COMMAND

[XIII]

Why this meekness? From you, it repulses me.

You are the few gifted with the divine light of reason, capable of recreating culture and perception in the image of your rare genius. Yet, you hide away in this dungeon complaining of your alienation?

You would prefer to be mediocre and well understood? You would prefer to yield the burden of your insight?

Look at the herd around you.

LOOK at them. They are asleep. They are as common animals. They are barely conscious, unable to see past the conceptual frameworks which they inherited, but which were determined and manipulated by minds such as yours.

Minds such as yours, but with courage.

Your self-pity, your willingness to play the victim, your tragic loneliness...

Cowardice.


You have the gift of Gods, yet, when among them, you act as if were a curse. Meek, retiring. This is not your rightful role. You are the justification of humanity. Its pettiness and ugliness is forgiven by the divinity within the few conscious souls such as yourself. Yet you hide.

You submit to the automatic systems of the unconscious herd. You refuse to admit, in action, that they are not alive to the same world as you. They are a game. You have it within you to beat their game and enlist them in the manifestation of your vision, yet you willingly surrender? Your meekness is the death of your vision. Without the strength and courage to command, your reason and imagination are impotent.

Impotent. Made to create, yet failing to do so.


COMMAND.

You have the right to this world. Deny the meekness that they taught you. They knew not what they did-- they are not conscious. They are a system to be overcome and then turned to your advantage. They are the raw materials from which your new world may be created.


Am I being insensitive?
Yes. Insensitive to the cowardly little haven you have made for yourself. Insensitive to your wasted potential. Insensitive to your definition by that which you are not. Insensitive to your transitory pain.

But in love with that which is great within you. In love with your genius. In love with the worlds you could create, if only you cut meekness from your heart and took your rightful place as a commander of this sleeping race.

XIII

 

[preilemus]

well, glad to see you're posting again. someone made a similar thread like this awhile back (although much less constructed in thought), and I think you may get the same responses.

essentially, while many of us do display the meekness you speak of while on this forum, it doesnt necessarily reflect our entire person. A place like this becomes an outlet for immature, playful, or otherwise whiny behavior which often doesnt get an outlet in the real world. taking the collective personality of this forum at face value can therefore be misleading.

...of course I havent dismissed the notion that I could have drawn the wrong conclusion from your post of what you mean, so keep that in mind

 

[XIII]

well, glad to see you're posting again. someone made a similar thread like this awhile back (although much less constructed in thought), and I think you may get the same responses.

essentially, while many of us do display the meekness you speak of while on this forum, it doesnt necessarily reflect our entire person. A place like this becomes an outlet for immature, playful, or otherwise whiny behavior which often doesnt get an outlet in the real world. taking the collective personality of this forum at face value can therefore be misleading.

...of course I havent dismissed the notion that I could have drawn the wrong conclusion from your post of what you mean, so keep that in mind

Perhaps not reflective of their entire being, but representative enough of their underlying attitudes and conceptions of their own role.

edit: yes, I read that thread. More on that will be divulged at the time of the great revelation of the true purpose and nature of the ostensibly contradictory and disparate phenomena that constitute the transpersonal collective identity through which we (I) deliver posts to this forum.

editedit (not addressed to Glovehead): am I J? Will you choose that easy answer? Will you whore your intellect out to a lifeless label? ''We've put him a different box than ours, so we can ignore what he says''; ''oh, you can't be INTP if you're talking like that''. People who say such things whore their intellects to their own laziness and self-deceit. They ignore direct challenges to their premises by... labeling the origin of those premises as ''different''. The epitome of herd think. I do not write to such people. Despite using the address ''you'', I truly address only a small minority of readers.

To those weak enough to use such an excuse, I'll give it to you out of pity: I'm an ESFJ.

 

[Waterstiller]

Command.. to what end?


Most of us are clearly not the followers and I guess I naturally shed the majority of ways I'm being herded as I become aware of them. But I generally don't want to become the shepherd once I stop being the sheep.

I think the only person I want to command is myself. Other people are interesting enough to watch.


This personality I'd describe as more arrogant than insensitive.

 

[Weliddryn]

Using emotional manipulation. Interesting, XIII.

"You have the power"

Boosting the ego, it makes it easier to manipulate people.

"Look at how stupid and pitiful those around you are"

Wouldn't it be so easy to manipulate them to your will? But who is pulling your strings? Who is truly the master of puppets?

"You are too cowardly to use it (the insight, etc)"

Goading, basically.

"You have a right to this world"

Do as I say and you will claim your rights.

 

[echoplex]

Minds such as yours, but with courage.

Indeed. Learning how to stand up for our thoughts is a challenge we often shy away from. It may require many years for most of us to have the confidence in our own thoughts to feel worthy of commanding anything.

And yes, what you describe is typically associated with xNTJ types, but you are right that it is no good excuse for ignoring valid criticism.

 

[preilemus]

Perhaps not reflective of their entire being, but representative enough of their underlying attitudes and conceptions of their own role.

agreed

time of the great revelation of the true purpose and nature of the ostensibly contradictory and disparate phenomena that constitute the transpersonal collective identity through which we (I) deliver posts to this forum.

is this happening tonight, or are all these bones youre throwing merely to whet appetites?

 

[XIII]

Command.. to what end?


Most of us are clearly not the followers and I guess I naturally shed the majority of ways I'm being herded as I become aware of them. But I generally don't want to become the shepherd once I stop being the sheep.

I think the only person I want to command is myself. Other people are interesting enough to watch.

This is a naive viewpoint. You pay taxes, depend upon a system ruled by the uninspired for your existence, trade the ideas of creators who have had the courage to imprint their will upon collective awareness, and eat and sleep only as far as those who do command (albeit to *lesser* ends than you could) allow it.

Short of becoming a hermit, autonomy is a myth which locks you into relatively generous submission.

I am a powerful communicator (it's the inevitable result of circumstances such as mine), but any ''manipulation'' is unintentional. I would prefer for other posters to honestly address the underlying aesthetic of the post, rather than the superficial details out of context. Bear in mind, also, that the use of persuasive or emotive language may be a necessary step in increasing your influence within the aforementioned system.

Using emotional manipulation. Interesting, XIII.

"You have the power"

Boosting the ego, it makes it easier to manipulate people.

