy, but such seems to represent to me a sort of supra-order, in accepting that while we exist of many contradictory parts it still makes a whole. Things don't have to fit into our structures and models. Anarchy, for me, is an expression of freedom. Not in an absolute sense but in seizing responsibility for ones life rather than passing it on to the state. I don't know if it is realisable; in an ideal world maybe.

    I think you are correct that objectivity (perfection?) is unattainable. But this might just be why we are eternal. Ti seeks perfection, so what would it be without constant blemishes to correct? The on-going spiral of life to me is not that the system is already complete but that there will always be means to make it more complete.
    Puffy
    Hey Nil,

    I might be moving. I might not. Right now it's about whether I can face up to the fear of change or making myself vulnerable. Perhaps questioning what friendship means to me and re-evaluating. If you mean philosophically my current mindset seems quite nihilistic, but that won't last long, realistically I don't nihilism can.

    Brad
    Adymus
    I figured as much, based only on what you said in the OP, I was only curious.
    Puffy
    Haa, perhaps. I mean in terms of working with realistic models "I am uncertain" seems a most basic foundation from which to develop (:
    Adymus
    Curious, what caused that change in interest in your "MBTI and Functions" thread? If you don't mind me asking.
    Puffy
    It is not so negative a thing as you might think. In my opinion it makes the most honest foundation.
    Puffy
    Another perspective is that the stain is our limited perception. We cannot embrace the entirety of the world for what it is. We simply see what our own little light allows us.
    Puffy
    Well, a hint about myself would be that I suffer from bad 'visual snow'. It is like the static on a tv screen that is between yourself and the world.

    I used to always assume everyone had it, so when rational debates would come up I would always say "our vision is not even perfect so why put so much trust in empiricism?" they usually did not understand what I meant.

    I used to see it as a blemish, it could still be, now I see it as a part of myself. In its own way it has contributed a lot to my worldview. (:
    Words
    "The introverted thinking type is characterized by a priority of the thinking I have just described. Like his [p. 485] extraverted parallel, he is decisively influenced by ideas; these, however, have their origin, not in the objective data but in the subjective foundation."

    Subjective foundation = subjective model.

    I'll continue the reading of the link later....it has similar contents with my own book.
    Words
    Actually, my book contains the same info. If you look at the "unconscious attitude." It describes the "inferior function."

    But, regardless of the difference, if you think about the meaning of "Introversion" and "Thinking" and if you synthesized them. There is only one logical answer as to what it is which is certainly an introverted thinking.

    "The former speaks with facts; the latter appeals to the subjective factor. Darwin ranges over the wide fields of objective facts, while Kant restricts himself to a critique of knowledge in general. But suppose a Cuvier be contrasted with a Nietzsche: the antithesis becomes even sharper." -link.

    Yes. this is Ti.
    Words
    If we are talking about MBTI's INTJ and Socionics "name" for INTJ, then I would agree that this is NiTe. But no matter how you see it, I can't imagine Ne being about internal intuition. That is, I can't imagine Ne being about shifting perspectives which is Ni. Functions are defined already via their names. I think most people don't realize that.


    What I think is purely interpretation is the 4-letter system and the J/P argument, not the Function argument.

    Important Note: I don't rely on "descriptions" of functions from any "theory"(MBTI or any else) because they often go beyond what a function is and induce "indirect probabilities/tendencies." It is inaccurate. I simply rely on Jung's definition of E/I, T/F, N/S and I focus more on the relationships between them. It has also became easier for me to connect theory with personal observation of reality. I can notice Ni, Ne etc.
    Words
    "It is just that Socionics attributes it to NiTe while MBTI attributes it to TiNe. What this means, then, is that they actually define the functions differently (as I, once again, have already said)."

    Yes, but, like I said, this is out of hand and contradictory. Read Jung's Original definition of "Extraversion","Introversion", and "Thinking." And some of the segments about the "general attitudes." He talks about how he would combine Extraversion and Thinking to form what is known asExtraverted Thinking. Socionics completely misinterprets this. Again, logically speaking even without reference to Jung, what does "Extraverted Thinking" mean? It's name implies its own attributes. an Extraverted Thinking. Not an introverted thinking. Introverted means t is personal, hence, introverted thinking is about subjective logic.
    Words
    Ah, yes. I have horrible image of Socionics, but I do remember the argument that "TiNe"'s functions are NiTe. I argued against it somewhere in one of ESC's threads.

    Nil. In the case of functions, semantics are priority. Regardless of "differing" notions of cognitive functions, Ni equals "Introverted Intuition" and Te equals "Extraverted Thinking." Now, what does an "Introverted Intuition" mean? Likewise, what does an "Extroverted Thinking" mean? E/I represents the orientation of the function while the "JP" represents the nature of the orientation. Extroverted Thinking = thinking via an external criteria. Introverted Intuition = Intuiting via an internal criteria. Now what do these definitions mean? Logical Organization via Norms and Perspective Shifting. This is not TiNe. What can you say?

