Depression

[phantome]

How many people here have/have suffered from depression? When you're depressed how do you act?

I know for myself, I get much more withdrawn and quiet. Half the time I could care less about what's going on around me, and the other half, I get deeply affected on an emotional level =/

does anyone else feel this way?

 

[Ulysses]

I don't get upset very often, but when I do, I also tend to be a lot more quiet and spend more time alone trying to sort things out by myself. I think that this, along with the habit of bottling up emotions, seems to be a very common trait amongst introverts.

 

[Decaf]

When I withdraw I find that the only things I can motivate myself to do are of no consequence. Things like RPGs and flash games, playing them until I beat them and move on. It doesn't help me feel better, but I think its keeps me from feeling incompetent.

I spent most of middle school and early high school depressed but, oddly enough, one year of Bible School (I am an agnostic now) and joining the Air National Guard helped me immensely. I think its because it helped me become confident in what I believe is INTPs greatest potential strength. Adaptability. On the flip side, withdrawing happens because we no longer feel like we can adapt.

I could babble on for quite some time on this before I look back at your question and grudgingly erase most of it, so I'm just gonna cut my losses

 

[juturna]

All the time. In fact the more i think about it the more depressed i get. I was talking with my friend about happiness and i realized that I couldn't even remember the last time I was truly happy. And I dove deeper into a cycle of self-strengthening depression that has yet to be lifted.

 

[Red Mage]

I often wonder how many people who score INTP are really other types who are just depressed. Think about it, if you were ESFJ and depressed, you would probably see yourself as cold and distant, very unconfident and unsure of yourself and indecisive, and of course withdrawn from the world and inside your head more than aware of your surroundings. I'm not trying to imply any one person here is, but I do often think this way of myself.

 

[Beat Mango]

I often wonder how many people who score INTP are really other types who are just depressed. Think about it, if you were ESFJ and depressed, you would probably see yourself as cold and distant, very unconfident and unsure of yourself and indecisive, and of course withdrawn from the world and inside your head more than aware of your surroundings. I'm not trying to imply any one person here is, but I do often think this way of myself.

I could easily be a failed INTJ. Nothing is permanent in the world and I'd be surprised if MBTI is an exception to that.

Btw if I was in a depressed state there's no way I'd write something like the OP; it'd be more like, "my life is so shit someone help me, this is fucked waa waa waa". Seriously, don't label yourself as depressed if you're not, don't get it mixed up with low mood (EB gave a good description of true depression in the Depression Club thread), because something I've learnt about depression: it grows if you feed it.

 

[Ermine]

I often wonder how many people who score INTP are really other types who are just depressed. Think about it, if you were ESFJ and depressed, you would probably see yourself as cold and distant, very unconfident and unsure of yourself and indecisive, and of course withdrawn from the world and inside your head more than aware of your surroundings. I'm not trying to imply any one person here is, but I do often think this way of myself.

Interesting. It seems that depressed people wish to be their opposite, but end up exhibiting a negative side of that opposite personality. When I'm depressed, I gripe to myself about how socially inept I am, how spaced out I am, how empty I feel, how little I accomplish. I temporarily assume the objectives and viewpoint of a failed ESFJ. When I'm happy, I'm totally content and love being an INTP despite its flaws.

This kind of goes back to Jung's shadow concept - that under stress, people's types revert to a negative version of their opposite type. ex) INTP to failed ESFJ.

 

[Fred_is_dead_7x]

I was diagnosed with a "mild" long term depression about 2 years ago; I would consider myself in remission.

When I was depressed I spent my time in front of people not feeling anything, totally detached from everything around me, and not caring about anything that happened. I spent my time alone crying. But there was also the waking up each morning not feeling any more rested than the night before, the force it took me to pull myself through the drudgery that is life, the memory loss, the sense of impending doom, hopelessness, etc.

Btw if I was in a depressed state there's no way I'd write something like the OP; it'd be more like, "my life is so shit someone help me, this is fucked waa waa waa". Seriously, don't label yourself as depressed if you're not, don't get it mixed up with low mood (EB gave a good description of true depression in the Depression Club thread), because something I've learnt about depression: it grows if you feed it.