"Look at how stupid and pitiful those around you are"

Wouldn't it be so easy to manipulate them to your will? But who is pulling your strings? Who is truly the master of puppets?

"You are too cowardly to use it (the insight, etc)"

Goading, basically.

"You have a right to this world"

Do as I say and you will claim your rights.

Confidence does not arise from the validity of your thoughts. It is an independent phenomenon, wielded by those worthy and unworthy. Nevertheless, it is an invaluable tool in the manifestation of the vision which the best among this forum undoubtedly possess. ''Confidence'' is not the essential subject of this topic, but is an after-effect of the application and integration of the aesthetic of the original post.

Indeed. Learning how to stand up for our thoughts is a challenge we often shy away from. It may require many years for most of us to have the confidence in our own thoughts to feel worthy of commanding anything.

And yes, what you describe is typically associated with xNTJ types, but you are right that it is no good excuse for ignoring valid criticism.

 

[Tyria]

I will respond to the original statements that have been made; I am unsure whether or not I am included in the author's intended audience.

Why this meekness? From you, it repulses me.

You are the few gifted with the divine light of reason, capable of recreating culture and perception in the image of your rare genius. Yet, you hide away in this dungeon complaining of your alienation?

Many can reason, though perhaps not everyone can in the grandness of the image you are trying to project from the 'me' of your statements. I do not hide; the door is unlocked and open.

You would prefer to be mediocre and well understood? You would prefer to yield the burden of your insight?

'Mediocre' and 'well understood' are subjective; no objective scale (that I am aware of) exists for measurement of either concept. "Well' is a clarification, but still invites for subjectivity: how 'well' is well enough? What would be the limits (if any) to a scale of wellness?

Look at the herd around you.

LOOK at them. They are asleep. They are as common animals. They are barely conscious, unable to see past the conceptual frameworks which they inherited, but which were determined and manipulated by minds such as yours.

Minds such as yours, but with courage.

Sleepers can be awoken. We are all animals with the same basic desires and needs. We are not so 'different' as you make us out to be; we all come from the same springs of life. If they are barely conscious, revive them. If they are unable to see, ask them to open their eyes. Courage comes in many forms and faces; it takes courage to admit we are not as great as our superficial ego would have us out to be.

Your self-pity, your willingness to play the victim, your tragic loneliness...

Cowardice.

I disagree. Cowardice is the lack of courage. And "Courage is not the absence of fear. It is acting in spite of it" (Mark Twain). If the person described was not courageous, then it would fit the definition of cowardice proposed (although there may be different definitions of cowardice). However, this definition will suffice.

You have the gift of Gods, yet, when among them, you act as if were a curse. Meek, retiring. This is not your rightful role. You are the justification of humanity. Its pettiness and ugliness is forgiven by the divinity within the few conscious souls such as yourself. Yet you hide.

There would have to be gods first to have their gifts. Who do you propose the gods are? As for our role, we have the capacity to assign our own roles. To say it is not your rightful role is to pass judgment; a difficult thing to be objective at its best. I was unaware that humanity needed justification; what justification are you referring to?

You submit to the automatic systems of the unconscious herd. You refuse to admit, in action, that they are not alive to the same world as you. They are a game. You have it within you to beat their game and enlist them in the manifestation of your vision, yet you willingly surrender? Your meekness is the death of your vision. Without the strength and courage to command, your reason and imagination are impotent.

And who is alive to the worlds that we create in our minds but ourselves? We cannot force another to follow the path that we walk; we can try to enlist them, but to surrender connotates defeat. I don't agree that 'beating' the game of people and enlisting them in the manifestation of one's vision belongs under the label of 'victory'. I would say that arrogance is the death of one's growth though... why learn anything if you already know better? As for our reason and imagination... you are judging again. How can you objectively measure whether abstract concepts are 'impotent' or not? What is your basis?

COMMAND.

You have the right to this world. Deny the meekness that they taught you. They knew not what they did-- they are not conscious. They are a system to be overcome and then turned to your advantage. They are the raw materials from which your new world may be created.

With right comes responsibility (if the right remains at all!) Not everything in life is about manipulation of systems; sometimes solitude and thought can create a 'new world' without the need for people. The process can be much faster though if thoughtful minds can exchange such information

Am I being insensitive?
Yes. Insensitive to the cowardly little haven you have made for yourself. Insensitive to your wasted potential. Insensitive to your definition by that which you are not. Insensitive to your transitory pain.

Do not be insensitive to alternatives; you will miss the larger picture.

But in love with that which is great within you. In love with your genius. In love with the worlds you could create, if only you cut meekness from your heart and took your rightful place as a commander of this sleeping race.

XIII

Open your eyes. It is already upon you; why have you been dreaming for so long~

 

[XIII]

Your post was somewhat disjointed, without a consistent or thematic criticism. Forgive the disjointedness that this necessitates of my response:

Many can reason, though perhaps not everyone can in the grandness of the image you are trying to project from the 'me' of your statements. I do not hide; the door is unlocked and open.

''The divine light of reason, capable of recreating culture and perception in the image of your rare genius'' does not equate to the common, uninspired reason available to many. Observing the emphasis and ''divinity'' metaphor used would have prevented this misapprehension.

'Mediocre' and 'well understood' are subjective; no objective scale (that I am aware of) exists for measurement of either concept. "Well' is a clarification, but still invites for subjectivity: how 'well' is well enough? What would be the limits (if any) to a scale of wellness?

Breaking down any sentence into its constituent parts and then discussing the relativity of those parts will corrupt its meaning. Language, by its nature, is rough and metaphorical. Meaning may only, then, be determined by the overall conformation of words and paragraphs to form a complete message.

Additionally, there are many linguistic concepts in your post of which no ''objective scale'' exists. Unfortunately, you seem to identify the validity of a perspective with its measurability. I do not. As a painting's meaning cannot be measured by the study of individual strokes, the meaning of a considered and metaphorical piece of writing cannot be gleaned from the deconstruction of individual sentences out of context.

Sleepers can be awoken. We are all animals with the same basic desires and needs. We are not so 'different' as you make us out to be; we all come from the same springs of life. If they are barely conscious, revive them. If they are unable to see, ask them to open their eyes.

