To Insure Promptitude

[xross_fire]

When going into a restaurant, why is it that people always feel obligated to tip the servers, when the servers choose to apply for that $2/hr job? They get paid only $2/hr to serve food because that's what the position of "server" entails. They agree to do it. So, why is it implied that customers should pay them extra for being cheerful or quick service instead of their managers giving them a raise? Why is it not implied that customers pay all service providers tips based on good or bad service? I understand that the service of having your food delivered is built upon a "pay what you think it's worth" model, but doesn't it also encourage selfishness and not teamwork, something many restaurant managers try to discourage?

It's not that this practice offends me, so much as it just seems illogical for a customer to have to make up for the amount of payment servers work for that the employers aren't paying.

Why even stop with just tipping servers? Wouldn't it be more fair to just have the entire staff paid on that model and receive tips?

 

[Reverse Transcriptase]

If no one tipped, then the food would be more expensive to pay for waiters and waitresses.

I do agree with customary tipping. It gives us a good method of feedback that people pay attention to. However, since you only see the waiter's performance I think it's only appropriate to have them be tipped. (Although I hear that hosts/hostesses and other employees in the restaurant get some portion of the tips from waiters & waitresses.)

It is silly... but, meh, it's okay.

However, I do question tipping bartenders. The drinks are already ridiculously expensive, and I just feel difficulty paying more. I often do anyway... but at less than the rate of $1/drink (which I think is what bartenders would like everyone to give them).

 

[Kidege]

the servers choose to apply for that $2/hr job?

Over here, $5 a day, and they're supposed to be thankful (it's not a "temporary job" for students, either) . If I don't tip I feel like the miserable bastard the owner usually is. But I prefer not to go to places with servers, precisely because I can't stand this.

 

[Tyria]

There is also a thing called tipshare in which everyone receives a cut of the server's tips. That model provides for some of what you are talking about, but you could always make the case that some are not working as hard as others. Now that the gratuity situation has been changed things are quite different when the expectation was that tips would be the bulk of a server's payment instead of the restaurant.

It works out well for restaurants because they can hire a server for something like 2 or 3 dollars an hour, but if business is slow then the server doesn't get 'paid' well.

 

[Inappropriate Behavior]

It's not a $2 an hour job. It's a job that depends on a gratuity. Their tax withholdings are based on the standard percentages for each bill unless the restaraunt makes other arrangements. Usually they don't. That $2/hour goes almost solely to tax withholdings. A 40 hour week and they get a check for less than $10. A 15% tip brings their wage up to about $7 an/hour. Who the fuck would take such a crappy job as waiting tables for $2 an hour?

If you don't tip them, you're cheating them.

'nuf said.

Edit:

it just seems illogical for a customer to have to make up for the amount of payment servers work for that the employers aren't paying.

Okay, think about it a minute. If restaraunts were to just pay an hourly wage it would 1. Raise prices so your paying more anyway and 2. it would take away much of the motivation to provide better service.

You'd lose out even more. Just tip 15-20 percent and quit yer bitchin'

 

[Cavallier]

Over here, $5 a day, and they're supposed to be thankful (it's not a "temporary job" for students, either) . If I don't tip I feel like the miserable bastard the owner usually is.

Thank you for saying this Kidege. It's true that many people do not simply "choose" this kind of job. Many end up with it because they can not find a better one anywhere else.

It's a job that depends on a gratuity. Their tax withholdings are based on the standard percentages for each bill unless the restaraunt makes other arrangements. Usually they don't. That $2/hour goes almost solely to tax withholdings. A 40 hour week and they get a check for less than $10. A 15% tip brings their wage up to about $7 an/hour. Who the fuck would take such a crappy job as waiting tables for $2 an hour?

If you don't tip them, you're cheating them.

Sadly, I was about to flip a bitch and I'm glad you've clarified this fact so that I might continue in my emotional equilibrium*

Why would somebody take a shitty job like this? I mean, it's not as if living off of 7$ an hour is really all that feasible any more. Apartment rent in my town is around the $600 for a clean but tiny apartment. Utilities run about $250 and that's if you don't get anything but a cell phone, electricity, water/sewer, and garbage. After taxes and bills, even if you get 40 hours a week at 7$ and hour, you're looking at negative income. Frankly its the best some people can do sometimes. Some people will point out that the kind of person who would take this job is lazy or a looser but how exactly is the person expected to better themselves when they can't pay their bills with their shitty pay. Many people who don't have money for college and after high school start out in food service and then have trouble saving money for school from their job because it hardly pays enough for them to survive. And I won't even go into the issue of young pregnant mothers with no support system...it's not just a cliche after all.

