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Sinny91

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I haven't personally heard of a female getting "sexually assaulted" (i.e. rape), but I do hear a lot of stories, personally, on how females would portray the male as the aggressor who then 'manipulated' females in some way to lead to that action.


You know about the progressive view that paedophiles are not responsible for their thoughts & actions, and yet you don't know any stories about rape ... okay then..
 

onesteptwostep

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You know about the progressive view that paedophiles are not responsible for their thoughts & actions, and yet you don't know any stories about rape ... okay then..
Pedophiles are responsible for their actions, but not their thoughts. Their orientation is wired, but their actions are generally immoral, and often illegal.

On rape, I lived my adolescence in fairly rural and somewhat safe environments so no, I didn't hear a lot about rape directly. Now, I hear about them from college students, (my peers and lower colleagues and so on). A lot of my female acquaintances that I know of that haven't exactly been, uh, 'raped'. Or sexually assaulted in a fairly errr, large way.

Pedophilia is more of a psychological issue so there's coverage of that on the web, but things like rape are local, which I feel I don't have much depth in. I moved a lot.
 

Sinny91

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Pedophiles are responsible for their actions, but not their thoughts.

Says you. (and some select 'professionals')

Thoughts are a created and so they can be destroyed.

'Control your mind before it controls you'.
Those unable to do so are weak and meek.

Anyway, we know we disagree here, my more relevant point is that you've had the time to study the thought processes of paedophiles, but not the time to study the thought processes of victims of sexual assault, (context aforementioned), making you an inadequate contributor in this discussion (IMO, obvs)
 

onesteptwostep

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@sinny
Says you. (and some select 'professionals')

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM), published by the American Psychiatric Association (APA), offers a common language and standard criteria for the classification of mental disorders. It is used, or relied upon, by clinicians, researchers, psychiatric drug regulation agencies, health insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies, the legal system, and policy makers together with alternatives such as the International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems (ICD), produced by the World Health Organization (WHO). The DSM is now in its fifth edition, DSM-5, published on May 18, 2013.

wiki

It's on par with the 'International Statis..' bla bla (ICD), apparently, which the WHO uses. Basically, the DSM is respected by WHO. The World Health Organization is not 'some select professionals'.

Here is a picture of the WHO, located in geneva. WHO is working with korea right now to take on MERS. They aren't just a 'nobody'.
 

Brontosaurie

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TG is no longer considered a mental illness, neither is fetishm and homosexuality. A few years ago it was. But no longer. They are as mentally fit as everyone else. It's a new discovery, so it may take some time before it's acknowledged everywhere.

i think that has to do with TG getting more accepted, and the common concept of mental illness being a concept of taboo. TG is no longer (that extremely) taboo, thus no longer a "mental illness" in our books. but it is a failure of the mind to adapt to the organism and it remains mental illness in that definition, which i find the best one.

psychiatry is far from perfect. and it cannot be said to reflect a scientific examination of the human mind.
 

crippli

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i think that has to do with TG getting more accepted, and the common concept of mental illness being a concept of taboo. TG is no longer (that extremely) taboo, thus no longer a "mental illness" in our books. but it is a failure of the mind to adapt to the organism and it remains mental illness in that definition, which i find the best one.

psychiatry is far from perfect. and it cannot be said to reflect a scientific examination of the human mind.
Is there a difference between SRS and a heart transplant if both organisms make one sick? That is why it's not considered a mental illness any longer. Since it's not the brain that is specifically threated. The sexual organism isn't part of the brain more then the hearth. There is no brain matter in sexual organs that I am aware. Maybe neurons. I still think it a stretch to consider sexual organs mental entities no matter how fond one is of them. The more severe cases, the transsexuals(TG is a huge group), to my knowledge there is only one working treatment. Physical, hormone adjustment, and maybe sexual reassignment. That's all. Mental treatments apparently make the mind/body divide larger.

A 30 year old person that the entire life thought they where the other sex in spite of all attempts at imprinting the opposite. The thought pattern will be so throughly imprinted that it cannot be undone. Like each time you take a knife and cut a groove. The groove becomes stronger and deeper. At a point further attempts to erase the grooves will destroy the sculpture(brain). When it is grooved as say female, why not let it be? It's not an illness to be female, or male. Probably at least. Body/brain divide is probably not healthy. Body can be somewhat cured, brain apparently not. I think even such drastic treatments as lobotomy failed, didn't produce the wanted results. So it's my impression that focusing on the brain have proven a dead end. As is why the focus is to adjust the body instead. To me this also makes logical sense, when body/brain chasm is too large and one want it adjusted.
 

Seteleechete

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Comparing how males dress to how females (should) dress is like comparing apples and oranges. Female brains do not react as strongly to visual (sexual) stimuli as male brains. The science is solid on that. The stripping industry is 92% female apparently. Women just don't care very much if men walk around in skimpy clothing. It doesn't increase your chances very much as a man of sexual assault by a female, although it definitely may increase your odds of getting raped by another man.

