What do you think of feminism

[INTPWolf]

Words of a wise man.
https://youtu.be/GeixtYS-P3s
Altho its safe to say any words coming from Morgan Freeman will sound wise.

 

[al.otakupunk]

Okay, so I read the entire thread, roasted some marshmallows on a few of the posts, and now I'd like to try and address a certain issue.
Now, I'm an anarcha-feminist, and could probably write you a book on why feminism is still needed. However, I am too lazy to do so, so I would like to add my two cents to an issue that's been being mentioned several times in this thread: statistical favoring of women in child custody cases.
Now, a lot of you have been saying that men and women are different psychologically, including the idea that women are more nurturing than men. Now, imagine you're a judge with that exact line of thinking. You're presiding over a court case between a divorced heterosexual couple entangled in a custody battle. You need to decide which person would be best for the child. Who do you choose: the woman, who is naturally suited to caregiving, empathetic, willing to sacrifice life and limb for their offspring, and who will probably remarry anyway and provide an extra income and a male parental figure for their child? Or do you choose the man, who will be cold, overly logical, ignore his child for his work, probably can't cook or clean to save his life and will leave his kid starving in a pigsty, and thinks that the answer to all of his kid's problems is telling them to "man up" and "rub some dirt in it" before offering his kid a beer?
Chances are, you'll choose the woman. Especially if the man cannot prove that he would be more fit to be a parent.
That is how that line of thinking hurts men. Aside from pigeonholing women into the role of the domestic caregiver, men are never given the chance to raise or spend quality time with their kids.
Also, do you see the problem with your logic, if you're someone who feels this way? You're claiming that this system is unfair to men, while at the same time supporting the very stereotypes that broke the system in the first place. By your own logic, women near-automatically winning custody battles is perfectly fair, because only women can provide the emotional, nutritional, and possible emergency medical care that a child may need, and only they can properly rear a child.

That's all I have the energy to say right now. I surrender the floor. *prepares s'mores ingredients*

P.S. If you got here before me, I promise I will read your posts too.

 

[TheAdditional1]

Yikes. After reading the first few comments here I'm just going to say this:

Rights movement is about equality. Not about having more power either way. A common fallacies involves overshooting and aiming for majority power, rather than equality. Another one is when those in power often feel "suppressed" because their balance of power is going down absolutely, even if it's comparatively negligibly.

Look at it this way. Imagine you have 15 apples and the other side has 5. The other side starts petitioning for rights. They come up with a month dedicated to the hardships of trying to get by with only 5 apples. They develop "5 apples pride" to emotionally compensate for the struggles they have to go through. Then they start petitioning for their rights - they deserve the same amount of apples too!

Progress is made - in a few years, they now have 8 apples and the other side has 12. The side that has 12 only sees that they lost 3 apples - it's less than the 15 that they're comfortably used to, and suddenly they feel suppressed and under attack. "Where is white history month?" "Why can't we have straight pride parade?" "Where are men's rights?" IT'S NOT THERE BECAUSE YOU NEVER HAD STRUGGLES THAT REQUIRED THESE EXTRA FACILITIES. YOUR DEFAULT IS AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN JUST FINE AND GOOD ENOUGH. But no, these people only see that their priority has been sapped, and they are unhappy and bitter.



Now let's go a different direction with the analogy - the fallacy of overshooting, which is the main reason we ever question feminism. This would be extremism, and where intense emotions often carry right on beyond the reasonable goal of the movement and revenge and hostility takes over. Black people who want to be militant and hostile; rabid gay people who make videos saying they want to se to remove homosexuality from the Bible (a real example that's been making the rounds on Facebook, by the way); feminists who want to completely dominate men entirely. Or the 5-apple group who thinks that it's time to take all the apples from the other group, instead of aiming for 10 apples to each side - equality.



So to answer the question, do we need feminism? Hell yes. Do we need feme-extremism? Hell no. Reason and rationale needs to be at the forefront - people are ignorant and bitter enough as it is, and we should only be going for the long-term goal of FAIRNESS and EQUALITY for all - NOT power or dominance. That is an emotional fallacy.

 

[Sabreena]

Look at it this way. Imagine you have 15 apples and the other side has 5. The other side starts petitioning for rights. They come up with a month dedicated to the hardships of trying to get by with only 5 apples. They develop "5 apples pride" to emotionally compensate for the struggles they have to go through. Then they start petitioning for their rights - they deserve the same amount of apples too!

Progress is made - in a few years, they now have 8 apples and the other side has 12. The side that has 12 only sees that they lost 3 apples - it's less than the 15 that they're comfortably used to, and suddenly they feel suppressed and under attack. "Where is white history month?" "Why can't we have straight pride parade?" "Where are men's rights?" IT'S NOT THERE BECAUSE YOU NEVER HAD STRUGGLES THAT REQUIRED THESE EXTRA FACILITIES. YOUR DEFAULT IS AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN JUST FINE AND GOOD ENOUGH. But no, these people only see that their priority has been sapped, and they are unhappy and bitter.

Yes. People who have privelege in the first place don't need to have special support systems and discrimination laws because the entire world is already set up for them.

 

[Sinny91]

Well said Additional1.

Also, women should get more of a sway in a custody battle, (providing both parents are equally suitable and adequate to care for the child), because she done the whole incubating thing - that's gotta count to for summat.

 

[FlorisV]

Is feminism overrepresented in western culture today? Should we start a mens rights trend in the other direction?

A topic as interesting as it is delicate and hairy...IMO...

1. It is not overrepresented, it can however be poisoned by hatred of men and by forgetting the notion that men and women are not totally equal in their desires and preferences.

Now that most feminist ideals have been accomplished, there is a tendency to overdo it and for instance invent quotums to have more women in the top, while many women simply don't want to sacrifice their spare time for that. Just let people do what they want and what they're good at.

Toxic feminism tends to be vile towards men, as if they're all rapists, pigs and not good for anything. This toxic feminism has been destructive in many ways as many women influenced by it, while initially making the demands, ultimately seem to blame men for adapting to those demands, the man having become a "wimp" rather than the traditional "man's" man. Some men have become too careful and scared to be sexual towards women or have become more caring parents by necessity, only to see women lose interest in sex with him because he's not manly enough. In other words, the man always does wrong with this type of feminist.