*Whew!* That was a bit of rant. I apologize. I hate trying to calculate a tip which is dumb because it's just simple multiplication and tickling decimal points* but I live with it because I've been in the food server's position. I know that somebody that day will probably throw a plate of food at them just because they felt like it and people everywhere are bastards. I DO wish there was a better way though.


*Who knew IB had it in him? He'd better repair his reputation and say something truly disgusting and emotionally charged!

*Tickling Decimal Points is fun. I suggest everyone do it. You don't even need prophylactics!

 

[Claverhouse]

From myself elsewhere...

So if there was no minimum wage, employers could pay workers $3 an hour, and therefore those workers could work 80 hours a week out of desperation ? Why not permit employers to pay nothing and keep their workers in little hutches with free food from the cradle to the grave ?


I'd prefer that workers were paid enough to live on; tips are an inefficient model: any fool of an employer who can't budget to pay his/her workers properly is incapable of running a business and should go broke --- unless he's a libertarian who thinks he is owed a free lunch by his employees.




Claverhouse

 

[ifelloverboard]

Did you watch Reservoir Dogs recently? All I can think of when reading the OP is Mr. Pink...

I'm very sorry the government taxes their tips, that's fucked up. That ain't my fault. It would seem to me that waitresses are one of the many groups the government fucks in the ass on a regular basis. Look, if you ask me to sign something that says the government shouldn't do that, I'll sign it, put it to a vote, I'll vote for it, but what I won't do is play ball. And as for this non-college bullshit I got two words for that: learn to fuckin' type, 'cause if you're expecting me to help out with the rent you're in for a big fuckin' surprise.

Along with the other posters the system is fine as it gives the customer some leverage along with lower prices and even if they do a good job you don't have to tip but come on what are you a schlep?

YouTube- Reservoir Dogs - Opening Scene

 

[Eljua]

I'd much rather pay more for a meal and have the worker living relatively well, for less hours, and being happier to come to work, than tip someone who has to force themselves to appear like they enjoy their work so they can make enough money to live on.

Someone who makes barely enough money to live on is going to have bad days, because they're making barely enough money to live on. Then some jackass decides that because they're having a bad day, they weren't friendly enough, and so they don't get tipped, so they have even less money at the end of the day, and are even unhappier in life.

 

[walfin]

Some people will point out that the kind of person who would take this job is lazy or a looser but how exactly is the person expected to better themselves when they can't pay their bills with their shitty pay.

That's why I always say, love of money isn't the root of all evil - lack of money (and the resources it can buy) is.

Why not permit employers to pay nothing and keep their workers in little hutches with free food from the cradle to the grave ?

But in this case the employers are not paying nothing - they are paying in kind. The worker is not prevented from leaving, and the employee should demand lobster for every meal - that would only be unconscionable if the employee was allergic to lobster.

 

[Jennywocky]

Okay, think about it a minute. If restaraunts were to just pay an hourly wage it would 1. Raise prices so your paying more anyway and 2. it would take away much of the motivation to provide better service.

Yeah, that.

I'm wondering how much age has to do with this.

When i was about 20, I would bitch and moan over it and had the same issues. Nowadays I pay 20% for good service, 10-15% for mediocre service. My feelings just changed on the matter and I have different priorities.

Barring that, maybe we should all watch the opening of Reservoir Dogs together.

 

[Eljua]

Okay, think about it a minute. If restaraunts were to just pay an hourly wage it would 1. Raise prices so your paying more anyway and 2. it would take away much of the motivation to provide better service.

Seeing as this has just been raised by Jenny, I'll address it also.

Someone owns a business. They start paying a decent minimum wage. People find out you pay a more steady wage, though they will be less likely to gain tips. Some people will prefer the stability of a decent wage, and so apply to this job. Again, it is important to note that the wage is decent and provides a way of living a semi-comfortable life. They start performing your job badly, and they get replaced with one of many many hundreds of people who would kill to have a job with a steady and decent income. Ergo, you have motivation.

 

[ifelloverboard]

Seeing as this has just been raised by Jenny, I'll address it also.

