I will concede this one single point that Sweden's rape statistics are overblown.
However, no one here is Saudi or has lived in Saudi Arabia or has done criminology research in KSA, and therefore, I don't see how you can assert that all the statistics that are currently available are totally inaccurate and that by default, Saudi Arabia's rape rate is equal or higher to that found in western nations. You want to make fun of Interpol's stats... fine, I'm going to do more research on this and then get back to you guys.
On one hand, you're making fun of me for citing statistics, and telling me that it's impossible to find reliable and accurate stats for rape/domestic violence etc. in KSA, yet you feel totally comfortable asserting that just because we've all heard stories about Saudi women being raped and abused that this must mean that it's just as common as in western nations. That's why I say, you haven't really critically examined your beliefs. Pretty much everything that is available online in English concerning women's rights in KSA comes from organizations that are very critical of the legal system over there, and view it through the lens of a westerner (often female). I've had female Saudi students. They were happily married; their husbands were stand-up guys. They had the opportunity to pursue advanced studies. They didn't seem miserable to me. In fact, most of them were incredible students. Largely better than arab men. The State Department estimates that 16% - 50% of all women in KSA have suffered "abuse." It's stats like that that make me suspicious. Are we talking about Saudi citizens or just foreign workers who have no legal rights? If true it would mean that up to half of men will end up abusing a woman in their life. I have had a lot of male arab students. A couple were tools, most were pretty nice guys. They're kind of lazy, but abusive? Not by a long stretch. I'm not saying the system overall doesn't need change, it does, but we're only exposed to a very one-sided POV here...
Good points, including general ignorance on actual stats by both sides of this issue. One quibble: You can't tell if a person's abusive. You have no idea what happens behind closed doors. Don't assume anyone isn't abusive if your relationship isn't particularly close (eg teacher-student). This idea that socially nice people don't do terrible things has been upended time and time again by grisly news reports. This unfortunately removes support for the argument that we can dismiss the possibility of there being many abusive men from that culture. Also, as a rule, anecdotal evidence doesn't serve you well when suggesting large-scale trends. It's best used for disproving absolutes (eg, that we can tell if an acquaintance is abusive by how nice they seem in social settings) and adding nuance.
Throwing in my 2c with Hado on correlated values/cultural beliefs. If they've got a bunch of shitty beliefs/practices in one direction, it's more unlikely they'd be doing better than the rest of the world in another. Concluding that they're doing better requires extraordinary evidence, which we don't have.
Inquisitor said:
In Saudi Arabia, the rate is 0.14, close to 178 times lower. Those numbers are from Interpol btw. Now the justice system over there is different, rape goes extremely underreported, and statistics are hard to come by. That said, it's still far lower than in the US, because rape is also underreported here as well.
I really do sympathise with your intention to remain unswayed by popular opinion and look at the data. I think it's important to continue to be careful about what we're fed and look at opposing evidence, even if we risk losing social currency, ie we must be willing to lose currency in order not to fall prey to that bias. But it's also important not to be swung in the other direction by an assumption that all popular opinion is sourced from BS data and/or driven purely by status seeking (or political aims, or whatever else).
In that quote, for instance - 'underreported' isn't some standard, defined number which serves as an equaliser between countries. Underreported in both countries doesn't mean to the same extent, and it doesn't mean '178 times lower' - or lower at all - still stands. We shouldn't assume 178 times higher in the US + underreporting isn't enough to make up for the underreporting in Saudi. We really don't know what the numbers are, we'd just be guessing off what appears to be a large number, something we feel can't reasonably be beaten. That feeling isn't real data though. And as others have pointed out, the definition of rape can range from extremely narrow to extremely inclusive - so you might not even be comparing numbers on the same thing. If marital rape isn't recognised in Saudi but is in the US, then you have an entire nation of men feeling entitled to rape their wives whereas in the latter it's a criminal offense. That's potentially nation-wide rape, which would be nation-wide underreporting and certainly affect the stat gap. It isn't certainly the case, but it's a reasonable hypothesis, and if we can imagine reasonable hypotheses, we must not exclude them; we mustn't conclude prematurely. We certainly can't conclude that rape is definitely lower in Saudi, or come to other contingent conclusions (that enforcing female dress codes lowers rape rates, that their justice system works, etc).
You've jumped from a recognition that people don't necessarily know what they're talking about to not looking carefully at what you're inferring from data yourself. Yes, people need to look at facts and reality on the ground and not just listen to popular opinion (though I'd add that plenty of people *do* do this), but those facts need to be understood in context and interpreted correctly in order to draw valid conclusions.
From what you've provided alone, I don't think we can conclude anything other than far fewer rapes are reported in Saudi than in the US. (Also, what's the incidence of false rape claims in the US compared to Saudi? I imagine it's much higher in the US as the benefits would be greater - this would again inflate the numbers past the actual reality, on top of more encompassing definitions of rape. Not sure if this was reflected in the Interpol numbers.)
I do think counterpoints are important, but they need to be understood and presented carefully to avoid the trap of bias. I think this applies especially for counterpoints which are in danger of being misused as support for abusive agendas, though that's a topic for another thread.