    As for my preference, I have my own Type Theory. It's a stricter idea which means it allows less misinterpretations. I'll probably make a thread about it.
    Words
    The origins of the P/J dichotomy is the indirect relationship between "Ji+Pe" and disorganization and lack of follow through. Regardless, I don't think it's a valid relationship in terms of accuracy. Organization exists in all judgement functions. What this dichotomy is actually describing is the difference between Pe and Pi and the small difference between Ji and Je in terms of organization. What do you think?
    Words
    http://www.amazon.com/Portable-Jung-Library/dp/0140150706/ref=pd_sim_b_13

    "That is why INTP and ENTP have mirrored functions rather than conflicting one (TiNe/NeTi vs. NiTe/NeTi, how it is in the original Jungian system.)"

    Nil. It's not a matter of MBTI versus Jungian System. It's a matter of MBTI versus Socionics. But really, the only difference is perspective.

    The Raw Jung Type:

    1. Extraverted Intuitive Type
    2. Introverted Rational Type

    The MBTI Type:

    1. ENxP
    2. IxTP

    The Socionics Type:

    1. ENxP
    2. IxTJ

    Conclusion: It's all the same. The only difference is name, and the fact that the Jung Type does not mention tertiary functions.

    There is no argument. A "rational" type is by definition an introverted judger or an introverted(as a whole) "perceiver." "Perceiver" in MBTI is different from "Perceiver" in Jung, yes, but if you understand the difference, both systems represents the same thing.
    Words
    II. Introverted Type:

    1. Introverted Rational Type - IxxP
    a. Introverted Thinking Type - IxTP
    b. Introverted Feeling Type - IxFP

    2. Introverted Irrational Type - IxxJ
    a. Introverted Sensation Type - ISxJ
    b. Introverted Intuition Type - INxJ


    (Jung Type - XXX) = the MBTI counterpart.
    Words
    I have read segments and the general of idea of Jung's Personality Type Theory, and aside from the semantics, I see no faults if I name it as "Introverted Perceiver". I only name it that way because of common MBTI context. Then again, I failed at realizing you were utilizing a different perspective.


    I think It's really just a misunderstanding. The idea of "P" and "J" in MBTI is not about Perception or Judgment; It's about P=JiPe/PeJi and J=PiJe/JePi. Notice the MBTI descriptions on P/J. It mostly talks about "implementation" and preference in "time of action." P = procrastinators J= finishers.

    If you read his writing, or at least the version of it that I have, he classifies types into:

    I. Extraverted Type

    1. Extraverted Rational Type - ExxJ
    a. Extraverted Thinking Type - ExTJ
    b. Extraverted Feeling Type - ExFJ

    2.Extraverted Irrational Type - ExxP
    a. Extraverted Sensation Type - ESxP
    b. Extraverted Intuitive Type - ENxP
    Words
    "I actually suspect you may be Ne dominant."

    Possibly, but I'm too certain of my "Fe Function Inferiority" status. Jung describes the Introverted Perceiver well.
    Words
    "ISFJ?"

    I don't mean that I'm ISFJ when I write SiFe. I mean that SiFe is a part of me. Originally, I wanted to write TiNeSiFe in the same time and space. But I couldn't, so I just divided their presence via time.

    "Why the drastic change?"

    From INTP to ISFJ? :D It depends on your perspective. My interpretation of the "MBTI type Section" is "personal utility" that includes slight indication of own type based on own personal idea of typology.

    "Regardless Words..."

    Heh. :D Thanks! Your compliment helps in stabilizing my mental condition.

    er on second thought...this is not experimental manipulation on process again, is it? bah, oh well...
    Puffy
    I think it is a matter of finding ways to be satisfied with ones life. My axioms, or any system I create, are delusional. They are created by me - but it is that it is an expression of myself that I value them.

    I would not suggest a truth does not exist, my problem is in being able to discover it. Even if you came across the truth there is no means by which it may be acknowledged as it. In one way or another when one exclaims they have the 'truth' they are expressing their personal preference. Their small light on a dark infinite canvass.

    Without choice, who am I? If I am all I have what is that if it has no will - no means of expressing itself?

    I hope you find that greater essence for which you are looking for. You might be right, your talk on balance sounds quite INTP [Ti]. Though I hope it is not goodbye, are you having a break from the forum?
    I don't think it's weird but I'm used to it. In Islam it's considered a sign of good character to be the first to greet someone else. Muslims say "peace be on you" to strangers.

