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Ne vs. Ni

Architect

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New article

ENTPs’ & ENFPs’ Ne vs. INTJs’ & INFJs’ Ni

As an introverted function, INTJs’ and INFJs’ Ni operates in an intensive, singular and deep fashion. According to Jung’s description of introversion and extraversion, we can understand Ni as drawing libido (energy) away from an object and toward the subject (or the self). Ne on the other hand, as an extraverted function, operates in an extensive, plural and broad fashion. Ne propels libido toward the object and away from the subject (or self). Where Ni tends to see one singular theoretical cause, Ne tends to see a plurality of theoretical possibilities. Ni is convergent, Ne is divergent.

While not specific to INTP's, an interesting quote that relates to our Ne

What distinguishes Ne from Ni, then, might be summed as follows: INTJs and INFJs (edit Ni) are known for their insight, while ENTPs and ENFPs (edit Ne) types are known for their ingenuity.

By this then INTPs could be said to be more ingenious than insightful.
 

snafupants

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Ne: There are always other perspectives and new meanings to discover
Ni: There is always a future to realize and a significance to be revealed

http://www.erictb.info/temperament2.html

This is also useful. Jung's discussion of subject, object, and energy is the pith though.

He seizes hold of new objects and new ways with eager intensity, sometimes with extraordinary enthusiasm, only to abandon them cold-bloodedly, without regard and apparently without remembrance, as soon as their range becomes clearly defined and a promise of any considerable future development no longer clings to them.

This is Jung's description of Ne from Psychological Types. As with all extraverted types or cognitive processes, Ne shows stricter adherence to the object (consider Te alongside Ti) whereas introverted functions tinker with or extract meaning from the object before relating it back to the self. This is why Si and Se are fundamentally different - Si concerns impressions, somewhat related to sensory experience, and Se concerns raw experiences. This is also why Jung said Te is concerned with facts (objective/object focus) whereas Ti is concerned with ideas (subjective/subject focus).

Like his extraverted parallel, he [Ti user] is decisively influenced by ideas; these, however, have their origin, not in the objective data but in the subjective foundation.

It's a subtle difference but it relates back to the object/subject discussion.
 

Architect

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Good links.

Also ..
ENTPs and ENFPs, as well as many INTPs and INFPs, can be masters at spotting unmet Si needs and craftily engineering ways to fill the void. If you had to be stranded on a desert island for any period of time, you’d most definitely want an NP type in your crew.
 

EyeSeeCold

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A few examples with context would help in understanding and gaining perspective(not necessarily requesting).
 

snafupants

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A few examples with context would help in understanding and gaining perspective(not necessarily requesting).

@EyeSeeCold

Sure. To deal with humor, I'd say Ni is more postmodern in that it questions the core institutions and ideas at center. For example, shows like Seinfeld and movies like Truman Show are really about author as participant and being self-aware of the ironies embedded in the plots. Both Seinfeld and Truman Show feature eponymous characters moving around in worlds governed by the notion of entertainment - Jerry pitches the show in the show and Jim Carrey's character is filmed in the film - and yet they are the entertainment as well. As a function, Ni is more about meta-humor and irony and employing the birds-eye existential view to subvert common ideas and institutions. In contrast, Ne humor is more goofball and in the moment cleverness. Monty Python might be an example - Ne humor is perhaps less absurdist than Ni humor but Ne laughs depend on taking things out of context and pasting weird ideas into normal situations. I guess Ni humor takes more of an existential, panoramic look at everyday scenes to highlight their absurdity and Ne humor puts people and things in unexpected scenarios - the latter moves things horizontally and the former (Ni) plays this vertical game in that Ni tends to be above the world (critiquing it) and Ne is firmly entrenched in reality/object playing with it, a la Mr. Bean or something.
 
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Hmmm i have a question ask...

Does this article can mean this:
Ni with help of Se sees different possible outcomes in reality, how things could be experienced and makes the best choice out of it using Ni as divergent and to perceive the best option through insight.
Ne with help of Si has it's own storage, uses it to make conclusions and from that storage of experiences makes theoretical possibilities.

Note: take a special care of noticing what makes conclusion, since inferior function doesn't call shots
 

snafupants

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Hmmm i have a question ask...