Quit being a jack*ass Seteleechete. I never justified female rape. I'm tired of hearing all rape is always 100% the man's fault all the time. The underlined part is exactly the problem I'm talking about: In an ideal world, that would be true, but we live in a world with plenty of maladjusted young men and women who had shitty parents/single parents/no parents/foster parents/were abused as children, etc. To minimize the risk of rape/sexual assault, the approach needs to include both genders taking steps, not only men. The reality is feminism destroyed social norms which had been around for (possibly) thousands of years regarding female dress and behavior. The norms evolved for many reasons, but, fundamentally, one of them was the recognition that unchecked female attire/behavior sows discord.

Anyway...I'm not too concerned...I know the pendulum swings back and forth, and eventually we will go back to some of those norms because they match up more closely with what's best for everyone.

Firstly yes, you are justifying female rape by saying there are circumstances where the perpetrator isn't at fault(heavily drugging is the one exception I will accept here, in which case it's still rape just the female doing so).

From a certain conservative point of view you aren't entirely wrong, females taking preventive steps would help but there is a problem with that and it ties to the larger issue of progress. Why do robots take away the jobs of thousands resulting in real short term pain? Because in the end it makes things more effective. The same logic can be applied to this case, why do we allow provocative clothing? because it also leads to progress, just in civil liberties instead. By allowing provocative clothing and persecuting perpetrators, we are progressing those things and changing the cultural norm to reflect it. If we forbid provocative clothing we would be hampering progress and civil liberties instead.

Now if you believe this progress is good or bad is a matter of political opinion as far as I am concerned repressive social norms are meant to be challenged. Progressing civil liberties is important to avoid a long range of issues such as authoritarian regimes, discrimination and repressive behaviour. As with all progress you adjust or you fall through the cracks, in this case adjusting to having hot ladies everywhere and not acting on instincts or going to jail.
 

Inquisitor

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i think that has to do with TG getting more accepted, and the common concept of mental illness being a concept of taboo. TG is no longer (that extremely) taboo, thus no longer a "mental illness" in our books. but it is a failure of the mind to adapt to the organism and it remains mental illness in that definition, which i find the best one.

psychiatry is far from perfect. and it cannot be said to reflect a scientific examination of the human mind.

A brief online search of wikipedia reveals that there is a growing body of research indicating that TG is rooted in biological architecture as opposed to the mind. I realize in the grand scheme of things, there is no distinction between the body and the mind, but since psychiatry does make this distinction, TG would no longer to seem to qualify as a mental illness in the psychiatric use of the term. If there is a significant genetic difference between TG males and non-TG males, it's safe to say a purely psychotherapeutic approach is not going to be enough.
 

Inquisitor

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The article you linked reports that roughly 1/3 women and 1/4 males are victims of sexual assault. How is that an agenda against men exactly? It outright acknowledges that it happens to both sexes.

It ends up favoring women in the end because the definition of rape can then be expanded to include lots of things, even unwelcome touching. Women stand to gain much more than men from this. The criminal definition is much stricter, and by that definition, the actual number of cases is much lower. I just felt like pointing that out because it's a great example of the extent to which feminist advocacy has even penetrated a top government agency that people rely on to deliver unbiased and nonpartisan scientific research.

Also it's pretty well documented there's a large disparity between cases of rape and cases of reported rape. Citing report figures and saying, "this is the real world" is just sticking your head in the sand.

The bold part is true, but I fail to see how I'm sticking my head in the sand by referencing the NCVS, which is apparently the best source of rape statistics in country. :confused:

In any case whether or not media is "fair" doesn't warrant lashing out at rape victims. I don't discount anything you're saying about lack of support programs for men.

Not lashing out at victims. It's the media that's in my crosshairs.

No the problem with statistics is that there are cultural reasons for as why some people would not report the assault. Men usually don't report them because it would be against traditional gender culture which dominates western society. Men don't need the support because they'd (I imagine) get over it in a months, (or at least a year [I mean seriously]).

You'd have to reason beyond statistics. But however, I do disagree on the point that there's an agenda against men, that's the warping the issue too much imo. (No offense)

Also, inquistor is talking something about this:

What a sad story. Men do apparently report domestic violence less than women. I don't know if the same is true for rape. Seems probable.

Everything you have posted thus far has made me think evil thoughts about you.
In relation to visual stimuli; I'm a highly sexually driven woman, and I'm a borderline perv when it comes to certain men in various stages of undress - including in public. But I wouldn't rape them... Do you know why? Because I'm responsible for my actions. Creep.



You can talk.



Sure as hell reads like it on the screen I'm looking at.

.

It's 100% the attackers fault. If the attacker be male, then the male be 100% responsible.



Preventative actions only go so far, as has been described in detail by other members here, who you are quick to dismiss.



You mean when women were even more so repressed by men?



Male egotism?



In cavemen.



Who ever said your thought process is 'simple' is bang on the money.

I'm going to revise what I said earlier:

rape is always 100% the man's fault all the time.

to this:

Rapists are always 100% responsible for their actions, but they are not necessarily responsible for their motivations.