Banana - When I was depressed, the hopelessness I felt lead me to believe that there was no one that could help. The forgetfulness, I still can't remember most of my life, left me with nothing to compare it to. In short, I would not be asking for help, or complaining about my condition. This is why it took me so long to get treatment. I would, instead, want to hear about someone else's condition, because having someone to reach out to would have helped me. But I like your note about not confusing depression with low mood. It doesn't help the person claiming depression, and I feel it belittles the years I spent in a dark and lonely place. I'm not one to tell others what to do, but I want to ask those who feel "depressed" to look up what depression really is, not just post here.

-----------------------------------------------------

In a reflective note, I think I have used to word "feel" more in this post then I ever intend to in the future.

 

[Red Mage]

Interesting. It seems that depressed people wish to be their opposite, but end up exhibiting a negative side of that opposite personality. When I'm depressed, I gripe to myself about how socially inept I am, how spaced out I am, how empty I feel, how little I accomplish. I temporarily assume the objectives and viewpoint of a failed ESFJ. When I'm happy, I'm totally content and love being an INTP despite its flaws.

This kind of goes back to Jung's shadow concept - that under stress, people's types revert to a negative version of their opposite type. ex) INTP to failed ESFJ.

While I've read that you take on qualities of your opposite-letter type under extreme stress and anxiety (both of which I constantly have, by the way), what I was talking about was that I think a person of any type can end up INTP on these tests. Whether you're ESFJ, INTJ or what have you, you might answer I-, N-, T-, and P-like one tests if you're depressed -- for the reasons I stated above. Even if you're ESFJ, when you're depressed you're going to see yourself as introverted, possibly as intuitive since you're turning away from your senses and into your head, as thinking because you feel cold and disconnected from people, and perceptive because you don't trust your own judgement (since you're a totally worthless person) and may neglect to keep up on your appearance and living space. Sometimes I wonder if I actually am an ENTJ (or INTJ or ENTP) who just has severe anxiety and depression.

 

[sagewolf]

Interesting theory, Red Mage. Hmmm... let me elaborate on the N preference...

N: An S (with tertiary or inferior iNtuition) may begin to use their N function immaturely, projecting negative and dark 'what if' scenarios and future possibilities, when depressed, and begin to dwell on these possibilities instead of on the concrete information provided by their more reliable S function.

Thinking/Feeling is where I have to tentatively disagree-- when I'm depressed, I tend to behave more towards being an F, because I evaluate myself based on my opinion of what is worthwhile in life (and how little of it I live up to in general) rather than doing so rationally and forming a more objective and less dismal picture of myself. I act like an FJ-- with a mental age of about two. Other than that, though, you might be on to something.

@OP: I go through periods (between 1 and 3 weeks) when I'm dissatisfied with myself, too apathetic to do anything about it (or anything else for that matter) and just generally mired in melancholy and cynicism. Another feature of these pleasant times is that i see everything through jade-tinted glasses and hold the opinion that the entire world sucks and could do with a good exploding, although I don't care enough to actually articulate my thoughts coherently. Instead I just play RPGs all the time. Tales of Symphonia is good.

I get better, though. Every time. And I spend a lot more time content with myself than discontent, so I wouldn't say I'm actually depressed. Just moody. It's all internal, too: no-one around me can tell the difference.

 

[Omnisu]

@OP: I go through periods (between 1 and 3 weeks) when I'm dissatisfied with myself, too apathetic to do anything about it (or anything else for that matter) and just generally mired in melancholy and cynicism. Another feature of these pleasant times is that i see everything through jade-tinted glasses and hold the opinion that the entire world sucks and could do with a good exploding, although I don't care enough to actually articulate my thoughts coherently. Instead I just play RPGs all the time. Tales of Symphonia is good.

I could have sworn you were describing me right until you said Tales of Symphonia. Lately it's been Chrono Trigger. I'm going to give Secret of Mana a whirl, though.

It feels like a mild case of bipolar. For a little while I just sort of mope around. And then I swing back up, and all the billion projects or at least the few I care about at the moment get a little more done on them.

 

[Carnap]

I was diagnosed as mild bipolar. I don't know... True, I do impulsive things (like one time I threatened a professor by email saying 'I will destroy your ego every monday morning until the end of the year' and recently I just, on a whim, decided to try to convince another professor to leave his wife for me. what the HELL is wrong with me).

 

[Beat Mango]

I was diagnosed as mild bipolar. I don't know... True, I do impulsive things (like one time I threatened a professor by email saying 'I will destroy your ego every monday morning until the end of the year' and recently I just, on a whim, decided to try to convince another professor to leave his wife for me. what the HELL is wrong with me).

