What do you think about piracy?

[intpz]

If you don't mind, separately - about music piracy, movie piracy, game piracy, software piracy, OS piracy. I guess most of my interest is focused on game piracy, then goes software piracy. The rest is not as interesting to me, but I'd still like hearing your opinions.

 

[Cogwulf]

We are living in the information age yet copyright holders are stuck in the past. Unless they change it will be them who destroy the industry. I am all in favour of buying work to support content creators, but unfortunately the creators are rarely the owners. The copyright holders are not going to change willingly because the direction things are going in favours the creators.

I pirate music because if I didn't, then I wouldn't be able to listen to new music. In fact, if I didn't pirate music, I probably wouldn't have bought the albums I do own. Although now services such as spotify are appearing which mean I no longer have to do this.
I don't pirate software because there are free alternatives for almost everything. If I outgrow the limitations of the free versions, I'm willing to pay for the professional version. An example of this is that I've used open office for years, I recently purchased microsoft office because I needed the extra functionality in excel.

As for games, I'm not impatient so I don't mind waiting for games to show up in sales or in the bargain bin, and there are a few free-to-play games that are more than good enough to keep me occupied for a few hundred hours.

The current trend is towards self-publication which I am fully willing to support. Subscription based services like spotify and netflix are also a good thing, but many rights-holders are being too restrictive and demanding with the licencing agreements.

 

[Proletar]

I'm not saying that "information wants to be free", but that people want everything as cheap as possible.

This, combined with the fact that free ways of getting hold of culture is available, gives us piracy. It's the same thing as when the writing-press was invented, really. Now everyone could just copy the writings, and the value of a single copy would decrease, plus it made the monks work of writing off books unneccessary. Everyone got free/way cheaper books, and everyone of the established order was hating...

 

[Amagi82]

Piracy is largely the fault of the people bitching about it. If you make it annoying as fuck to use your product legally, people will pirate it, simple as that. If you make it easier to buy your product than it is to fire up the Pirate Bay and download it (read: Netflix), very few people will pirate it. I have zero care for the people who cry about it.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

Piracy is largely the fault of the people bitching about it. If you make it annoying as fuck to use your product legally, people will pirate it, simple as that. If you make it easier to buy your product that it is to fire up the Pirate Bay and download it (read: Netflix), very few people will pirate it. I have zero care for the people who cry about it.

You know this is a pretty immature point of view. Piracy is the fault of pirates and facilitators. Businesses should take in to account customer-friendly presentations and arrangements, if they want to keep clientele and beat competitors, but that is a poor excuse for justifying piracy. That is one of the major reasons why it happens but still it's not a valid excuse. Piracy exists beyond purchase accessibility, it happens due to matters of laziness, frugality, availability, or an outright refusal to pay for digital merchandise.

 

[Amagi82]

You know this is a pretty immature point of view. Piracy is the fault of pirates and facilitators. Businesses should take in to account customer-friendly presentations and arrangements, if they want to keep clientele and beat competitors, but that is a poor excuse for justifying piracy. That is one of the major reasons why it happens but still it's not a valid excuse. Piracy exists beyond purchase accessibility, it happens due to matters of laziness, frugality, availability, or an outright refusal to pay for digital merchandise.

No, mine is the practical point of view. Combating piracy in traditional ways, through DRM, lawsuits, etc doesn't work. It makes the guy who buys the product legally put up with tons of annoying bullshit while the pirate just fires it up and it works. Piracy has always and will probably always be several steps ahead of lawmakers, and the laws they pass aren't enforceable anyway. The practical, intelligent way of handling this is to make legally-purchased software/movies/etc so unbelievably easy to use/watch and reasonably-priced that piracy is complicated and annoying by comparison.

As an example: I purchased Mass Effect 3 legally, using the Origin downloader. The downloader failed to download and made me restart from scratch several times, and it took over a full week for the downloader to successfully download and install the game. Then, when I fire it up, I had to wait 60+ seconds extra every time I used the game for it to log on and do... whatever it is it does, before I could get to the main screen of the game. Additionally, I was harassed and annoyed by a bunch of Origin spam. Then, when I attempted to play offline (I have it on a laptop, and work as a truck driver, and internet access is not always possible), I COULD NOT PLAY THE FUCKING SINGLE-PLAYER GAME WITHOUT INTERNET ACCESS!. Basically, the whole process was a bloody nightmare, and games have come to the point where if you want the game to work reliably, you have to pirate it. What I'll do from now on, is purchase a copy of the game online and then just pirate bay the damn thing, so it works.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

No, mine is the practical point of view. Combating piracy in traditional ways, through DRM, lawsuits, etc doesn't work. It makes the guy who buys the product legally put up with tons of annoying bullshit while the pirate just fires it up and it works. Piracy has always and will probably always be several steps ahead of lawmakers, and the laws they pass aren't enforceable anyway. The practical, intelligent way of handling this is to make legally-purchased software/movies/etc so unbelievably easy to use/watch and reasonably-priced that piracy is complicated and annoying by comparison.