Feminism is not "done" IMO. Not in Western culture and certainly not in other cultures, such as Islamic ones. But it's barking at wrong trees at times, it needs to become more self conscious rather than keep repeating militant claims such as the 50% quotums. Women need to rethink their own identity and the modern masculine identity in relation to it. To be more precise the cultural understanding of what is and should be male-female needs to be redefined if not abandoned. Feminism needs to wise up and make more room for the growing diversity among people rather than stick to a 50% representation ideal and tire the world with dogma on what men and women should be.

2. Maybe but it seems to have a massive image problem and to get ridiculed, as if MRA's are just a bunch of wimpy whiners. And with the exception of certain unfair divorce laws, men have enough rights, mostly. Wherever unfair, make those laws more fair, if a rights movement is the only way, I am all for it.

 

[Frankie]

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqEeCCuFFO8

 

[DrGregoryHouse]

A topic as interesting as it is delicate and hairy...IMO...

1. It is not overrepresented, it can however be poisoned by hatred of men and by forgetting the notion that men and women are not totally equal in their desires and preferences.

Now that most feminist ideals have been accomplished, there is a tendency to overdo it and for instance invent quotums to have more women in the top, while many women simply don't want to sacrifice their spare time for that. Just let people do what they want and what they're good at.

Toxic feminism tends to be vile towards men, as if they're all rapists, pigs and not good for anything. This toxic feminism has been destructive in many ways as many women influenced by it, while initially making the demands, ultimately seem to blame men for adapting to those demands, the man having become a "wimp" rather than the traditional "man's" man. Some men have become too careful and scared to be sexual towards women or have become more caring parents by necessity, only to see women lose interest in sex with him because he's not manly enough. In other words, the man always does wrong with this type of feminist.

Feminism is not "done" IMO. Not in Western culture and certainly not in other cultures, such as Islamic ones. But it's barking at wrong trees at times, it needs to become more self conscious rather than keep repeating militant claims such as the 50% quotums. Women need to rethink their own identity and the modern masculine identity in relation to it. To be more precise the cultural understanding of what is and should be male-female needs to be redefined if not abandoned. Feminism needs to wise up and make more room for the growing diversity among people rather than stick to a 50% representation ideal and tire the world with dogma on what men and women should be.

2. Maybe but it seems to have a massive image problem and to get ridiculed, as if MRA's are just a bunch of wimpy whiners. And with the exception of certain unfair divorce laws, men have enough rights, mostly. Wherever unfair, make those laws more fair, if a rights movement is the only way, I am all for it.

This.

A lot of women are out of control in their thought processes. That is, their feelings and emotions become exclusive of logic. With this feminism thing, ironically, its no different. Like a wildfire raging out of control they would consume everything in their path to whatever end they feel they should be after. Everything...reduced to ash in the process.

The ashes of the esteem of countless heaps of men and boys lie piled up upon the earth. Ironically these are the same men and boys that mothers, and more especially the stubborn single mother typology, professed to love and care about so deeply at one point.

Its very unpopular to say to the point of heresy these days but a lot of women (a majority?) in my experience act like little children in that they operate under the assumption of "long term consequences be damned, I'm going to do what I want and feel right now". There seems to be more of an absence of delayed gratification among females. Very generally and very broadly speaking of course.

Everyone, male and female, suffer for it: babies, toddlers, boys, girls, young men, young women, young adults, adults, old men, and old women. Ironically it seems obvious to me that the stubborn man hating single mothers suffer the most day to day yet of course their stubbornness and outright emotional wildfire keeps them from self understanding.

A rare gem indeed is the woman who leads from a position of polite, gentle, wisdom: deferring (and remaining silent as required) when best to defer to the man and giving voice to truth, reason and logic as the situation demands.

The woman who seems to do the most damage is the woman who doesn't understand and appreciate the differences that are inherent in men and women. These women insist against all reason, self evident truth, and nature that men and women are equal in all respects. Moronic and destructive is this. Has been destroying individuals and societies at an ever quickening rate in the last century.

 

[kora]

Is it me or is feminism becoming a more frequent topic on this forum? In the media in general perhaps it is more and more discussed as of late. Despite the awful comments to be found, This is good.

A rare gem indeed is the woman who leads from a position of polite, gentle, wisdom: deferring (and remaining silent as required) when best to defer to the man and giving voice to truth, reason and logic as the situation demands..

^ I was going to write out a lengthy answer but I think above post suffices in proving feminism is still needed. Women are intellectual inferiors who can't reason and should shut up if a man talks, she must speak in a soft voice so as not to shock and annoy her company with shrill womanly opinions delivered in an aggressive fake manly manner that is not her biological birth right. hahaha seriously. Oh god... I'll still write a lengthy answer. Which no one will read probably.

Other reasons:

-I could also go on about a culture of hypersexualisation that has exploded in the past 30 years where women are routinely judged and valued on their sexual appearance first and foremost with media reducing them to sexual objects and teaching boys to manipulate and do anything to get sex without any regards for the human beings behind the tits and ass. (And watch it MRA's I'm not saying all men are rapists I'm saying boys are taught that their social worth is determined by how much pussy they get, and media actively portrays women as disposable sex objects) Source: porn culture and the adolescents I went to school with (that locker room talk is vile, not that it takes place in the locker room necessarily either, sometimes it was to my face example "a good girlfriend should have the three C's: cleaning cooking and fuCking" and yeah they're adolescents, so? "Boys will be boys"? Older guys in my school would call out scores to new young girls in the dinner hall as they walked out, this is not innate biological behavior, someone taught them to do it.) more sources are the degrading cat calls, whistles like I am a dog comments on my body and insults (if I do not respond) if I walk on the street at night. Or in the daytime actually. The effects of objectification and self objectification as a result are well documented, why do you think 90% of anorexics are women? Self objectification leads to social anxiety, depression and obviously makes the individual be distracted by and focused on their appearance which explains why behavior that would be considered vain and comical in men (spending hours in front of a mirror for example) are considered normal on women. Women are taught to self objectify and look at their body as decoration instead of an active tool to manipulate the world. Men are taught that women are decoration and that their bodies are active tools to manipulate the world, simple no? If your body is an active tool to manipulate the world in your own mind then it would tend to form a more active and assertive personality corresponding to traditionally "masculine" traits.