Does this article can mean this:
Ni with help of Se sees different possible outcomes in reality, how things could be experienced and makes the best choice out of it using Ni as divergent and to perceive the best option through insight.
Ne with help of Si has it's own storage, uses it to make conclusions and from that storage of experiences makes theoretical possibilities.

Note: take a special care of noticing what makes conclusion, since inferior function doesn't call shots

@Hypocritical truth teller

Here's a recent thread I made, which nobody responded to. :slashnew::smoker:

http://intpforum.com/showthread.php?p=319702#post319702

Anyway, Ni would actually be more convergent; Ne is divergent in that it multiplies the options and possibilities. Se gives Ni huge amounts of data and Ni homes in on one or two options.

This is more speculative but I conjecture that Si extracts material from the sensory experience for Ne to tinker with and spin into new threads. The creativity needs to be predicated in something and that's where Si comes in. Jung said that Ne-Si go together as well.
 

TriflinThomas

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scorpiomover

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New article

ENTPs’ & ENFPs’ Ne vs. INTJs’ & INFJs’ Ni

As an introverted function, INTJs’ and INFJs’ Ni operates in an intensive, singular and deep fashion. According to Jung’s description of introversion and extraversion, we can understand Ni as drawing libido (energy) away from an object and toward the subject (or the self). Ne on the other hand, as an extraverted function, operates in an extensive, plural and broad fashion. Ne propels libido toward the object and away from the subject (or self). Where Ni tends to see one singular theoretical cause, Ne tends to see a plurality of theoretical possibilities. Ni is convergent, Ne is divergent.
Close.

Jung pointed out, quite rightly, that a person begins their cognitive process with their dominant function, and ends with their dominant function. In addition, INTJs on INTJf regularly have described their Ni as starting with an idea, and then seeing how it would then follow on to relate to all other facts. IME, Ni-doms seem to pick on an idea, and then take in every piece of data, and fit it in with their original idea. A good example of this is how an INFJ might construct a conspiracy theory. They might start out with an idea that everything is run by the bankers. Then they would look at every other thing they know of, and with each, interpret it as if the original idea is true. This has a habit of producing the most convoluted of arguments to suggest that certain things fit in with the original idea. However, it does present a way of perceiving things, as if everything is consistent with the original conspiracy theory. Thus, it becomes most difficult to dissuade the Ni-dom of the conspiracy, because from their perspective, "everything fits". Thus, the famed ability of an Ni-dom, to find a reasonably consistent and "true" answer, to almost any question.

As the Ni-theory reveals itself to be consistently true across all pieces of data, in some fashion or other, it then makes sense, that were one to take that Ni-theory as true, one could act on that basis, and achieve fairly consistent results. Hence, the famous practical ability of Ni-doms.

IME, Ne looks at one specific event or detail at a time, but looks at it from many different perspectives. The result is that one can clearly see which additional details are true for most perspectives, and thus showing which additional details are objective, and which additional details are true for some but false for others, showing which additional details are subjective.

When applied multiple times to multiple events over time, one notices that the same 2 details are objective for all events that have at least one of those objective details, thus revealing a pattern, where one objective detail is present, the other is also present. This reveals an objective pattern in the nature of reality. Hence the noted pattern-finding skill of xNTPs.

While not specific to INTP's, an interesting quote that relates to our Ne

What distinguishes Ne from Ni, then, might be summed as follows: INTJs and INFJs (edit Ni) are known for their insight, while ENTPs and ENFPs (edit Ne) types are known for their ingenuity.

By this then INTPs could be said to be more ingenious than insightful.
Only if INTPs are more ingenious than ENTJs (Ne-aux vs Ni-aux) and ENTJs are more insightful than INTPs (Ni-aux vs Ne-aux). Would your experience say that is the case? If not, then what would your experience of INTPs vs ENTJs be, in regards to who is more insightful, and who is more ingenious.
 

snafupants

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@scorpiomover

Perhaps Architect meant that Ni-dom is more prone to insightful comments because of its modus operandi and Ne-dom generally makes ingenious connections because of its functioning. That's not an ironclad fiat but more a rule of thumb, right? Maybe a way of encapsulating each.
 

snafupants

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It wasn't very conversationally stimulating. When writing your posts, I suggest that you put all your questions at the end of your posts.