Someone owns a business. They start paying a decent minimum wage. People find out you pay a more steady wage, though they will be less likely to gain tips. Some people will prefer the stability of a decent wage, and so apply to this job. Again, it is important to note that the wage is decent and provides a way of living a semi-comfortable life. They start performing your job badly, and they get replaced with one of many many hundreds of people who would kill to have a job with a steady and decent income. Ergo, you have motivation.

That's not across the board. Maybe in a small community or something. Most waitresses/waiters in places with populations of 20k+ earn far more than they would working a steady job at Wal-Mart or a restaurant that pays solely federal minimum wage.. say in Chicago or any other large sized metro your bartenders in the downtown districts are going to make over 1k in a weekend.

Only a small percentage of customers would actually change where they want to eat based on if they have to tip or not. I don't know anyone personally that has ever said something about going somewhere else because they have to tip.

If I were a waiter I would much rather work based on tips than hourly knowing that if I'm interactive, fill the coffee six times and what not I likely am going to go home with double what I would have made hourly.

EDIT: Money management and such the psychological effect of having cash in your pocket over a paycheck in the bank would be a viable cause for most of the tips being blown especially if this is the best job they can get.. money management probably isn't a strong point in their life and from that perspective I can see it hard to get a couple hundred bucks in tips and go put it in the bank instead of going out and getting fucked up or something.

 

[Eljua]

That's not across the board. Maybe in a small community or something. Most waitresses/waiters in places with populations of 20k+ earn far more than they would working a steady job at Wal-Mart or a restaurant that pays solely federal minimum wage.. say in Chicago or any other large sized metro your bartenders in the downtown districts are going to make over 1k in a weekend.

My apologies, I forgot the world is solely based within the CBD and annexed areas. Next time an issue is raised regarding the general work ethics of an entire service sector, I'll simply leave out the important part of the debate, those who care whether they make $5 or $10 dollars in tips a hour, because it means going hungry if they don't get the upper figure in an 8 hour day.

Only a small percentage of customers would actually change where they want to eat based on if they have to tip or not. I don't know anyone personally that has ever said something about going somewhere else because they have to tip.

Not the actual issue I was attempting to raise. Paying the worker what they need to live and not have to rely on the kind heartedness of the paying public is the issue I was attempting to address. Simply paying somebody enough to get by does not automatically mean they must forego tips, it simply means they no longer have to rely on tips, making a tip a nice bonus, rather than a necessity

If I were a waiter I would much rather work based on tips than hourly knowing that if I'm interactive, fill the coffee six times and what not I likely am going to go home with double what I would have made hourly.

EDIT: Money management and such the psychological effect of having cash in your pocket over a paycheck in the bank would be a viable cause for most of the tips being blown especially if this is the best job they can get.. money management probably isn't a strong point in their life and from that perspective I can see it hard to get a couple hundred bucks in tips and go put it in the bank instead of going out and getting fucked up or something.

Tips should be a nice bonus that can be used to make life slightly more comfortable, not a requirement in order to life. If you were offered two jobs, one that offered you $10 a shift after taxes, and another that offered you $40 a shift after taxes, which would you choose?

 

[ifelloverboard]

My apologies, I forgot the world is solely based within the CBD and annexed areas. Next time an issue is raised regarding the general work ethics of an entire service sector, I'll simply leave out the important part of the debate, those who care whether they make $5 or $10 dollars in tips a hour, because it means going hungry if they don't get the upper figure in an 8 hour day.

Incorrect, I said in towns of 20,000 people or more which would account for most of America. The CBD was merely an example, however I've had this discussion with waiters/waitresses and they love making tips over a steady paycheck. Your sarcasm is endearing though.

Not the actual issue I was attempting to raise. Paying the worker what they need to live and not have to rely on the kind heartedness of the paying public is the issue I was attempting to address. Simply paying somebody enough to get by does not automatically mean they must forego tips, it simply means they no longer have to rely on tips, making a tip a nice bonus, rather than a necessity

I understand that wasn't the issue you were trying to raise I was eluding to something else hoping you would converse on that rather than become ego defensive. The public is going to pay anyway, they would increase the cost of service or just add the gratuity automatically like many places do when you have a large group. Where is the capital coming from to pay an employee $6 more an hour than what they were getting paid? That's the non sequitur. Okay so you increase prices to cover the overhead of paying your employees more but you don't make your patronage aware of this because you want the employees to get tipped.. so now you're looking at a $20 meal looking more like $27 to cover the wages plus the added tip say $35 and now you're running the risk of losing serious patronage.