-Worldwide statistics for attempted rape on a woman is 1/5 I believe? 1/6 for American women in any case. Look up the figures yourself.

In response to "women are more likely to be awarded childcare than the father": this is a feminists concern also, as his or her aim would be to combat traditional gender roles whereby women are assigned child rearing and housekeeping, and I'm willing to bet that the reason the mother is given the child is because of this stereotype. So this is a feminist concern. Norway is considered to be among the most feminist countries and it has adopted paternal leave equal (or almost equal) in order to combat this particular gender role.

Ps: I seriously have never in my life met this stereotypical man hating ugly feminist. Where are you people going to get your documentation on feminism? Show me some Internet site of so called feminists actively hating and insulting the future slaves. Oops I meant men. Sorry I'm a feminist I can't help myself typed too quickly.

 

[Seteleechete]

The woman's body is a sexual object among other things denying it is simply stupid people are judged on first impressions. I will be more attracted to an appealing girl over an unappealing one as such the appealing girl will have a better chance of gaining my attention. I will judge you by your body and certain body types will gain a better judgement certain appearances have a better chance of corresponding to certain personality traits I find desirable.

That said you could be the most appealing girl in the world but I would still dislike you if I disliked your personality and vice versa if you are unappealing. How you act within the first few second usually tells me more about you than your appearance anyway but the less I know about your personality from other sources the more I will judge you on appearances in the meanwhile.

The "decoration" is the active tool you are using to manipulate the perceptions other people has of you. (I am doing the same thing, I want to be seen as not normal/uncaring/rebellious and my clothing reflects that when I can be bothered with trying to actively manipulate preceptions anyway).

My usual answer to women wanting to go topless in the street is "sure go ahead, just don't expect me not to stare at you with desire". This sentiment applies to the entire topic as far as I am concerned, you should be free to do whatever you want and I should be free to judge you for it. If you don't want the objectifying attention don't be appealing, you have a choice of going out in hot clothes and as such getting the attention, or not going our in hot clothes and not getting it(or at least getting significantly less of it).

Yes, there is the fact that you wouldn't be considered normal and therefore I would argue it's not self-objectification that leads to social anxiety/depression it is the need to be "normal". If the norm changed to less sexual objectification the problems it leads to would still remain the reasons would simply be different.

I don't mind feminism wanting to change things to be less sexualised I just mind them expecting me to stop sexually objectifying people when it is convenient/I enjoy doing so(i.e watching porn/ads with hot girls instead of ugly once). I actually have a hard time thinking of a way for feminism to reach their goal without me being bothered with the method... You could change what appealing was culturally in the long run but that would just result in a new appealing.

In the end I actually think this matter it is a matter of biology and sex being appealing wins out when the society is liberal.

 

[DrGregoryHouse]

My thoughts in red as I read this post

-I could also go on about a culture of hypersexualisation that has exploded in the past 30 years where women are routinely judged and valued on their sexual appearance first and foremost with media reducing them to sexual objects and teaching boys to manipulate and do anything to get sex without any regards for the human beings behind the tits and ass. Agreed. The woman = meat BS has got to be reversed(And watch it MRA's I'm not saying all men are rapists I'm saying boys are taught that their social worth is determined by how much pussy they get, and media actively portrays women as disposable sex objects) Source: porn culture and the adolescents I went to school with (that locker room talk is vile, not that it takes place in the locker room necessarily either, sometimes it was to my face example "a good girlfriend should have the three C's: cleaning cooking and fuCking" and yeah they're adolescents, so? "Boys will be boys"? Older guys in my school would call out scores to new young girls in the dinner hall as they walked out, this is not innate biological behavior, someone taught them to do it.) more sources are the degrading cat calls, whistles like I am a dog comments on my body and insults (if I do not respond) if I walk on the street at night. Or in the daytime actually. The effects of objectification and self objectification as a result are well documented, why do you think 90% of anorexics are women? Self objectification leads to social anxiety, depression and obviously makes the individual be distracted by and focused on their appearance which explains why behavior that would be considered vain and comical in men (spending hours in front of a mirror for example) are considered normal on women. Women are taught to self objectify and look at their body as decoration instead of an active tool to manipulate the world. Men are taught that women are decoration and that their bodies are active tools to manipulate the world, simple no? If your body is an active tool to manipulate the world in your own mind then it would tend to form a more active and assertive personality corresponding to traditionally "masculine" traits. TO whatever extent this is being tolerated or encouraged it needs to be changed immediately. Just as unacceptable as man hating

 

[DrGregoryHouse]

My usual answer to women wanting to go topless in the street is "sure go ahead, just don't expect me not to stare at you with desire". This sentiment applies to the entire topic as far as I am concerned, you should be free to do whatever you want and I should be free to judge you for it. If you don't want the objectifying attention don't be appealing you have a choice of going out in hot clothes and as such getting the attention, or not going our in hot clothes and not getting it(or at least getting significantly less of it).

Why is it so difficult for women to understand that men are hardwired to eye rape women?

Its ridiculous all the hoes who dress provocatively and then complain about being eye raped...or all the women in society in general wanting to dress provacatively and in a sexually desirous manner yet are surprised when they are eye raped or actually raped.

Women, in general, need to figure this simple truth out.

And, no, castration is not the answer.

How about a little caution on female's part.

Also, if women would shame all the hoes making porn and otherwise acting promiscuous, it would go a lllooonnnggg way towards reforming society towards having a better more healthy perspective on sexual relations between men and women.

BY limiting the supply of sex, demand would go up as well. More women would find themselves emotionally satiated in their relationships as a result of course.