As an example: I purchased Mass Effect 3 legally, using the Origin downloader. The downloader failed to download and made me restart from scratch several times, and it took over a full week for the downloader to successfully download and install the game. Then, when I fire it up, I had to wait 60+ seconds extra every time I used the game for it to log on and do... whatever it is it does, before I could get to the main screen of the game. Additionally, I was harassed and annoyed by a bunch of Origin spam. Then, when I attempted to play offline (I have it on a laptop, and work as a truck driver, and internet access is not always possible), I COULD NOT PLAY THE FUCKING SINGLE-PLAYER GAME WITHOUT INTERNET ACCESS!. Basically, the whole process was a bloody nightmare, and games have come to the point where if you want the game to work reliably, you have to pirate it. What I'll do from now on, is purchase a copy of the game online and then just pirate bay the damn thing, so it works.

Like I already said:

Businesses should take in to account customer-friendly presentations and arrangements, if they want to keep clientele and beat competitors, but that is a poor excuse for justifying piracy. That is one of the major reasons why it happens but still it's not a valid excuse.
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More immaturity and blameshifting. Digital piracy is gaining something you didn't have before and weren't authorized, personally nor legally, to possess. It doesn't matter if it's not traditional stealing.

 

[Cogwulf]

As an example: I purchased Mass Effect 3 legally, using the Origin downloader. The downloader failed to download and made me restart from scratch several times, and it took over a full week for the downloader to successfully download and install the game. Then, when I fire it up, I had to wait 60+ seconds extra every time I used the game for it to log on and do... whatever it is it does, before I could get to the main screen of the game. Additionally, I was harassed and annoyed by a bunch of Origin spam. Then, when I attempted to play offline (I have it on a laptop, and work as a truck driver, and internet access is not always possible), I COULD NOT PLAY THE FUCKING SINGLE-PLAYER GAME WITHOUT INTERNET ACCESS!. Basically, the whole process was a bloody nightmare, and games have come to the point where if you want the game to work reliably, you have to pirate it. What I'll do from now on, is purchase a copy of the game online and then just pirate bay the damn thing, so it works.

Personally I've boycotted EA entirely. I won't even give them the satisfaction of pirating their games.

Like I already said:

Businesses should take in to account customer-friendly presentations and arrangements, if they want to keep clientele and beat competitors, but that is a poor excuse for justifying piracy. That is one of the major reasons why it happens but still it's not a valid excuse.
​

More immaturity and blameshifting. Digital piracy is gaining something you didn't have before and weren't authorized, personally nor legally, to possess. It doesn't matter if it's not traditional stealing.

Instead of blaming people why not try and find solutions. No one thinks piracy is right but they do it anyway, yes some people are greedy or lazy and will always pirate, but the average member of the public wouldn't start spending any more money if pirating was stopped overnight. And furthermore, if people kept doing what the right-holders want them to do then things will never change and we will be stuck in the dark ages forever, it's immoral but change has to start somewhere. If the industries start doing things right, then in a decade or so piracy will be negligible and the people creating the work will still be rewarded for it.

 

[Latte]

When ideology for the way funding something "is supposed to be" stands in the way of efficiency in any part of a chain from development to utilization, something is wrong with our system for ensuring continued development, and alternatives must be considered with an open and rational mind.

Sidenote: Strong intellectual property proponents: What do you think about piracy in the case of people who are too poor to actually buy the stuff anyway? Consider the globalization of culture and how prices are usually based on quite a bit above western minimum wages for cultural works originating from there.

 

[MichiganJFrog]

music piracy

bad

movie piracy

bad

game piracy

bad

software piracy

bad

OS piracy

bad

 

[EyeSeeCold]

Instead of blaming people why not try and find solutions. No one thinks piracy is right but they do it anyway, yes some people are greedy or lazy and will always pirate, but the average member of the public wouldn't start spending any more money if pirating was stopped overnight. And furthermore, if people kept doing what the right-holders want them to do then things will never change and we will be stuck in the dark ages forever, it's immoral but change has to start somewhere. If the industries start doing things right, then in a decade or so piracy will be negligible and the people creating the work will still be rewarded for it.

I think the digital media industry will go through a rough development before anything will be solved, if that is even possible. Once people have begun to get used to free stuff at such convenience actually paying for things start to seem ridiculous. It would take some involvement from both sides to really reach a means that could work.

I have tried to think of solutions myself, but the only thing I could come up with was that access to software and media could be somehow included in internet subscriptions, but bundles tends to cause problems for those who have limited to no need for extra services.

 

[Amagi82]

Instead of blaming people why not try and find solutions. No one thinks piracy is right but they do it anyway, yes some people are greedy or lazy and will always pirate, but the average member of the public wouldn't start spending any more money if pirating was stopped overnight. And furthermore, if people kept doing what the right-holders want them to do then things will never change and we will be stuck in the dark ages forever, it's immoral but change has to start somewhere. If the industries start doing things right, then in a decade or so piracy will be negligible and the people creating the work will still be rewarded for it.

^ This.


