Your Gender Identity and Sexual identity

[BigApplePi]

1 - Predominantly heterosexual, only incidentally homosexual.

Agent Intellect. Not sure if you were referring to my post with your "1" but it applies anyway in the sense of it not being painful if one's physical interest is low.

(1) Both food and sex are painful when one has zero of it (for the average person).

Continuing with the food/sex parallel, a person can have a low sensual/sexual appetite for anything. There are those who don't care for wine, there are the average persons, and there are super-tasters who can distinguish and take a great interest in tasting variations.

I am average; my wife (I estimate) has a poor sense of smell. My physical interest in sex used to be average. Because of my age my physical interest has gone way way down, but my observation and sexual interest looking at faces down to their twenties has stayed the same or even improved as I'm less blinded by sex*. That gets a higher rating than (1). Among a macho group of males that's hard to admit, but too bad.
_____________

*I'm not sure what I mean by that without further introspection.

 

[BigApplePi]

Identity, Sexual Identity & Value

I had listed what I thought could be sexual stages. Allow me to extend those (Note Da Blob.)
(1) Both food and sex are painful when one has zero of it (for the average person).
(2) Being fed and having an orgasm bring temporary relief.
(3) After coming of age, the experience of hunger and gaining satisfaction are or can be enjoyed or suffered in varied ways.
(4) Mating is an advancement to mere hunger and satisfaction.
(5) Building a union is longer-term and therefore an advancement to mating.

(6) Long term union leads to family.
(7) Extended families are ... ahem ... extensions of families or tribe.
(8) Multiple tribes (people who lack closeness to each other).

There are physiological needs which are expressed as psychological 'hungers'.
There have been any numbers of studies that have shown that psychological hungers can be manipulated. In fact, there are those who advocate a Hegelian dialectic of society that postulate that all societies function by manipulating psychological hunger, turning in it away from a natural self-serving gratification to an 'un-natural' gratification of the group.

It is possible there is a drive stronger than sex, sex being only a central need that holds stronger needs together. That is the need for security in the form of food, clothing and shelter. Family (6) fulfills this immediate need. Extended family or tribe (7) does even better*. One could propose society is maximized by maximum welfare of (7). (8) Could represent competitive tribes which may or may not be a higher form of security because of inter-tribe warfare as a drawback.

As far sex, all sex can be seen as masturbation, of one form or another. Humans' levels of pleasure are often heighten by the inclusion of Sex Objects/toys in the act. To claim that there are genetic dispositions for particular Sex Objects/Toys is really quite a dubious claim, IMO. Instead it is a matter of the exercise of free will, which form of sex object/toy provides the greatest pleasure for the slightest risk/investment?

The human relationship facet of sexual activity could be a lot broader than most realize, particularly if Freud's work has any validity in the matter. If a person's ambitions extend beyond the immediate gratification provided by an orgasm, Then the Sex Object could be used to fulfill other psychological hungers and physiological needs.

I believe that one of these hungers is for a family and the companionship and shelter such can offer. Some would stipulate that progeny are necessary, for a couple to evolve into a family, but I do not see that as a prerequisite. By the same token, sex is not a prerequisite for the formation of family either, just a common coincidence.

If one buys that (6) is better than (5) or (4) living-wise, then consciousness will be directed toward the family so masturbation would recede more to the subconscious background for a family.

As fore mentioned the survival of the group may depend on the frustration of natural tendencies which are then channeled into socially beneficial expression. The desire for sex seems to be one that every society has found a way to frustrate. In fact one wonders if a society can survive without common sexual mores as a source for generating frustrated energy.

Personally, I doubt it.

If one rates family (6) higher than say (4) or lower, then sex needs to be frustrated lest it mess up family. One can see in today's society, families have become less important**, so the interest in the more explicit forms of sex come more to the forefront.
____________________________
*Why? Because extended family contains grandparents, aunts, uncles, gays, creative people, and any number of other socially valuable persons who are not required to directly reproduce, but who indirectly support.
**Topic for another thread.

 

[BigApplePi]

Adaire. I lost ya when you said, "Those who know me for any significant amount of time, universally comment on my apparently masculine personality." What is that? You mean you are more assertive than passive ... or something else?

