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Ex-INTPs' support group

walfin

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Based on the results of a personality test I just (re)took, it seems that I have become an INFP.

It's only one test. But anyway I've felt the shift for a number of years now. I took it just to confirm it, basically. And yes, of course, I kinda knew what the answers meant (personality tests are so predictable after you've taken a few), but I answered the questions as honestly as I could.

And so. Given that I can't quite call this place my home any longer, I guess there must be others' who are in the same boat. Now that I am an F I can empathise with them.

So. Former INTPs. How did you all feel after you realised you were no longer INTP? What did you become, and why do you think your personality changed?

:treeswing:

Jung Test Results

Introverted (I) 80.77% Extroverted (E) 19.23%
Intuitive (N) 54.05% Sensing (S) 45.95%
Feeling (F) 53.13% Thinking (T) 46.88%
Perceiving (P) 72.73% Judging (J) 27.27%

Your type is: INFP

INFP - "Questor". High capacity for caring. Emotional face to the world. High sense of honor derived from internal values. 4.4% of total population.
 

Inappropriate Behavior

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Do you think it'd possible that you were always INFP but were for some reason supressing your Fi while taking these tests in the past? One of the hardest things to do while taking these tests is to not answer what you want/wish to be rather than what you are. How mature would you say you were when you first took the test? Were you friends with any INTPs that maybe you were on some level trying to emulate?
 

walfin

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Do you think it'd possible that you were always INFP but were for some reason supressing your Fi while taking these tests in the past? One of the hardest things to do while taking these tests is to not answer what you want/wish to be rather than what you are. How mature would you say you were when you first took the test? Were you friends with any INTPs that maybe you were on some level trying to emulate?

Nope. Seriously doubt it.

I don't know how maturity can be gauged, so I've no idea. I took online tests periodically. Once or twice a year perhaps. It was INTP each time and I always tried to answer the questions as honestly as I could.

Neither did I have any INTP friends (at least, even if they were they didn't tell me and I didn't think they were), nor did I ever want to emulate anyone. I know I've felt a change, which is not entirely for the better 'cuz at the same time I've been feeling my brain get more sluggish.
 

Architect

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You don't become an INFP; you don't change type. Either you are or you aren't. As said elsewhere the tests are unreliable, a better gauge is to examine the functions against your present and past behavior. If you find you are an INFP that just means you always were one but didn't know it.
 

Tony3d

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INTP is Ti/Fe
INFP is Te/Fi

That isn't a slight shift, that is a total rebuild from the foundation up... That makes you an external thinker and totally takes away that external feeling wild beast that is typical of feely type INTPs and replaces it with a controled and calm inner feeling.

INTPs are logically independent, and the more feely ones need external emotional validation.

INFPs are logically external and require validation in that area, but are emotionally independent and strong.

I don't think that switch is possible... Have you looked at ISFJ? I think that is far more likely in my opinion. ISFJ feelings lurk deep inside of an INTP, or at least inside of me. They are at least still Ti/Fe.


But just my opinion, I am no expert.
 

Jennywocky

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INTP is Ti/Fe
INFP is Te/Fi

That isn't a slight shift, that is a total rebuild from the foundation up... That makes you an external thinker and totally takes away that external feeling wild beast that is typical of feely type INTPs and replaces it with a controled and calm inner feeling.

INTPs are logically independent, and the more feely ones need external emotional validation.

INFPs are logically external and require validation in that area, but are emotionally independent and strong.

I don't think that switch is possible...

That's why people are suggesting that he might have always been INFP, but with some INTP traits.

I would be surprised if an ISFJ would somehow think they were an INTP. It's not likely. (I do know an ISFJ who thinks she's an INTJ, but her posts are consistently and cliche ISFJ... but that's the only example I can think of that I've seen.)
 

walfin

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I have taken a cognitive function test too and came out high on both Ti and Fi. So I don't see why this is so impossible.

We can't take "type doesn't change" as the gospel truth. An axiom is proven or disproven based on empirical data, and that should include our personal experiences.
 

Jennywocky

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I have taken a cognitive function test too and came out high on both Ti and Fi. So I don't see why this is so impossible.

Well, in type theory it makes for inconsistent behavior -- the two are in direct conflict, much more than Ti/Fe or Fi/Te, which are complementary. You are either using one form of logic, or you are using another form of logic.

I've met a few ITPs with high Fi and their behavior is remarkably inconsistent and you never know what you'll get. One moment they'll make a case that is sound similar to a standard INTP reply, that is detached; then the next moment they're gutting you like a fish based on some personal passion, still very logical in implementation but with a non-neutral foundation. It's hard to predict. (I don't know where you fall into things.)

I always have trouble relying on Fi, because my Ti judges it as "biased." That's the big problem. The two are at loggerheads. I only get around it by creating a simulacrum of Fi via my Ti -- I tell myself that it is natural and rational for me to have my own personal views and feelings and that these are legitimate, and once I create a Ti-carved space for Fi, then I can permit my feelings to live in that area and offer judgments.

We can't take "type doesn't change" as the gospel truth. An axiom is proven or disproven based on empirical data, and that should include our personal experiences.