Society is changing. The concept of money and the economic machine is slowly becoming obsolete. Businesses are terrified of this and fight it tooth and nail, but it's inevitable. As 3d printers become ubiquitous, and we can simply copy and download whatever product we wish, just the same as we can copy and download electronic media, we will reach a point where the whole concept of money becomes redundant and pointless. This is to be encouraged, not feared. It is for this reason that I actually consider piracy a good thing. It's the wave of the future.

 

[intpz]

Nanoprinters are decades away. And IF they will be created, I doubt that they will be available to the public. The only company who would get any profit would be 3D printer-creating company. ...insert a lot of theorization about the future and futuristic technology here...
---
The solution I came up with is actually no DRMs. DRMs get cracked anyway, and they cause issues for those who purchase the games, so why put them there?

On the other hand, if there would be no DRM, the game might be more widespreadly pirated. Any other solution causes inconvenience to the paying customers.

 

[Amagi82]

Nanoprinters are decades away. And IF they will be created, I doubt that they will be available to the public. The only company who would get any profit would be 3D printer-creating company. ...insert a lot of theorization about the future and futuristic technology here...

Basic 3d printing technology has been around for decades, and it's finally getting affordable for normal people. Sure they can't do everything (yet), but it's not hard to imagine what will happen to the world economy when suddenly a large percentage of plastic goods can simply be printed out by the end user. We're not inventing Star Trek replicators overnight- we don't need to to start reordering our society.

 

[intpz]

You can't print the "original" substances yet, you can only use specific materials.

 

[Amagi82]

You can't print the "original" substances yet, you can only use specific materials.

And?

 

[intpz]

I'm reinforcing my point, while neglecting yours...

 

[Amagi82]

Hokay, keep doing your thing, man!

 

[intpz]

Hokay, keep doing your thing, man!

You seem extremely immature. Through more than this thread. I refuse to communicate with you, unless there would be a real good reason to.

 

[Amagi82]

You seem extremely immature. Through more than this thread. I refuse to communicate with you, unless there would be a real good reason to.

... says the one refusing to acknowledge my points.

 

[Solitaire U.]

Part 1: What is piracy?

Image: Pirate DVDs from my collection, purchased from vendors at various municipal/open air markets in my city. These are not shoddy reproductions...they are exact copies of the originals, right down to the menus with all features intact and functional, and even the previews/advertisements. Ironically, the FBI anti-piracy warning is also intact. They cost 20 pesos (US$1.40) each, or 3 for 50 pesos (US$3.59).

There's a huge municipal market nearby with rows and rows of stalls, one after another, selling nothing but pirate movies, music and video games. This place is an amazing sight to behold. Stroll through it, see, smell, and touch all its substance, and Pirate Bay will be forever relegated to a far-away, abstract concept in your mind. It's like the corporatization of Piracy. The selection isn't just limited to popular releases either. There are vendors specializing in classic, horror, foreign, just like you'd find at any well stocked legitimate DVD shop. I found a Pirate copy here of Led Zeppelin on blueberry hill, a bootleg I paid a mint for on vinyl years ago in the US. If you know where to go, you can get pretty much anything that has been officially released burned to order as well. Awhile back I was on a 'Six Feet Under' kick. I found a vendor that was selling the Dexter seasons and asked him if he could get me the first season of Six Feet Under. He said, "If it's been released to DVD, I can get it. Come back next week." I came back a week later and he had Seasons 1-3. Paid 250 pesos.

I have no idea how this 'industry' functions, other than that I pay the paltry asking price and receive my product. There's definitely some hi-tech, highly organized structure working behind the scenes though. That's just blatantly obvious.

Apparently there are copyright laws on the books in Mexico, but they obviously aren't enforced. Why? I don't know. I think the ideology here goes something like this: "I paid 70 pesos to see Transformers 3 at Cineopolis (movie theater), then I paid 450 pesos to buy my kid the bitchen 18" Transformer action figure for his birthday. Then there's the nickel and dime stuff: the Transformers notebook for school, the Transformers book covers, the Transformers combination flashlight/key chain, and finally that Transformers rear-view mirror air freshener. As far as I'm concerned, the Transformers franchise should be supplying the god-damned movie that started it all for free. I'm already getting the feeling that I'm being fucked in the ass, so going to Sam's Club and paying 150 pesos for an original copy of the Transformers 3 DVD is like making me pay extra for the vaseline. I'm willing to bend over, but only so far."

Personally, I don't give a shit about toys and franchised merchandise, but I'd wager I'm in the vast minority to that end. The simple truth is that, if I hadn't been able to buy Pirates of the Caribbean for 20 pesos, I'd have never seen the movie. There is no way I'd pay 15 bucks for the privilege of 'legitimately owning it on DVD' in the US or anywhere else. If that's the going rate for an hour and a half of entertainment, then it's way out of whack with the going rate for Internet access, cable, or a good 10+ hour-long video game.

Hence, I think the state of media Piracy in Mexico is probably a pretty accurate representation of the actual monetary value of the products being pirated.

 

[Solitaire U.]

This and above...waste of time.

 

[lungs]

i enjoy it. especially the music and movies types.