 

[Frankie]

Other reasons:

-I could also go on about a culture of hypersexualisation that has exploded in the past 30 years where women are routinely judged and valued on their sexual appearance first and foremost with media reducing them to sexual objects and teaching boys to manipulate and do anything to get sex without any regards for the human beings behind the tits and ass. (And watch it MRA's I'm not saying all men are rapists I'm saying boys are taught that their social worth is determined by how much pussy they get, and media actively portrays women as disposable sex objects) Source: porn culture and the adolescents I went to school with (that locker room talk is vile, not that it takes place in the locker room necessarily either, sometimes it was to my face example "a good girlfriend should have the three C's: cleaning cooking and fuCking" and yeah they're adolescents, so? "Boys will be boys"? Older guys in my school would call out scores to new young girls in the dinner hall as they walked out, this is not innate biological behavior, someone taught them to do it.) more sources are the degrading cat calls, whistles like I am a dog comments on my body and insults (if I do not respond) if I walk on the street at night. Or in the daytime actually. The effects of objectification and self objectification as a result are well documented, why do you think 90% of anorexics are women? Self objectification leads to social anxiety, depression and obviously makes the individual be distracted by and focused on their appearance which explains why behavior that would be considered vain and comical in men (spending hours in front of a mirror for example) are considered normal on women. Women are taught to self objectify and look at their body as decoration instead of an active tool to manipulate the world. Men are taught that women are decoration and that their bodies are active tools to manipulate the world, simple no? If your body is an active tool to manipulate the world in your own mind then it would tend to form a more active and assertive personality corresponding to traditionally "masculine" traits.

QUOTE]

Consider that children spend more time around women during their formative years. If all of these teachings are to be corrected, the bulk of the responsibility actually lies on women.

 

[Sinny91]

Ha, the level of Bullshite in this thread is mildly amusing.
Thank God (who would be a woman, obvs), these idea's are only in words and not actions.

 

[TheAdditional1]

Ha, the level of Bullshite in this thread is mildly amusing.
Thank God (who would be a woman, obvs), these idea's are only in words and not actions.

MORE THAN WOOOORDS TO SHOW YOU FEEEL, THAT YOUR LOVE FOR MEEEE IS REEEEAL

 

[Sinny91]

Lol, oddly enough that song came into my head as I typed the above post.
Synchronocity n tha' aye.

 

[emmabobary]

You might find this interesting :v
http:// http://www.mgtow.com/

 

[Brontosaurie]

-I could also go on about a culture of hypersexualisation that has exploded in the past 30 years where women are routinely judged and valued on their sexual appearance first and foremost with media reducing them to sexual objects and teaching boys to manipulate and do anything to get sex without any regards for the human beings behind the tits and ass. (And watch it MRA's I'm not saying all men are rapists I'm saying boys are taught that their social worth is determined by how much pussy they get, and media actively portrays women as disposable sex objects) Source: porn culture and the adolescents I went to school with (that locker room talk is vile, not that it takes place in the locker room necessarily either, sometimes it was to my face example "a good girlfriend should have the three C's: cleaning cooking and fuCking" and yeah they're adolescents, so? "Boys will be boys"? Older guys in my school would call out scores to new young girls in the dinner hall as they walked out, this is not innate biological behavior, someone taught them to do it.) more sources are the degrading cat calls, whistles like I am a dog comments on my body and insults (if I do not respond) if I walk on the street at night. Or in the daytime actually. The effects of objectification and self objectification as a result are well documented, why do you think 90% of anorexics are women? Self objectification leads to social anxiety, depression and obviously makes the individual be distracted by and focused on their appearance which explains why behavior that would be considered vain and comical in men (spending hours in front of a mirror for example) are considered normal on women. Women are taught to self objectify and look at their body as decoration instead of an active tool to manipulate the world. Men are taught that women are decoration and that their bodies are active tools to manipulate the world, simple no? If your body is an active tool to manipulate the world in your own mind then it would tend to form a more active and assertive personality corresponding to traditionally "masculine" traits.

i don't disagree with anything you said really. but if i read the subtext and context right, you're basically arguing that these gender roles are cultural constructs with no biological foundation. i'd like you to confirm or deny this.

no-one would claim that rating girls in high school specifically is an innate behavior. high schools are rather novel historic entities and i think this is common knowledge. however it's entirely plausible to argue that there is a biological basis for gender asymmetries perpetuated by cultural institutions. and if there is, the solution to any problem like this must be something else than education on a tabula rasa premise with the official goal of equal outcome. i see many people arguing that it's 100 % cultural, but i have never met a single person who claims that every gender role expression is hardwired.

male toddlers prefer mechanics, and female toddlers prefer humanoids. males are characterized by having vastly higher concentrations of the hormone that is the primary mediator of sex drive. there are real differences. it doesn't come down to what somebody once taught somebody. it's not just about "how we think". we are all creatures of instinct and denying that is intellectually unsound, analytically impotent, meaningless. it selectively ignores causality and complexity, succumbing entirely to the subjective agency bias.

none of this applies if my assumption about your impetus was incorrect.

in my view this is mostly about prejudice, prejudice is roughly proportional to scarcity, and the "solution" is simply the organic macro progress of human civilization. current feminism is a bit like throwing an inhalator to a drowning person. now i realize this may sound like fatalism, but it's rather a question of perspective and analytical leverage.

 

[bokehgirl91]

Good job whining at feminists for blaming rape on men collectively while at the same time talking about feminisms as if though it were constituted of moronic feminazis only. All this anger directed at a strawman... it's obvious feminism is needed.[/QUOTE]


doing some research it said there was a high amount of men being raped as well. And as most of know all rapes aren't what's televised. somehow I would know...

 

[AbstractCanvas]

The main discrepancy comes from differences in the evaluation of the deficiencies in positive discrimination vs those in homogeneity of roles. since i have a preference for positive discrimination which is tied to the idea that gender roles are inherent, feminism seems more like an ideal built for communist or socialist societies. in the end since most people don't extend their evaluation of achievement and motivations to perform beyond their own desires, it's a movement that does more harm than good within the grand scheme of things in the western world.

much of the mainstream feminist are also dishonest. i can't believe the pay gap still gets discussed. no respectable economist (including feminist economists) take it seriously at all and it's been debunked for years now. similar false narrative are continually pushed because feminists fail to take accountability for how things result.

something ironic about feminism is that their ideas are based on the objectification of men. for example, by telling a man that they shouldn't look at an attractive woman's breasts and should moderate their behavior is to disregard differences in: the male nature compared to the female nature, expression of sexual impulses, feelings and interpretations when they see something that stimulates them. therefore an argument that it's wrong for a man to look at a woman's breasts on the basis that "there is more to a woman than just her body" is ironic in that sense. the individual is also shaping the morality of the event based on their own ignorance. in essence, objectification is the basis of forming generalisations.

i don't value the feminist approach, many of their objectives or many of their philosophies (or most things associated with the movement in general); however the feminist movement does indirectly bring up some good questions. if the movement is occuring because some women feel that their strengths are being under utilised then the value and effect of such strengths should be under review. for example, when it comes to fields that women gravitate towards such as humanities arts etc (assuming that this is correlated with the divide in the male and female skillset), it could be argued that women's efforts are being undervalued since they're being judged in reference to a masculine ideal. since STEM fields are perceive to be of greater value to society (higher pay etc) if they are associated with masculinity then this implies that there is a huge underdevelopment in female roles which should be addressed. humanities should be developed to the point that they are just as respectable, intense and rigorous as the STEM fields.