I guess the question is whether there is something of "us" that remains us indelibly throughout our lives, or whether we can become entirely different people, meaning continuity of identity is not a legitimate given.

In my personal experience, though, people do retain a consistent core. *shrug* it's just all the behaviors and words and experiences we layer overtop that confuses matters. We might never even know what the complete core is.
 

EyeSeeCold

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We can't take "type doesn't change" as the gospel truth. An axiom is proven or disproven based on empirical data, and that should include our personal experiences.

You make a good point, but those tests, including MBTI in general, hardly separates cognitive type from personality. So sure, your personality probably changed, but it doesn't have any relevance to the idea that your cognition and psychology is configured a certain way.
 

Cavallier

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I moved this thread as Sibera is meant for threads that need their vibrant tendrils of choking growth to be stunted.

You are now in the welcoming arms of MBTI and Typology.
 

walfin

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Haha is this the first thread ever to be moved out of Siberia?

Jennywocky said:
I've met a few ITPs with high Fi and their behavior is remarkably inconsistent and you never know what you'll get. One moment they'll make a case that is sound similar to a standard INTP reply, that is detached; then the next moment they're gutting you like a fish based on some personal passion, still very logical in implementation but with a non-neutral foundation. It's hard to predict. (I don't know where you fall into things.)
Yes.

I always have trouble relying on Fi, because my Ti judges it as "biased." That's the big problem. The two are at loggerheads. I only get around it by creating a simulacrum of Fi via my Ti -- I tell myself that it is natural and rational for me to have my own personal views and feelings and that these are legitimate, and once I create a Ti-carved space for Fi, then I can permit my feelings to live in that area and offer judgments.
Also.

Jennywocky said:
I guess the question is whether there is something of "us" that remains us indelibly throughout our lives, or whether we can become entirely different people, meaning continuity of identity is not a legitimate given.

In my personal experience, though, people do retain a consistent core. *shrug* it's just all the behaviors and words and experiences we layer overtop that confuses matters. We might never even know what the complete core is.
Wasn't there some story about a ship in which every plank was changed?

Yeah I suppose most people do retain a consistent core. That doesn't rule out gradual, slight changes.

Then again, I turned 25 only last year, and supposedly that's when major brain development stops. So I think it's especially probable that my type has shifted in the past 5-6 years. It should be quite possible that a lot of the under-25 INTPs here may not be INTPs in the future.
 

Jennywocky

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Wasn't there some story about a ship in which every plank was changed?

yup. is it the same ship, or not?

But the same analogy goes for large portions of our physical body too, I suppose, with cells dying and being replaced by new ones.

Yeah I suppose most people do retain a consistent core. That doesn't rule out gradual, slight changes.

I always have difficulty knowing whether a change is becoming something you weren't yesterday, or just removing something that was obfuscating who you really were. I'm still the me I was 20 years ago, in many ways; but I also look remarkably different. For one, I was very hyper logical and very closed off; nowadays I'm much more open and seek for external stimulation to some degree... I exude some traits more common with ENTPs and don't feel like I possess the same amount of focus I used to. I'm not sure what to make of that.

Then again, I turned 25 only last year, and supposedly that's when major brain development stops. So I think it's especially probable that my type has shifted in the past 5-6 years. It should be quite possible that a lot of the under-25 INTPs here may not be INTPs in the future.

I find that challenging new situations (like a new career, or a marriage, or having children) will stretch someone as well in ways they can't really be sure of, even if someone still thinks they're of the same general type. I mean, you're either growing and cycling through and changing, or you're dying and static...
 

xbox

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your mother did too.
 

The Gopher

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To get back to the first question.

If you didn't or even if you did change type it doesn't change who you are by discovering you changed type. How you act and feel shouldn't change due to a test saying. "it's more likely you are this type" You won't become any different from what you were a second before you discovered the fact. It just might be comforting. Besides who says the test is right :D
 

walfin

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To get back to the first question.

If you didn't or even if you did change type it doesn't change who you are by discovering you changed type. How you act and feel shouldn't change due to a test saying. "it's more likely you are this type" You won't become any different from what you were a second before you discovered the fact. It just might be comforting. Besides who says the test is right :D

Umhm. Yeah. It's just confirmation, in fact, not even quite.

And assuming it's for real, an ex-INTP needs some support...given that I've become an F type now :p
 

Tony3d

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So, are you saying that you are actually Ti/Fi and not Ti/Fe or Te/Ti?

How would you explain your Fe or Te, are they existant?
 

Amagi82

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I find the whole Myers-Briggs test fits me like a glove, largely because I am extremely solid in each of the categories. The test is a guideline for understanding people, not an immutable rule, and the closer someone gets to the 50% mark in each category, the less the results fit.
 

walfin

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So, are you saying that you are actually Ti/Fi and not Ti/Fe or Te/Ti?

How would you explain your Fe or Te, are they existant?

They probably don't work very well given how socially awkward I am.
 

walfin

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http://community.livejournal.com/_infp_/324583.html said:
Tips to Distinguish INFP from INTP
I wish I could say where I read this idea from. I want to say it was in an Enneagram forum, but I'm not the originator. I'm just passing on my version of the story.