 

[Reluctantly]

Identifying yourself by gender, race, religion or nationality seems simple minded to me.

Yeah, I guess. But with gender, at least, wouldn't it be a bit weird not to want to have some idea, since attraction and proclivities are beyond just willful control? Might as well make an effort to be 'aware', if it's going to have some influence over your life, even if it's hard to categorize it accurately. At least, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

I imagine if I were male, I'd be a chronic crossdresser. Indeed, I wish I knew more males that cross-dressed convincingly. Perhaps the next time I hear male discussing how he feels like a lesbian in a man's body, I shall challenge their bluff by inviting them out on a strictly lesbian date with me. I typically find 'dressup' mind-numbing, but I think this would be an endlessly entertaining challenge.

If you don't like dressup, he could be the one to dress up. He could be a femme and you could be a butch/tomboy. I bet that would really confuse people. And then you would both get what you wanted. I could so enjoy something like that, as weird as it might sound.

 

[Deleted member 1424]

Adaire. I lost ya when you said, "Those who know me for any significant amount of time, universally comment on my apparently masculine personality." What is that? You mean you are more assertive than passive ... or something else?

I have a surface personality that is meant entirely for people I never intend to invest in. It was created to avoid irritating inquiry and to pacify individuals too tiresome to properly correct.

It has served me well, but it means I need more exposure to people before my proper personality manifests. It's become somewhat compulsive, or I wouldn't do it at all.

 

[BigApplePi]

I have a surface personality that is meant entirely for people I never intend to invest in. It was created to avoid irritating inquiry and to pacify individuals too tiresome to properly correct.

It has served me well, but it means I need more exposure to people before my proper personality manifests. It's become somewhat compulsive, or I wouldn't do it at all.

I suppose it is an ideal if one didn't HAVE to put on a mask. If I can just be myself under what are stressful situations, well then I wouldn't have to be so ... stressed. At the same time I need to know what is stressing OTHER people. This gives me clues on how to relieve THEM of stress which in turn expands and relaxes ME.

 

[redbaron]

I don't identify with any of those gender roles.

Scored a 0 on the test.

 

[Mysty]

Weird, right? The embarrassing thing is, I'm not even sure what that makes me.

I think it just makes you a true SNAG. A sensitive new age guy . Where were you when I was dating?

I am assuming you are still quite young. I am not young, but I noticed at my sons kindergarten that quite a few of the fathers are really hands on caring parents who in the traditional sense could be termed as 'feminine traits' but are every bit male and every bit a father. I have known a few dads who have been the primary carer of their children too. I wonder if they too at times wondered if they were weird? I reckon all of them were intuitive types actually. Their wives were all non-typical woman, probably NTs actually, not the fluffy girls types, but still feminine women. Anyway, what I am driving at is maybe you just have not yet met your match yet, you have met the wrong sort of woman for you. For example, I myself am a woman, but I never was attracted to the EST or ESF type men as they came on way too strong for me, but they would be the more typical pinup boy that women are meant to drop their knickers for, but they just scared me really.

I have noticed lately that I think gender stereotypes seem to be strengthening and getting more rigid and narrow, and it is leaving a huge number of people feeling a bit left out. I actually think if I were growing up now I might wonder if I wasn't a bit different myself. I do not identify with the typical girl, but I find that it is pretty much all explained by MBTi type.

By the way I came out as indeterminate or unusual when I did the quiz - now that I do find odd!

 

[Deleted member 1424]

If you don't like dressup, he could be the one to dress up. He could be a femme and you could be a butch/tomboy. I bet that would really confuse people. And then you would both get what you wanted. I could so enjoy something like that, as weird as it might sound.

Well fixing him up and parading him about is what would be the fun part.

If I was going to go butch, it'd have to be a classy butch; pinstripe suit maybe... I'd have to do something about my height.

hmm

sidenote:

Don't feel weird. You're awesome.

 

[Agent Intellect]

Agent Intellect. Not sure if you were referring to my post with your "1" but it applies anyway in the sense of it not being painful if one's physical interest is low.

No, I was referring to the score I got on the test. I didn't really consider myself to be that "gender normative" though. I've always considered sexual orientation an empirical observation as opposed to a categorical fact - I have not had a homosexual attraction yet, but it doesn't rule it out (although, since my girlfriend is transgendered, some might argue that point with me).