The media does not seem to have any problems discussing the motives of serial killers and murderers, but doing that with rapists seems taboo. Murder is a more severe crime in the eyes of the law, yet I don't recall hearing much discussion ever on the proximal and/or ultimate causes of rape in the media. I think that's what bothers me. It doesn't seem to be reported in a balanced way. The man is always portrayed as evil, and the woman is always a helpless (innocent) victim. In murder cases though, the man's mental status is reported in detail, and journalists liberally speculate about his motives and the relationship between the man and the victim.

Firstly yes, you are justifying female rape by saying there are circumstances where the perpetrator isn't at fault(heavily drugging is the one exception I will accept here, in which case it's still rape just the female doing so).

From a certain conservative point of view you aren't entirely wrong, females taking preventive steps would help but there is a problem with that and it ties to the larger issue of progress. Why do robots take away the jobs of thousands resulting in real short term pain? Because in the end it makes things more effective. The same logic can be applied to this case, why do we allow provocative clothing? because it also leads to progress, just in civil liberties instead. By allowing provocative clothing and persecuting perpetrators, we are progressing those things and changing the cultural norm to reflect it. If we forbid provocative clothing we would be hampering progress and civil liberties instead.

Now if you believe this progress is good or bad is a matter of political opinion as far as I am concerned repressive social norms are meant to be challenged. Progressing civil liberties is important to avoid a long range of issues such as authoritarian regimes, discrimination and repressive behaviour. As with all progress you adjust or you fall through the cracks, in this case adjusting to having hot ladies everywhere and not acting on instincts or going to jail.

Less clothing does not equate to greater civil liberties. So many counter-examples can be found for this, from the caste system in India, to hunter-gatherer tribes.

Seen through the lens of western mass media and feminist doctrine, hijabs are just male tools of repression to dominate women and strip them of liberty. Unfortunately, this doesn't accord with reality:

In many cases, the wearing of the hijab is also used to challenge Western feminist discourses which present hijab-wearing women as oppressed or silenced...Some women feel strongly that, as a form of modesty, hijab is obligatory once a girl reaches the age of puberty in order to protect her from being viewed as a sexual object rather than an individual person.

Another way I've come up with to describe my thoughts on this is the broken-windows theory. Basically, if women dress in suggestive attire/behave in ways that invite sexual attention, they basically are more likely to be viewed as sexual objects and this invites male harassment. Might seem counter-intuitive, but when petty crime such as graffiti, fare evasion, urination, etc. were strictly enforced in NYC subways, the major crimes such as murder/rape/theft/assault also went down. The BW theory itself is not bullet-proof by any measure, but the idea that smaller crimes lead to larger crimes I think translates well to the idea of laissez faire in women's attire/behavior leads to higher incidence of rape. If the woman covers up, she's less likely to be seen as a sexual object. I fail to see how this is an example of male repression, as long as women receive equal treatment in the eyes of the law. The Qu'ran makes provisions for both men and women, and the intent behind it as far as I can see is modesty/preventing harassment from others, not oppressing women to keep them servile/domesticated, which is what feminists would argue.
 

Sinny91

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I'm going to revise what I said earlier:
to this:


Rapists are always 100% responsible for their actions, but they are not necessarily responsible for their motivations.

The media does not seem to have any problems discussing the motives of serial killers and murderers, but doing that with rapists seems taboo.
.

Lol, go on then, what's your speculation/s about motivation/s?
 

Inquisitor

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Lol, go on then, what's your speculation/s about motivation/s?

I'm still looking into it. There are proximal causes and ultimate causes. The former include everything from psychopathy to wanting to dominate someone. The latter have to do with biology. So I really don't know enough yet to comment, but the stuff I mentioned earlier about social norms regarding dress/behavior would undoubtedly be beneficial in reducing rape. The US has a rape rate of 24.9 per 100,000. In Saudi Arabia, the rate is 0.14, close to 178 times lower. Those numbers are from Interpol btw. Now the justice system over there is different, rape goes extremely underreported, and statistics are hard to come by. That said, it's still far lower than in the US, because rape is also underreported here as well. The only question is, do women care enough about this issue to sacrifice a little personal liberty? There's just no question that it's very difficult to see a woman as a sex object when she's totally covered up. If all women did that, there would definitely be a lot less rape.
 

Brontosaurie

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Probably every fuck in saudi arabia is a rape by our standards

You're defending islam, that's some fucked up shit!
 

Inquisitor

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Probably every fuck in saudi arabia is a rape by our standards

You're defending islam, that's some fucked up shit!

I would say knee-jerk responses like yours are worse.
 

Sinny91

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Yea because in Saudi Arabia it's not classed as rape when a grown man fucks his 13 year old bride. You're obviously not well versed in your own argument, argument void :p
 

TBerg

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Interpol relies upon government statistics. It is impossible for a woman in Saudi Arabia to prove rape in most cases because her testimony is worth at most half of the man who is alleged to have raped her. They also have old-school cultural beliefs that place a high onus upon the woman, and she is still treated like shit while her arranged husband consummates their marriage. No real courtship, and she is expected to put out regardless of the circumstances. Fuck Saudi statistics.
 