When it's not a technical job in the first place and if you're not a high class place retention really doesn't matter. The only thing happening in your model is risking patronage and with that ultimately your business. If it was a specialized profession that few could do then yes it would be imperative to pay more and pay steady. It is the most cost effective for overhead and IRS dealings to base it on tips.

The $10 a shift because my tips are going to be well over the constant $40.

EDIT Afterthought: Your model is simply speculative at best and because all states are at will states the employee can quit at anytime and the employer can fire at any time. Given that with the way the market works wouldn't these places of business go out of business to other places that use your model? Why is the tip based system thriving? Although I don't think it's just easy for everyone to quit there are plenty of jobs out there that have the same or less requirements of serving that offer a steady paycheck. In a market and at will based system it would take care of itself.

 

[dents]

There was an article somewhere about this exact thing. A restaurant got rid of tips completely and everyone was much happier. I'll post it if I find it.

 

[ifelloverboard]

There was an article somewhere about this exact thing. A restaurant got rid of tips completely and everyone was much happier. I'll post it if I find it.

I don't think there's an end all to this even with that example. As I suggested above with a market at will based economy if one way is clearly more profitable and thus increasing business sustainability why isn't every business adopting this? Out of spite? The guts of a business is a means to an end and if there is a better way that way will most often be adopted.

Of course this controversy exists elsewhere than this forum on a much larger platform which means there isn't a clear cut solution.

If you find that article I would like to dissect and analyze it though.

 

[Aiss]

Incorrect, I said in towns of 20,000 people or more which would account for most of America. The CBD was merely an example, however I've had this discussion with waiters/waitresses and they love making tips over a steady paycheck. Your sarcasm is endearing though.

That's one of the things I actually dislike about US, Canada and to a certain degree UK. In most of Europe service is usually included in price, which I think is fair. It's the same thing as with including sales tax in display price - doing otherwise is tricking people into thinking they're paying less. Similar to .99 endings, but in my opinion more misleading. Which is the reason it isn't going to change, I suppose.

 

[ifelloverboard]

That's one of the things I actually dislike about US, Canada and to a certain degree UK. In most of Europe service is usually included in price, which I think is fair. It's the same thing as with including sales tax in display price - doing otherwise is tricking people into thinking they're paying less. Similar to .99 endings, but in my opinion more misleading. Which is the reason it isn't going to change, I suppose.

I'm sticking to my guns on this one and if the ship goes down I'll go with it. I enjoy tipping, of having that control not just in restaurants and maybe that's why I'm bent on defending it.

The thing is with me is that the quality of service is measurable. It's one of the few arenas where the customer really does have control. One of my favorite clubs I go to I get served right away even if there's people who've been waiting for a half hour to get their first drink. Tipping has perks beyond just restaurants.

 

[Reverse Transcriptase]

Oh right! I had a job that tipped, I was a pizza delivery guy.

Let me tell you: After two months of working there I knew who tipped well. If I had more than one pizza to delivery (we routinely have two) then I would make them the priority.

Gotta keep them satisfied.

 

[Claverhouse]

The public is going to pay anyway, they would increase the cost of service or just add the gratuity automatically like many places do when you have a large group. Where is the capital coming from to pay an employee $6 more an hour than what they were getting paid? That's the non sequitur.

As in all for-profit businesses, any wages paid in exchange for labour and any increases to those wages come from the income of the profits generated by the sale of products. If those wages are too great to make the business profitable they can not hire anyone and do the work themselves or close the business.

Okay so you increase prices to cover the overhead of paying your employees more but you don't make your patronage aware of this because you want the employees to get tipped.. so now you're looking at a $20 meal looking more like $27 to cover the wages plus the added tip say $35 and now you're running the risk of losing serious patronage.

You have unwittingly slipped into a sleight-of-hand here by not counting the tips in the first instance. With your suggested tip being $8 it looks like this =

$20 + tip = $28 meal.
$27 + tip = $35 meal.

Further, you are suggesting that the whole $7 per hour wage is consumed by the service for one meal; as if the waiter/waitress devotes one whole hour to each order.



Claverhouse

 

[Inappropriate Behavior]

The fact of the matter still remains: They get taxed based on 15% (or more.. not sure exactly, could be as high as 20%) of the bill. Let's say you spend 1 hour at your table and run up a bill of $100. The waitress is taxed for $15 (or whatever rate) no matter what. Suddenly that $2/hour gets even less if you don't tip. I believe even migrant workers get paid more than that (that's a whole 'nuther issue).