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

This gender identity/sexual identity stuff leads me to believe that the world has digressed to a pile of shit. It is just another avenue for people who realize that they are the same decaying sacks of meat as everyone else and feel insecure about such a realization to purport that they're different and special.

 

[Grove]

In case all the new ENTPs don't know yet, Proxy is an INTJ. He's super cuddly.

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

In case all the new ENTPs don't know yet, Proxy is an INTJ. He's super cuddly.

Awwww

(Actually I don't care about sexual or gender identities...) :P

 

[Duxwing]

Wait, you mean you hadn't figured it out before??

I thought that she was a very funny twenty-year-old dude. What's even cooler is how little gender matters here; it's such a relief.

-Duxwing

 

[Inappropriate Behavior]

I thought that she was a very funny twenty-year-old dude. What's even cooler is how little gender matters here; it's such a relief.

-Duxwing

Eh, I thought she was a dude too. I'm not going to treat her any differently as I am apparently non-sexual

Stupid test...

Indeed

 

[Duxwing]

I'm a heterosexual male. I never doubted it, though I do tend to stay away from romance: it's too much risk and work for a dubious and strange reward.

-Duxwing

 

[redbaron]

I think it just makes you a true SNAG. A sensitive new age guy.

You mean there's an actual term for being a suck-ass crybaby now? Not surprised that it rhymes with the word FAG to be honest.

Just saying.

Unless you're just referring to men who care about their children 'hands-on' (in before paedophiles). In which case I don't think that's seen as a feminine trait at all. Since when was playing games with your kids considered effeminate?

 

[Mysty]

You mean there's an actual term for being a suck-ass crybaby now? Not surprised that it rhymes with the word FAG to be honest.

Just saying.

do you mean to say you have been hiding under some bush these last 10 years or so? that terminology has been around a long time..... it was usually used as a bit of a jokey sort of a term.

Unless you're just referring to men who care about their children 'hands-on' (in before paedophiles). In which case I don't think that's seen as a feminine trait at all. Since when was playing games with your kids considered effeminate?

hmm, I guess I gave a pretty half-assed description which failed miserably. If I said these few dads were maybe INFP types and were not the rough and tumble fun dads, but were so in tune with the kids feelings in an empathetic way - which was not effeminate (they were not giving off gay vibes, but they were not overly masculine) but quite frankly, most men don't have this particular quality, and for that matter a lot of women don't either. But it is more commonly seen in women than men. The gender stereotype of men is very one dimensional, that they don't have feelings etc - and of course I am sure everyone here knows that is not true. FWIW, I work in a male dominated industry and know a lot of men (many of them your typical family man that plays games with his kids) but I had never ever come across any men before that were like the kindy dads I attempted to describe. So if I had not met this kind of man - perhaps the OP has not met one either! But they are out there, and they are not weird, but they don't neatly fit the male stereotype - which is absurdly narrow.

 

[Jennywocky]

Okay, so let's say a guy is straight, but feels like they relate more to women than men. You're saying their gender identity is thought to be as ingrained as their sexual identity? I could see that being the case for me.

That's a little vague. What do you mean by "relate better to women than men"? Some men do feel they relate to women better, but still view themselves as men; for some, "relating to women better" could be an understatement...

Typically we see some brain structure deviation in transsexuals who haven't even undergone hormone therapy, so it's not a stretch to imagine that there's some kind of biological undercurrent reinforcing it. Not sure how that applies to the entire transgender spectrum, there's a lot of motivation and expressions under that umbrella....

 

[Reluctantly]

I think it just makes you a true SNAG. A sensitive new age guy . Where were you when I was dating?

I am assuming you are still quite young. I am not young, but I noticed at my sons kindergarten that quite a few of the fathers are really hands on caring parents who in the traditional sense could be termed as 'feminine traits' but are every bit male and every bit a father. I have known a few dads who have been the primary carer of their children too. I wonder if they too at times wondered if they were weird? I reckon all of them were intuitive types actually. Their wives were all non-typical woman, probably NTs actually, not the fluffy girls types, but still feminine women. Anyway, what I am driving at is maybe you just have not yet met your match yet, you have met the wrong sort of woman for you. For example, I myself am a woman, but I never was attracted to the EST or ESF type men as they came on way too strong for me, but they would be the more typical pinup boy that women are meant to drop their knickers for, but they just scared me really.