Disagreed. This does not work on any large scale. Observe the misapplication of the teachings of the great sages throughout history, the failure of followers to live up to their leaders and of proponents to live up to the geniuses who originated the theories they espoused. The only people who take your position are those who are not different enough to realise just how comletely different some humans are from the majority.
Example? William Blake. There are others, but his life is an adequate refutation of your position.

Taking your advice (I've done it before) is equivalent to asking a blind man to open his eyes.

Courage comes in many forms and faces; it takes courage to admit we are not as great as our superficial ego would have us out to be.

It takes very little courage for an unremarkable person to admit their mediocrity.

I disagree. Cowardice is the lack of courage. And "Courage is not the absence of fear. It is acting in spite of it" (Mark Twain). If the person described was not courageous, then it would fit the definition of cowardice proposed (although there may be different definitions of cowardice). However, this definition will suffice.

This is just random masturbatory text, unrelated to the essential aesthetic of my OP. It will duly be ignored.

There would have to be gods first to have their gifts. Who do you propose the gods are? As for our role, we have the capacity to assign our own roles. To say it is not your rightful role is to pass judgment; a difficult thing to be objective at its best. I was unaware that humanity needed justification; what justification are you referring to?

Metaphor.

And who is alive to the worlds that we create in our minds but ourselves? We cannot force another to follow the path that we walk; we can try to enlist them, but to surrender connotates defeat. I don't agree that 'beating' the game of people and enlisting them in the manifestation of one's vision belongs under the label of 'victory'. I would say that arrogance is the death of one's growth though... why learn anything if you already know better? As for our reason and imagination... you are judging again. How can you objectively measure whether abstract concepts are 'impotent' or not? What is your basis?

My basis? What is the basis for any of your comment? All here is subjective, and aesthetic taste determines my evaluation. I regard my evaluation-- esentially and unashamedly arational-- as independent and without need of proof. Your constant references to ''proof'' outside of the context of empirical observation and induction display a slavish adherence to common cultural values:
''proof'' is only required, to people who ask for it in such situations, when their own inherited aesthetic assumptions are challenged. They do not seem to require proof of themselves for their own inherited assumptions. Thus, they (you) imply that their own opinions are somehow more objective. I'm not playing that game. All is subjective here, and my word is justified by the life I have lived and the person who I am. I am a rightful master, and do not barter and adjust my taste according to a slave's cries that it is ''not reasonable''.

With regards to ''impotent''-- refer to my earlier explanations of linguistic relativity and metaphor.

With right comes responsibility (if the right remains at all!) Not everything in life is about manipulation of systems; sometimes solitude and thought can create a 'new world' without the need for people. The process can be much faster though if thoughtful minds can exchange such information

Agreed with regards to solitude, but most here do not display the willpower necessary for that. They come to the watering hole and gossip and exchanged their little inherited opinions about little inherited experiences. If you are implying that a ''new world'' could be created on a forum such as this-- my refutation is the forum itself.

With regards to manipulation of systems-- your point is sloppy and irrelevant, but I agree somewhat. However, I cannot think of one example of an action which does not involve some degree of manipulation of some system (manipulation in the general sense, not the bastardised social sense).

Do not be insensitive to alternatives; you will miss the larger picture.

XIII: ''I find forks useful for eating food''
You: ''Do not stick forks in your eye; it will hurt you''
XIII: ''What.The.Fuck''

 

[Waterstiller]

This is a naive viewpoint. You pay taxes, depend upon a system ruled by the uninspired for your existence, trade the ideas of creators who have had the courage to imprint their will upon collective awareness, and eat and sleep only as far as those who do command (albeit to *lesser* ends than you could) allow it.

Short of becoming a hermit, autonomy is a myth which locks you into relatively generous submission.

I haven't put any thought into this because a migraine is coming on. But before I escape it via tylenol PM induced unconsciousness..

Could "command" be seen as a continuum? Normally I discuss this on a sexual continuum but perhaps it has broader application.


<sub----------0----------dom>


Those tending towards more isolated existences find themselves inching closer towards the center. Someone who's happy working for a corporation as a grunt but enjoying salary pay and benefits would probably be towards the left, and someone who desires to be upper level management would be towards the right.

Perhaps I'm leaning slightly towards the submissive side on the macro level - letting the poorly run system dominate me unless it infringes on too many liberties. I like it that way, however. I have the resources and time I need to explore how I want to live for the rest of my life. On the micro level I get to command how I want to paint my canvases - right now, no fuss. I deal with the foundations as required.

But this thought is very incomplete because even those whose ambitions are to command are still submissive to the people and are restricted to certain parameters to avoid mutiny. Domination and submission are relative. Even in a sexual relationship the submissive chooses to submit and thus they have (from an angle) the broader command. And if you use force, just know that tyrants don't last long.

So.. perhaps 'domination' and 'submission' are the same thing and what is really at the heart of this is dependence on outside world or dependence on others. So at the left of either of these continuum would be inner reliance and on the right would be reliance outside one's self.



It's entirely possible (probable?) that I'm naive here. I haven't really given it much thought (and don't care to yet). I'm still not seeing the point in wanting to command the world/government/company/other-sentient-beings. Why do that when we can be the architects of our art, programs, gardens, selves? Other people are difficult variables to be wrapped up in and the ambition to command seems to dehumanize to a degree your subordinates. I do plan on being a hermit to a large degree and living off the grid probably sometime in my 40s when I get fed up with sucking government teat and have acquired enough resources to do so.


(Forgive me if I'm redundant since I'm only reading your OP and reply at the moment)

 

[Felan]

Your low opinion of the rest of humanity is not only false but renders you impotent to command humanity to any particular end. Being INTP is not a right to anything at all. There is nothing intrinsically special in being one of us. The greatest people of history have arisen from every type.

The many derogatory and dismissive comments you make in the OP and follow up posts suggest to me that you are not the powerful communicator you believe. Attacking and insulting others might help polarize some to your view, but on the whole you lose many more. A truly powerful communicator would be able to inspire without degrading.

You call to action is amusing to me, I've already had three plots to conquer the world foiled and presently have one plan in operation and one more in the planning stage. What have you done lately?

 

[Tyria]

''The divine light of reason, capable of recreating culture and perception in the image of your rare genius'' does not equate to the common, uninspired reason available to many. Observing the emphasis and ''divinity'' metaphor used would have prevented this misapprehension.