I definitely foresaw that reaction. Meh, I suppose I like to jump right in myself. :king-twitter::D
 

Architect

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Only if INTPs are more ingenious than ENTJs (Ne-aux vs Ni-aux) and ENTJs are more insightful than INTPs (Ni-aux vs Ne-aux). Would your experience say that is the case? If not, then what would your experience of INTPs vs ENTJs be, in regards to who is more insightful, and who is more ingenious.

Good point, admittedly I threw out the comment without a lot of thought. I don't know that I've known a lot of ENTJ's, or that I've known some but didn't identify them as such. I did know one guy who was an ENTX. I could characterize him as more insightful, and myself as more ingenious. In particular he was more into people than me.

Maybe we can look at public figures. The only I can think of is surely another ENTP - Adam Savage.
 
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@Hypocritical truth teller

Here's a recent thread I made, which nobody responded to. :slashnew::smoker:

http://intpforum.com/showthread.php?p=319702#post319702

Anyway, Ni would actually be more convergent; Ne is divergent in that it multiplies the options and possibilities. Se gives Ni huge amounts of data and Ni homes in on one or two options.

This is more speculative but I conjecture that Si extracts material from the sensory experience for Ne to tinker with and spin into new threads. The creativity needs to be predicated in something and that's where Si comes in. Jung said that Ne-Si go together as well.


In that thread of yours...you will now have to correct me if i am missing a point...
What i understood is that you proposed some methods of typing.
Finding extroverted function because they are easier to spot being extroverted and then find their pairs?
 

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Another take, from the same site, on the point

Ne-Si vs. Ni-Se: Myers-Briggs Function Pairs

Ne involves a propensity to survey and gather ideas (N) from without (E). As an extraverted function, it can be seen as sacrificing some level of depth in favor of breadth and extensivity. It serves to expand the number of imagined options, connections, and possibilities. Because of its divergent, open-ended nature, NPs are generally perceived as open-minded, since they cannot help but entertain other people’s perspectives. NPs also enjoy entertaining hypotheticals, bouncing from one theory or idea to another.

NJs use Ni as either their dominant (INJs) or auxiliary function (ENJs). They generally exhibit good conscious control over its workings. For SPs, whose Ni is either tertiary (ISPs) or inferior (ESPs), it tends to function more unconsciously. Because it falls into the lower half of their functional stack, SPs tend to have mixed sentiments toward Ni.

Ni is more convergent than Ne, gradually moving toward a single comprehensive vision or solution. Ni is expressed outwardly either through Fe or Te. Unlike Ne, which is outwardly scattered and disjointed, the outward expression of Ni, since is far more linear and streamlined. NJs prefer to penetrate deeply into a single issue rather than superficially bouncing from one topic to the next. NJs are not immune to long stories or monologues, as their Ni, when given the chance, will continue to penetrate a topic until it has been well-fleshed out.

I admit I'm having a hard time discriminating these differences. Needs more thinking.
 

snafupants

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In that thread of yours...you will now have to correct me if i am missing a point...
What i understood is that you proposed some methods of typing.
Finding extroverted function because they are easier to spot being extroverted and then find their pairs?

@Hypocritical truth teller

That's basically true. Extraverted functions are, as a rule, easier to correctly identify in real time than introverted functions. Based on that data, identifying, say, Te or Fe will alert the observer to Fi and Ti, respectively, because Te-Fi and Fe-Ti are function pairs. It's a helpful deductive typing strategy because Ti, Fi, and Ni can sometimes look the same to an outsider.
 
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@Hypocritical truth teller

That's basically true. Extraverted functions are, as a rule, easier to correctly identify in real time than introverted functions. Based on that data, identifying, say, Te or Fe will alert the observer to Fi and Ti, respectively, because Te-Fi and Fe-Ti are function pairs. It's a helpful deductive typing strategy because Ti, Fi, and Ni can sometimes look the same to an outsider.