 

[DrGregoryHouse]

The main discrepancy comes from differences in the evaluation of the deficiencies in positive discrimination vs those in homogeneity of roles. since i have a preference for positive discrimination which is tied to the idea that gender roles are inherent, feminism seems more like an ideal built for communist or socialist societies. in the end since most people don't extend their evaluation of achievement and motivations to perform beyond their own desires, it's a movement that does more harm than good within the grand scheme of things in the western world.

much of the mainstream feminist are also dishonest. i can't believe the pay gap still gets discussed. no respectable economist (including feminist economists) take it seriously at all and it's been debunked for years now. similar false narrative are continually pushed because feminists fail to take accountability for how things result.

something ironic about feminism is that their ideas are based on the objectification of men. for example, by telling a man that they shouldn't look at an attractive woman's breasts and should moderate their behavior is to disregard differences in: the male nature compared to the female nature, expression of sexual impulses, feelings and interpretations when they see something that stimulates them. therefore an argument that it's wrong for a man to look at a woman's breasts on the basis that "there is more to a woman than just her body" is ironic in that sense. the individual is also shaping the morality of the event based on their own ignorance. in essence, objectification is the basis of forming generalisations.

i don't value the feminist approach, many of their objectives or many of their philosophies (or most things associated with the movement in general); however the feminist movement does indirectly bring up some good questions. if the movement is occuring because some women feel that their strengths are being under utilised then the value and effect of such strengths should be under review. for example, when it comes to fields that women gravitate towards such as humanities arts etc (assuming that this is correlated with the divide in the male and female skillset), it could be argued that women's efforts are being undervalued since they're being judged in reference to a masculine ideal. since STEM fields are perceive to be of greater value to society (higher pay etc) if they are associated with masculinity then this implies that there is a huge underdevelopment in female roles which should be addressed. humanities should be developed to the point that they are just as respectable, intense and rigorous as the STEM fields.

This just makes too much sense to be of any practical application...society and individuals just might make too much positive progress if these ideas were to be understood and the implications implemented. Right on tho

 

[emmabobary]

Why is it so difficult for women to understand that men are hardwired to eye rape women?

Its ridiculous all the hoes who dress provocatively and then complain about being eye raped...or all the women in society in general wanting to dress provacatively and in a sexually desirous manner yet are surprised when they are eye raped or actually raped.

Women, in general, need to figure this simple truth out.

And, no, castration is not the answer.

How about a little caution on female's part
Also, if women would shame all the hoes making porn and otherwise acting promiscuous, it would go a lllooonnnggg way towards reforming society towards having a better more healthy perspective on sexual relations between men and women.

BY limiting the supply of sex, demand would go up as well. More women would find themselves emotionally satiated in their relationships as a result of course.

Gee! I was so blind! Thank you guys for this revealing posts. Keep surprising me how stupid people can be...
Are you justifying rape on the bases that some women dress in a provocative way or do things you consider provocative?
Why you don't need to justify, man! You can rape for any reason you want, no one says you can't. You're able, and if you do so, don't worry there's this thing called law, there have been laws against rape since 1550 a.c. They used to kill rapists back then.
Also you can watch with desire, of course you can! You're just complaining because you see these women telling you you can't watch them with desire. You can't think further, needed to justify yourself.
Your argument is invalid, your complaint is so silly. Please go away, out of this planet and die. Earth doesn't need you.

 

[NormannTheDoorman]

It encourages me to stay single. Perhaps I'll move over to my local Buddhist monastery.

 

[Fukyo]

Please go away, out of this planet and die. Earth doesn't need you.

These kinds of hostile knee jerk statements reflect badly on women who champion feminism, feminism itself and women in general. Don't reinforce stereotypes.

 

[ygnextend]

I'm a female yet I can't stand feminism. I don't understand were some of you ladies are coming from. You bash men yet turn around and search for a husband like a crackhead when you hit your early 30s.

Or what I have noticed on social media most feminist are white women who are overweight,anger at their circumstances, then turn around and speak ill of fit, or model thin women-ITS STRANGE-.My family is from South America and most of the women in my family respect the men they have chosen to marry and have kids with. They don't fight them, act bitchy,gain a lot of weight, or talk horribly about another women because she has her shit together.

All in all I just get an ANGRY/BITTER WOMAN vibe from these ladies. They want equality yet don't respect men. It's like a lizard doing calculus, it doesn't make sense.

YGN

 

[emmabobary]

These kinds of hostile knee jerk statements reflect badly on women who champion feminism, feminism itself and women in general. Don't reinforce stereotypes.

Well, I guess no one gets sarcasm here
Also wasn't angry on feminist basis, but logical.
I'm just saying that if we don't actually question our beliefs, ideologies and ethics about this and other important topics, then we might get stuck in dogma, wich will inevitably lead us to an infinite void of falacies.
For example it doesnt really matter if my behavior is knee jerk, not only because you saw there what you wanted to see: the -or you what you want to think- Reforced stereotype of a feminist, but also because I simply used it to remark the actual principal message: his argument was not valid. And think about it, it obviously was a futile and absurd argument to justify rape and things like that, but you wasn't reading that!!
Sorry
can't be polite when I'm pointing a wrong way to reason.
Neither really care what others think about me or my behavior.
CMON people, think furtherrrr :v

 

[emmabobary]

I'm a female yet I can't stand feminism. I don't understand were some of you ladies are coming from. You bash men yet turn around and search for a husband like a crackhead when you hit your early 30s.