 

[RadicalDreamer31]

Piracy is largely the fault of the people bitching about it. If you make it annoying as fuck to use your product legally, people will pirate it, simple as that. If you make it easier to buy your product than it is to fire up the Pirate Bay and download it (read: Netflix), very few people will pirate it. I have zero care for the people who cry about it.

"In general, we think there is a fundamental misconception about piracy. Piracy is almost always a service problem and not a pricing problem. For example, if a pirate offers a product anywhere in the world, 24 x 7, purchasable from the convenience of your personal computer, and the legal provider says the product is region-locked, will come to your country 3 months after the U.S. release, and can only be purchased at a brick and mortar store, then the pirate's service is more valuable. Most DRM solutions diminish the value of the product by either directly restricting a customers use or by creating uncertainty." -Gabe Newell, some Value dude.

 

[A22]

I think intellectual property should be extinguished, yet I don't think that would work on a capitalist society. Some protectionism is needed, but piracy is almost always the seller's fault. It happens for many reasons:

# People can't afford/find the product, so they download it / buy it from a cheaper source.
e.g. Some shows only broadcast in my country months or even years after the US release. I don't wait, I download.
e.g. I wanted to buy a chemistry book (preferably .pdf) before my class started, but I didn't find a pay-n-download option nor was it available in bookstores in my city and the only website selling it was Amazon.com, which would deliver in maybe more than a month. I downloaded it from kickasstorrents in a few minutes.
e.g. A friend of mine can't afford to buy movies at the price they are sold in my country, so he buys from the streets.

# It's easier/better to get the pirated/shared product.
e.g. It's easier for me to download a movie than to rent it, I don't have to leave home, there is no portable media, no ads... - I haven't heard of a pay-n-download service available here yet.

# People just don't care.
e.g. Someone has money to buy he's favorite CD for a low price on iTunes but downloads it instead.

What I do:

# Game/Software piracy:

I do not download and sell nor buy from pirate sellers. I only download shared content.

I support small developers by donating or buying their products, but I do not buy absurdly expansive software, like Fraps, which costs $37 and just records your screen. In those cases I look for free alternatives or download the pirate version. They could use ads or whatever to cheap their products down.

I buy games from companies who respect the buyer by not pushing DLC/charging for updates nor have a shitty customer support service, but only when there are offers, 'cause games are freaking expensive - like Ubisoft, great company. EA on the other hand treats you like shit, so I don't buy anything from them. I download some of their games (pirate) but I do not get all the benefits from it (online multiplayer). (Side note: I bought BF3 recently, but only then I noticed how shitty their services are.)

# Book piracy:

Downloading a book is like renting it from the library, but easier - and you can get books that your library doesn't have. I bought only a few books in my life, most (~70%) of the books I read I rented from the local library. If there are books available (for download or not) at a cheap price (it should be cheap) and I know the author I'll buy them. Otherwise I'll rent/download it.

# Movie piracy:

I go to the theaters often, but I download movies that aren't on the cinema anymore. If I like it a lot, I tell people it's a good movie and may buy some products of the franchise if it still exists. The movie industry is not shutting down because of piracy, check the 1st week sales of any recent movie.

# Music piracy:

I download it all. If I like the band, I buy their products (DVDs, T-Shirts...) and go to their concerts. I think there are many alternatives for making money with your music - putting it on the radio, TV, advertising, selling your image, products of your band, doing tours, etc... I find it hard to believe a band selling's is based on CD selling.

# OS piracy:

I'd use Ubuntu if all the games I play were available on it. I buy the computer with Windows installed, here you can't know if it is original or not unless you ask the seller - which probably won't know either.

 

[Amagi82]

A couple more points: I care about the environment, and piracy is vastly less polluting than buying physical products. For CDs or DVDs, why would I pay more to have a physical copy of something that's annoying to use (must find it, put it in the drive, and wait for notices, announcements, and previews to play it, and fill up my house/car with more unnecessary, technologically obsolete bullshit), rather than just pointing and clicking on my hard drive.


Since we're covering our opinions on each type of piracy now, I'll post my thoughs:

# Game/Software Piracy

I purchase from small developers that ask a reasonable price for their games (Minecraft, Kerbal Space Program, etc). I purchase from large companies that produce a stellar product they've obviously poured their souls into (Dragon Age, Portal, Skyrim, etc), though my new policy is to purchase them legally then download them off the Pirate Bay so the fucking things will work without the annoying DRM. I also don't purchase downloadable bonus content for $60 games. Fuck you. For games I feel like trying out, and fear may be shitty, I pirate them, and if I like them, I buy them.

# Book Piracy

I actually purchase books legally nowadays, but primarily the Kindle version, and only if it's priced reasonably. This is especially true for authors I respect. I often start by borrowing a book, or pirating a PDF of it, but if it's good, I'll pay the author. I avoid supporting publishing companies whenever possible, because they're fucking useless and obsolete.

# Movie Piracy

I go to the theatre occasionally, and I have a Netflix account. If I can't get it off Netflix, it's getting pirated. I refuse to buy DVDs- they're annoying, wasteful, and 100% obsolete.