Inquisitor

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Have you guys even critically examined your beliefs? You're basing what you know about KSA on anecdotes and stories you saw in the media. Part of the reason is once again feminism. The media goes out of its way to air stories about the abuse of women in Muslim countries. Sinny91, you especially seem to be into conspiracy theories. You think the preponderance of reporting on this issue is an accident? It's an excellent way to keep the American people's sense of outrage elevated and thus helps justify the war on terror and against ISIS as well as continued military involvement in the middle east.

TBerg, no doubt the statistics are not as accurate as they could be, but if you read up on comparative criminal justice systems, you'll see that even with a large degree of error/underreporting, rape is far lower in KSA than in western nations. The rape that does happen in KSA is mostly against foreign workers, who have little protection under Saudi law. Say what you want about the Saudis, their justice system works! Meanwhile, Sweden apparently has the highest incidence of rape in the world (very surprising to hear that), and the US is not far from the top, even with all the legal protections afforded women in this country.

Everything we in the US know about the middle east comes through the media. The stories we hear about are not fabricated, but the reporting is far from balanced. The US has a long history of manipulating public opinion going back to Edward Bernays, the so-called "father of public relations." I just finished reading a book about the history of United Fruit. Bernays worked for them and basically manipulated public opinion in favor of United Fruit in order to facilitate regime change of the Arbenz presidency in Guatemala. Arbenz had previously seized unused United Fruit banana crop land and redistributed it to the people. He was ousted from power by his enemies in Nicaragua as well as Castillo Armas.

The campaign for "human rights," "democracy," and "women's rights" overseas is nothing but a front to justify military intervention. You actually think our government gives a single shit about what happens to poor people in third-world countries? At the end of the day the only thing that counts is who controls what. The US pulled the same media stunt with Sudan, Tibet, Burma, China, Georgia, Ukraine, Afghanistan, and it never ceases to work because people don't question it. Basically, if you're an enemy of the US, you will be labelled at one point or another as anti-human rights, anti-democracy, and anti-women's rights. These 3 things have been carefully chosen to maximize public outrage.
 

redbaron

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Wow Inquisitor, your head's buried real deep in that sand.

"B-b-but statistics guys!"

Inquisitor said:
Meanwhile, Sweden apparently has the highest incidence of rape in the world.

Not rape, reported rape. 77% of which by the way, are committed by the 5% of Muslim population living there.

Sweden is one of the most (if not the most) progressive nations in the world when it comes to building support and infrastructure for sexual abuse victims. Their high report rates reflect their success in implementing support programs for victims, not actual rape frequency.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_Sweden

We should be looking to Sweden as a role model for actually making a real effort to combat the prevalence of rape through greater transparency of their system, and for broadening the scope of what constitutes sexual assault.

Look at the big picture, not just the statistics.
 

TBerg

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Dude, it is mathematically impossible to prove rape in Saudi Arabia. You also get punished along with the perpetrator of such a case is proven. I am not making this stuff up. Saudi Arabia is like IS without the Caliph. It's the same Sharia.
 

redbaron

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Dude, it is mathematically impossible to prove rape in Saudi Arabia. You also get punished along with the perpetrator of such a case is proven. I am not making this stuff up. Saudi Arabia is like IS without the Caliph. It's the same Sharia.

Yeah but the statistics are from Interpol dude. Interpol!
 

TBerg

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Something tells me Interpol doesn't have crack teams of investigators with free reign in Saudi Arabia.
 

Cherry Cola

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thanks inquisitor for demonstrating how to not statistics 101, its amazing how you think you are smarter than everyone else because you've learned how to google data which doesn't hold up under scrutiny but which you haven't bothered to look up yourself since it has to be right since it supports your view, even though it doesn't take anything but a wee bit of common sense to realize instantly that something is amiss and further investigation is required when saudi arabia has like no rape while sweden has tons

thanks for demonstrating one of the most tiresome online-debater archetypes
 

onesteptwostep

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Females are stoned or killed if they say that they were raped in Saudi though*. But then again, because the culture of submission reigns large, it is possible that they aren't as much sexual assaults in Saudi when compared to Sweden. Religion as a factor shouldn't be taken lightly, especially a religion as ritually integrated into everyday life like Islam.

*not totally sure about this

The rape that does happen in KSA is mostly against foreign workers, who have little protection under Saudi law.
This is true, I can pull up tons of sources on this.

edit: btw holy shit, the thread derailed like insane
 

Brontosaurie

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BWow Inquisitor, your head's buried real deep in that sand.

"B-b-but statistics guys!"



Not rape, reported rape. 77% of which by the way, are committed by the 5% of Muslim population living there.

Sweden is one of the most (if not the most) progressive nations in the world when it comes to building support and infrastructure for sexual abuse victims. Their high report rates reflect their success in implementing support programs for victims, not actual rape frequency.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_Sweden

We should be looking to Sweden as a role model for actually making a real effort to combat the prevalence of rape through greater transparency of their system, and for broadening the scope of what constitutes sexual assault.

Look at the big picture, not just the statistics.

meanwhile in sweden swedes think sweden has a "rape culture"
 

redbaron

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It probably isn't any worse than other western countries.