Both INTPs and INFPs wear "coats" to distance themselves from the public. The difference is that the INFP wears spikes and armor. They may even slip into a persona to deal with the public. Others may find INFPs disagreeable or find them hard to like as a result. INTPs wear huge "coats" too but they are fluffy and soft, voluminous coats. Think "Michelin Man"(sp?)! INTPs are generally more socially liked than INFPs because of the softer exterior, the gentle let-downs and harmonious arguments. They do verbal aikido real well to keep people at arm's length. This was one primary way I knew I wasn't an INTP even though I test very close to "T" whenever I test. Well that and the INTP indulgence in "ritual". My sister is a true INTP and she doesn't like change or even taking a different route home.

Just thought I would share this.

So next time you doubt if you wonder if you are a true INFP or INTP, ask yourself how many casual friends do you have and if you wear "spikes" or "soft-bulges"?
I saw this somewhere...which seems strange.

I should've thought that feelers were more the warm huggable type.
 

Smooch

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I used to always test INTP then finally after reading into the different functions, realized my dominant function is Fi, not Ti. INTP's have that Fe which would make it easier for them to deal with other people's feelings...where as the INFP is concerned primarily with their feelings.

It's easy for an INFP to test as a Ti because of the time we spend analyzing our feelings, making us think we're being objective when we're not... I also think the infp and intp would be interested in similar ideas, but for different reasons. (Philosophy and also the social sciences; if you like "people systems")

Personally I think the reason I like this forum so much is because of Te. Half the time I just lurk .-. I like to read the debates.
 

Hadoblado

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Introverted (I) 80.77% Extroverted (E) 19.23%
Intuitive (N) 54.05% Sensing (S) 45.95%
Feeling (F) 53.13% Thinking (T) 46.88%
Perceiving (P) 72.73% Judging (J) 27.27%

Your type is: INFP

INFP - "Questor". High capacity for caring. Emotional face to the world. High sense of honor derived from internal values. 4.4% of total population.

Your results are so close to a null read it's sort of pointless to make conclusions based on them alone. You have mentioned that you looked into your functions? Are any of them more prominent in your thought, behaviour, and motives than the others?

I am another ex-intp in the respect that I though I was INTP, but now do not know what I am. I've been thinking about posting a thread with some material to garner some reads from the more knowledgeable people on the forum, but haven't got around to it, and don't particularly welcome the stress of a public outing. If you have the time/will, you could think of doing the same?
 

ILYGodney

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I used to think I was an INTP. Then I learned I was an Fi/Te user.
 

walfin

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Actually it really sucks that I am now an INFP.
I greatly preferred to be INTP.
There was so much more certainty. It was so much easier to feel that life was a matter of probabilities, that everything made sense if only one had enough data.
And of course there is the computer programming which lends such a wonderful certainty to the INTP's world.
You just get things instantaneously. No step by step this is right because of that shit. It's right because you know it is.
That's not to say I can't converse in C++ or Java anymore. It's like riding a bike. You never lose the skill.
Being an idealist sucks big time.
Gradually you feel you are drawn to principles that you can't justify on the grounds of it being correct. You find the need to relate it to some moral shit because you can't justify it. It makes you feel incredibly stupid. Like, it must be the case that you're wooly and slow because you can't think of the reasons for believing in something.
The S/N dichotomy is the one that's correlated to IQ. But the T dimension makes you feel smart.
Without thinking that you feel smart.
 

Nick

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I find the whole Myers-Briggs test fits me like a glove, largely because I am extremely solid in each of the categories. The test is a guideline for understanding people, not an immutable rule, and the closer someone gets to the 50% mark in each category, the less the results fit.

This is true, as other's I've seen tested, some were very in the middle, so it seems like typing them doesn't work too well.

Now when I describe myself to other people that know about the MBTI, I say I'm a 'strong' INTP, which means that when I take different tests that display percentages of each type, I always lean strongly towards the I/N/T/P area.

Others, on the other hand, might have results like you @walfin and I'd put you right now as an IxxP. Maybe over time you've become well balanced, a well rounded person, still strong in the Introverted and Perceiving area, but both neither weak nor excelling with Intuition/Sensing -and- Feeling/Thinking.
 

walfin

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This is true, as other's I've seen tested, some were very in the middle, so it seems like typing them doesn't work too well.

Now when I describe myself to other people that know about the MBTI, I say I'm a 'strong' INTP, which means that when I take different tests that display percentages of each type, I always lean strongly towards the I/N/T/P area.

Others, on the other hand, might have results like you walfin and I'd put you right now as an IxxP. Maybe over time you've become well balanced, a well rounded person, still strong in the Introverted and Perceiving area, but both neither weak nor excelling with Intuition/Sensing -and- Feeling/Thinking.

ISFP is even worse.

Darn, if only it could've been the other two traits which became "well balanced".

I'd never want to be an ENTJ, but being able to be a pretend extrovert and being sufficiently assertive would be nice.

INTP really is the best type in so many ways. Kids, you don't cherish it till you lose it.