# Music piracy

I don't listen to much music, but I download 100% of what songs I have. I refuse to support record companies, and want to do whatever in my power to screw over the RIAA, because they're douchey.

# OS piracy

$50-60 is my absolute limit on software purchases. If you're not selling it for less than that, you're a jackass and deserve to have your software pirated. $150 for a piece of software is hilarious. I actually purchase legal copies for OS's at the moment, because my wife's mother works for Microsoft and gets us crazy discounts (though usually a computer simply comes with them installed).

 

[Solitaire U.]

I care about the environment, and piracy is vastly less polluting than buying physical products. For CDs or DVDs, why would I pay more to have a physical copy of something that's annoying to use (must find it, put it in the drive, and wait for notices, announcements, and previews to play it, and fill up my house/car with more unnecessary, technologically obsolete bullshit), rather than just pointing and clicking on my hard drive.

So you're green. Your entire life is on HD...Yay for you! Now when your hard drive takes a shit, your entire life is fucked.

All these self-justifications masquerading as substance...you're playing right into Big Brother's hand, lil' brother.

 

[Cogwulf]

I think intellectual property should be extinguished, yet I don't think that would work on a capitalist society. Some protectionism is needed, but piracy is almost always the seller's fault. It happens for many reasons:

I disagree entirely. The concept of intellectual property is the foundation of the entire creative industry. The problem however, is with copyright, and especially the ability to sell or licence that right to others. My view is that the entire system should be royalty based, with the creators and the creators only being allowed to earn money. There are just some problems with details such as how do you pay cameramen and all the other minor roles involved.


My vision for the future of film making (and which would apply to anything else such as software/games etc) is that when a writer or group of writers wants to make a movie, they form a co-operative which is registered with an independant body in a similar way that businesses are registered now. The co-operative is responsible for taking money and distributing it to all involved in the production. Actors and staff are paid wages during production, and are then awarded a number of "shares" which is proportional to the importance of their role, this gives them a proportional share of all the takings that film takes after release. The initial funding can come from third parties who are given different shares which expire after a set amount of money is earned by the holder. Royalties would be negotiable, but the co-operative can not place any restrictions on how or where it is sold (with a few basic exceptions such as a film being limited to cinemas for an initial period)
Please poke holes in my idea.

So you're green. Your entire life is on HD...Yay for you! Now when your hard drive takes a shit, your entire life is fucked.

All these self-justifications masquerading as substance...you're playing right into Big Brother's hand, lil' brother.

Have you ever heard of back-ups?

 

[The Gopher]

One of the more amusing threads for a while... not sure what that says about the current quality but... (sorry I literaly have no more to say and probably shouldn't post this)

 

[Cogwulf]

One of the more amusing threads for a while... not sure what that says about the current quality but... (sorry I literaly have no more to say and probably shouldn't post this)

Most peoples views on this are uniquely polarised, everyone seems to be either stuck at "pirates are evil" or "corporations are evil"

 

[EyeSeeCold]

Sidenote: Strong intellectual property proponents: What do you think about piracy in the case of people who are too poor to actually buy the stuff anyway? Consider the globalization of culture and how prices are usually based on quite a bit above western minimum wages for cultural works originating from there.

I'm not necessarily a proponent of anything, but I'm pretty sure the commercial / legal response is that if they can't afford it then they don't deserve it, that there is no inherent right to these products(I suppose unless they are a legal necessity, such as for educational purposes). Your prompt is more an issue of capitalism than piracy though.

I'm pretty skeptical of rationalizing piracy(not saying I'm against piracy itself however, have you seen my music library?). The only thing that could come close to compelling is exposure, perhaps availability.

There is no more efficient way to increase exposure than fluid distribution(word of mouth, filesharing, bootlegging, borrowing, public demonstrations(e.g. advertisement, radio, DJs) etc). Exposure could lead to, though not always, brand loyalty, where for example, you have people attending concerts and gigs for prices that far outweigh what was pirated or people choosing to upgrade to premium services after using pirated software.

As for availability, I personally hold that when (mainly material) products become so obscure and scarce that their existence is on the brink of extinction, copyright and royalties become insignificant and should be unenforceable. Digital reproduction detracts from material products' worth and legend status due to material obscurity and scarcity, but such obstinacy of the law is ignorant of the information age, nowadays it's about mass exposure, mass availability, and mass accumulation.

 

[The Gopher]

Most peoples views on this are uniquely polarised, everyone seems to be either stuck at "pirates are evil" or "corporations are evil"

Yeah exactly my point, people seem quite imovable on this topic.

 

[Latte]

Your prompt is more an issue of capitalism than piracy though.

I don't see why Intellectual Property should be regarded as a necessary component of a capitalist system.

Just like with government funded police, national healthcare, unemployment benefits, minimum wage, national roads, or the idea of physical crime and courts around it, fiat currency and central banking, there can be capitalism without it.
They can all be removed and we could still have a capitalistic system. There are capitalist nations out there that have few of those. Not to say they are much successful.

If one part of a system is changed/removed, a reorganization occurs (it being entirely fluid or having some direction/framework layed down from above). In some cases it can mean disaster, in others successful reorganization occurs.