If you don't tip them, you are ripping them off and it makes you a selfish, nasty little prick.

Plain and simple.

Now as to whether or not that situation is best for the wait staff depends on the establishment. Higher end or bigger city restaraunts are more expensive and more often yeild higher tips which is to the wait staff's advantage (unless they end up with a lot of selfish, nasty little pricks). If you go to someplace like a crappy diner (Denny's comes to mind) you can rest assured that the waitstaff either lives in squalor, has another job or is part of a family with 2 or more jobs (leaving any kids to fend for themselves often times. We all know how well that usually turns out). So to them, a decent hourly wage would be to their advantage as those who are too cheap to tip or run out on the check more often frequent those low end establishments. The minimum wage is NOT a decent hourly wage!

*btw, the waitress is often held responsible if you run out on a check. Punishment for doing so should be a severe beating*

*Who knew IB had it in him? He'd better repair his reputation and say something truly disgusting and emotionally charged!

Okay Cav, you asked for it!

As a former chef in many restaraunts, I've had 'relations' <---sex! with a few waitresses in my time.

They are horrible in bed after work (and smelly too. <--reputation restored?) but on their day off....holy shit! the energy they have!

 

[Cobra]

I believe in effort and ownership. Not necessarily skill. Most times I tip when I recognize that a server is being overworked. Unless they keep coming over and telling me how busy it is in the place and trying to make someone else accountable, like, "If my boss would just hire some more people! Lemme go get those drinks for ya that you asked for."

Other times, when I notice that busboys are doing most of the work, I don't tip well or I don't tip at all. Unless I tip the busboy. But when this is happening is likely that tipshare is in play.

I very much disagree with tipshare. Don't send me your best ambassador at the very beginning and the very end of my meal and expect to take advantage of an age-old tradition while sending me guys trained to do dishes and mop floors during the middle. I ask him for a lime, he brings me a lemon (a common lingual error from Spanish to English that I have yet to understand; the Spanish lemon is "el limon," and the Spanish lime is "la limon" or "la lima..." If I had asked for a lemon, I could understand the mistake, but...). I ask him how long it will be, and he says "5 minutes" when he and I both know damn well that he has no idea how long it will be. This may sound like some sort of racist/classist commentary, but it is not. I have been presented with someone who claims to be my server, yet they are not going to be serving my food or providing me with any type of service other than to write down what I want, give it to the kitchen, and then come back later to collect my money?

There are underlying issues I'm probably unfairly appending to the concept. Do not mistake my frustration with the way a restaurant owner manages their business for a frustration I have with people in the process of learning my language while making a living in my country (something that does NOT bother me).

My point is, I don't want a business using tipshare if another group of people is doing most of the work while we're fooling ourselves that the person responsible for our service is the "server."

Have you ever had to speak with the manager of an establishment like this for an unpleasant reason? This usually prompts them to 86 the busboys and suddenly you're being served and spoken to by your "server" again. It's weird and it feels dark and dirty.

I tip 20% wherever I go unless they've been a jerk or I experience the above issues.

I may not have explained things correctly, so feel free to scrutinize to get it out of me. I'm at work, so I might have sounded a different way than I meant to.

 

[Kidege]

As far as I know, limes can design a wide variety of citrics, and the meaning of the term varies from region to region, even in Spanish speaking places.

This is what a Mex would call limón. Notice it's green and small. Some are bigger but always green and acidic. A quick wiki check calls them Citrus aurantifolia.

Limas are bigger, yellow, and sweet, and their main usages are for sweets and subtly flavored soups. (and, unless I'm mistaken -and I could be-, the wiki calls them Citrus limetta).


/derailment


Edit:

It's "el limón" for what you call lime (I think)
And "la lima" for what you call God knows what.

"La limón" is bad grammar

/derailment, again.

 

[Cavallier]

Okay Cav, you asked for it!

As a former chef in many restaurants, I've had 'relations' <---sex! with a few waitresses in my time.

They are horrible in bed after work (and smelly too. <--reputation restored?) but on their day off....holy shit! the energy they have!

Good enough I suppose. The Forum is restored to it's former glory.

Also, not terribly surprised. I mean, you work for 8-12 hours and smell like food and IB...I mean BO...not tasty. But if you are used to working this hard and you've got a day off...well, all that energy goes into the kinky sexing.