Or what I have noticed on social media most feminist are white women who are overweight,anger at their circumstances, then turn around and speak ill of fit, or model thin women-ITS STRANGE-.My family is from South America and most of the women in my family respect the men they have chosen to marry and have kids with. They don't fight them, act bitchy,gain a lot of weight, or talk horribly about another women because she has her shit together.

All in all I just get an ANGRY/BITTER WOMAN vibe from these ladies. They want equality yet don't respect men. It's like a lizard doing calculus, it doesn't make sense.

YGN

.....well.
I can only say
"De todo hay en las viñas del Señor"
* asumes fetal position* *cries*

 

[DrGregoryHouse]

..All in all I just get an ANGRY/BITTER WOMAN vibe from these ladies. They want equality yet don't respect men. It's like a lizard doing calculus, it doesn't make sense.

YGN

I think the same thing.

There is no logic at the root of their angst.

Its purely emotional. To the exclusion of reason.

An emotional wildfire raging out of control. Unquenchable flames of jealousy, insecurity, fear etc etc

 

[kora]

I'm a female yet I can't stand feminism. I don't understand were some of you ladies are coming from. You bash men yet turn around and search for a husband like a crackhead when you hit your early 30s.

Or what I have noticed on social media most feminist are white women who are overweight,anger at their circumstances, then turn around and speak ill of fit, or model thin women-ITS STRANGE-.My family is from South America and most of the women in my family respect the men they have chosen to marry and have kids with. They don't fight them, act bitchy,gain a lot of weight, or talk horribly about another women because she has her shit together.

All in all I just get an ANGRY/BITTER WOMAN vibe from these ladies. They want equality yet don't respect men. It's like a lizard doing calculus, it doesn't make sense.

YGN

I am convinced you are not female lol.

 

[Brontosaurie]

I am convinced you are not female lol.

Let's not be able to do basic 7th grade algebra and go to the nerdy weird guys forum and ask them instead lol i'm feminist.

 

[kora]

Let's not be able to do basic 7th grade algebra and go to the nerdy weird guys forum and ask them instead lol i'm feminist.

I know nerdy weird feminists though. I also know feminists who can do 7th grade algebra

 

[emmabobary]

Let's not be able to do basic 7th grade algebra and go to the nerdy weird guys forum and ask them instead lol i'm feminist.

Let's assume other's ideologies and reproach them for making a plain comment to make a bad joke lol woman=feminism=iugh.

 

[Brontosaurie]

Let's assume other's ideologies and reproach them for making a plain comment to make a bad joke lol woman=feminism=iugh.

Your argument is beautiful but there are issues.

1. I didn't assume. higs is pretty much a self-proclaimed feminist judging by the contents of this very thread.

2. The 'plain comment', though, did assume.

3. It was a good joke. At least that's my impression.

 

[Tannhauser]

The reason that feminism will never solve the objectification problem is that the female population is divided between those who want to work against the objectification and those who want to exploit it for their own good.

 

[emmabobary]

1. I didn't assume. higs is pretty much a self-proclaimed feminist judging by the contents of this very thread.

You just did XD Lol

People in this very thread took me as a feminazi for loudly complaining about crazy irrespective arguments of some guy(s)
But I'm not even a feminist... I haven't even read Bavoir's work, pls ppl gimme a chance :v

 

[Brontosaurie]

You just did XD Lol

People in this very thread took me as a feminazi for loudly complaining about crazy irrespective arguments of some guy(s)
But I'm not even a feminist... I haven't even read Bavoir's work, pls ppl gimme a chance :v

Well, if the gist of the argument is this:

Someone: "Feminism is wrong/superfluous"
higs: "No, it's right/useful"

, then i would say i made a deduction and not an assumption.

 

[emmabobary]

Jhmmmm what makes a feminist feminist...
Do I have to be feminist in order to support feminist points? If I'm not I can't?
I always thought feminists were those females fighting to be treated as equal to men in a post Victorian -edwardian- era.
Again I really don't know much about feminism, but I know how I want to be treated, and I know I don't want anyone's rights to be violated, especially mine :v
Wait, I'll read higs posts

 

[kora]

i don't disagree with anything you said really. but if i read the subtext and context right, you're basically arguing that these gender roles are cultural constructs with no biological foundation. i'd like you to confirm or deny this.

no-one would claim that rating girls in high school specifically is an innate behavior. high schools are rather novel historic entities and i think this is common knowledge. however it's entirely plausible to argue that there is a biological basis for gender asymmetries perpetuated by cultural institutions. and if there is, the solution to any problem like this must be something else than education on a tabula rasa premise with the official goal of equal outcome. i see many people arguing that it's 100 % cultural, but i have never met a single person who claims that every gender role expression is hardwired.

male toddlers prefer mechanics, and female toddlers prefer humanoids. males are characterized by having vastly higher concentrations of the hormone that is the primary mediator of sex drive. there are real differences. it doesn't come down to what somebody once taught somebody. it's not just about "how we think". we are all creatures of instinct and denying that is intellectually unsound, analytically impotent, meaningless. it selectively ignores causality and complexity, succumbing entirely to the subjective agency bias.

none of this applies if my assumption about your impetus was incorrect.

in my view this is mostly about prejudice, prejudice is roughly proportional to scarcity, and the "solution" is simply the organic macro progress of human civilization. current feminism is a bit like throwing an inhalator to a drowning person. now i realize this may sound like fatalism, but it's rather a question of perspective and analytical leverage.

Oh I just saw I never answered this.