The main issue should be if successful reorganization of how we fund innovation can occur in a post- intellectual property capitalistic society.

I don't see why people want to make this into a moral or ethical issue. Clearly, if we manage to continue innovating without intellectual property, it is better for humanity, as inventions and culture become accessible for everyone to modify and utilize. It is a form of wealth that we can copy without material restraint. It is sad that it is now restricted, and we put a lot of wealth into restricting it through law-related fees/work, inefficient distribution models, police expenses, patenting processes and other things.

 

[Amagi82]

There is no more efficient way to increase exposure than fluid distribution(word of mouth, filesharing, bootlegging, borrowing, public demonstrations(e.g. advertisement, radio, DJs) etc). Exposure could lead to, though not always, brand loyalty, where for example, you have people attending concerts and gigs for prices that far outweigh what was pirated or people choosing to upgrade to premium services after using pirated software.

Related:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Qkyt1wXNlI

 

[Solitaire U.]

Have you ever heard of back-ups?

Yeah. I've also heard of house fires, earthquakes, and lightning strikes, not to mention the most likely of them all; theft.

...

 

[intpz]

How often does that happen? (relating to the last post)

 

[Amagi82]

In Mexico, probably fairly often. Here in Michigan, it's pretty damn rare.

 

[Cogwulf]

Yeah. I've also heard of house fires, earthquakes, and lightning strikes, not to mention the most likely of them all; theft.

...

For anything you can't simply download again, online storage space is dirt cheap. If that isn't an option, you can get fire-proof safes for not much more than a couple of hard-drives, and every house should have one anyway. Or if you have a willing friend or relative, set up a NAS device in their house.

But to go back to your original point, what if all your DVDs and all your books were lost in a house fire, what would you do then? You can't back them up and download them again. To suggest that having everything you own on a hard drive is more vulnerable is absolutely ludicrous, it's exactly the opposite if you know what you're doing.
I also don't get your big brother reference, are you implying that living off a hard drive makes it easy for people to track you? Again, if you know what you're doing the opposite it more true.

 

[Solitaire U.]

I'm implying that living off a hard drive is an unrealistic concept. I'm also implying that above poster's idea of Piracy as a 'green' environmentally friendly alternative to the avoidance of copyright infringement is...pure bullshit.

Prior to that, I also rather strongly implied that there's a fuck of a lot more to Piracy than downloading shit off Pirate Bay.

Stuff is stuff...whether it's physical or electronic it's all flammable, stealable, and otherwise destroyable.

Big Brother: aka 'Save the Planet aka 'Environmentally Sound' aka a political slogan, and totally unrelated to Piracy, as the vast majority of items mentioned can be legitimately purchased as down-loadable content.

It's like saying, if I steal everything, less money will need to be printed = less trees murdered and less water contamination from green ink runoff.

 

[Cogwulf]

I'm implying that living off a hard drive is an unrealistic concept.

And I have provided reasons why it is not.

I'm also implying that above poster's idea of Piracy as a 'green' environmentally friendly alternative to the avoidance of copyright infringement is...pure bullshit.

You may be implying it but you haven't gave any good reasons why. Also your line of argument seems to be against digital downloads in general, not just illegal ones.

Prior to that, I also rather strongly implied that there's a fuck of a lot more to Piracy than downloading shit off Pirate Bay.

The piracy you described is arguably far worse than downloading.

Stuff is stuff...whether it's physical or electronic it's all flammable, stealable, and otherwise destroyable.

The difference is that when you buy physical stuff you have to pay for it again if it's destroyed.

Big Brother: aka 'Save the Planet aka 'Environmentally Sound' aka a political slogan.

Whether you are a skeptic or not, there isn't really much point shipping stuff halfway around the world if you don't need to.

 

[Solitaire U.]

Well alright then Cogwulf...keep telling yourself that you don't pay 50 bucks a month for Internet access, (you probably pay more though) and that everything you dl legally or illegally is 'free'. Then keep believing it won't take you months of constant searching/downloading to reacquire 900 gigs of lost content, assuming you can find, let alone remember, everything that was lost. If all your computer hardware was lost/stolen tomorrow, you'd shrug it off and say "Ah, no big deal, everything is recoverable." right? Bullshit...you'd be fucking devastated, as would I.

I never wagered an opinion for or against anything. Since I left out that little part, I'll say that I don't give a shit whose pocket my entertainment budget goes into. Cablemas, the guy in stall 567...it has to go into somebody's, so the guy that's got it cheap and right now gets my money.

Perhaps it's important to keep in perspective that everything we're talking about here; movies, music, games, ebooks, software, is pure entertainment. The occasional chemistry textbook excepted of course. At the end of the day, all that electronically pirated shit is essentially worthless.

I cried when Katz forum went offline. I kicked my desk when Megaupload got buried. So It's nice to have options. I can either download it or go buy it off the street. If I buy off the street, I can trade it back to the same guy for more shit, or even sell it to someone else if I'm so inclined. Do you have that option in England? Are there 'retail outlets' like this in the US? If your access to (pirated) media is limited to dl'able content, you only see one side of the equation. What then, is the basis of YOUR argument?