I have noticed lately that I think gender stereotypes seem to be strengthening and getting more rigid and narrow, and it is leaving a huge number of people feeling a bit left out. I actually think if I were growing up now I might wonder if I wasn't a bit different myself. I do not identify with the typical girl, but I find that it is pretty much all explained by MBTi type.

You know, that's the thing that scares me about children. I'm good with children and they like me, maybe because I'm not much of a guy. But it would be really easy for someone to take my interacting out of context and easily assume I'm a pedophile. But if I was a woman, it wouldn't even be an issue.

By the way I came out as indeterminate or unusual when I did the quiz - now that I do find odd!

That test is probably kind of stupid then, lol.

Well fixing him up and parading him about is what would be the fun part.

If I was going to go butch, it'd have to be a classy butch; pinstripe suit maybe... I'd have to do something about my height.

Wow, it is nice to know you don't think it's weird or repulsive.

This gender identity/sexual identity stuff leads me to believe that the world has digressed to a pile of shit. It is just another avenue for people who realize that they are the same decaying sacks of meat as everyone else and feel insecure about such a realization to purport that they're different and special.

I wish. I thought about cutting off my genitals today (in passing). I think I hate gender. It makes no sense. I don't know why I need to have one. It's very annoying.

You mean there's an actual term for being a suck-ass crybaby now? Not surprised that it rhymes with the word FAG to be honest.

Just saying.

Unless you're just referring to men who care about their children 'hands-on' (in before paedophiles). In which case I don't think that's seen as a feminine trait at all. Since when was playing games with your kids considered effeminate?

I was wondering how long it would take till the trolls would come out. I have to admit though, people who try to associate feminine guys with being weak or sensitive (and sometimes gay), do kind of slightly irritate me. But I guess there are guys like that. The one that bugs me the most is 'sissy'; it's like they are similar to me, except have a fetish with being extremely feminine or something and debased and controlled by women for it or something, I don't really get it. But there's so much weird shit on the internet, I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

That's a little vague. What do you mean by "relate better to women than men"? Some men do feel they relate to women better, but still view themselves as men; for some, "relating to women better" could be an understatement...

...well, for instance, one woman slept with me just because she thought I didn't want to have sex with her. I just liked being around her and I guess that led to romance and then sex as a secondary occurrence. I think she meant that I wasn't interested in sex as much as romance. Later, she became frustrated that I didn't want to dominate her in bed. Sometimes I like going down and not actually fucking (this made her feel unattractive, which made me feel like a freak); she was turned off by me being so submissive, but when I pretended to do what she wanted (mostly out of frustration or anger) she loved it. And she isn't the only one...

...Then there's the fact that when a relationship ends I always get the same compliments/complaints. I'm very affectionate, but don't have the 'manly' assertive and dominating characteristics that they would rather have. Women who say they like affectionate or feminine men seem to be full of shit, most of the time, even if they don't understand yet why.

...Usually because I'm as emotional as they are, fighting can be pretty charged, whereas men tend to offset that (at least when they aren't objectifying someone's emotions). Women think I'm just as emotional as they are, sometimes even suggesting I am bipolar because of it. And I'm not really able to separate my emotions from situations like a guy can. Everything is emotional and it's frustrating , especially when the woman is too and we both then want someone who doesn't have that problem!

Quite honestly though, I'm damn jealous of the way women look. I always have been. When I was younger I was disappointed by my facial appearance. I wanted a smoother, rounder face, without even realizing it and was judging my attractiveness based on that. I wanted to be a more feminine neutral kind of pretty, kind of like...Justin Bieber. If he wanted to cross-dress, I'm sure he could be really convincing. I'm actually pretty jealous, but I bet he has no interest in it.
Seriously, look at him, lol.

I feel like men have something wrong with their appearance. I don't know why, but maybe this is normal for a heterosexual.

 

[Felan]

I guess BiGender fits me best.

Kinsey wasn't very helpful, but I suspect it is designed for people with strong gender identity.
FThe test failed to match you to a Kinsey Type profile. Either you answered some questions wrong, or you are a very unusual person.