:babytap:
 

Reluctantly

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WAFFLES

There was so much more certainty. It was so much easier to feel that life was a matter of probabilities, that everything made sense if only one had enough data.
And of course there is the computer programming which lends such a wonderful certainty to the INTP's world.
You just get things instantaneously. No step by step this is right because of that shit. It's right because you know it is.

I thought that was how INTJs are supposed to think. Not that I really care anyway, since everybody seems to have their own idea of what the functions are, yet everybody talks as if they know what's what.

Actually it really sucks that I am now an INFP.
I greatly preferred to be INTP.

INTP really is the best type in so many ways. Kids, you don't cherish it till you lose it.

If MBTI is a cult of personality, then I'd say this absolutely makes you INTP. Congratulations, now you can continue feeling good about yourself for reasons other INTPs will disavow as INTP to begin with.



"
Also, you can't be Ti/Fe and Fi/Te, Mr. Waffles. They are different in the theory and the theory says they don't compliment one another and that you can't be both and you only have one type. So think long and hard, Mr. Bond, and pick your poison.

trololol.
"
 

scorpiomover

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I thought that was how INTJs are supposed to think. Not that I really care anyway, since everybody seems to have their own idea of what the functions are, yet everybody talks as if they know what's what.
INTJs are Ni-dominant. Thinking is their auxiliary function, which supports their dominant intution.

However, we live in a world that, for good or bad, chooses to value thinking, and chooses to dismiss intuition as nothing more than hocus-pocus. So if intuitive-dominants were to be open about their being primarily reliant on intuition, their contributions would be de-valued. As they also have Te as an auxiliary function, which helps their intuition, their Te tells them that if they admit the truth, then people wouldn't listen to their intuitions. We also live in a highly integrated world, where to get things done, you need everyone else to go along with your ideas. So their Te tells them they have to present themselves as being primarily thinkers, in order to be listened to, and achieve Te results in the real world.

Not saying the world is right. Only saying that the way the world's values are nowadays, INTJs have to misrepresent themselves to get things done, and their Te makes them want to get things done.
 

Reluctantly

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INTJs are Ni-dominant. Thinking is their auxiliary function, which supports their dominant intution.

However, we live in a world that, for good or bad, chooses to value thinking, and chooses to dismiss intuition as nothing more than hocus-pocus. So if intuitive-dominants were to be open about their being primarily reliant on intuition, their contributions would be de-valued. As they also have Te as an auxiliary function, which helps their intuition, their Te tells them that if they admit the truth, then people wouldn't listen to their intuitions. We also live in a highly integrated world, where to get things done, you need everyone else to go along with your ideas. So their Te tells them they have to present themselves as being primarily thinkers, in order to be listened to, and achieve Te results in the real world.

Not saying the world is right. Only saying that the way the world's values are nowadays, INTJs have to misrepresent themselves to get things done, and their Te makes them want to get things done.

I really don't think this is helping by reaffirming stereotypes. I don't know why people assume thinking is always objective. Or that intuition is always subjective.

Jung made the distinction between introverts as subjective and extroverts as objective - it's the basis of his ideas. It's then implied (and explained) that extroverts are extroverts because they demonstrate knowledge objectively (it comes from outside themself), whereas introverts are introverts because they relate knowledge subjectively (it comes from inside themself).

Ti then isn't fundamentally at all considered to be "objective". At least not from what Jung was trying to explain; and if MBTI is going to argue it uses Jungian Cognitive Functions, it is just a lie because it is clearly not at all compatible.
 

Reluctantly

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@scorpiomover

A quick google search gives me a good description between introvert (subjective) and extrovert (objective) as it pertains to Jung's ideas, even though it's talking about dreams: http://mythicdreams.org/jung-subjective-vs-objective-dream-interpretation/

I call every interpretation which equates the dream images with real objects an interpretation on the objective level. In contrast to this is the interpretation which refers every part of the dream and all the actors in it back to the dreamer himself. This I call interpretation on the subjective level. Interpretation on the objective level is analytic, because it breaks down the dream content into memory-complexes that refer to external situations. Interpretation on the subjective level is synthetic, because it detaches the underlying memory-complexes from their external causes, regards them as tendencies or components of the subject, and reunites them with that subject. . . . In this case, therefore, all the contents of the dream are treated as symbols for subjective contents.

What do you think about the part in red?
 

walfin

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I just don't see why we say that, e.g. INTP=Ti Ne Si Fe
This sounds like a falsifiable hypothesis which could be experimentally verified through MRI scans and whatnot if technology was advanced enough.
It could be the case that INTP merely means Ti dominant with Ne/Ni higher than Se/Si for instance. Inter alia.
 

walfin

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I heard once that the INFP male is the most vulnerable to carrying a torch for a girl for the longest time.

Fi supposedly is the problem.

INTPs apparently don't have this problem because of Ti "common sense".

Another of the advantages of being an INTP.

INTP's have a lot of common sense. Or rather, uncommon sense. Indeed, uncommonly good sense sometimes.

SJ folk wisdom and old wives tales are outmoded stuff meant for a past age.

It is the INTPs today who are creating folk wisdom for the SJs a century hence.
 