You actually did it?

 

[Carnap]

yesssssss.

And I was so ashamed that afterwards I did not eat for three days, only liquids. i lost lots of weight, i look terrible.

I had to have my fiancé send him an email saying I'm bipolar and in case of any problem to realize that I "am given to having thoughts and words that have no basis in reality".


I have no idea what the hell he thinks of me now.

dude, this was last week. i haven't been able to show my face in that school yet!

 

[Beat Mango]

Oh well I think that's awesome, haha, I wish I had the courage to do things like that. But I am prone to romanticising mania...

 

[Carnap]

Yeah, well I bet this guy thinks I'm an absolute freak. I want my fiancé to go apologize in my place, but he will not.

haha, people do romanticize bipolar a lot. But in people who have problems much more severe than I do, it can be dangerous !

At least you're making me laugh about it !

 

[Beat Mango]

See I love the beatniks and what was Dean Moriarty but completely and totally hypomanic.

Btw aren't you much younger than him? He was probably chuffed by it.. (ok I'll stop now, I don't want to encourage you further haha)

 

[Carnap]

See I love the beatniks and what was Dean Moriarty but completely and totally hypomanic.

Btw aren't you much younger than him? He was probably chuffed by it.. (ok I'll stop now, I don't want to encourage you further haha)

ah, yes, hypomania. I probably have that as opposed to full blown mania where people are climing buildings, spending their life savings, etc.

haha, he's a good twenty years older than me, yeah.

 

[phantome]

I'm not saying that I suffer from depression (if I did Im not sure what I meant) I'm trying to figure out exactly what I'm "suffering" from. I've been feeling this way for the last 3 moths- and sometimes it's extreme and other times not so much. I'm not exactly sure what it is

 

[Carnap]

I bet it's because you eat foods not appropriate for our species.

Not to go all dietary, but if you are eating many grains, pastas, cheese, meat, sugar, etc. you are going to feel off and you are going to mistake this for depression.

We share 99% of our DNA with chimpanzees, and you never see them eating any of that, now do you.

 

[preilemus]

I bet it's because you eat foods not appropriate for our species.

Not to go all dietary, but if you are eating many grains, pastas, cheese, meat, sugar, etc. you are going to feel off and you are going to mistake this for depression.

We share 99% of our DNA with chimpanzees, and you never see them eating any of that, now do you.

what??? half of that stuff isnt found in a chimps natural environment first of all, and secondly, who are you to say they wont eat it if offered?

 

[Carnap]

Maybe they will eat it, but I, and many others, think that animals tend to eat instinctively.

Chimps will instinctively seek out certain plants that deworm them, for example.

Do you think adding refined flour to a chimps diet will be beneficial? Millions of years of evolution mean nothing?

I'm not saying they are vegetarian. But meat is only one percent of their diet.


Listen, do what you want. All I know is that when I changed my diet I felt awesome. I used to be depressed and grumpy all the time and now that only happens if someone pisses me off.

the rest of the time I'm on top of the world.

 

[Red Mage]

Maybe they will eat it, but I, and many others, think that animals tend to eat instinctively.

Chimps will instinctively seek out certain plants that deworm them, for example.

Do you think adding refined flour to a chimps diet will be beneficial? Millions of years of evolution mean nothing?

I'm not saying they are vegetarian. But meat is only one percent of their diet.


Listen, do what you want. All I know is that when I changed my diet I felt awesome. I used to be depressed and grumpy all the time and now that only happens if someone pisses me off.

the rest of the time I'm on top of the world.

Some of your argument sounds rather specious, but I'm no expert. However, I've heard this exact same thing from others. People who eat crap like I do (out of necessity at the moment) and feel like crap and then 'fix' their diet and feel much better about themselves. Even drinking only plain water makes people feel much happier in general.

Edit: That sounded negative on second reading. I meant to back you up, sorta. Not from experience, but from second-hand knowledge.

 

[Carnap]

well, water purifies. water fasting is awesome. but it is hard. juice fasting is even better, for wimps like me!

milk is the food nature created for cows. it has shitloads of hormones in it for the baby cow's growth.

i'm a vegan. when I ate cheese one day, the next day I felt like crap. i had violent images in my subconcious. I had mucus coming out of my nose.
it just doesn't make sense to drink the milk of another species...

but i think we should stop, I don't wanna get dogmatic.