Depends again...introverts focused internally can maybe better recognize their introverted function. But that depends on their extroverted function. If it's Ne they won't because Ne seeks for external confirmation.
But i guess in mind set, when people type themselves, they mix things up and go "i wanna be objective" and then look and their outside behavior and ask people how they see them. And they see their extroverted function.
 

snafupants

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Depends again...introverts focused internally can maybe better recognize their introverted function. But that depends on their extroverted function. If it's Ne they won't because Ne seeks for external confirmation.
But i guess in mind set, when people type themselves, they mix things up and go "i wanna be objective" and then look and their outside behavior and ask people how they see them. And they see their extroverted function.

@Hypocritical truth teller

That would get you to the same place. By knowing the two extraverted functions in the functional stack (e.g., Te and Se), you would know the introverted functions (i.e., Fi and Ni) and, therefore, the type! Well, at least you would know the functions that s/he uses, which would severely narrow down the options. So in this example, it might plausibly be an INTJ or ENTJ or something like that. It could theoretically be XSFP but if you can't tell the difference between XNTJ and XSFP you're in real trouble. :D

We can move this discussion to my thread, where it might be more applicable, if these tangents are irritating Architect.
 
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@Hypocritical truth teller

That would get you to the same place. By knowing the two extraverted functions in the functional stack (e.g., Te and Se), you would know the introverted functions (i.e., Fi and Ni) and, therefore, the type! Well, at least you would know the functions that s/he uses, which would severely narrow down the options. So in this example, it might plausibly be an INTJ or ENTJ or something like that. It could theoretically be XSFP but if you can't tell the difference between XNTJ and XSFP you're in real trouble. :D

We can move this discussion to my thread, where it might be more applicable, if these tangents are irritating Architect.

Which from the point of knowing functions brings us to finding out the strength or presence of each function aka order.
 
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Yeah the order's important but moving from sixteen to basically two types is profoundly helpful.

Yeah i get your point...it's reducing options. But it's already helpful if you are really really sure about only one function. It's right away easier to place that function in your type because then you probably know how strongly u use it.
 

snafupants

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Yeah i get your point...it's reducing options. But it's already helpful if you are really really sure about only one function. It's right away easier to place that function in your type because then you probably know how strongly u use it.

The two typing methods aren't mutually exclusive.
 

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Best explanation of Ni rests in the last link (quoted beneath)


http://personalityjunkie.com/10/extraverted-intuition-ne-vs-introverted-intuition-ni/ (Ne vs Ni)
<--see whole link

http://personalityjunkie.com/10/extraverted-intuition-ne/ (Ne)
See whole link

http://personalityjunkie.com/10/introverted-intuition-ni/ (Ni)
See whole link

http://personalitycafe.com/entp-18/solitarywalker-s-entp-profile-327/
quoted beneath (Ne)
Whenever Intuition predominates, a peculiar and unmistakable psychology results. Because extraverted intuition is oriented by the object, there is a marked dependence on external situations, but it is altogether different from the dependence of the sensation type. The intuitive is never to be found in the world of accepted reality-values, but he has a keen nose for anything new and in the making.”
Intuition, in the Jungian sense of the term is an irrational function, or unconscious. Its primary focus is on collection of information. Intuition by the nature of itself is abstract and therefore closer in tune with the realm of imagination than with the realm of the senses.

Through these filters the outer world is incepted for us. Thus, an Extroverted Perceiver tends to be flexible in his perceptions, yet the Extroverted Judger tends to incept the environment in terms of the pre-existing concrete symbols. As we notice that the Extroverted Judgers tend to rely much more on the pre-established terms for their understanding of ideas. As for instance, it is very common for a Judger to say that they could not imagine the concept of yellow without the word yellow, yet very uncommon for a dominant Extroverted perceiver to make the same claim. For this reason, we shall argue that the Extroverted perceivers, with a slight exception in favor of Introverted Perceivers, tend to collect the soundest information. The Extroverted Perceiver is different from the Introverted Perceiver in the respect that he confronts the external environment directly, whilst the Introverted perceiver must first filter the environment through the apparatus of his own inner perceptions and then shift onto the Extroverted Judgment in order to make a decision. And only at that point he will be able to interact with the outer environment. Because of this, the Introverted perceivers tend to be the least spontaneous, as their access to the outer environment is contingent upon their inner perceptions which are remote from the immediate environment. Yet, the Extroverted perceivers, by contrast, which could be rightly deemed as an animus to the Introverted Perceivers tend to be the most spontaneous. As aforementioned, the reason for this is that they do not require contemplation for direct action, as their perceptions are always in tune with the outer world. In this regard they are even more action oriented than the dominant Extroverted Judging types, who require a plan of action, or external decisions in order to turn their wheels. Yet the Extroverted Perceiver deals with the outer world unconsciously, as the perceiving functions are by definition unconscious. Thus, here again we notice that the EP type requires least contemplation to prepare for action of all 4. This leads to the sense of quickness the EP types tend to be renowned for. We should note that Extroverted perception can very easily be misunderstood for hyperactivity and inherent inability to focus because information tends to be incepted into the mind of an EP in a torrential fashion. As there is no grid of extroverted judgment in the outer world of the EP.