Breaking down any sentence into its constituent parts and then discussing the relativity of those parts will corrupt its meaning. Language, by its nature, is rough and metaphorical. Meaning may only, then, be determined by the overall conformation of words and paragraphs to form a complete message.

Additionally, there are many linguistic concepts in your post of which no ''objective scale'' exists. Unfortunately, you seem to identify the validity of a perspective with its measurability. I do not. As a painting's meaning cannot be measured by the study of individual strokes, the meaning of a considered and metaphorical piece of writing cannot be gleaned from the deconstruction of individual sentences out of context.

Disagreed. This does not work on any large scale. Observe the misapplication of the teachings of the great sages throughout history, the failure of followers to live up to their leaders and of proponents to live up to the geniuses who originated the theories they espoused. The only people who take your position are those who are not different enough to realise just how comletely different some humans are from the majority.
Example? William Blake. There are others, but his life is an adequate refutation of your position.

Taking your advice (I've done it before) is equivalent to asking a blind man to open his eyes.

It takes very little courage for an unremarkable person to admit their mediocrity.

This is just random masturbatory text, unrelated to the essential aesthetic of my OP. It will duly be ignored.


Metaphor.

My basis? What is the basis for any of your comment? All here is subjective, and aesthetic taste determines my evaluation. I regard my evaluation-- esentially and unashamedly arational-- as independent and without need of proof. Your constant references to ''proof'' outside of the context of empirical observation and induction display a slavish adherence to common cultural values:
''proof'' is only required, to people who ask for it in such situations, when their own inherited aesthetic assumptions are challenged. They do not seem to require proof of themselves for their own inherited assumptions. Thus, they (you) imply that their own opinions are somehow more objective. I'm not playing that game. All is subjective here, and my word is justified by the life I have lived and the person who I am. I am a rightful master, and do not barter and adjust my taste according to a slave's cries that it is ''not reasonable''.

Agreed with regards to solitude, but most here do not display the willpower necessary for that. They come to the watering hole and gossip and exchanged their little inherited opinions about little inherited experiences. If you are implying that a ''new world'' could be created on a forum such as this-- my refutation is the forum itself.

With regards to manipulation of systems-- your point is sloppy and irrelevant, but I agree somewhat. However, I cannot think of one example of an action which does not involve some degree of manipulation of some system (manipulation in the general sense, not the bastardised social sense).

XIII: ''I find forks useful for eating food''
You: ''Do not stick forks in your eye; it will hurt you''
XIII: ''What.The.Fuck''

I stand corrected on the first point, and I agree with the second. As for the third, you have made an incorrect assumption. I do not need a scale of measurement to appreciate the validity of your statements. My intention was to take an approach based on objectivity. However, objectivity falls apart for subjective things like what you have posted; it was my mistake. My intent was not to say that what I have said or the approach that I have taken is 'better' than what you have written. Experience shapes the lens that we view the world with; how can I know what your experiences are if I have never had them? I will try to understand, but please be patient if you decide to share them.

I agree with what you said about the painting; I will respond to everything in context from now on. However, the meaning behind a painting depends on the artist creating the work; there are many approaches that can be taken to create a work of art.

How much courage does it take for a genius to admit mediocrity when they come upon someone greater than them then?

Even if people are different from others, it doesn't mean that they are more 'deserving' than anyone else is. While their talents may be great and admirable, they are still human. I don't think you are an arrogant person, but your tone in the first post hints at it; why do you view 'normal' people the way that you do?

As for followers who do not correctly apply their sages teachings... we are all human, and we are will make mistakes. Genius may not be recognized during a person's lifetime (such as William Blake and many others). That does not mean though that their accomplishments are any less or that people are idiots for not seeing it at the time. I don't see how the teachings of the best minds are exempt from human nature; it is naive to think that great minds would not be misunderstood by their followers.

I'm sorry that advice like mine has not helped you. I hope you find what you are searching for.

Though you are a rightful master, consider that even slaves may hold pieces of wisdom of things that you have yet to have. Please do not leave yourself closed off from others; the journey for knowledge would be less desirable if all great minds did this.

As for the watering hole, I have come here to see what can be found. I have found that you are here; does your refutation of the forum extend also to yourself? Are you not here using the same watering hole as everyone else? Though a new world that you assume I am talking about may not be born here, I enjoy the company of other travelers and what they have to share. Don't you?

 

[GTPJay]

Lead me to combat sir!

 

[Mute]

Your low opinion of the rest of humanity is not only false but renders you impotent to command humanity to any particular end. Being INTP is not a right to anything at all. There is nothing intrinsically special in being one of us. The greatest people of history have arisen from every type.

The many derogatory and dismissive comments you make in the OP and follow up posts suggest to me that you are not the powerful communicator you believe. Attacking and insulting others might help polarize some to your view, but on the whole you lose many more. A truly powerful communicator would be able to inspire without degrading.

You call to action is amusing to me, I've already had three plots to conquer the world foiled and presently have one plan in operation and one more in the planning stage. What have you done lately?

In reading this response I cant help but feel you missed the point entirely.

His 'low opinion of humanity' (essientially non intps) doesn't seem particularly scathing, or degrading -that this all of a sudden "discredits him" is illogical and ignores his actual argument.

That argument does in fact presuppose that INTPs are predisposed to genius-potentially to a far greater extent than other types-and that we wallow in meekness and self pity, abhorrent of society/humanity as a whole.

Yes, its indulgent. Gorgeous logic.

edit- or maybe I'm just really blunted?

 

[snowqueen]

In reading this response I cant help but feel you missed the point entirely.

His 'low opinion of humanity' (essientially non intps) doesn't seem particularly scathing, or degrading -that this all of a sudden "discredits him" is illogical and ignores his actual argument.

That argument does in fact presuppose that INTPs are predisposed to genius-potentially to a far greater extent than other types-and that we wallow in meekness and self pity, abhorrent of society/humanity as a whole.

Yes, its indulgent. Gorgeous logic.

As Nils Bohr said, “No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical.”

Sit back and watch fascism develop. It's quite seductive isn't it, the idea of being a 'Master Race'?

Either left or right, it's always the same: "All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others"

Pure logic is not very 'P', now is it? We can think a bit better than that, thank goodness.

