Breaking "bad"

[Balatonyi Lajos]

Hello everyone,

I am a 21 y.o. student of economics. As a typical INTP, I've spent my whole adolescence inside my head, thinking of philosophy, meaning of life, ethics and ideals, imagining living in different times, talking to historical figures etc. People found me strange and I had no one to talk to. Besides, I was overweight, wore cheap, ridiculously looking clothes and my mother was terribly overbearing even during my puberty. Therefore, all my peers frowned upon me, I never even kissed a girl in high school, I lacked even the tiniest shred of self-confidence, I was depressed all the time and I even thought of suicide.

As I reached adulthood and developed different, much more pragmatic view of life, I came to realization how foolish I had been. I've completly changed my way of thinking and I desperately want change my personality too, in order to become more practical, but I always find myself imprisoned in pointless thoughts of various kind. Although they no longer relate to Kant and Hegel, it's still the sort of knowledge and insight that I cannot apply.

To be perfectly frank, all I want now is to show off in front of all the people that laughed at me, bullied me, misunderstood me and -ultimately- felt sorry for me. And I believe that the INTP way of showing off, by being the brightest and wisest isn't good enough and I have to beat everyone with thier own weapons. Therefore, I lust after money and position of leadership and mainly, I'd like to be charming and f**k everything that moves. I know I'm being extremly unsympathetic and it probably wouldn't even make me happy, but I take being such a person like the ultimate challenge in my life. You know;

"We're flying to the moon; not because it's easy, but because it's hard!"

And anyway, I don't believe I should seek for a relationship, because I can hardly imagine myself in a fulfilling one.

So I started visiting a year ago and so far I've managed to turn some 30 pounds of fat into 20 pounds of muscle. Besides, I've changed my closet entirely and started reading books on psychology and social dynamics. I'm also considering piercing, earrings and tattoo. Nowdays, when I'm in a street or in a bar (drinking beer with the few friends I have), I notice women noticing me and smiling at me and it makes me happy and confident.

But...

Somehow, I'm still not up to talking to them. As a rather blunt preson, I don't fear rejection, but I can never think of anything proper to say when meeting someone. When I try to be sociable in a casual way, all I can think of is English humor and interesting facts that other people don't find interesting. Hardly enough to grant me a one night stand.

So, my question is: can I eventually learn to put on a social mask? Have some of you ever manage it? How?

And also, if I want to earn a truckload of money and become a high-ranked manager or start my own enterprise once, I believe I must change my way of thinking entirely. To constantly explore possibilities and strategies, conclude real-world solutions from principles in my head, instead of summing up real-world observations into principles. I think INTJs are far better at this, but my 'P' comes out very low at every test anyway. Can I learn to think like INTJ? Anyone of you ever made it?

Thanks for your time and patience with my English.

 

[Pyropyro]

First, welcome Balatonyi Lajos.

So, my question is: can I eventually learn to put on a social mask? Have some of you ever manage it? How?

Yes, but it will eat your psyche up. Temporarily I can be an ESFJ. By being really stressed to the point of breaking.

Can I learn to think like INTJ? Anyone of you ever made it?

No, we have different function stacks. INTP's are Ti-Ne-Si-Fe while INTJ's have Ni-Te-Fi-Se

 

[Architect]

And I thought this was about the TV show ...

I've completly changed my way of thinking and I desperately want change my personality too, in order to become more practical, but I always find myself imprisoned in pointless thoughts of various kind.

Sure, makes sense. I realized this very early that being an armchair philosopher wouldn't get me anywhere. My parents were very practicably minded which is where I probably got the idea, which isn't a bad one on the whole.

To be perfectly frank, all I want now is to show off in front of all the people that laughed at me, bullied me, misunderstood me and -ultimately- felt sorry for me.

I'd not recommend this, it probably won't end well. Do something because you want to do it, not to prove something to somebody else. Otherwise you'll do it for the wrong reasons, and even if you're doing the right thing you might probably stop doing it. Or you're doing the wrong thing for the wrong reasons and wasting your time.

So I started visiting a year ago and so far I've managed to turn some 30 pounds of fat into 20 pounds of muscle.

That's good, not sure what "visiting means" though.

Besides, I've changed my closet entirely and started reading books on psychology and social dynamics. I'm also considering piercing, earrings and tattoo. Nowdays, when I'm in a street or in a bar (drinking beer with the few friends I have), I notice women noticing me and smiling at me and it makes me happy and confident.