The efforts going towards decreasing the discrepancy between actual and reported rapes in Sweden have probably shocked some people, because it makes it appear as though rape has suddenly become much more commonplace. It's not, people just can't ignore it as much any more.

Paradoxically, the worst rape cultures would have some of the lowest counts of reported rape, since it's either covered up or considered acceptable.

Pretty sure if you applied the same level of support for rape victims as found in Sweden, to a country like Australia or America you'd see the rates of reported rape skyrocket there as well.

I'd say it's the most logical way to actually start preventing rape, by first uncovering the overall scope of the problem and tackling it from there. Can't really fight against what you don't know exists.
 

Seteleechete

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Sinny91

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Have you guys even critically examined your beliefs? You're basing what you know about KSA on anecdotes and stories you saw in the media. .

Nope, I'm basing my opinion on real life experiences. Many men are creeps, motivated by their own ego and sexual desire's. Ego includes power and domination (We have thousand of years experience of the male ego being dominant).

Reverse role to female exceptions, same applies.

Part of the reason is once again feminism. The media goes out of its way to air stories about the abuse of women in Muslim countries. Sinny91, you especially seem to be into conspiracy theories. You think the preponderance of reporting on this issue is an accident?

It's an excellent way to keep the American people's sense of outrage elevated and thus helps justify the war on terror and against ISIS as well as continued military involvement in the middle east.

Never let a good crisis go to waste.

American manipulation of Middle East customs is just another symptom. If those God damn Middle Eastern Muslims would stop behaving like cavemen they might just be able to start reclaiming their independence back from western hypocrisy.

But aren't we focusing this discussion of 'regular' sexual assault in the west?
 

TBerg

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onesteptwostep, you seem to have a utopian view of the power of religion and old-school cultures. You think humanity can be cured by brainwashing and severe social repression? The values are biased in favor of men raping women. What do you think is going to happen?
 

onesteptwostep

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I don't think the majority of religion is about brainwashing. Yes history does seem to teach us the horrors of religion, but secular curricula seems to forget what we gained through it. Religion does link itself with a lot of violence around the world today, but it's more linked to economic and ethnic problems rather than religion itself. Religion is more of the 'political banner' that ties people into the conflicts. The problem isn't religion but rather things that are more concrete.

As for the social problems yea, that is a problem, but it's only a problem to people outside its worldview. To them, the western way of life, with its females, is cultural decadence. Divorce? Marital affairs? Adultery? To them they reason that females under male subjugation is better. It does create order, though it clogs progress for females.

It's not really that they have values that are different for rape, it's rather more that their laws are skewed in a way that rape is harder to legally identify. Submission is a culture for them. Telling them "hey that's wrong" isn't going to do anything. To change that, you'd have to change how their entire government functions i.e. the Saudi govt.
 

Sinny91

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Yea, and the United States aren't going to stop their flow of funds to SA any time soon..
 

Lapis Lazuli

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The problem with the Cartesian paradigm:

Is this woman a cat because, maybe, she feels like a cat, or at the very least wants to look like a cat?

[BIMG]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_YKYinnCIcVw/S-pdnE2DxDI/AAAAAAAAFOY/Jj62Hu6T49Y/s1600/CatWomanPlasticSurgery.jpg[/BIMG]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jocelyn_Wildenstein
 

_whispers_

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Cracked regularly posts personal interviews with people who have interesting (for a lack of a better word) stories to tell. They have interviewed transgender people, prostitutes, and rape victims among others. I know it's a comedy website and might not be the best source of information on certain topics, but for me that was the first interview with a male rape victim I've ever seen. I think it offers certain insights. The interviewee explains about the prejudices and biases he has faced: how men can fight off women, how if he didn't want it he wouldn't be able to have an erection and how society as whole doesn't take the whole idea seriously. It's basically the same idea of "if you didn't want it you wouldn't let it happen" just for different reasons. The article points the fact that not enough people can believe that males can be raped and that's greatly discouraging victims from stepping forward.

They also have two other articles with a female interviewee and one about college campuses.
 

Sinny91

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I am intrigued about females raping men... I suppose if we want to develop this topic, that would be a way to go.
 

Sinny91

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Ermm..... I dunno, I've never raped anyone.

How would a guy get an erection during the process of being raped? I need a guy to tell me that.
 

Lapis Lazuli

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A man’s penis would react to sensitive stimuli under any circumstances, baring the master of Kama Sutra being tied up and abducted by someone without consent.

So, likewise, if person A punches person B and person B feels pain, does that mean that person B consented to being punched by person A?
 

Sinny91

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No, but I would have thought that being raped would a big enough turn off for the guy to... Turn off.

Like I'm pretty darn sure I wouldn't be getting wet whilst getting raped.
 

Ex-User (9086)

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No, but I would have thought that being raped would a big enough turn off for the guy to... Turn off.

Like I'm pretty darn sure I wouldn't be getting wet whilst getting raped.
It is a distressing problem for rape victims, the act of physical and mental resistance doesn't exclude the possibility of experiencing an orgasm or pleasure.
There's little to no control over how one's body may respond in stressful situations such as rape.

Afaik it's even a problem to be resolved at a therapy, when a victim is unable to deal with their memories predominantly because of their involuntary receptive response to the assault.