 

[Latro]

well, water purifies. water fasting is awesome. but it is hard. juice fasting is even better, for wimps like me!

Biggest load of crap, ever. Seriously. You know what purifies? Your liver and kidneys. You know what they needs to do their job? Vitamins and minerals. You know how many vitamins and minerals water gives? Zero.

Seriously, being a vegetarian is not harmful. It can certainly fill our nutrient needs (with a couple exceptions, most notably vitamin B12, which generally have to be made industrially or harvested from animal sources) and it may bring health benefits. "Natural remedies" like water purification, though? Bullshit. And bullshit that will cause heavy damage.

(Pardon my language, this is just really, really bad, and I think it deserves the emphasis.)

 

[Venture]

I would say I am in a state of depression right now. I still enjoy doing the things I like but I can tell it is not the same.

I have felt like this before but worse maybe because it was pre-mature and lasted a day or two.

Nothing really bad has happened recently in my life and it seems that nothing is visibly troubling me, it dosn't feel totally extreme. Perhaps it is just a temporaray one? But when it usally temporary it feels worse. It's pretty hard to explain in writing or in words though. Maybe it has to do with maturing for an INTP. I have contemplated sucide before but that was very pre-mature.
I would have no problem holding an explosive to my chest, putting a barrel to my head and squeezing the trigger, or jumping off of a building right now. I am not speaking metaphorically, sarcastic, or exadorating. I just don't have the resources for a quick and immediate death. I have been living my life with the motto of 'F. it all' but that for some reason and my INTPness is somehow letting me down.

This may sound like self pitty but not like the impresion this may give you.
That is also how much I don't care about anything anymore.

This is also restraining me from posting actuall intulectual posts simply because I don't feel like even though I want to. This has also been happening for a few days.

 

[Ulysses]

If you mix mint and orange together, you'll get a watermelon taste.

 

[Venture]

If you mix mint and orange together, you'll get a watermelon taste.

Thank you, the answers of everythingg, you speak....


Did you reffer mint as to a liquid?

 

[Hawkeye]

that is the puzzle

 

[FireHawk]

I have clinical depression. Basically, I get a sense of hopelessness. It also makes me lash out at people... So it's almost a sub-maniacal depression.

 

[Venture]

I don't really feel like doing anything, video games are about the only thing that I can handle.

I got 12:30 in the hospital tonight in Left 4 Dead.

Prpbably my biggest achievment in a couple weeks.

YAAAAAAAAH

 

[Carnap]

Biggest load of crap, ever. Seriously. You know what purifies? Your liver and kidneys. You know what they needs to do their job? Vitamins and minerals. You know how many vitamins and minerals water gives? Zero.

Seriously, being a vegetarian is not harmful. It can certainly fill our nutrient needs (with a couple exceptions, most notably vitamin B12, which generally have to be made industrially or harvested from animal sources) and it may bring health benefits. "Natural remedies" like water purification, though? Bullshit. And bullshit that will cause heavy damage.

(Pardon my language, this is just really, really bad, and I think it deserves the emphasis.)

have you ever even fasted? Or done research on it? It gives your body a break and then your body (yes, the liver and kidneys and all that other stuff) can use the energy to purify your body. I should not have said it was the water doing the work, it is the body doing the work.

I fasted for three days and when I was done I was much more flexible in sports and my skin was clearer, my head clearer.

In nature herbivorous animals get b12 by accidentally eating insects and ingesting the bacteria that create b12 (b12 is a biproduct of bacteria). We cannot get that, so unfortunately supplementation is the only option.

Like I said, I really don't feel like debating this on this particular forum.

 

[Latro]

have you ever even fasted? Or done research on it? It gives your body a break and then your body (yes, the liver and kidneys and all that other stuff) can use the energy to purify your body. I should not have said it was the water doing the work, it is the body doing the work.

I fasted for three days and when I was done I was much more flexible in sports and my skin was clearer, my head clearer.

In nature herbivorous animals get b12 by accidentally eating insects and ingesting the bacteria that create b12 (b12 is a biproduct of bacteria). We cannot get that, so unfortunately supplementation is the only option.

Like I said, I really don't feel like debating this on this particular forum.

Fasting absolutely does not give your body a break. It freaks it the hell out, and sends it into a panic until you get a chance to eat again.