Reluctantly

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Maybe this MBTI story will help

It all started when our adventure-loving...adventurer, INTP, woke up in a swamp. It was the eighth time it had happened. Feeling barely relieved, INTP punched a gerbil, thinking it would make him feel better (but as usual, it did not). Heart filled with earnest fortitude, he realized that his beloved iPad was missing! Immediately he called his former lay, Leroy Jenkins. INTP had known Leroy Jenkins for (plus or minus) 550,000 years, the majority of which were enchanting ones. Leroy Jenkins was unique. She was charismatic though sometimes a little... insensitive. INTP called her anyway, for the situation was urgent.

Leroy Jenkins picked up to a very unctuous INTP. Leroy Jenkins calmly assured him that most venomous koalas belch before mating, yet disease-carrying chipmunks usually charismatically sneeze *after* mating. She had no idea what that meant; she was only concerned with distracting INTP. Why was Leroy Jenkins trying to distract INTP? Because she had snuck out from INTP's with the iPad only five days prior. It was a eccentric little iPad... how could she resist?

It didn't take long before INTP got back to the subject at hand: his iPad. Leroy Jenkins yawned. Relunctantly, Leroy Jenkins invited him over, assuring him they'd find the iPad. INTP grabbed his hammock and disembarked immediately. After hanging up the phone, Leroy Jenkins realized that she was in trouble. She had to find a place to hide the iPad and she had to do it recklessly. She figured that if INTP took the spaceship, she had take at least nine minutes before INTP would get there. But if he took the Carl Sagan? Then Leroy Jenkins would be scarcely screwed.

Before she could come up with any reasonable ideas, Leroy Jenkins was interrupted by nine stupid Owls that were lured by her iPad. Leroy Jenkins yawned; 'Not again', she thought. Feeling relieved, she deftly reached for her dull pencil and recklessly poked every last one of them. Apparently this was an adequate deterrent--the discouraged critters began to scurry back toward the bush, squealing with discontent. She exhaled with relief. That's when she heard the Carl Sagan rolling up. It was INTP.

----o0o----

As he pulled up, he felt a sense of urgency. He had had to make an unscheduled stop at The Salvation Army to pick up a 12-pack of gerbils, so he knew he was running late. With a calculated leap, INTP was out of the Carl Sagan and went sassily jaunting toward Leroy Jenkins's front door. Meanwhile inside, Leroy Jenkins was panicking. Not thinking, she tossed the iPad into a box of wolverines and then slid the box behind her George Foreman grill. Leroy Jenkins was displeased but at least the iPad was concealed. The doorbell rang.

'Come in,' Leroy Jenkins charismatically purred. With a heroic push, INTP opened the door. 'Sorry for being late, but I was being chased by some abrasive self-righteous ass in a magic flying carpet,' he lied. 'It's fine,' Leroy Jenkins assured him. INTP took a seat RIGHT next to where Leroy Jenkins had hidden the iPad. Leroy Jenkins sighed trying unsuccessfully to hide her nervousness. 'Uhh, can I get you anything?' she blurted. But INTP was distracted. Suddenly cheered up by the Hamtaro theme song, Leroy Jenkins noticed a dimwitted look on INTP's face. INTP slowly opened his mouth to speak.

'...What's that smell?'

Leroy Jenkins felt a stabbing pain in her prostate when INTP asked this. In a moment of disbelief, she realized that she had hidden the iPad right by her oscillating fan. 'Wh-what? I don't smell anything..!' A lie. A dimwitted look started to form on INTP's face. He turned to notice a box that seemed clearly out of place. 'Th-th-those are just my grandma's live hand grenades from when she used to have pet spotted wolf hamsters. She, uh...dropped 'em by here earlier'. INTP nodded with fake acknowledgement...then, before Leroy Jenkins could react, INTP recklessly lunged toward the box and opened it. The iPad was plainly in view.

INTP stared at Leroy Jenkins for what what must've been seven seconds. Suddenly cheered up by the Hamtaro theme song, Leroy Jenkins groped exotically in INTP's direction, clearly desperate. INTP grabbed the iPad and bolted for the door. It was locked. Leroy Jenkins let out a striking chuckle. 'If only you hadn't been so protective of that thing, none of this would have happened, INTP,' she rebuked. Leroy Jenkins always had been a little clueless, so INTP knew that reconciliation was not an option; he needed to escape before Leroy Jenkins did something crazy, like... start chucking potatos at her or something. Suddenly inspired by the wise teachings of Confuscious, he gripped his iPad tightly and made a dash toward the window, diving headlong through the glass panels.

Leroy Jenkins looked on, blankly. 'What the hell? That seemed excessive. The other door was open, you know.' Silence from INTP. 'And to think, I varnished that window frame two days ago...it never ends!' Suddenly she felt a tinge of concern for INTP. 'Oh. You ..okay?' Still silence. Leroy Jenkins walked over to the window and looked down. INTP was gone.

----o0o----

Just yonder, INTP was struggling to make his way through the disease-infested jungle behind Leroy Jenkins's place. INTP had severely hurt his prostate during the window incident, and was starting to lose strength. Another pack of feral Owls suddenly appeared, having caught wind of the iPad. One by one they latched on to INTP. Already weakened from his injury, INTP yielded to the furry onslaught and collapsed. The last thing he saw before losing consciousness was a buzzing horde of Owls running off with his iPad.