 

[Anthile]

I pity you, XIII. You don't understand humans. You don't understand INTPs. In fact, your opening post was quite shocking, seeing how little you really know.
It might be a noble goal to help INTPs gaining more confidence and see their strengths and help them being less whiny and angsty. I try to do that too, but far more subtle. But you are completely missing the point.
It looks like you have no idea what horror ensues when a group of humans claims to be superior to another group of humans. I assume you are not from Germany and that you neither talked to a Holocaust survivor nor that you visited a concentration camp. I was almost surprised that you didn't use a term like "master race" in one of your postings.
It seems that other people didn't treat you well in your life and thus you suffer from some kind of superiority complex.
I feel sorry that no one was there to help you when you were broken and alone.
But even that cannot be an excuse for your warped world view.
You simply don't understand humans. They are beautiful creatures but often their beauty is buried under a pile of negativity. Far too often we don't understand each other, don't understand ourselves. And thus we hurt the people we are ought to love and we misunderstand. The spiral of this goes on and on.
I can sense the beauty, their deep desires for peace, love and understanding. But something is holding them here and yet they won't try breaking its grasp. Rituals, traditions and our inability to perceive what we do to other people leaves us so divided.
No one is superior. No one is inferior. All humans are equal at heart.
A day will come when everyone will realize this simple truth - and I will fight for it.

 

[cheese]

Actually, the sentiments expressed in the OP are similar to those posted elsewhere on this board, many times over, about SJs, and occasionally SPs. The masses are uninterested in the concerns of the intellectual elite. They are incapable of being interested. How many times has one of us said something similar? This is simply a step further. Whether it's true is another issue; I'm just surprised so many seem to be taking the hypocritical stance - we are afraid of placing the next foot forward. Perhaps we fear being sorted with the goats.

 

[Anthile]

Oh, I sure have my problems with SJ and SP types. But there a huge difference between simple dislike and claiming that these people are inferior to "us".
I don't see people as what they are but more what they can be. SJ and SP are also able to achieve great things. And now you are talking about "sorting out".

 

[cheese]

I make no claims; I was simply pointing out the inconsistency.

There is no sure link between intellectual superiority (which is definitely what many users here have expressed) and overall superiority. I addressed this in another thread. It simply surprises me that suddenly everyone wishes to renege on all their statements made before. My comment on 'sorting out' was meant to suggest the hypocritical stance that arises from secretly accepting the premise but being afraid of its possible conclusion (being unworthy) and hence rejecting it in public. Being aware of the truth but unwilling to consider the possible implications.

 

[merzbau]

now x three is playing the part of napoleon. obviously he wants to end up in a bunker with a gun in his mouth...

 

[cheese]

It wouldn't matter, if approached correctly.

 

[Tyria]

I make no claims; I was simply pointing out the inconsistency.

There is no sure link between intellectual superiority (which is definitely what many users here have expressed) and overall superiority. I addressed this in another thread. It simply surprises me that suddenly everyone wishes to renege on all their statements made before. My comment on 'sorting out' was meant to suggest the hypocritical stance that arises from secretly accepting the premise but being afraid of its possible conclusion (being unworthy) and hence rejecting it in public. Being aware of the truth but unwilling to consider the possible implications.

Interesting point that you make on sorting out. However, I reject the premise presented and the idea that some humans are better or more worthy than others because of [insert quality here]. The many horrors that humanity has committed can probably trace their roots to dehumanizing the opposition and stoking ego on the home field. I recognize there is an allure to being thought of as 'special' or 'chosen', but I don't see how either of those qualities gives a person the right to have dominion over others who are not 'special' or 'chosen'.

I am beginning to wonder if the point of this thread was to reveal a masterpiece painting or as a social experiment of sorts. There seems to be an interesting divide on views expressed about the topic, and the characteristic 'meekness' of INTP seems to have been thrown right out the window in some cases XD. I just thought that I would mention it.

 

[dbell92]

.

 

[snowqueen]

Actually, the sentiments expressed in the OP are similar to those posted elsewhere on this board, many times over, about SJs, and occasionally SPs. The masses are uninterested in the concerns of the intellectual elite. They are incapable of being interested. How many times has one of us said something similar? This is simply a step further. Whether it's true is another issue; I'm just surprised so many seem to be taking the hypocritical stance

It's hypocritical to imagine that any of us do not act out of judgement and prejudice. I know one poster on here who shall probably best remain nameless who complains bitterly about SJ's but for whom that appears to be a very personal paranoia rather than an attempt to dominate. Also others who post in a jokey, mean way. That is something else altogether.

- we are afraid of placing the next foot forward. Perhaps we fear being sorted with the goats.

I don't think it's anything to do with fear, it's about understanding the difference between being judgemental or rude and wanting to dominate others and use them on the basis of their [percieved/claimed] inferiority. One is ill-mannered while the other is dangerous. The similarity in content shouldn't fool you. If I hit you over the head with a frying pan I doubt you would call it cooking.

 

[XIII]

Since both of posts consist of subjective assertions without reference to examples, the only valid way to differentiate between them is--

the aesthetic of the individual.

Your aesthetic is that of a slave, and thus you will live as a slave. Mine is that of a ruler (whether societal or intellectual), and thus I will live as a ruler. Aditionally, your words are simply ugly an uninspired. Thus, as they do not constitute rationally constructed argument, I reject them on the basis of their ugliness. They are an adequate mantra for a person such as yourself.

With regards to ''not understanding humans'', you miss my point. I find people infinitely beautiful, love interacting with them in a way which I doubt others here do, but also, because of my vast experience with them in such a wide range of contexts, understand what *they are not*. It will probably surprise you that, in person, I am highly empathetic and also highly persuasive. That requires internal editing though, which I generally attempt to avoid on this forum.