 

[Cogwulf]

Well alright then Cogwulf...keep telling yourself that you don't pay 50 bucks a month for Internet access, (you probably pay more though) and that everything you dl legally or illegally is 'free'.

I never said anything of the sort. Either way it is an atrocious argument because at the end of the day everyone is going to be paying the same for an internet connection whether they're downloading or not.

Then keep believing it won't take you months of constant searching/downloading to reacquire 900 gigs of lost content, assuming you can find, let alone remember, everything that was lost. If all your computer hardware was lost/stolen tomorrow, you'd shrug it off and say "Ah, no big deal, everything is recoverable." right? Bullshit...you'd be fucking devastated, as would I.

Have you actually read anything I've said? Everything that I would be bothered about losing is backed up in multiple locations, so no it will not take me months of constant searching/downloading.

What if your house burnt down tomorrow and you lost 100+ DVDs and your entire collections of CDs? Even if you're only paying 50 pesos for each, that's still far worse than just having to download them all again.

So It's nice to have options. I can either download it or go buy it off the street. If I buy off the street, I can trade it back to the same guy for more shit, or even sell it to someone else if I'm so inclined. Do you have that option in England? Are there 'retail outlets' like this in the US? If your access to (pirated) media is limited to dl'able content, you only see one side of the equation. What then, is the basis of YOUR argument?

They exist, but that has nothing to do with my argument, you just went on a completely baseless and nonsensical tirade against digital media. I'm just trying to point out some facts.

 

[Solitaire U.]

Actually, 20 pesos each, (or 3 for 50). The DVDs aren't really that important to me though. What is important to me are things like my original Photoshop CS6 discs (have yet to find an unbroken CS6 torrent, had to bite the bullet and buy an original factory sealed copy in the same market where I get the DVD's for the ridiculously high price of 950 pesos). That's another little fine point about pirate media we haven't really touched on...functionality, or rather lack thereof. For example, how many broken pirate game/software torrents have you wasted time dling?

My aim isn't to post an argument for or against. Piracy exists so the majority of us are obviously going to take advantage, in whatever form we can get our hands on most easily. Opinions are like assholes...everyone has one. I was kind of more interested in discussing some of the concrete realities, a mistake I often make when I'm posting here, where concrete realities are apparently things to be feared. My bad.

So what do you suggest? I already have all my teaching stuff and most of my vid/music files backed up on a 720 gb Kingston flashdrive. I've also got the RARs/7zs for everything I've downloaded on various other smaller capacity flashes. Almost everything I have hard copies of is expendable, since the investment is small and it's easily replaced. Problem is that all these flash drives are sitting on top of my computer at present. I already know that I should take the flashdrives to my mother's house and throw them in her fire safe...working on it.

But what do I do about things like photoshop. If someone rips off my comp and the CS6 discs, I'm fucked. Your point is taken...you have a solution for this dilemma, so kindly share it with me. What do I need to do to have a working backup of my entire HD that I can a) easily back up on a regular basis as the content of my current HD expands, b) jam into a new computer and be up and running again from the same point I was at when I lost my current HD, without having to re-download anything? (Online storage space isn't an option for me.)

thx

 

[nexion]

Piracy results in loss of money, but mostly for large corporations- the RIAA, MPAA, Microsoft, etc. Since music piracy seems to be the most common (and the type I indulge in most), I will say that artists get barely any money for their work as long as they are tied to a record label. Most of their profits come from live shows and merch. And personally, if I were to ever put out music or software independently, I would care less whether people "pirate" it or not because I would make it free or open source anyway. So there.

Also, if I may repost something which Amagi82 has already posted:

Spoiler

Do copyright laws really make much sense in the first place?

"In general, we think there is a fundamental misconception about piracy. Piracy is almost always a service problem and not a pricing problem. For example, if a pirate offers a product anywhere in the world, 24 x 7, purchasable from the convenience of your personal computer, and the legal provider says the product is region-locked, will come to your country 3 months after the U.S. release, and can only be purchased at a brick and mortar store, then the pirate's service is more valuable. Most DRM solutions diminish the value of the product by either directly restricting a customers use or by creating uncertainty." -Gabe Newell, some Value dude.

Best quote. Also, it's "Valve." That company is a beacon of light in an otherwise dark industry that cares solely for money and sales and keeping the bloodsucking pirates at bay with increasingly cumbersome and annoying DRM and other bullshit.

Then keep believing it won't take you months of constant searching/downloading to reacquire 900 gigs of lost content, assuming you can find, let alone remember, everything that was lost.

It's called having multiple hard drives and back ups of shit on each hard drive.

You anti-piracy people are so funny.

 

[Cogwulf]

Actually, 20 pesos each, (or 3 for 50). The DVDs aren't really that important to me though. What is important to me are things like my original Photoshop CS6 discs (have yet to find an unbroken CS6 torrent, had to bite the bullet and buy an original factory sealed copy in the same market where I get the DVD's for the ridiculously high price of 950 pesos). That's another little fine point about pirate media we haven't really touched on...functionality, or rather lack thereof. For example, how many broken pirate game/software torrents have you wasted time dling?