Sounds good. I think body art is lame though.

So, my question is: can I eventually learn to put on a social mask? Have some of you ever manage it? How?

It's just a skill. You learned how to lose weight and gain muscle, being a little social is good too. If you are an INTP then don't try to do it by acting like some super powered ESF type, just be reserved, but somewhat outgoing and warm (Ne/Fe), and use your charm and wit (Ti/Ne) to be personable.

And also, if I want to earn a truckload of money and become a high-ranked manager or start my own enterprise once

OK

Can I learn to think like INTJ? Anyone of you ever made it?

Sure, but consistently acting like one will be a psychic drain for an INTP.

Look there are many successful INTP's; Albert Einstein, Bill Gates, Larry David, Archie ... you can remain true to yourself and carve a nice path for yourself in the STJ world too.

 

[Montresor]

First you get the money

 

[redbaron]

Being motivated by wanting to, 'show off' is a pretty pointless endeavour.

One night stands are shit. Sex with someone you can connect with is infinitely better. Seems like young males are often assessing their self-worth and success by their ability to obtain STD's fuck random women. Sad really.

If you're naturally inclined to find deeper and/or hidden meanings in things through philosophy, ethics or whatever else it is you're into - superficial relations are just a temporary satiation of just that - superficial and temporary desires. Which is by no means bad, but it's not going to change anything.

Tattoos, piercings...whatever. If you think sticking a piece of metal in your ear, nose, lip, tongue, nipple, dick or anywhere else is going to make a difference, then sure, go nuts (figuratively). Maybe it will work because you think it will, which changes your attitude, and that might make a difference.

Can you learn to think like an INTJ? Sure. I modelled a lot of success after an ENTJ colleague that I worked with, I'm still not an ENTJ though and I couldn't be if I tried.

The simplest way I can explain it, is that it's about applying different techniques to different things, and adapting different programs to work on your own operating system. You can certainly learn from an, 'INTJ' approach and to leverage it to your own benefit in a limited context. Trying to change who you are though? Takes time, effort and perseverance, and changes are generally quite minor.

Best to focus on your strengths and identify what you can do with them, take advantage of the things that you're already good at.

 

[Balatonyi Lajos]

Dear Architect, thank You for Your supportive answer. As I was editing the post I accidentaly dropped the word 'gym' at the point You're referring to - Mea magna culpa

My great pleasure to be here and enjoy all the witty people around. Wish I came across this forum sooner

 

[Montresor]

I think that tats are rad but the novelty wears off and you start not liking it ... and wind up getting more ink as a result. Bad scene unless you have a great body and lots of cash to spend on beautifying it. I would at the very least recommend not getting "feeling-based" tattoos, but rather find an artist who's artwork you enjoy immensely and then have them lay it on ya (their best, that is). Artists always have better ideas than commoners. Props for abstract/"intuitive" artwork I suppose....

Let me ask you (on the subject of INTJ/INTP) ... would you prefer to acquire obscure symbols as body art or broad/brilliant/fantastic imagery?

Piercings are ... whatever. Put them in, then later take them out, when you realize how gay they are. B.F.D.... Do it at a party if you want attention, better yet, get a girl to do it at a party.


One night stands are NOT shit. Don't listen to internet dog on this. Usually he is right but for now he is perpetrating false ideals. There is absolutely nothing wrong with having the desire/urge to go plowing, even if you are INT.

What's more is the internet dog fails to acknowledge the possibility that one can actually acquire an STD from a long time girlfriend (more of a joint acquisition really) when neither party has any history of STDs or infidelity. Thus, his logic is flawed and his arguments should be discarded.


Displays of competition between human males are sexually advantageous as we can basically accept the fact that nearly all males are competing (at some level) for mating rights to nearly all females (consciously or not, instinctual drive) at all times.

Observing your environment, you see high amounts of competition in the local livestock.

The most competitive males seem to have the best luck with quantity....

The counterargument that is made is that quality prevails because our evolutionary drive is mediated (in part) by indicators that can be globally accepted as signs of "quality".

Sad to say, but a large part of what makes up the "quality" of a lover/partner is the quality of the sexual experience you have with them.

How on earth can you expect to wind up with a quality girl (who quite possibly has a large quantity of sexual experiences herself, most likely with the males you failed to out-compete) .... when you have not practiced the art of F'ng P? I just mean, why would a quality girl settle for a mediocre lover, especially when she has likely had better?