I am not denying obvious biological differences, I am saying these biological differences are blown out of proportion in the symbolic meaning they hold in the collective consciousness, which is limiting to many individuals.

perhaps females do,instinctively prefer dolls, perhaps males do prefer mechanical stuff. I would be interested to see a study and also to see how it avoids the possibility of a cultural bias, proving that this preference is indeed entirely biologically innate? In any case, it can't be that relevant to how we treat individuals, personally I liked Lego and animals as a kid, any barbie/doll given to me was forgotten in the corner or sometimes used as a destructive giant or evil mastermind . Toys are a modern thing too, and I would say brain plasticity is immense in any child and most will play with any toy you present them with. Ignoring this is far more limiting of complexity and causality of human nature than is ignoring the biologically inherent traits ( which we don't do anyway. If these things are inherent, and by essence deterministic we can't change them anyway, they will happen regardless.) In any case, The variation between individuals of either sex transcends the fixed dichotomy of gender, which can be viewed as a cage holding individual,potential back. Especially in the case that masculine traditionally is associated with power and feminine with passiveness. All insults meaning female/feminine mean weak, media fires these gendered messages at girls their whole lives. Just compare cartoon networks toy ads for boys with toy ads for girls, there is far more variation in one than the other. Girl toys are systematically about being pretty, cooking, taking care of babies, always pink and sparkly...Male toys are about adventure, building things, chemistry, science and come in many colors (except pink). There is no way this message and separation of the human race being divided into two entirely different personalities is healthy, it causes dissonance, and is probs limiting to males in many ways also, but more so to females because feminine usually means weak and passive. We are biological creatures but to be honest, our defining characteristic as a species is culture, plasticity and the ability to determine ourselves.

To be honest the discussion on feminism in our culture seems to have exploded in the media in the past year, I expect whatever problems I perceive will be solved within the next fifteen/twenty years. (Except objectification perhaps, I agree with tanhauser) So I may as well shut up now. I was interested in discussing it on here as I felt very concerned and affected by it, I have seen the spectrum of perspectives now, and my mind is somewhat cleared of the topic, or has organized my position on it. I will probably not post about it again. (Except in direct response to anyone ofc)

 

[Seteleechete]

You know an interesting thing I heard at a book convention a while ago. " A new trend in literature are strong female assassin."

* I smile in approval and nod at that theory as I like the concept*

Then she continues " this clearly shows how feminity is being pushed aside with the authors choosing to write about masculine females, males in female bodies"

* I stare forward somewhat stunned*

" We need to stop this masculinization of females in literature as this is a rewrite of males in female shape and write about feminine female main characters instead."



I mean seriously first the complaint is about females being weak and when yon try the opposite the complaint becomes "to masculine".



/random rant

 

[kora]

^ Endless contradictions on this subject huh.

It gets tiresome.

 

[emmabobary]

Oh I just saw I never answered this.

I am not denying obvious biological differences, I am saying these biological differences are blown out of proportion in the symbolic meaning they hold in the collective consciousness, which is limiting to many individuals.

perhaps females do,instinctively prefer dolls, perhaps males do prefer mechanical stuff. I would be interested to see a study and also to see how it avoids the possibility of a cultural bias, proving that this preference is indeed entirely biologically innate? In any case, it can't be that relevant to how we treat individuals, personally I liked Lego and animals as a kid, any barbie/doll given to me was forgotten in the corner or sometimes used as a destructive giant or evil mastermind . Toys are a modern thing too, and I would say brain plasticity is immense in any child and most will play with any toy you present them with. Ignoring this is far more limiting of complexity and causality of human nature than is ignoring the biologically inherent traits ( which we don't do anyway. If these things are inherent, and by essence deterministic we can't change them anyway, they will happen regardless.) In any case, The variation between individuals of either sex transcends the fixed dichotomy of gender, which can be viewed as a cage holding individual,potential back. Especially in the case that masculine traditionally is associated with power and feminine with passiveness. All insults meaning female/feminine mean weak, media fires these gendered messages at girls their whole lives. Just compare cartoon networks toy ads for boys with toy ads for girls, there is far more variation in one than the other. Girl toys are systematically about being pretty, cooking, taking care of babies, always pink and sparkly...Male toys are about adventure, building things, chemistry, science and come in many colors (except pink). There is no way this message and separation of the human race being divided into two entirely different personalities is healthy, it causes dissonance, and is probs limiting to males in many ways also, but more so to females because feminine usually means weak and passive. We are biological creatures but to be honest, our defining characteristic as a species is culture, plasticity and the ability to determine ourselves.

To be honest the discussion on feminism in our culture seems to have exploded in the media in the past year, I expect whatever problems I perceive will be solved within the next fifteen/twenty years. (Except objectification perhaps, I agree with tanhauser) So I may as well shut up now. I was interested in discussing it on here as I felt very concerned and affected by it, I have seen the spectrum of perspectives now, and my mind is somewhat cleared of the topic, or has organized my position on it. I will probably not post about it again. (Except in direct response to anyone ofc)

Nice!
I would like to add: if anyway, males and females are biologically predisposed to have different traits, why do we have to think these features as immovable, these features didn't pop up one day at the beggining of time and stayed static till now, and will be till the end of times. They appeared responding to evolutionary requirements. The human cub develops more late than the other mammals, so nurturing mothers and protector fathers were needed in order to preserve the species. I remember a thread from yellow about moral actually present in 3 months babies, let's not say morals, let's say a sophisticated system of judge. So maybe there's this overlapping of causes for the difference of genders confusing people, and maybe there's no reason to take sides so radically, neither to excuse retrograde behaviors on a poor understanding of contemporary social processes.
I don't know, I did find the idea really interesting.
I'll tty to develop it later.

 

[Brontosaurie]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_U9tVp130E

Genius.

 

[PaulMaster]

If feminism is a political movement I'm against it completely. If its a frame of mind held by individuals that all people ought to be treated fairly, then I'm for it. In today's world - well, in the westernized world - feminism has gotten pretty ugly and stupid. There are ideas that have branched out of the original concept that seem to get more and more absurd every year. Further, the feminists (who are responsible for perpetuating the ideas) are getting less and less interesting and pleasant to interact with.

Edit: the video above is exactly what I'm talking about. I stopped watching at 0:56. F that noise. Its hard to believe that anyone could actually believe this stuff. Males designed TP specifically as a power play over females? Whatever, man.

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

Edit: the video above is exactly what I'm talking about. I stopped watching at 0:56. F that noise. Its hard to believe that anyone could actually believe this stuff. Males designed TP specifically as a power play over females? Whatever, man.

B-but it's a parody mkay? She's mocking feminism actually, shouldn't you be overjoyed that she is against it same as you?