The problem with games and software tends not to be the software itself, but the cracks or keygens needed to get them to work. They can usually be downloaded separately to the main program, but it's best to ask around and find what's working at the present moment in time. I'm not very experienced in the area though.

But what do I do about things like photoshop. If someone rips off my comp and the CS6 discs, I'm fucked. Your point is taken...you have a solution for this dilemma, so kindly share it with me. What do I need to do to have a working backup of my entire HD that I can a) easily back up on a regular basis as the content of my current HD expands, b) jam into a new computer and be up and running again from the same point I was at when I lost my current HD, without having to re-download anything? (Online storage space isn't an option for me.)

The disk needs to be "cloned" which creates an identical copy on another hard drive. The main hard drive manufacturers produce software to do this, and there are many third party options as well. There are plenty of tutorials about how to do this. The only problem is that it can be a bit of a hassle because the software needs to reboot the system to run.
The best way to do it is to partition your drive so that windows and programs are all installed on one partition and everything else is on another. This means that you can clone the part of your drive with windows, photoshop and all your other programs, then only repeat it once or twice a year or whenever you install new software. Then all your other content like films or music can be backed up as you would normally.
Most cloning software handles partitioning too. It's easiest to set up with a new install of windows.

 

[Solitaire U.]

Cogwolf: Looking into this, thx.

You anti-piracy people are so funny.

You idiots that read 1 segment of 1 post and then jump to your ill-conceived conclusions are even funnier.

 

[nexion]

The disk needs to be "cloned" which creates an identical copy on another hard drive. The main hard drive manufacturers produce software to do this, and there are many third party options as well. There are plenty of tutorials about how to do this. The only problem is that it can be a bit of a hassle because the software needs to reboot the system to run.
The best way to do it is to partition your drive so that windows and programs are all installed on one partition and everything else is on another. This means that you can clone the part of your drive with windows, photoshop and all your other programs, then only repeat it once or twice a year or whenever you install new software. Then all your other content like films or music can be backed up as you would normally.
Most cloning software handles partitioning too. It's easiest to set up with a new install of windows.

I came here to get a quote for another thread but as I read this decided to reply to it anyway.

I have recently found a great program called Microsoft SyncToy which will essentially let you take one folder and copy all its contents to another folder somewhere on your computer. It makes backup of local files a breeze and could easily backup an entire hard drive.

Just thought I'd put that out there since it seems a lot easier than standard backup software (I've never used it) that requires rebooting and everything. SyncToy is selective syncing, just like Dropbox, but instead of online cloud storage everything is local. And as many pairings can be made as you wish.

 

[crippli]

I don't see why people want to make this into a moral or ethical issue. Clearly, if we manage to continue innovating without intellectual property, it is better for humanity, as inventions and culture become accessible for everyone to modify and utilize. It is a form of wealth that we can copy without material restraint. It is sad that it is now restricted, and we put a lot of wealth into restricting it through law-related fees/work, inefficient distribution models, police expenses, patenting processes and other things.

All these people have families, children, husbands etc to feed. I can bet on that they are very happy that they have work.

There are more people on the way. Even if no one was pirating. We may would have to pay someone to do it, so not all these people got fired.

I think one should keep in mind that there isn't all that much to do on this planet, not for all these people. And if all these people was producing food?? my god, what would happen then?

I think it's good that both pirates, and anti pirates spend their time on this pursue of time. It seems it makes a whole lot of people occupied.

 

[pjoa09]

I agree with Solitaire U. I hate my harddrive. It's like standing on 900 foot tall stilts. Slow, fragile, and your life depends on it. All you can do is ask for more stilts because you are goddamn sure this stilt is gonna break and you'd be fucked.

Drop my phone while its on, don't give a shit.
Drop my harddrive while its on, OHHHH FUCKKKKKK NOOOO PLEASE NOOOOO WHY WHY? WHY??? FUCKKK I SHOULD HAVE BACKED UP THE BACK UP OF THE BACK UP OF THE BACK UP

Even when it is off I just try to make peace with the fact that I might not have the contents of the harddrive with me anymore. I don't even want to check if it works. It'd just fuck my week.

Got a little pumped up.

 

[Sigma Octantis]

I noticed that you kept calling everyone immature even though they've presented a logical response to your thread.


I hate to be rude but why dont you look twice at whos being immature.
(not the OP, forgot who the other guy was and im too lazy to care on who it is but this person knows who they are.)


In my opinion, piracy wont be stopped not unless they find an alternative.

Take Steve Jobs as an example, he was revolutionary.

and im sure that music piracy was reduced because of the convenience of purchasing songs for just 99c.

he also managed to promote upcoming bands and products.

the only bad thing about it is that iTunes UI werent really that impressive but the idea of someone talking to major production companies and telling them...

"Sell your songs for one dollar each." was the revolutionary idea and if movies and shows were easily accesible like that too, then im sure that media piracy would decrease but not completely kill it.


so now its just a matter of how are you going to make someone run towards a wolf.



...by showing them a much bigger and badder wolf of course.