Simply put, what one feels or experiences is separate from their judgment or will.
 

Sinny91

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Ye, I suppose coming to terms with those responses would be traumatic in the aftermath...
 

Inquisitor

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Wow Inquisitor, your head's buried real deep in that sand.

"B-b-but statistics guys!"



Not rape, reported rape. 77% of which by the way, are committed by the 5% of Muslim population living there.

Sweden is one of the most (if not the most) progressive nations in the world when it comes to building support and infrastructure for sexual abuse victims. Their high report rates reflect their success in implementing support programs for victims, not actual rape frequency.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_Sweden

We should be looking to Sweden as a role model for actually making a real effort to combat the prevalence of rape through greater transparency of their system, and for broadening the scope of what constitutes sexual assault.

Look at the big picture, not just the statistics.

I will concede this one single point that Sweden's rape statistics are overblown.

However, no one here is Saudi or has lived in Saudi Arabia or has done criminology research in KSA, and therefore, I don't see how you can assert that all the statistics that are currently available are totally inaccurate and that by default, Saudi Arabia's rape rate is equal or higher to that found in western nations. You want to make fun of Interpol's stats... fine, I'm going to do more research on this and then get back to you guys.

On one hand, you're making fun of me for citing statistics, and telling me that it's impossible to find reliable and accurate stats for rape/domestic violence etc. in KSA, yet you feel totally comfortable asserting that just because we've all heard stories about Saudi women being raped and abused that this must mean that it's just as common as in western nations. That's why I say, you haven't really critically examined your beliefs. Pretty much everything that is available online in English concerning women's rights in KSA comes from organizations that are very critical of the legal system over there, and view it through the lens of a westerner (often female). I've had female Saudi students. They were happily married; their husbands were stand-up guys. They had the opportunity to pursue advanced studies. They didn't seem miserable to me. In fact, most of them were incredible students. Largely better than arab men. The State Department estimates that 16% - 50% of all women in KSA have suffered "abuse." It's stats like that that make me suspicious. Are we talking about Saudi citizens or just foreign workers who have no legal rights? If true it would mean that up to half of men will end up abusing a woman in their life. I have had a lot of male arab students. A couple were tools, most were pretty nice guys. They're kind of lazy, but abusive? Not by a long stretch. I'm not saying the system overall doesn't need change, it does, but we're only exposed to a very one-sided POV here...
 

Hadoblado

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You're right to question what we know about Saudi Arabian rape rates, but it's your argument that requires them to be lower than that of the US. The burden of proof rests on your shoulders, and the statistics you drew from were hollow.

The assumption that they are the same as everything else we know is a lot better than assuming they are better than what we know. Especially given what else we know about violations of human rights and particular medieval practices - It just doesn't make sense to make an argument based on them being surprisingly good without reasonable evidence.
 

Jennywocky

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It is a distressing problem for rape victims, the act of physical and mental resistance doesn't exclude the possibility of experiencing an orgasm or pleasure.
There's little to no control over how one's body may respond in stressful situations such as rape.

Afaik it's even a problem to be resolved at a therapy, when a victim is unable to deal with their memories predominantly because of their involuntary receptive response to the assault.

Simply put, what one feels or experiences is separate from their judgment or will.

That's my understanding.

It's a typical experience with child abuse as well -- the physical sensations can feel very positive, but you are being violated and emotionally feel abused and devastated. How to reconcile? It's why people get screwed up for a very long time from abuse.

I think I actually saw someone post that very thing on this forum within the last week in terms of an experience they had... :phear:
 

TBerg

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I don't think the majority of religion is about brainwashing. Yes history does seem to teach us the horrors of religion, but secular curricula seems to forget what we gained through it. Religion does link itself with a lot of violence around the world today, but it's more linked to economic and ethnic problems rather than religion itself. Religion is more of the 'political banner' that ties people into the conflicts. The problem isn't religion but rather things that are more concrete.

As for the social problems yea, that is a problem, but it's only a problem to people outside its worldview. To them, the western way of life, with its females, is cultural decadence. Divorce? Marital affairs? Adultery? To them they reason that females under male subjugation is better. It does create order, though it clogs progress for females.

It's not really that they have values that are different for rape, it's rather more that their laws are skewed in a way that rape is harder to legally identify. Submission is a culture for them. Telling them "hey that's wrong" isn't going to do anything. To change that, you'd have to change how their entire government functions i.e. the Saudi govt.

We are talking about Saudi Arabia, not anywhere else. You are the one who said that Saudi Arabian reality was designed to keep people in a certain way of life.

Let's see what this way of life is like:

https://www.opendemocracy.net/bobby...thoughts-on-critical-thinking-in-saudi-arabia
https://freedomhouse.org/article/re...-muslims-and?page=70&release=379#.VZNSYBNViko

This is a form of brainwashing. If you look up their way of learning the Quran, it is devoid of anything close to deep study. It is rote learning without any semblance of criticism. Whatever has been good about religion, this is not it.