 

[PaulMaster]

B-but it's a parody mkay? She's mocking feminism actually, shouldn't you be overjoyed that she is against it same as you?

I dont know about overjoyed, but I'm relieved it hasnt gotten to that point in reality.





Yet.

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

It's a media bubble, the kind of feminism you're afraid of is mostly a non-issue outside of the states and a few countries, even there it's seen as a big deal only because of the controversy and excess polarity around it.

People talk about it, pick sides, imagine what the other side does and paint them as a giant glaring threat to their freedom or happiness.

Truth is, it's no different from any other controversial social issue from the past, the success of feminism is the proof of women's equality, if they weren't strong enough, they wouldn't be able to achieve equal rights and treatment.

If future holds some kind of "subjugation" of males, it would only show that women currently have superior qualities, being able to put men in that place despite opposition.

Whatever happens will be much more moderate, but it will be an honest answer to the question and demands that are relevant for this topic. If women deserve equality, they will eventually earn it.

Men can act like losers and oppose it, or look forward to it as an opportunity of having an even stronger and independent society based on individual merit.

 

[PaulMaster]

Men can act like losers and oppose it, or look forward to it as an opportunity of having an even stronger and independent society based on individual merit.

Or carry on as usual not worrying one bit about the passive aggressiveness of other people.

 

[Sinny91]

Spoiler

KILL ZE MEN!!

Spoiler

Jokee

 

[Feather]

My concern with feminism is that it invest focus non-optimally or can avert to stigma.

If we start with the main moral issue behind this idea, I presume it is:
"Inferior view of women leading to lack of rights and opportunities."

Many of the issue raised by feminism show statistics that show an apparent lack of equality. But if that lack of equality does not stem from an "inferior view of woman" than that issue exist independent of woman.

For example:

The biggest issue in modern feminism according to a Google search is
:: Domestic Labor Division::

How much of that spread in income between males and female is due to factors not stemming from an inferior view of women. Probably nearly all of it.

In engineering the difference between male and female can be explained by the years of experience - as men tend to have higher years of experience before getting degree. Men and women of the same years of experience have the identical pay according to studies.

Also consider this: As a masters engineer with 6 years of experience the secretaries at my job probably make double what I make - because they are friends and close to the owner. Depending on how close you are with the owner is probably the biggest impact of pay male or female. If there are more males in the labor force due to the past the result is that more owners and people that hire are males. We can have more males as owners than females mutually exclusive to any inferior views of woman.

As a female how many women are you close to compared to men?
As a male how many men are you close to compared to women?

I think if you plotted the results of a census like this it would show that males tend to have more friends that are male and are more likely to hire males to important positions. AND in any industry where woman dominate the ownership they are more likely to hire women to important positions.

In some industries like being a men's NBA coach there is very few female coaches - the Spurs have a female coach who could be the first female head coach in the NBA in a few years once Pop retires.

The issue facing females in industries like this is "uncertainty" not some view that woman are a lower life form. That uncertainty is natural as the question is about how will players who have been coached by men their entire life respond to a female coach who's approach is likely to be different than men's.

If you run a dispatch for 911 in Texas and you get an application from a guy from Iceland there is uncertainty that exist. It takes building close relationships to reduce uncertainty.

Lastly on this issue, what if we compared the statistics of being overweight or height into pay scales! How does that compare to "woman are inferior" stemmed inequality? In engineering it appears just appearance has a bigger impact than gender.

My concern is that the biggest issue in feminism is not investigated properly and fairly and rationally. Do these statistics that get pulled take into account these factors that affect the inequality that are independent of gender? And do these people looking at the statistics understand "Levy-Stable" distributions leading to false predictability of wildly random components of statistics?

It appears that ignorance and vehement combine in feminism to produce a stigma that is worse than the oppression they think is suppressing them.

::::
::::
::::

The above was to show that unequal statistics does not directly imply women dependent prejudice. Yet those statistics is being used to actually create man dependent prejudice {opinions not based in reason} in feminism!

The below is about how can we address that women dependent prejudice portion that is in the unequal statistics.

Firstly, the primary goal should be to “reduce” prejudice as the central cause. The secondary goal should be to defend the most critical aspects that are the focus of prejudice.

This is important – Imagine a person builds a giant machine with chainsaw blades that he lets loose and it rooms sporadically through the city destroying stuff. First you should figure out how to weaken the motor of the machine because you can only control what it destroys for so long. If you see it going for a park and you try to protect the park it then will grind its way somewhere else. As you weaken the motor you should also use the rest of the resources to neutralize the critical damage it causes as a secondary measure.

{Aside}
Take all the worst men in the world that have prejudice and that think women are inferior – now if suddenly women had more social power and the roles were flipped – who do you think would be leading the cause of the injustice and inequality to man? Probably all those men who hate women. That is a flawed aspect of any “ism”. How can any reduction of prejudice be brought on by a grouping that inevitably will consist of these worst men/women celebrating their prejudice?

Getting to the point:
1. Striving for Moral justice … only pertaining… to females is a flawed initial premise because once the secondary focus or aspect of injustice is placed before the primary goal it will have dysfunctional characteristics. The optimal approach is for complete moral justice that a group specializes in defending female related aspects.


2. Women to women prejudice is by far the biggest issue women face. If women ‘feels’ inferior to how another women looks – that is because of the values and prejudice between women. Romance novels, Soap operas, Magazines, Fashion etc. That is produced by women and women are interested in it, buy it, watch it, talk about it, invest in it, obsess in it and feel misery from it. It is a judgment or comparison one women makes between another women. No man is responsible for what a women values. If all the men in the world died – ego would still exist.

This ego of man and women both strives for superiority and due to our genetic agree-ance of sexual attraction we get complicatedly wrapped up. Man uses his ego to define his superficial needs and how he views women. Women with ego judges other women and them self’s to satisfy their needs based on how they view men.

Woman’s ego is under their control to defeat it with no help or change from man. Changes from man can help that process of woman defeating their ego easier.

Ego’s main trick is to create others to blame for the self’s problems.

Dam I had to rush through this because I have to go take a mandolin, croquet and beer to celebration.

This is criticism of feminism – where as I could just as easily could have wrote about advantages of it, most of those are typically already represented – I am all for letting women run everything.