About two hours later, INTP awoke, his love handle throbbing. It was dark and INTP did not know where he was. Deep in the mysterious foxy forest, INTP was abundantly lost. In a blinding moment of misguided bravado, he remembered that his iPad was taken by the Owls. But at that point, he was just thankful for his life. That's when, to his horror, a enlarged Owl emerged from the secret vineyard. It was the alpha Owl. INTP opened his mouth to scream but was cut short when the Owl sunk its teeth into INTP's love handle. With a faint groan, the life escaped from INTP's lungs, but not before he realized that he was a failure.

Less than seven miles away, Leroy Jenkins was entombed by anguish over the loss of the iPad. 'MY PRECIOUS!!' she cried, as she reached for a sharpened live hand grenade. With a inept thrust, she buried it deeply into her prostate. As the room began to fade to black, she thought about INTP... wishing she had found the courage to tell him that she loved him. But she would die alone that day. All that remained was the iPad that had turned them against each other, ultimately causing their demise. And as the dew on melancholy sappling branches began to reflect the dawn's reddish glare, all that could be heard was the chilling cry of distant Owls, desecrating all things sacred to virtuous men, and perpetuating an evil that would reign for centuries to come. Our heroes would've lived unhappily ever after, but they were too busy being dead. So, no one lived forever after, the end. :'(

Good now?
 

walfin

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Where's the automatic story generator from?
 

Sorlaize

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Nietzsche stared at magic inner wisdom for what what must've been six minutes. Before the all-seeing eyes of a perpetually displeased diety, magic inner wisdom groped indiscriminately in Nietzsche's direction, clearly desperate. Nietzsche grabbed the truth and bolted for the door. It was locked. magic inner wisdom let out a enticing chuckle. 'If only you hadn't been so protective of that thing, none of this would have happened, Nietzsche,' he rebuked. magic inner wisdom always had been a little oafish, so Nietzsche knew that reconciliation was not an option; he needed to escape before magic inner wisdom did something crazy, like... start chucking live hand grenades at him or something. Heart filled with earnest fortitude, he gripped his truth tightly and made a dash toward the window, diving headlong through the glass panels.
hmm

Another pack of feral Obama zombies suddenly appeared, having caught wind of the truth. One by one they latched on to Nietzsche. Already weakened from his injury, Nietzsche yielded to the furry onslaught and collapsed. The last thing he saw before losing consciousness was a buzzing horde of Obama zombies running off with his truth.

I like it.
 

walfin

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Did you guys read The Great Automatic Grammatizator?

I'm amazed that it's probably technologically practicable now, although nobody has done quite what Roald Dahl envisioned.

When I have the time I'll write one, complete with the real-time passion control.
 

scorpiomover

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I really don't think this is helping by reaffirming stereotypes. I don't know why people assume thinking is always objective. Or that intuition is always subjective.
Because scientific consensus was that thinking was rational and reliable, and intuition was irrational, unreliable, and usually delusional. Religions and theism are intuitive ideas. So naturally, those who adopt the atheistic scientific viewpoint, and reject atheism on the scientific basis, have to reject intuition, or they'd have to reject their basis for atheism, and would have to stop thinking that religions are irrational and/or delusional. It's one or the other. Both just give the subconscious a huge conflict, and make Ni-doms go crazy. It's why Jung said that Ni-doms are either "the mystical dreamer and seer on the one hand, or the fantastical crank and artist on the other".

It's also why when INTJs mature, they tend to become very easy-going, stop telling people about their ideas, and just accept the way things are. They effectively drop the scientific viewpoint for the most part.

Jung made the distinction between introverts as subjective and extroverts as objective - it's the basis of his ideas. It's then implied (and explained) that extroverts are extroverts because they demonstrate knowledge objectively (it comes from outside themself), whereas introverts are introverts because they relate knowledge subjectively (it comes from inside themself).

Ti then isn't fundamentally at all considered to be "objective". At least not from what Jung was trying to explain;
Jung's fuller explanation of Introverted Thinking, which can be found in Psychological Types, Chapter X, Section C, Part (III), Paragraph I. "Thinking", is indeed that introverted thinking has an extremely subjective quality, in that the Ti-dom's thinking displays the following:
It begins in the subject, and returns to the subject, although it may [p. 481] undertake the widest flights into the territory of the real and the actual. Hence, in the statement of new facts, its chief value is indirect, because new views rather than the perception of new facts are its main concern. It formulates questions and creates theories; it opens up prospects and yields insight, but in the presence of facts it exhibits a reserved demeanour. As illustrative examples they have their value, but they must not prevail. Facts are collected as evidence or examples for a theory, but never for their own sake. Should this latter ever occur, it is done only as a compliment to the extraverted style. For this kind of thinking facts are of secondary importance; what, apparently, is of absolutely paramount importance is the development and presentation of the subjective idea, that primordial symbolical image standing more or less darkly before the inner vision. Its aim, therefore, is never concerned with an intellectual reconstruction of concrete actuality, but with the shaping of that dim image into a resplendent idea. Its desire is to reach reality; its goal is to see how external facts fit into, and fulfil, the framework of the idea; its actual creative power is proved by the fact that this thinking can also create that idea which, though not present in the external facts, is yet the most suitable, abstract expression of them. Its task is accomplished when the idea it has fashioned seems to emerge so inevitably from the external facts that they actually prove its validity.
In Jung's view, the objective goal of thinking, such as in the case of understanding lightning, is to harness the power of electricity. The subject is understanding lightning and electricity, and so the subjective goal is to understand lightning and electricity as clearly as possible. So in Jung's view, the subjective thinker is one whose goal is the subjective goal, to understand lightning and electricity as clearly as possible, until one understands it so well, that the objective evidence inevitably shows that one's theory of lightning and electricity must be true.