Typology is just there for us to identify and analyze certain tendencies and patterns in ourselves and others.

 

[just george]

If you had an unlimited supply of money that would never run out, what would you do every day, in detail? What kind of house would you live in? What would you eat for breakfast? What would your day look like?

If I said to you "I will offer you 5000 women, and you have to have sex with all of them - but after you do that, you have to tell me what kind of girl you would like to end up with" what kind of girl would that be? What would she look like? Would she be talkative, or quiet? Tall or short? Demanding or not? etc.

I have a lot of experience with "social dynamics" and of all the guys I interacted with, what happened was that they went out, shagged a lot of girls in a lot of situations, had a lot of drama with women/jobs that they thought that they wanted, lived a lifestyle that they thought they wanted, and then after all was said and done, ended up in a pretty normal position, with a regular girl (that they liked a lot), in a regular job/business (that they liked a lot) etc, and ended up being quite happy.

I am 99% sure that you aren't capable of thinking this way at the moment, because it sounds like you want to go out and validate yourself ie "I had sex with her, therefore I am good" and "I have more money than him, therefore I am good" type thinking - so all I will say is that you are about to go out and spend a LOT of energy proving something to people who don't really matter. The only people who matter are your close friends, family, and yourself. The only things that matter are your relationships with those people, and how much you personally enjoy your lifestyle.

Somewhere in the middle of all that chaos (and it will be chaos) take a moment or two to ask yourself what you are doing, who for, and if you had ultimate abundance in the world (any job, any girl, any house etc) - would it look like your situation at the time? (and if the two are different, it then begs the question "what should I be doing instead?)

Anyway I'll shutup now. Get a good pickup mentor. An older guy, who started around where you are, and got to where you want to be approximately. It'll save you a lot of time.

 

[Cavallier]

Welcome and all that.

I moved this thread to Introit as I feels more like an intro thread than anything else.

 

[Balatonyi Lajos]

If you had an unlimited supply of money that would never run out, what would you do every day, in detail? What kind of house would you live in? What would you eat for breakfast? What would your day look like?

Well... I'm perfectly fine with bread, butter, ham and tomato
Anyway, I'm not very imaginative in this area, so I'll give you just regular working class' John Doe answer: I can see myself in my early 50s; having came up with some brilliant business strategy in my late 20s, that had earned my employer a zillion euros and made me the company's superstar and a head of my department; then having sucked a few dicks in my mid 30s in order to get a chair in the company's BoD; then having earned enough money to start my own little enterprise in my early 40s; then having stabbed my business partner in his back in my late 40s; then magically having sold the company for more than it had been worth. In my vision, I'm burning the last few drops of gasoline remaining on this planet, in my old but well-kept Ford Mustang Shelby GT 4th generation, wind waving the last few hair on my head, on a solitary trip around the globe. I'm travelling across Africa and Middle East, buying incredibly cheap food and water for thousands of poor people, dying from hunger and thirst, with the money that my company had ripped them off with the invisible hand of Mr. Smith. And then, when I almost run out of money, I drive home and ultimately realizing how pointless my life and the whole world is, I press the gas pedal to the floor and I hit the side wall of my garage at full throttle.

 

[Absurdity]

Welcome.

Something the others here have mentioned but I want to point out directly is that you are allowing your self worth to be determined by others. This is hallmark behavior of an INTP in the grip of their inferior extroverted feeling function which drives them to seek the acclaim of others. You need to realize that this is happening and learn to derive your self worth from within.

As a side not, deriving self worth from within can lead to the casual indifference and aloofness that so many pretty girls with low self-esteem seem to crave... However I think going that route will be unsatisfying and ring hollow. King Solomon (INTP? INTJ? ENTJ?) found that out millennia ago:

I said to myself, “Come now, I will test you with pleasure to find out what is good.” But that also proved to be meaningless. “Laughter,” I said, “is madness. And what does pleasure accomplish?” I tried cheering myself with wine, and embracing folly—my mind still guiding me with wisdom. I wanted to see what was good for people to do under the heavens during the few days of their lives.