A real way to do a purification procedure, if you really thought that that would work (which again it wouldn't, as body purification doesn't work that way) would be to ingest pure glucose (which would have to be rather nicely calibrated with your pancreas in order to not stress it), take multivitamins to obtain all your nutrients, and then find some way to take in protein in a pure form (not exactly sure how you would do this without spending ridiculous amounts of money). That would remove all chemicals, synthetic and natural, that you do not fundamentally need to function, and also make it so your digestive system basically wouldn't need to do anything to convert your calories into a form that could be used. And it would do rather little good, because our liver and kidneys are freaking amazing at what they do, the reason being that they've had to be to keep us and our ancestors alive for so many millennia.

 

[Toad]

We have so many depression threads in this forum...it's so sad. I hate that INTP's get depressed so much.

I think this is the reason why..."The LII is among the most stoic of types but appreciates emotional effusiveness in others. Something as simple as a big smile and a hug is enough to brighten an LII's day. Without constant positive emotional input, they begin to doubt that they are appreciated and fall into depression."

Even though our natural tendency is to seclude ourselves, we still need good friends and family to tell us we are not freaks and to give us a hug and tell us we are good doggies

 

[Cryss Winters]

Even though our natural tendency is to seclude ourselves, we still need good friends and family to tell us we are not freaks and to give us a hug and tell us we are good doggies

Who's a good doggie??! You're a good doggie!!! Yes you are, Yes you are!!!

and I refuse to give you a hug.

 

[Toad]

Who's a good doggie??! You're a good doggie!!! Yes you are, Yes you are!!!

and I refuse to give you a hug.

I am oh so huggable.

 

[snowqueen]

In case you didn't see it, I have written a lengthy post about depression and INTP from a a slightly more professional/academic POV - there are some tips about things you can do to help yourself.

Carnap - I'm afraid the research pretty much confirms that fasting and detox programmes are useless at best and dangerous at worst. The reason you feel 'better' is simply a temporary effect but has no actual health benefits. Most people just eat far too much, too much refined food, too much processed food and not enough fresh fruit and vegetables. The worst thing is that most vegetables are grown in poor soil so they do not have the nutrients. I only buy organic root vegetables nowadays.

Drinking water is important to keep the brain hydrated apart from anything else so worth doing.

 

[Carnap]

Well, I still am going to fast for other purposes. It is so worth it. I won't say spiritually, but mentally it is a nice break. I love doing a fast now and then just to remove myself from everything. You don't feel like listening to music, coming on forums, it is really nice.

Plus if you do juice fasting your skin glows from all the nutrition you absorb, you are on a cloud from all the minerals and you body is really alkaline (which I admit sometimes makes my libido too high).

I love it!

 

[Beat Mango]

Plus if you do juice fasting your skin glows from all the nutrition you absorb, you are on a cloud from all the minerals and you body is really alkaline (which I admit sometimes makes my libido too high).

I love it!

Hmmm I could do with some libido. How do I go about this juice fasting? Is it bad for people with anxiety, ie, does it make you feel "on edge"?

 

[Beat Mango]

In case you didn't see it, I have written a lengthy post about depression and INTP from a a slightly more professional/academic POV - there are some tips about things you can do to help yourself.

Nice post - I'm tempted to hire you as my personal therapist. No, really. Any tips for anxiety and the INTP?

 

[Carnap]

Hmmm I could do with some libido. How do I go about this juice fasting? Is it bad for people with anxiety, ie, does it make you feel "on edge"?

It depends how clean your system is. If you eat a lot of caffeine, sugar, cheese, you body will go into shock (think hangover). But if you eat clean and lots of raw fruits and veggies for a few days before hand, ex:

Breakfast
tons of apples until you are full, or a smoothie with bananas/greens, etc.

Lunch
huge salad with avocados, mangos, cucumbers, et

dinner
i don't have an example


you need a juicer.

well, i suck, i would suggest googling it, juice fasting. you can ignore anything mystical or what may seem pseudoscientific, but I swear, even if you don't do a full fast, all those nutrients will make you alkaline and you will feel good.

ex. juice carrots with all their leaves, that did me in I think. felt soooo good.

 

[Ulysses]

If you inject yourself with liquid detergent, your body will be more alkaline than ever. Trust me, I've tried it before and I felt sooooooo good afterwards.