    Fun comes in the form of philosophy, economics, physics, medicine, esotericism, metaphysics... day dreaming & writing while drinking coffee in a beautiful place is currently my favourite pastime. And you?
    Puffy
    Sorry if this is invasive, I am only speaking from my own experience. It might not be relevant to yours. I think an important part of this might be in accepting that something doesn't have to be objective to be of value. You deserve happiness, you might enjoy something, it deserves to have value simply because you value it. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

    If you are in school it is possible I might have a few more years under my belt. Despite this you seem to be going under an intellectual development I only have done recently. You must be a gifted individual.
    I am at university and of the moment am currently predicted to receive a 1st class honours. This gives me encouragement to work as I would kick myself if I received a 2:1 when I had the ability to do better. I have high aims for myself, and one day want to have a family. Unemployment is very high in the UK at the moment, especially for my career paths, I know if I want to attain my goals I need to work.
    Puffy
    I have had a lot of experience with depression and what tends to happen is you procrastinate and become lost from the real world as it is too tiring to participate in. 'Action', I have found, for myself at least, is the greatest cure for depression.

    I know dealing with a nihilistic view of the world is difficult. Especially coming from a Christian background. But that is why existentialism came to be, so that we may live our lives despite this. Your search might find you truth Nil, but sometimes you need to act, to engage with the outside world to find it. I think I have been through the same truth quest. I eventually had to accept I can never be 'certain' but that this does not mean the discoveries I make have no value to me.
    Whatever type you are I am confident I might be the same one. And there is a certain enlightenment that comes from trying to engage with the world and seeing it past our imaginative lense. I'd personally suggest mountain hiking, but that is my preference :)
    Puffy
    Hmm, I've been in the process for a while of making up axioms for myself to go by. The first axiom was easy - we are uncertain. However, this can steal a good part of your identity so I made the second one 'choice', so that I may believe I express will and have control over my worldview. If uncertainty makes my worldview a blank canvass, choice lets me colour it as I like.
    I discovered these two axioms by themselves were quite solipsist, and a tad selfish, I added 'responsibility' as a third. That my choices should not become so selfish that I don't take responsibility for my actions.
    For a while this was fine. But one I realised was missing was 'action' - this could come under 'choice' but this is different. Choice can be entirely within your own internal world. Action forces you to involve yourself in the outside world.
    Cavallier
    What? Menial labor you mean? What silly and archaic notions of marriage you all have.

    Though, I have to agree. :}
    Puffy
    JimHawkins is doing ok. I think he stopped using this forum a while ago though he lurks ocassionally. He is just passing over a rough period but I think things are getting better.

    I'm fine, things have not been brilliant for myself the last few months either but I have a lot of work piling up which I am busying myself with. As long as I am busy I am not upset and work doesn't usually stress me out much, just distracts me.
    mke2686
    Yes and no i make it a point to look at things from every standpoint. I like to take the best parts of all movements, theries, religion etc, combine them and go my own way.
    mke2686
    Thanks. Ever since i found that pic i've tried to keep it in my head and its taken me to some great places :)
    Puffy
    Hmm, it feels right. It's like it is portraying a world but there is something in the way clouding it. A stain or something.
    Puffy
    I am placing less faith in MBTI as I go on I think. I use the INFJ label because I associate with a lot of the language and descriptions it uses and because it provides with it a group of likeminded people. I suppose I am happy on occasion to place faith in something applying labels to something unexplainable.
    Puffy
    Adymus typed me as an INFJ from my video - I had thought I might be one before so it stuck with me. For myself, I think myself an INFJ because I see that type configuration in myself. I have Ti, which is likely frequently expressed, but I think I am a Ni dominant. Even in how I am concerned with expressing my 'world' - I seem fixed on developing what is my view of reality and at the same time encompass changing perspectives. I don't think I am a Ti dom [as an INTP would be] as I am too directive. If I become a part of a group I take charge. I am keen to emphasise what is my vision and see that play out.

    Why what do you see myself as? And what type do you associate with [if you do].
    Puffy
    I think you are certainly right. Association is probably the chief means of understanding - imo, expressed mostly in stories, stories help associate things. Though symbols don't only have to be linguistic - landmarks and architecture are good examples.
    Perhaps it is rather that language is the only means by which these forms and symbols may be concreted and expressed - to have deeper influence on yourself and others? [I'm just rambling tbh ;) ]
    Puffy
    I can't help but ever see the way we understand reality as metaphorical. As in, what we do is create linguistic models which we think correlate with reality and then place it alongside it. I don't have complete trust in language therefore I see reality as uncertain. At the same time reality as it can be understood is simply synthetic invention, so I try to create a reality which is more stimulating. If I'm damned, I'm damned, but I'm unsure if I see myself moving from this position.

    I think my depression is probably caused by spending too much time in my own abstract world. The best moments I think are when other people try to build a reality with you.
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