It is like there is a vast cohort of slaves living in that desert land. When they question, they are punished. When they rebel, they are beat down. The Saudi Kingdom employs a vast agency of secret police to carry out this reality, just as masters in the Old South employed overseers and demanded the deputization of the government in subduing black slaves. Surely, many slaves could not conceive of a free alternative to cause them resentment. But no one would deny the true pain that was inflicted upon them at the time. And no one would deny that banning the education of black people and keeping them in menial positions had anything do do with their (sometimes feigned) incompetence.

Similarly, no one should dismiss the fact of banning female development and pushing them into subservience in inflicting real pain and real misery upon a population. Blacks knew they could be sold down the river any any moment, but they still grieved when they lost their children. Women in Saudi Arabia still go unfulfilled in the lack of real intimacy in their arranged marriages and having intimate contact being forced upon them as a result of business deals between families. Add indisputable rape into the picture, and you get something even worse if you acknowledge the human need for real intimacy at all. Humans are not tabulae rasae. Only religious radicals and leftists believe such garbage. Humans will always have basic flaws and virtues, and there is nothing Jesus, Muhammad, or Mao can do about it. They cannot drown out the human need for intimacy.
 

Yellow

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Like I'm pretty darn sure I wouldn't be getting wet whilst getting raped.
I can almost guarantee that you would, unless it was over very quickly, and/or you are being beaten/injured so badly in other areas that the pain from the rape is diminished in comparison.

The lubrication that usually accompanies arousal is a defensive measure that mitigates vaginal damage and reduces the number of sperm that will survive to fertilize you (after all, our lady fluids are acidic and mildly spermicidal).
 

onesteptwostep

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@TBerg

However the citizens love their king; there is peace. The Quran teaches to act in truth and in dignity, it teaches about the rule of peace by the caliph and its love for its citizens. The beating is there so that they would persevere and to see that their method works in the end. It's a different form of governance, a different way of life. Who is to say that that is wrong? On what criteria can you say that it is bad? Isn't social tranquility worth the hardship of life?

But, you are maybe proposing that we should throw away harmony in the name of searching truth.

---

I do disagree what you say about Jesus though (Jesus of Nazareth), though I would be against Mohammed and his policies. (Or Mao, for that matter) And that second link is something of concern, definitely.
 

TBerg

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The presence of secret police negates the whole virtue of old religion in the first place. We can always force anyone to do anything, but force does not prove virtue. It just proves that people can be forced. And if you think Saudi Arabia is harmonious, then I would just advise you of the rise of IS in their midst and the daily occurrence of terrorist attacks in the name of the Caliph. The lack of civil society means there is no civility.
 

onesteptwostep

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No, the secret police enforces those who act on their carnal inhibitions, they don't go after secular people just because they're secular, or bad people because they've committed a crime. (they let the normal police do that) This, is to superimpose your worldview on the citizens of their people.

KAS is has a massive standing army with up to date modern technology. If the Saudi's go to war against ISIS, they, ISIS, will be obliterated.

--

Just to note however, the second link you posted is a form of brainwashing, I don't deny that. However the Quran is not. (just to clarify)
 

cheese

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I will concede this one single point that Sweden's rape statistics are overblown.

However, no one here is Saudi or has lived in Saudi Arabia or has done criminology research in KSA, and therefore, I don't see how you can assert that all the statistics that are currently available are totally inaccurate and that by default, Saudi Arabia's rape rate is equal or higher to that found in western nations. You want to make fun of Interpol's stats... fine, I'm going to do more research on this and then get back to you guys.

On one hand, you're making fun of me for citing statistics, and telling me that it's impossible to find reliable and accurate stats for rape/domestic violence etc. in KSA, yet you feel totally comfortable asserting that just because we've all heard stories about Saudi women being raped and abused that this must mean that it's just as common as in western nations. That's why I say, you haven't really critically examined your beliefs. Pretty much everything that is available online in English concerning women's rights in KSA comes from organizations that are very critical of the legal system over there, and view it through the lens of a westerner (often female). I've had female Saudi students. They were happily married; their husbands were stand-up guys. They had the opportunity to pursue advanced studies. They didn't seem miserable to me. In fact, most of them were incredible students. Largely better than arab men. The State Department estimates that 16% - 50% of all women in KSA have suffered "abuse." It's stats like that that make me suspicious. Are we talking about Saudi citizens or just foreign workers who have no legal rights? If true it would mean that up to half of men will end up abusing a woman in their life. I have had a lot of male arab students. A couple were tools, most were pretty nice guys. They're kind of lazy, but abusive? Not by a long stretch. I'm not saying the system overall doesn't need change, it does, but we're only exposed to a very one-sided POV here...

Good points, including general ignorance on actual stats by both sides of this issue. One quibble: You can't tell if a person's abusive. You have no idea what happens behind closed doors. Don't assume anyone isn't abusive if your relationship isn't particularly close (eg teacher-student). This idea that socially nice people don't do terrible things has been upended time and time again by grisly news reports. This unfortunately removes support for the argument that we can dismiss the possibility of there being many abusive men from that culture. Also, as a rule, anecdotal evidence doesn't serve you well when suggesting large-scale trends. It's best used for disproving absolutes (eg, that we can tell if an acquaintance is abusive by how nice they seem in social settings) and adding nuance.