 

[Carnap]

This is exactly why I didn't want to discuss this on this forum. I knew there would be arguments and bashing for the sake of arguing (about something, hey, you know nothing about).

Is there anyone here who has a degree in biology, nutrition? Medicine? I'm sure none of you are dumb enough to accept at face value what the medical industry says.

Do you even know or care that the body's pH has to be slightly alkaline and that most people's diets make their body acidic?


No, probably not. You'd just rather have our governments spend millions and millions of dollars on research for a 'cure' for cancer, something that can be prevented/reversed with a species appropriate diet.


This is the LAST time I am discussing anything to do with food or health on this forum. Like I said before, live how you want. I gave my opinion on my past depression and how foods affect my mental health, and I will not bring it up again.

 

[Ulysses]

This is exactly why I didn't want to discuss this on this forum.

No one asked you to. We're quite satisfied with our own diets, thank you very much.

 

[Carnap]

She was moping on about depression, trying to find some ridiculous existential reasons for her depression and not realizing that it was just an altered/unbalanced state in her brain that she was trying to rationalize.

I'm allowed to give her any advice about depression, but food is taboo?

Add: hahaha!! i get it now. ISTJ.

I'm going to walk away now, smug.

edit: not to be rude, but my sister is an ISTJ and she is the same way. She could have a tumor growing on her eye and I could give her advice, and if it is not conventional she won't have it.

 

[Ulysses]

I have no problem following someone's advice as long as they can back it up with solid scientific evidence. Right now, it seems as if the evidence is against fasting.

Also, try not to take this personally. We're attacking your ideas, not you.

 

[Latro]

Well, I still am going to fast for other purposes. It is so worth it. I won't say spiritually, but mentally it is a nice break. I love doing a fast now and then just to remove myself from everything. You don't feel like listening to music, coming on forums, it is really nice.

Plus if you do juice fasting your skin glows from all the nutrition you absorb, you are on a cloud from all the minerals and you body is really alkaline (which I admit sometimes makes my libido too high).

I love it!

1. The glowing effect is most probably the fact that your body is flushed, which means it's in a panic, as I was saying before. You know the "warming effect" of alcohol, for comparison? Yeah, your body doesn't actually warm up. Your blood vessels just dilate and more heat is escaping, thus LOWERING your core temperature. What you're describing is very similar. The "on a cloud" effect probably implies that you are in a minor daze from low blood sugar as well.
2. Alkalosis, if this is what you're describing (which, since you'd be burning fat and taking in low pH liquid exclusively, isn't what would happen, but at any rate) can kill you very, VERY easily. As can acidosis (which theoretically is what should actually happen). If you think that's happening for even a few minutes you should stop, promptly.

Seriously, don't try to turn this on the people who listen to the people who have the MDs. If you have an MD and care to contradict us, feel free; I'll listen. Then I'll listen to the hundreds of MDs who disagree with you and draw my own conclusions. If you're just saying that we're slaves to the machine, then all you are is a slave to the anti-machine, which in practice is even worse because it's more likely to get you killed.

 

[Carnap]

No, the glowing effect happens when I drink cucumber juice or lots of juice in general (made in my home) regardless of whether I fast or not[. Cucumber has silica in it. It's really good for skin.

I don't even fast that much. Hardly at all, in fact. But I do drink lots of juice, and when I drink it a couple of times a day, I look pretty damned good. And I'm flexible in sports. And I can do twice as much sports. And my body gets very toned. I have loads of energy, so much so that if I don't do sports I don't sleep at night.

I hardly ever fast, I'm too impatient. But I do follow an almost all raw, vegan diet with b12 supplementation on occasion. No gluten, cooked when I'm busy.


And my fiancé saw such a difference in me since I stared that he turned vegan, too. And he is an INTJ-I can never convince him of anything.

I think he did it for vanity because he saw all the lean/feminine muscle I was developing and how friendly I had become, instead of a depressed grump all the time (from too much refined sugar and dairy).

But I still think this topic is inappropriate here, why I am getting involved again is beyond me.

 

[preilemus]

oh my god carnap. just walk away.

"im gonna keep on stabbing you, but i really dont want to have a fight"

 

[Carnap]

they are bating me and you know it.

and i am getting so desperate to win that i'm bringing physical appearanes into it. damn. why we have to resort to vanity to convince people of things...