 

[BigApplePi]

No, I was referring to the score I got on the test. I didn't really consider myself to be that "gender normative" though. I've always considered sexual orientation an empirical observation as opposed to a categorical fact - I have not had a homosexual attraction yet, but it doesn't rule it out (although, since my girlfriend is transgendered, some might argue that point with me).

Agent Intellect. Sorry. My mistake on the score. I'm really confused about the language though. I had to look up Transgender but it's not helping much. Your girlfriend is physically female but thinks male or the other way around? Or something else? I'm not versed in this.

 

[Jennywocky]

Thanks for all the detail, that helped immensely...

...well, for instance, one woman slept with me just because she thought I didn't want to have sex with her. I just liked being around her and I guess that led to romance and then sex as a secondary occurrence. I think she meant that I wasn't interested in sex as much as romance.

...which appealed to her vs having some guy chase after her just to bang?

Later, she became frustrated that I didn't want to dominate her in bed. Sometimes I like going down and not actually fucking (this made her feel unattractive, which made me feel like a freak); she was turned off by me being so submissive, but when I pretended to do what she wanted (mostly out of frustration or anger) she loved it. And she isn't the only one...

I totally understand that one. She wanted you to take the traditional masculine role because that's what she is turned on by / responds to, but it's not a natural direction for you. In fact, it sounds like you have a much more natural "feminine" bent.

...Then there's the fact that when a relationship ends I always get the same compliments/complaints. I'm very affectionate, but don't have the 'manly' assertive and dominating characteristics that they would rather have. Women who say they like affectionate or feminine men seem to be full of shit, most of the time, even if they don't understand yet why.

lol. Yes, I think they are too. Basically, many women seem to want a guy who "gets them" and cares about their emotional/relational needs, but at the same time, they want him to take a masuline role in the relationship, not the one they experience with the female friends. Feminine guys can do the former but not the latter; and so they feel like they're just with another girl rather than with a guy who is doing things to satisfy them emotionally. The thing is that you won't typically find a masculine guy who is feminine...! Or at least, he needs time to develop sensitivity and learn how to shift gears. It's not like women are any different, where we have to develop some "masculine" traits as part of our growth cycle.

...Usually because I'm as emotional as they are, fighting can be pretty charged, whereas men tend to offset that (at least when they aren't objectifying someone's emotions). Women think I'm just as emotional as they are, sometimes even suggesting I am bipolar because of it. And I'm not really able to separate my emotions from situations like a guy can. Everything is emotional and it's frustrating , especially when the woman is too and we both then want someone who doesn't have that problem!

I get it. It's all relational, not a detacted thing. Guys typically just blow up, then are fine a minute or two later and can hang out and do whatever. It seems a shame though in that, despite your way of approaching it, you might also possess the sensitivity to work through it a way that girls should understand; if the guy they were dating was so masculine, they'd be complaining about how he wasn't sensitive and didn't care about her feelings.

Quite honestly though, I'm damn jealous of the way women look. I always have been. When I was younger I was disappointed by my facial appearance. I wanted a smoother, rounder face, without even realizing it and was judging my attractiveness based on that. I wanted to be a more feminine neutral kind of pretty, kind of like...Justin Bieber. If he wanted to cross-dress, I'm sure he could be really convincing. I'm actually pretty jealous, but I bet he has no interest in it.

I honestly wondered for awhile about whether he was gay or gender-variant or something, but it doesn't seem to be the case... which is ironic, as I know gay teens who have his picture on their wall. But I'm reminded of when I grew up, and guys like Leif Garrett and Shaun Cassidy and Davey Jones were the pinup "rockers" because they were this blend of male/female.

I feel like men have something wrong with their appearance. I don't know why, but maybe this is normal for a heterosexual.

　
I don't know. For me personally, I don't find overly masculine men to be that attractive -- you know, with the brow ridges and all the hair and broad jaw, etc. As far as faces go, Chris Evans is about as masculine as I go (and I think his chin is too big), and typically less than that -- although I don't like elfin/feminine looking males.
　