This is naturally quite confusing, because this is the approach that science is supposed to be about, understanding the world for its own sake. However, Jung also said in his interview in his later years, that things must be understood in their historical context. Historically, scientists earned their living by being teachers in schools for the sons of rich men, which were called universities, or by being teachers of science for rich nobles and their children, who employed them for that purpose. Rich people want the best, and pay well for it, and so they expect that if they intend to employ someone, then those people should be able to prove their credentials. So in order to gain employment for such purpose, and to keep being employed for such purpose, one had to prove that one knew more about science than anyone else, by developing new scientific ideas, theories and discoveries, that no-one else had come up with. Thus, the concept of "publish or perish", being the primary criteria for keeping one's tenure in a scientific post.

Thus, scientists are also often extroverted thinkers, because the objective of their thinking, is to publish enough new ideas, that they will keep their post, and maybe even advance to an even better post. Scientists who are extroverted thinkers, are liable to be more interested in publishing enough new articles, that it advances their career, their income, and their reputation and fame. Scientists who are introverted thinkers, are liable to be more interested in developing their ideas, and prefer to publish only to see what others might make of them, and if that is not currently their need, then they prefer to publish only just enough to keep them from getting the sack.

and if MBTI is going to argue it uses Jungian Cognitive Functions, it is just a lie because it is clearly not at all compatible.
Not according to the stereotype. Jungian typology didn't include a P/J dichotomy. But it did have an order of the first two functions, which one is dominant, an they have a 1-2-1 correlation, which makes them map each other perfectly: ExxP = Pe-Ji, ExxJ = Je-Pi, IxxP = Ji-Pe, IxxJ = Pi-Je. It's that simple.

A quick google search gives me a good description between introvert (subjective) and extrovert (objective) as it pertains to Jung's ideas, even though it's talking about dreams: http://mythicdreams.org/jung-subjective-vs-objective-dream-interpretation/
I call every interpretation which equates the dream images with real objects an interpretation on the objective level. In contrast to this is the interpretation which refers every part of the dream and all the actors in it back to the dreamer himself. This I call interpretation on the subjective level. Interpretation on the objective level is analytic, because it breaks down the dream content into memory-complexes that refer to external situations. Interpretation on the subjective level is synthetic, because it detaches the underlying memory-complexes from their external causes, regards them as tendencies or components of the subject, and reunites them with that subject. . . . In this case, therefore, all the contents of the dream are treated as symbols for subjective contents.
What do you think about the part in red?
He is very clear. Say your ENFP girlfriend says she had a dream, where G-d appeared to her, and told her that if you take your usual route home tomorrow, you'll have a car accident on the Freeway coming home from work. The objective viewpoint, as Jung explains it, is that the dream images are REAL. That is, either she saw the REAL G-d, and she was told the future, and you are going to have a car accident if you take the Freeway home, or at the least, that her subconcious deduced that the odds of you having an accident on the Freeway today, is extremely high, and the dream was her intuitive impression, her subconscious' way of communicating with her. Either way, you are better off treating it as real, and thus taking the longer route home.

The subjective viewpoint, as Jung explains it, is that the dream is not about you (the object) at all. It's all about HER (the subject). She's been very stressed lately, and this has translated to her getting over-anxious about you, but has nothing to do with REAL OBJECTS, and then it follows that you should dismiss her dream as some ridiculous delusion about an imaginary being.

It's the same as the stereotype about INTPs, and exactly what INTJs complain about INTPs, that they're happy to come up with new ideas, but aren't bothered about doing anything with them. Jung simply provides an explanation for it, that the behaviour of INTPS is RATIONAL.

FYI, I find this quote very interesting and perturbing. In this quote, Jung associates analysis with extroversion and synthesis with introversion. INTJs generally say they synthesise ideas. INTPs are normally considered analytical by nature. According to this quote, INTJs AND INTPs both synthesise ideas, and Extroverts are analysts.
 

Paladin-X

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Both INTPs and INFPs wear "coats" to distance themselves from the public. The difference is that the INFP wears spikes and armor. They may even slip into a persona to deal with the public. Others may find INFPs disagreeable or find them hard to like as a result. INTPs wear huge "coats" too but they are fluffy and soft, voluminous coats. Think "Michelin Man"(sp?)! INTPs are generally more socially liked than INFPs because of the softer exterior, the gentle let-downs and harmonious arguments. They do verbal aikido real well to keep people at arm's length. This was one primary way I knew I wasn't an INTP even though I test very close to "T" whenever I test. Well that and the INTP indulgence in "ritual". My sister is a true INTP and she doesn't like change or even taking a different route home.