I undertook great projects: I built houses for myself and planted vineyards. I made gardens and parks and planted all kinds of fruit trees in them. I made reservoirs to water groves of flourishing trees. I bought male and female slaves and had other slaves who were born in my house. I also owned more herds and flocks than anyone in Jerusalem before me. I amassed silver and gold for myself, and the treasure of kings and provinces. I acquired male and female singers, and a harem as well—the delights of a man’s heart. I became greater by far than anyone in Jerusalem before me. In all this my wisdom stayed with me.

I denied myself nothing my eyes desired;
I refused my heart no pleasure.
My heart took delight in all my labor,
and this was the reward for all my toil.
Yet when I surveyed all that my hands had done
and what I had toiled to achieve,
everything was meaningless, a chasing after the wind;
nothing was gained under the sun.​

 

[just george]

Well... I'm perfectly fine with bread, butter, ham and tomato
Anyway, I'm not very imaginative in this area, so I'll give you just regular working class' John Doe answer: I can see myself in my early 50s; having came up with some brilliant business strategy in my late 20s, that had earned my employer a zillion euros and made me the company's superstar and a head of my department; then having sucked a few dicks in my mid 30s in order to get a chair in the company's BoD; then having earned enough money to start my own little enterprise in my early 40s; then having stabbed my business partner in his back in my late 40s; then magically having sold the company for more than it had been worth. In my vision, I'm burning the last few drops of gasoline remaining on this planet, in my old but well-kept Ford Mustang Shelby GT 4th generation, wind waving the last few hair on my head, on a solitary trip around the globe. I'm travelling across Africa and Middle East, buying incredibly cheap food and water for thousands of poor people, dying from hunger and thirst, with the money that my company had ripped them off with the invisible hand of Mr. Smith. And then, when I almost run out of money, I drive home and ultimately realizing how pointless my life and the whole world is, I press the gas pedal to the floor and I hit the side wall of my garage at full throttle.

Look, do you want to help yourself, or act like a child?

I asked a specific question for a specific reason. I didn't ask for what you wanted your life to look like at the end, because that's the standard stupid answer from people who don't realize that like is the thing you do every day, not the story you tell at the end of it.

I would suggest that you think about whether you want to be a businessman and do what a businessman does, or if you just want to have what you think a businessman has.

 

[r4ch3l]

I am a 21 y.o. student of economics. As a typical INTP, I've spent my whole adolescence inside my head, thinking of philosophy, meaning of life, ethics and ideals, imagining living in different times, talking to historical figures etc.

You're off to a better start than me. I was so lost when I was in college that I accidentally actually got a degree in philosophy.

People found me strange and I had no one to talk to. Besides, I was overweight, wore cheap, ridiculously looking clothes and my mother was terribly overbearing even during my puberty. Therefore, all my peers frowned upon me, I never even kissed a girl in high school, I lacked even the tiniest shred of self-confidence, I was depressed all the time and I even thought of suicide.

I had a similar experience (extreme dweeb, social outcast, bullying, no confidence) in middle school and high school. I feel like a lot of my life choices from 16 -- 22 or so were completely reactive to being so ostracized and miserable. Reexamine the root of your desire to change. These kids were probably mostly a) assholes and b) stupid and c) you didn't/wouldn't want to be friends with them anyway so just let it go. Really. The past is a heavy weight to carry and reactive decisions/motivations are usually not rational decisions/motivations.

As I reached adulthood and developed different, much more pragmatic view of life, I came to realization how foolish I had been. I've completly changed my way of thinking and I desperately want change my personality too, in order to become more practical, but I always find myself imprisoned in pointless thoughts of various kind.

What does practical mean to you? Do you just mean getting more outside your own head? That's a tough one for INTPs. Maybe a lot of your pain in your earlier years came from being rejected for being so awkward and aloof but if you want the proverbial cars and the clothes/the money and the hoes it's your secret weapon and you should focus on developing it. Because:

As a side not, deriving self worth from within can lead to the casual indifference and aloofness that so many pretty girls with low self-esteem seem to crave...

To be perfectly frank, all I want now is to show off in front of all the people that laughed at me, bullied me, misunderstood me and -ultimately- felt sorry for me. And I believe that the INTP way of showing off, by being the brightest and wisest isn't good enough and I have to beat everyone with thier own weapons. Therefore, I lust after money and position of leadership and mainly, I'd like to be charming and f**k everything that moves. I know I'm being extremly unsympathetic and it probably wouldn't even make me happy, but I take being such a person like the ultimate challenge in my life. You know;

I believe as others have said that you're experiencing what they call a "grip experience". There's a lot of info about this on the board if you search and learning about it has helped me understand myself and why I've done so much of the stupid shit I've done (looking for validation, wanting to "pass" socially) and thought (extremely grandiose fantasies of doing hugely important things).