http://personalitycafe.com/infj-12/solitarywalker-s-infj-profile-375/
quoted beneath (Ni)
I.Introverted Intuition
“Introverted Intuition is directed to the inner object, a term that might justly be applied to the contents of the unconscious. The relation of inner objects to consciousness is entirely analogous to that of outer objects, though their reality is not physical, but psychic. They appear to intuitive perception as subjective images of things which, though not to be met with in the outside world, constitute the contents of the unconscious, and of the collective unconscious in particular.”


Introverted Intuition is an irrational function by the previously established definition. It does not rely on conscious scrutiny for assessment, but to something most closely in tune to the colloquial notion of 'hunches'. Since such Intuitive force is intuitively aimed, unlike the Extroverted Intuition, it requires very little external stimulus. We also know that Intuition is an information collecting faculty--as it is a perceiving function. Here we are struck by a paradox that Intuition is primarily concerned with collection of information, yet at the same time seems to rely little on the external stimulus. This leads us to question whether such an information collecting faculty truly does suffice to adequately collect information. Does it fall to the same malady Jung has evinced in Introverted Sensing?


"Even with only a slight increase in the power of the unconscious, the subjective component of sensation becomes so alive that it almost completely obscures the influence of the object. If the object is a person, he feels completely devalued, while the subject has an illusory conception of reality, which in pathological cases goes so far that he is no longer able to distinguish between the real object and the subjective perceptions....Actually he lives in a mythological world, where men, animals, locomotives, houses, rivers, and mountains appear either as benevolent deities or as malevolent demons. That they appear thus to him never enters his head, though that is just the effect they have on his judgments and actions. He judges and acts as though he had such powers to deal with; but this begins to strike him only when he discovers that his sensations are totally different from reality."

What, one may wonder, accounts for such a striking difference between the object itself and the IJ's perception thereof? Could it be due to the fact that this perception is Introverted? Namely that it defines the object by the internal agenda and the internal agenda itself is rarely clearly pronounced as it is an irrational function. Thus, if this were the case, the way the object is perceived is directly filtered through the scope of the introverted perception. For this reason, the objects are not assessed in terms of their own validity, but in terms of how they relate to the perceiver. Therefore, the perceiver tends to assume that the objects are much like himself, as he sees locomotives and animals as demons or benevolent deities.

The accentuation here was on the locomotives and animals because the Introverted Sensing type, the type that the previous quotation meant to depict is focused primarily on concrete things--or sensations. Hence, he anthropomorphizes concrete entities. Or assumes that the objects in themselves have much to do with his own personal qualities. This is precisely the reason why we often have seen eyes on the Moon, the nose on the sun, and the Sword in the hands of the cloud. So our mythologies have compelled us to see!

However, since Introverted Intuition, the function by which the INFJ is led is abstract, it tends not to see the external world in this fashion. However, the relationship it has to abstract perceptions is indeed much analogous to the relationship Introverted Sensing has to concrete data. Thus, Introverted Sensing anthropomorphizes the physical world, Introverted Intuition, almost wholly without a doubt, anthropomorphizes abstractions and ideas. For this reason it is not uncommon for INJ philosophers and scientists to be observed deeming some ideas as wicked and others as benevolent without having any reasonable explanations for such taxonomy. That is because there truly is not an explanation for such a thing, as judgments of the like reflect more about them personally rather than about the matter they have commented on and therefore often serves as evidence of their personal biases and prejudices.