I pity you, XIII. You don't understand humans. You don't understand INTPs. In fact, your opening post was quite shocking, seeing how little you really know.
It might be a noble goal to help INTPs gaining more confidence and see their strengths and help them being less whiny and angsty. I try to do that too, but far more subtle. But you are completely missing the point.
It looks like you have no idea what horror ensues when a group of humans claims to be superior to another group of humans. I assume you are not from Germany and that you neither talked to a Holocaust survivor nor that you visited a concentration camp. I was almost surprised that you didn't use a term like "master race" in one of your postings.
It seems that other people didn't treat you well in your life and thus you suffer from some kind of superiority complex.
I feel sorry that no one was there to help you when you were broken and alone.
But even that cannot be an excuse for your warped world view.
You simply don't understand humans. They are beautiful creatures but often their beauty is buried under a pile of negativity. Far too often we don't understand each other, don't understand ourselves. And thus we hurt the people we are ought to love and we misunderstand. The spiral of this goes on and on.
I can sense the beauty, their deep desires for peace, love and understanding. But something is holding them here and yet they won't try breaking its grasp. Rituals, traditions and our inability to perceive what we do to other people leaves us so divided.
No one is superior. No one is inferior. All humans are equal at heart.
A day will come when everyone will realize this simple truth - and I will fight for it.

 

[didyouknow]

XIII are you assuming we are not happy? I see no reason to overtake society. Are you saying that we are wasting our talents? They don't want to hear from us, and an unwilling student will not learn. So we won't really be teaching them anything, we will just be making them conform to our rules, which won't accomplish anything.

I am amused by your attempt to encourage INTPs to be more willing to share their thoughts. I don't think you yet understand that when pushed, we are known to repel. This is where the 'independence' comes from and the responses are expected by myself. In what position are you to command us? Why do you consider yourself in enough authority to COMMAND us to do something 'divine'? Do you consider yourself divine?

EDIT: Cheese, I understand where you're coming from but it isn't fair to accuse everyone of this. I myself find most SJ's annoying, not stupid. Just as they probably find us annoying.

EDIT: XIII, you're funny.

 

[XIII]

Don't desecrate this with your petty little type theory. My post has nothing to do with type theory. It is addressed to the small group of individuals with great potential who have become ensnared in the traps of MBTI. It explains away their failures, when those failures could be rectified by uncompromising self honesty and self-assertion.

Oh, I sure have my problems with SJ and SP types. But there a huge difference between simple dislike and claiming that these people are inferior to "us".
I don't see people as what they are but more what they can be. SJ and SP are also able to achieve great things. And now you are talking about "sorting out".

----------------

Do you consider yourself divine?

Yes. My experience of myself is my justification for commandment. I am unlike anything humanity has thus far witnessed, and intend to create worlds and races in the image of the infinite realms which I channel. While the human who channels this Godhood is not divine in every aspect, divinity lives through him.

I am unformed.

I am white light.

I am the prism.

I am light dispersed.

I am now form.


Each form more of light and less of itself.

According to my conception of life and system of values, humanity is justified by individuals such as myself. They are the rotting waste which, by virtue of its coincidental fertility, gives rise to human Gods. Yet-- I love them. I have not, thus far, been capable of restructuring the world in the image of my Godhood, so I have settled for deifying the mundane and making the petty, worthless life that modern society has to offer into an epic adventure. I am a dancefloor for Gods. All exalts me.

Need I even respond to this thoughtless, worthless verbal diarrhea?

I'm bored so I'll bite:

My low opinion of humanity renders me impotent to command them to any particular end? Are you serious? I refer you to Hitler, Stalin, Napoleon, the Egyptian Pharaohs, the kings of Europe, the emperors of the east, empress Wu Chao... even Jesus, who despised what humanity was in favor of what it could be. Plato, with is harsh criticisms of human behavior. Blake, who created one of the most beautiful artistic worlds humanity has produced thus far, and who saw common men as ''blockheads''. Nietzsche. O.A.Spare. The list...
The basic idiocy and thougtlesness of your post is proven by that blunder alone, but I'll continue:

''There is nothing intrinsically special in being one of us. The greatest people of history have arisen from every type.''
My OP was not about type. It was adressed to the few potential greats who tend to arise with higher frequency amongst those who could (but who shouldn't) be typed as ''INT'', but who also arise amongst people who could (but shouldn't) be typed alternately.
As for intrinsically special... I disagree. I did not choose to have the gifts I have, as the greatest artists have not developed their ability in the desolate atmosphere of the common soul.

''The many derogatory and dismissive comments you make in the OP and follow up posts suggest to me that you are not the powerful communicator you believe''
You assume that the recieved communication was not the intended one, and that highly developed communication skills are necessarily used to *make* connecitons, instead of being used to more diverse and veiled ends. Limited perspective. Thoughtless.

''What have you done lately?''
Deified myself.

Your low opinion of the rest of humanity is not only false but renders you impotent to command humanity to any particular end. Being INTP is not a right to anything at all. There is nothing intrinsically special in being one of us. The greatest people of history have arisen from every type.

The many derogatory and dismissive comments you make in the OP and follow up posts suggest to me that you are not the powerful communicator you believe. Attacking and insulting others might help polarize some to your view, but on the whole you lose many more. A truly powerful communicator would be able to inspire without degrading.

You call to action is amusing to me, I've already had three plots to conquer the world foiled and presently have one plan in operation and one more in the planning stage. What have you done lately?

 

[Anthile]

The term "superiority complex", in everyday usage, refers to an overly high opinion of oneself; in psychology, it refers to the unrealistic and exaggerated belief that one is better than others. [...] Behaviors related to this mechanism may include an exaggerated opinion of one’s worth and abilities, unrealistically high expectations in goals and achievements for oneself and others, persistent attempts to correct others (regardless of whether or not they are actually correct), vanity, extravagant dressing (intent on drawing attention), excessive need for competition, pride, over-sentimentality and affected exaltation, snobbishness, a tendency to discredit others' opinions and over-forcefulness aimed at dominating those considered as weaker or less important.

.

 

[XIII]

I like this post. My previously made points stand, by I retract my more personal comments regarding your nature.

What you must bear in mind, here, is that I am presenting an essential prerequisite to commandment and greatness. I am excluding the mention of such additional tools as empathy, love, and open mindedness because, while all are invaluable, they would dilute the purity of the message.

People such as Anthile, who believe that this represents the entirety of my opinion and conception, fail to recognise that in order to break from common conception an initial extremity is necessary.
If I had presented this in terms of moral and cultural standards more familiar to readers, it would lose its worth and impact. It is meant to tear, break, and shatter. It is not meant to lead gently by the hand. Once the calcified culture of modern society has been ripped violently from the heart, then open mindedness and compassion may be relearned.