So, my question is: can I eventually learn to put on a social mask? Have some of you ever manage it? How?

Sort of. I got really obsessed with learning how to do it for awhile because, like you, my motivation was learning how to avoid the pain that I experienced during my awkward and painful younger years. This is a bad reason to do anything, trust me. I've bounced around between jobs that are Ti-heavy (technical writing, web design, creating databases, patent drafting) and jobs that give me that shot of Fe validation that I want for bad reasons (makeup artist, stripper, bartender) where I practice at learning social cues, improvisation, reading people. When I get it "right" or "pass" I feel validated. But it's stupid. In the long run these jobs are boring dead-ends that I got into for immature reasons. And when I leave the Fe-heavy jobs I revert back to my normal, awkward, messy self. I have to really practice to stay decent at it.

A positive thing I did that helped me learn to utilize social masks was traveling alone. This got me out of my head, helped me learn to make decisions in real-time, and showed me that if I am forced to I can make friends anytime, anywhere.

And also, if I want to earn a truckload of money and become a high-ranked manager or start my own enterprise once, I believe I must change my way of thinking entirely. To constantly explore possibilities and strategies, conclude real-world solutions from principles in my head, instead of summing up real-world observations into principles. I think INTJs are far better at this, but my 'P' comes out very low at every test anyway. Can I learn to think like INTJ? Anyone of you ever made it?

If it's that difficult maybe jobs in analysis are better than management jobs for you?
I know a lot of INTJs and there's no way I'm ever going to be able to emulate one long-term. We are different in fundamental ways. I do think that striving to be more "J" can help ultra-scatterbrained INTPs (like me) and that there are resources that can help. Just keep pushing yourself out of your comfort zone, re-check your motivation, and try not to overthink things (I know, easier said than done). This is the INTP curse and it's just gonna mess you up more. INTJs act. If you want to be like one, act.

Something the others here have mentioned but I want to point out directly is that you are allowing your self worth to be determined by others. This is hallmark behavior of an INTP in the grip of their inferior extroverted feeling function which drives them to seek the acclaim of others. You need to realize that this is happening and learn to derive your self worth from within.

Yep. Reminds me of me in college. Let me be a warning to you, OP. Such grandiosity and valuing externalities is only going to result in worse things in the future. I'm still slowly crawling out of fail now because of the decisions I made during that time.

And stick around. This place has helped me understand a lot of the stuff I went through and am going through now and draft up a modified plan about where I am going and why.

 

[TimeAsylums]

Welcome, I've never seen a newcomer get so many responses so quickly!

I know you're enjoying everyone's "factual opinions" about what is/n't worth/less.

Your english seems just fine, didn't even notice until you said "excuse my english."

Just do you

 

[Balatonyi Lajos]

Look, do you want to help yourself, or act like a child?

I asked a specific question for a specific reason. I didn't ask for what you wanted your life to look like at the end, because that's the standard stupid answer from people who don't realize that like is the thing you do every day, not the story you tell at the end of it.

I would suggest that you think about whether you want to be a businessman and do what a businessman does, or if you just want to have what you think a businessman has.

Funny, how our answers are determined by our personality. So, after deep and meaningless contemlation on several different responses, I think that the right one for ENTP would be, we'll see what happens when I finish my studies and get a job

 

[doncarlzone]

Great post @r4ch3l - I'm still in it but you seem a bit further than me.

Unfortunately it is difficult to shoot down these urges of external validation by reasoning alone.

When I was in OP's position and age, I remember having the exact same discussions with people older than me. Back then, I thought that the older people (us in this thread), were basically just boring people who had given up on all of their dreams, not because they did not have those dreams, but because they had accepted the fact that they would never be achieved.

However, what I have found is that I never "gave up" on those my earlier dreams, I've just come to the conclusion that they were immature and rather pathetic.

 

[Etheri]

My overopinionated uninformed view on the matter is that you're definitely just looking for a place to fit in. You're trying to change just about anything about yourself in a desperate attempt to impress just about anyone, preferably people who you feel have wronged or misunderstood you.

Search no longer, you'll fit right in here. Welcome.