Because the way they interact with the world is necessarily influenced by their subjective perceptions, they are automatically drawn to focus most intensely on ideas that their unconscious minds tend to gravitate towards most. Such ideas soon flourish to be of solid and constant conscious interest in which their whole being shall be thoroughly imbued. This is an allusion to an earlier remark concerning how INJs tend to see abstract ideas as similar to themselves due to the anthropomorphic quality of introverted perception. This is more so for the INFJ than the INTJ as the former has a more personal and less logically rigorous approach to life. Conversely, ideas that are not in tune with their unconscious predilections, will be paid little heed to. This is where the INJ stands in sharp contrast with their Extroverted Intuitive counterparts who lack focus of perception because they are forced to confront all external phenomena at once. Introverted Intuition, however, has a distinct idea which entities are worthy of perception. To an outside observer, such judgments often appear arbitrary, yet this is more than likely the case because such Intuitive perceptions have a lot more to do with the inner life of the perceiver rather than the external world. The subject distinctly holds primacy over the object, and the Intuition itself has a clear notion of what is worthy of focus.


"Like sensation, intuition has its subjective factor, which is suppressed as much as possible in extraverted attitude but is the decisive factor in the intuition of the introvert. Although his intuition may be stimulated by external objects, it does not concern itself with external possibilities but with what the external object has released within him."

Thus, unlike the Extroverted Intuition that is concerned with collection of all ideas and assesses them based on how such ideas influence the external environment, the Introverted Intuition assesses such hunches based on its internal agenda and is interested strictly in ideas that befit the previously established agenda. Whilst Extroverted Intuition requires continuous stimulation, Introverted Intuition runs on itself. The Extrovert will be forced to engage himself in abstract external activities, such as writing or debating to maintain his world of ideas, yet the Introverted Intuition requires no more than a solitary retreat. The more peaceful the environment, the better, to a greater degree the vivid imagination shall flourish. Thus for an INJ, it would hardly be hyperbolic to claim that the creative energy derives literally from nowhere.

"The extravert would say: "Reality does not exist for him, he gives up to fruitless fantasies." The perception of the images of the unconscious, produced in such inexhaustible abundance by the creative energy of life, is of course fruitless from the standpoint of immediate utility. But may give life a new potential, this function, which to the outside world is the strangest of all, is as indispensable to the total psychic economy as is the corresponding human type to the psychic life of a people. Had this type not existed, there would have been no prophets in Israel."

Incidentally, here we touch basis upon the notion of the introverted perceiving faculty to anthropomorphize. For this reason ideas generated by these types appear flattering to men, as they seem to suggest to us that the greatest possible essences of the universe have much to do with our tastes and prejudices. No doubt, the greatest religions of the world are thoroughly imbued in personalities of their initial propounders. As the God of Christianity is much similar to Jesus, of Islam--Muhammad and respectively Moses for Judaism. There also could hardly be a doubt that many of the most influential prophets in those religions were INJs. More of them were more likely to be INFJs than INTJs because the Extroverted Feeling aspect strongly gravitates towards presenting their vision to the common folk and making it part of societal life in a very systematic fashion. But this is a note to be expounded on further in our next section on Extroverted Feeling.

Such ideas of the Introverted perception are highly abstract as this type is most intuitive of all--due to the intensification factor of introversion. As a matter of this discovery, the INFJ turns out to be the most intuitive of all types because Feeling imposes less limitations on the perception than Thinking. Feeling is not a tough-minded function and is therefore more easily diluted by foreign elements than Thinking. For this reason Extroverted Feeling contains less of the judging element than Extroverted Thinking and therefore countervails the perception of Introverted Intuition to a much lower degree. Incidentally the perceptions of the INJ are ineffable and cannot be properly transmuted into the realm of concrete phenomena. When they do attempt to, their initial hunches are either grotesquely distorted or lost altogether. However, the Intuitionist himself appears much content with merely having the hunches that he has as they adequately guide him, even if he cannot duly explain it to others. Once more this is even more fitting to the INFJ as he relies less on objective assessment of his ideas than the INTJ for the reason mentioned earlier.
 
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