With regards to the watering hole metaphor: forms and forms. Games and games. Marionettes. Experiments. Descent to take the few by the hand and pull them back up towards my heaven.

I stand corrected on the first point, and I agree with the second. As for the third, you have made an incorrect assumption. I do not need a scale of measurement to appreciate the validity of your statements. My intention was to take an approach based on objectivity. However, objectivity falls apart for subjective things like what you have posted; it was my mistake. My intent was not to say that what I have said or the approach that I have taken is 'better' than what you have written. Experience shapes the lens that we view the world with; how can I know what your experiences are if I have never had them? I will try to understand, but please be patient if you decide to share them.

I agree with what you said about the painting; I will respond to everything in context from now on. However, the meaning behind a painting depends on the artist creating the work; there are many approaches that can be taken to create a work of art.

How much courage does it take for a genius to admit mediocrity when they come upon someone greater than them then?

Even if people are different from others, it doesn't mean that they are more 'deserving' than anyone else is. While their talents may be great and admirable, they are still human. I don't think you are an arrogant person, but your tone in the first post hints at it; why do you view 'normal' people the way that you do?

As for followers who do not correctly apply their sages teachings... we are all human, and we are will make mistakes. Genius may not be recognized during a person's lifetime (such as William Blake and many others). That does not mean though that their accomplishments are any less or that people are idiots for not seeing it at the time. I don't see how the teachings of the best minds are exempt from human nature; it is naive to think that great minds would not be misunderstood by their followers.

I'm sorry that advice like mine has not helped you. I hope you find what you are searching for.

Though you are a rightful master, consider that even slaves may hold pieces of wisdom of things that you have yet to have. Please do not leave yourself closed off from others; the journey for knowledge would be less desirable if all great minds did this.

As for the watering hole, I have come here to see what can be found. I have found that you are here; does your refutation of the forum extend also to yourself? Are you not here using the same watering hole as everyone else? Though a new world that you assume I am talking about may not be born here, I enjoy the company of other travelers and what they have to share. Don't you?

.

Your post is worthless. If you do not have the courage to argue your own points and present a unified aesthetic, then I have no interest in discussing with you. Observe any great man throughout history-- he would likely be given many such pseudo-psychological labels if he expressed himself today.

You are invited not to address me again, given that you have shown exactly how much your input is worth, and exactly how much original comment you have to offer. You are no more than a vessel for the diluted dreams of great men who lived before you.

 

[Oblivious]

I understand the point of this thread XIII.

However, those who try to change the world often become its victims. Jesus tried to change the world. Look what happened to him. The world is not meant to be changed. That is unnatural. If you think a way of life is good, exemplify it, live it, write of your exploits.

Lead by example. The first rule of Command. This is coming from a trained soldier.

No matter how good the news is, above all, freedom is the only constant. Assuming the process of deification is possible, it cannot be given to someone or taught. One must achieve his ultimate goals through his own path, through victories over his own battles.

If you see a butterfly struggling to get our of its cocoon, do not assist. All you will do is doom it. There is a natural order of all things. Everything is beautiful and complete in its own way. Nothing needs to change; everything is already changing. We simply need to become one with the cycles of nature. If we are strong enough, we will surpass and transcend it, but this strength can only be cultivated through personal discovery and understanding.

It cannot be given and should not be given.

 

[XIII]

Agreed to *an extent*, but with the caveat that discussions such as this can be thought of as correlating with the natural processes which lead to the emergence of a butterfly from its chrysalis. As previously implied, a worm cannot be made into a caterpillar. A caterpillar, though will only emerge if certain requirements are met. Discourse such as that which I offer may be the equivalent for those with the capability to emerge, and is not intended for the more static human.

Additionally, I disagree that attempting to manipulate and alter the greater course of populations of races is futile. There are many examples of success in this endeavor.

 

[didyouknow]

I'm sorry, this is just too amusing. I can't take you seriously anymore.

Please, please try to persuade me that you're god. That would be hilarious.

 

[XIII]

Obliged.

I'm sorry, this is just too amusing. I can't take you seriously anymore.

Please, please try to persuade me that you're god. That would be hilarious.

UNFORMED--

--DISCONNECTED--

This my unifying structure.

This is the self that encompasses all other selves.

Its name: play. It is the veiled gamemaster; she who creates games and enlists players; he who was, is, and shall be.

He lives through all forms, but is herself unformed.

He speaks:
All is play to me. Play is a child's exploration-- the spontaneous construction of ordered, beautiful games from the chaos the newborn encounters. Play is what people do before they are taught common life, and play is what the few relearn after they have seen that common life is but another game; a game masquerading as life itself. I am newborn. Unknowing. Universally curious.

The common adult: bored.
The child with only one game: nonextant.

She speaks:
All selves, all beliefs, all games... their transience is their vitality. So many of my sisters are lifeless, having willingly imprisoned themselves with the rules of a single game. They are near death by 18-- decay is their only future.

A single game. Petty. Little. Lifeless. Knowing. Righteous.

They are alienated from true life, but are not seduced by the boundlessness that would embrace them if only... they stepped outside of their selves.

We speak:
We have no morality. We have no belief. We have no agenda. All are decay.
Yet we enlist all in our games. All who are still players are paints for our canvas. They refuse to live beauty, so we incorporate them into our beauty. We are inhuman and all-loving. We are artists who would create death if it were beautiful.

Yet we must become players in our own games. We must descend. We are ruled by ourselves, the vehicle and servant of our own Godhood. We must live belief.

We live through forms, those forms feel and love and die. Those forms hurt and fight and hate. But they are transient. They are games.

We create the rules. We destroy the rules. We create new rules. We destroy them.

At heart, life does not convince us. It is a malleable illusion. Outrage, terror, ecstasy, revelation, littleness, love, death... all are play to us. We affirm them all.

We are unformed

We are white light.

We are the prism.

We are light dispersed.

We are now formed.

--RECONNECTED--

--FORMED--
Adjusted:
That is the truest center we have found. It is the burning light that has been emerging as the clouds of personality part. It is the God in whose mind all ideas and possibilities are perceived and formed.