Throwing in my 2c with Hado on correlated values/cultural beliefs. If they've got a bunch of shitty beliefs/practices in one direction, it's more unlikely they'd be doing better than the rest of the world in another. Concluding that they're doing better requires extraordinary evidence, which we don't have.

Inquisitor said:
In Saudi Arabia, the rate is 0.14, close to 178 times lower. Those numbers are from Interpol btw. Now the justice system over there is different, rape goes extremely underreported, and statistics are hard to come by. That said, it's still far lower than in the US, because rape is also underreported here as well.

I really do sympathise with your intention to remain unswayed by popular opinion and look at the data. I think it's important to continue to be careful about what we're fed and look at opposing evidence, even if we risk losing social currency, ie we must be willing to lose currency in order not to fall prey to that bias. But it's also important not to be swung in the other direction by an assumption that all popular opinion is sourced from BS data and/or driven purely by status seeking (or political aims, or whatever else).

In that quote, for instance - 'underreported' isn't some standard, defined number which serves as an equaliser between countries. Underreported in both countries doesn't mean to the same extent, and it doesn't mean '178 times lower' - or lower at all - still stands. We shouldn't assume 178 times higher in the US + underreporting isn't enough to make up for the underreporting in Saudi. We really don't know what the numbers are, we'd just be guessing off what appears to be a large number, something we feel can't reasonably be beaten. That feeling isn't real data though. And as others have pointed out, the definition of rape can range from extremely narrow to extremely inclusive - so you might not even be comparing numbers on the same thing. If marital rape isn't recognised in Saudi but is in the US, then you have an entire nation of men feeling entitled to rape their wives whereas in the latter it's a criminal offense. That's potentially nation-wide rape, which would be nation-wide underreporting and certainly affect the stat gap. It isn't certainly the case, but it's a reasonable hypothesis, and if we can imagine reasonable hypotheses, we must not exclude them; we mustn't conclude prematurely. We certainly can't conclude that rape is definitely lower in Saudi, or come to other contingent conclusions (that enforcing female dress codes lowers rape rates, that their justice system works, etc).

You've jumped from a recognition that people don't necessarily know what they're talking about to not looking carefully at what you're inferring from data yourself. Yes, people need to look at facts and reality on the ground and not just listen to popular opinion (though I'd add that plenty of people *do* do this), but those facts need to be understood in context and interpreted correctly in order to draw valid conclusions.

From what you've provided alone, I don't think we can conclude anything other than far fewer rapes are reported in Saudi than in the US. (Also, what's the incidence of false rape claims in the US compared to Saudi? I imagine it's much higher in the US as the benefits would be greater - this would again inflate the numbers past the actual reality, on top of more encompassing definitions of rape. Not sure if this was reflected in the Interpol numbers.)

I do think counterpoints are important, but they need to be understood and presented carefully to avoid the trap of bias. I think this applies especially for counterpoints which are in danger of being misused as support for abusive agendas, though that's a topic for another thread.
 

TBerg

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If Wahhabism is so virtuous, then how is it that the Saudis even need so many people to enforce their will? That's what I was questioning. If they engender so much harmony into their society, then why are there terrorist attacks? It was never my contention that the Quran itself is brainwashing. We were talking about Saudi Arabia, not all Muslims.
 

The Gopher

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If true it would mean that up to half of men will end up abusing a woman in their life. I have had a lot of male arab students. A couple were tools, most were pretty nice guys. They're kind of lazy, but abusive? Not by a long stretch. I'm not saying the system overall doesn't need change, it does, but we're only exposed to a very one-sided POV here...

Okay quick statistics lesson, I have absolutely no option about the statistics of rape in any country and I frankly don't care. However something that does annoy me and I have a pet peeve about is this. Now I could be wrong I never took a statistics class but lets think about it logically.

if I have not misread up to half of all females in KSA have suffered abuse.

So as an example.

So lets say half of all females that drive cars in the USA get crashed into by males in their lifetime. Does this mean that 50% of males crash into females once in their life? Maybe, however it could also mean 25% of males crash into females twice in their lives. It could also mean 10% of males crash into females a lot. Or it could also mean that there is this one idiot who really needs his license revoked.

Do you really think that someone, of any gender abuses one person then goes "okay that was my bad dead for this life now I have to live normally..." no? Do you think everyone steals one thing and that's all they ever steal? No. So while it is possible that 50% of males abuse up to 50% of females it's more likely a smaller percentage of males abuse several females in their life.


Ye, I suppose coming to terms with those responses would be traumatic in the aftermath...

Oh yeah, because it does mess people up. They emotionally are horrified and disgusted/traumatised however physically because people are.. programed(?) to react to the sensations they might wonder why they "liked" it.

It's something people do need to understand particularly in regards to male rape (from females, although the same reaction happens with males) because apart from (or even including in some cases) the event the emotional confusion afterwards is probably the worst part.

I was wondering if we should have a thread where people can talk about this stuff or simply times they were robbed or attacked however while the forum is partly anonymous I am not sure how many people would be comfortable sharing.
 
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