That's a ridiculous method of discerning INxP. INFPs are not socially less popular than INTPs. It's true that an INFP has spiked armor, but it only comes out when in survival mode and/or when a personal value has been tripped. INFPs are very friendly and outgoing. INTPs might come off more as having spiked armor with the way they talk, but are otherwise big fluffy teddy bears.

They are essentially saying that an inferior Fe is friendlier than an Fi dom.

Ti and Fi are similar. However, Fi grounds itself in feelings of morality and agreeableness. Things feel right or wrong, morally. Ti also has a moral compass in the form of principle. Principle is rooted in thought. 'Feelings' of right and wrong are more in the way of logic or correctedness.

Also, if you were an Fi dom, you wouldn't be saying that it sucks. You'd be thriving in your moral beliefs. Fi puts trust in its own feelings and values of what is good and right.

This is my opinion anyway. Based on observation.
 

scorpiomover

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That's a ridiculous method of discerning INxP. INFPs are not socially less popular than INTPs. It's true that an INFP has spiked armor, but it only comes out when in survival mode and/or when a personal value has been tripped. INFPs are very friendly and outgoing. INTPs might come off more as having spiked armor with the way they talk, but are otherwise big fluffy teddy bears.

They are essentially saying that an inferior Fe is friendlier than an Fi dom.

Ti and Fi are similar. However, Fi grounds itself in feelings of morality and agreeableness. Things feel right or wrong, morally. Ti also has a moral compass in the form of principle. Principle is rooted in thought. 'Feelings' of right and wrong are more in the way of logic or correctedness.

Also, if you were an Fi dom, you wouldn't be saying that it sucks. You'd be thriving in your moral beliefs. Fi puts trust in its own feelings and values of what is good and right.

This is my opinion anyway. Based on observation.
It would be much easier to tell them apart, simply by turning to the person, and saying "you're stupid", or "your values are crap". At hearing "you're stupid", an INTP would probably laugh, and then tell you why you are wrong, in 1300 different ways. The INFP wouldn't care. At hearing, "your values are crap", an INFP would propably go ape, and start spouting fire. An INTP would just say "I have no values. Everything I do is based on logic."
 

Paladin-X

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It would be much easier to tell them apart, simply by turning to the person, and saying "you're stupid", or "your values are crap". At hearing "you're stupid", an INTP would probably laugh, and then tell you why you are wrong, in 1300 different ways. The INFP wouldn't care. At hearing, "your values are crap", an INFP would propably go ape, and start spouting fire. An INTP would just say "I have no values. Everything I do is based on logic."

Hahaha! Yep that's a good test!
 

walfin

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It would be much easier to tell them apart, simply by turning to the person, and saying "you're stupid", or "your values are crap". At hearing "you're stupid", an INTP would probably laugh, and then tell you why you are wrong, in 1300 different ways. The INFP wouldn't care. At hearing, "your values are crap", an INFP would propably go ape, and start spouting fire. An INTP would just say "I have no values. Everything I do is based on logic."

No, the INTP would tell you why you are stupid, in 1300 different ways.

Everything I do is based on logic sounds like a "value" to me.

@Nocturne since he is also one now.
 

Philovitist

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I used to reliably score as an INTP every single time.

Now I'm...extroverted.

I truly believe I changed into this through my time in high school.
 

walfin

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Now you're an ENTP? Wonder if their forum's back up...or has gone kaput again
 

scorpiomover

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No, the INTP would tell you why you are stupid, in 1300 different ways.
Ti is about subjective use of reason. It looks at everything else, to see if the subject matter is correct or not. In this case, the subject is the statement made, "you're stupid". So Ti will naturally analyse if that is true or false, in 1300 different ways. He MAY use the stupidity of the person that was already displayed, as a factor to use, to consider if the statement was correct or not. But he will always pull it back to the topic, and so the main thrust of the argument becomes "so you're wrong".

Everything I do is based on logic sounds like a "value" to me.
It can be. But consider a conversation of that nature:

INFP: Everything I do is based on logic.
Q: Why?
INFP: Because everything in the universe must be logical.
Q: Did you hear that mathematicians proved tht the universe is not always logical?
INFP: That's impossible. You're talking shite. You just made that up didn't you?
Q: No, really.
INFP: (rant, followed by unending argument that the other person is wrong.)

INTP: Everything I do is based on logic.
Q: Why?
INTP: Because everything in the universe must be logical.
Q: Did you hear that mathematicians proved tht the universe is not always logical?
INTP: That's impossible.
Q: No, really.
INTP: Can I see some proofs of that?
Q: Sure. Here's some links.
INTP: Hmmm...I need to think about this.
(Later)
Q: So? What did you think?
INTP: About those links?
Q: Yes.
INTP: Ummm...oh. Shite. No. That can't be. Someone help me. My whole world is falling apart. Nooooo........

See the difference?

You can't argue with a value. You can argue with reason.
 
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