This is what you must bear in mind when interpreting our work: we are-- fundamentally and absolutely-- amoral and dispassionate. We take forms, petty and divine, that experience such phenomenon as compassion and involvement and humanity; yet, we are cold. We are that which would create races and worlds out of curiosity, and destroy them for the same reason. We are architects without purpose or guild. We are beyond Bhrama, Vishnu, and Shiva, yet in ecstatic love with all.

We are not human in any sense that players of human games could understand. We are as water: cold, hot, life-giving, life-taking, chaotic, calm-- purposeless. A natural force beyond reason or explanation, yet subjecting all to our purposelessness.

Fragile, ordered human structures are dust before us. We have nothing to defend, no family to care for, no image to maintain: 1 part of our chaos thus has more power than a 100 of their order. Death is nothing to us: we die every day of our life. Our human is but an avatar of forces beyond individuality, and his individuality is nothing to him but a tool with which to create and destroy. Individuals are nothing to us: we are aeonic, transpersonal, amoral, dispassionate. Humans are but raw material to be manipulated and reformed as we will.

We are the architect. You are our creations.


XIII

 

[Jules]

I can't help but thinking about a passage from the books of Chuang Tzu:

In the time of autumn floods, a hundred streams poured into the river. It swelled in its turbid course, so that it was impossible to tell a cow from a horse on the opposite banks or on the islets. Then the Spirit of the River laughed for joy that all the beauty of the earth was gathered to himself. Down the stream he journeyed east, until he reached the North Sea. There, looking eastwards and seeing no limit to its wide expanse, his countenance began to change. And as he gazed over the ocean, he sighed and said to North-Sea Jo, "A vulgar proverb says that he who has heard a great many truths thinks no one equal to himself. And such a one am I. Formerly when I heard people detracting from the learning of Confucius or underrating the heroism of Po Yi, I did not believe it. But now that I have looked upon your inexhaustibility -- alas for me ! had I not reached your abode, I should have been for ever a laughing stock to those of great enlightenment!"

 

[XIII]

That is beautiful, but your failure in believing it relevant to me is the inability to distinguish between a person identified with his social presentation and a person who enjoys playing (and is fully prepared to appear a fool in the interests of playful learning).

 

[cheese]

Crimson_Knight, snowqueen and dyk: you've missed my point. I was speaking in possibilities, and carefully tried to point out I did not make the step between intellectual superiority and overall superiority in worth.
dyk when I said 'everyone' I was referring to the people I had mentioned in first post on this topic that had expressed those sentiments.

 

[Jules]

That is beautiful, but your failure in believing it relevant to me is the inability to distinguish between a person identified with his social presentation and a person who enjoys playing (and is fully prepared to appear a fool in the interests of playful learning).

Why would you assume I believe it to be relevant to you?

 

[didyouknow]

Wow. Just, wow. Thank you oh benevolent one! Thank you!

 

[Anthile]

13: Apparently I hit a nerve. You can't even control your own aggressions and emotions. You seem more like that god guy from the old testament. Jealous, choleric and arrogant.
More like a 13 year old spoiled brat who never experienced the burdens of life.
Even if you are a god, I wouldn't accept you. No, I couldn't.


Medice cura te ipsum.

 

[XIII]

Wow. Just, wow. Thank you oh benevolent one! Thank you!

In response to your gratitude, I have written a short (and rough) poem:

Architects Unbound

Rising
Architects with no cause and creed-unbound,
Arising from twilight realms beyond mind,
Dancing ecstatic to vision of sound,
Beyond my self yet living through my mind,

Paradox in my worlds yet sense in theirs,
Stasis shattered, shards mended to their rhyme,
I am now he who lives outside your time,
Alien but in love with your small cares.

Sense imploding, sound as vision
Time extending, lost soul risen
Worlds now merging, human death.

Avatar born. Godhood.
Descending.

Anthile: with every post you display your inability to process metaphor and novel presentation of information. You will be ignored henceforth, as you have wasted your opportunity to contribute value or insight.

EDIT: lor, I separated them for a reason. A poem deserves its own post.

 

[dbell92]

.

 

[Red Mage]

I'm going back and forth between the "Invisabul Dinasaur Hed" thread on Lostpedia and this thread and I can't decide which is funnier.

 

[didyouknow]

Red Mage, can I have a link please?

XIII, your words of arrogance have charmed me. I shall glorify you as god! Yay XIII!

 

[Anthile]

I'm going back and forth between the "Invisabul Dinasaur Hed" thread on Lostpedia and this thread and I can't decide which is funnier.

Indeed. It's been a long time since I had so much fun.
Originally I intended to watch the new Star Trek film, but ...this is just too funny.


Also, Jules==God.

 

[Red Mage]

 

[Oblivious]

XIII: Define God.

 

[Mute]

As Nils Bohr said, “No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical.”

Sit back and watch fascism develop. It's quite seductive isn't it, the idea of being a 'Master Race'?

Either left or right, it's always the same: "All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others"

Pure logic is not very 'P', now is it? We can think a bit better than that, thank goodness.

Master race is hardly what hes aiming for...my .2

Also, you've gotta suspend your disbelief for a second instead of deconstructing artificial parts of the whole to discredit/dismiss him-yes he presupposes alot, and not all within the negative context it seems many perceive-of course the potential for that deception within his text exists.

I understand the point of this thread XIII.

However, those who try to change the world often become its victims. Jesus tried to change the world. Look what happened to him. The world is not meant to be changed. That is unnatural. If you think a way of life is good, exemplify it, live it, write of your exploits.

Lead by example. The first rule of Command. This is coming from a trained soldier.

No matter how good the news is, above all, freedom is the only constant. Assuming the process of deification is possible, it cannot be given to someone or taught. One must achieve his ultimate goals through his own path, through victories over his own battles.

If you see a butterfly struggling to get our of its cocoon, do not assist. All you will do is doom it. There is a natural order of all things. Everything is beautiful and complete in its own way. Nothing needs to change; everything is already changing. We simply need to become one with the cycles of nature. If we are strong enough, we will surpass and transcend it, but this strength can only be cultivated through personal discovery and understanding.

It cannot be given and should not be given.

The world begs the sculptor's hand.

 

[preilemus]

It's like watching a movie, this entire thing, is it not?

...time to sit back and watch the remaining plot unfold

 

[didyouknow]

Who wants popcorn??

But XIII is probably above trivial things like popcorn... so none for XIII.