You know, that's the thing that scares me about children. I'm good with children and they like me, maybe because I'm not much of a guy. But it would be really easy for someone to take my interacting out of context and easily assume I'm a pedophile. But if I was a woman, it wouldn't even be an issue.

yes, that sucks. I mean, that's because statistically it's uncommon for men to be into that kind of role and very common for women. But it's not fair to those of you who have a valid orientation in that direction.

My 16-year-old son actually really gets into baby-sitting. Ironically, he identifies as gay and has 'feminine' aspects to his personality. But pedophiles would piss him off (he thinks the behavior is despicable) and he would never ever want to do that.

So how do you actually identify? Do you still view yourself as "male"? or asexual? Or gender-variant? or something else? Or is it not even an issue of importance, aside from others making it so?

Agent Intellect. Sorry. My mistake on the score. I'm really confused about the language though. I had to look up Transgender but it's not helping much. Your girlfriend is physically female but thinks male or the other way around? Or something else? I'm not versed in this.

Well, my guess is that she was born as a he, due to the possibility he said that some claim he has a homosexual attraction (which I think is kind of silly -- he's obviously attracted to the woman she is, not the masculinized body she might have had previously)... but it'll be more clear after the explanation, I guess.

 

[BigApplePi]

@Reluctantly. Let me just say at 1st I'm having a terrible time getting an intuitive feel for this thread, but I think I'm gaining. So I will reply to you here.

Honestly? I think I'd prefer a female body...but I'd be a lesbian. Does that make sense? I've heard the term male-lesbian once before, but it doesn't really fit, since I never felt I didn't fit being a man, but that I relate to a woman's role on an instinctive level and don't like not being able to do that at times.

I understand woman's roles better than men's (I haven't been tested to check this out) but I attribute that to being around females more than males growing up ... except for when I was around males more than females during the juvenile period.

I once wore some of my ex-girlfriend's clothes just to see what she thought. She liked it when I wore her lipstick during sex, but putting on her underpants freaked her out and she didn't want any intimacy for the rest of that day and she wondered if I was into men. And if I ever did it again, she said she wouldn't want to see me anymore. That was a pretty surprising response to me. I guess I thought it would be hot to be more feminine for her. It was probably the most humiliating reaction I could have gotten, but reading around on the internet, it seems that's a normal reaction from heterosexual woman. That does bother me a bit...that I could be that weird.

I can't quarrel with that if you think it sexy. One possibility there would be to switch underpants instead of you alone doing it. I'm sure she just didn't take to the non-traditional image of a male.

The weird thing is I don't generally like playing the penetrative role during sex because usually that means I'm supposed to act like I want to ravage the other person when I'd rather focus on giving pleasure than dominating. Male domination seems to be a psychological turn-on for the majority of women. I don't really get it though.

I'm afraid I've always been modestly sensitive to what the woman wants during sex. I never think of ravishing unless the women is open about it. To me penetrate if the woman wants it (good for me); don't if she doesn't. Some women like me and some wouldn't. When I was dating I wouldn't have sex with a women if she wasn't interested also ... whatever that means.

I'm not sure what you mean. If my mom was the man and my dad was the woman...oh, I see what you're doing. Well, I should say I associate feminine qualities as soft, warm, intimate, nurturing, and soothing. Men are hard, cold, sexually charged, competitive, and challenging. At least, people that don't know me well might believe I'm gay if I act with these female qualities. It can be embarrassing because I usually don't know what I'm doing until someone accuses me of coming onto them or something. Sometimes I get an urge to kiss people that I like or massage their body to show my contentment with them, but had to learn not to do this. I almost kissed my step-dad once; that was awkward for us both. I guess the way I talk and play with animals is feminine too because someone once asked me if I was gay after playing with their dog.

I see you as male (you say you are) but with a special personality. Society calls it feminine, but that's tradition for many, not true for all. A different personality needs to be recognized and accepted but many won't.

 

[Reluctantly]

...which appealed to her vs having some guy chase after her just to bang?

Yeah.

I get it. It's all relational, not a detacted thing. Guys typically just blow up, then are fine a minute or two later and can hang out and do whatever. It seems a shame though in that, despite your way of approaching it, you might also possess the sensitivity to work through it a way that girls should understand; if the guy they were dating was so masculine, they'd be complaining about how he wasn't sensitive and didn't care about her feelings.

I can blow up too, but if I do it's because I feel misunderstood because the other person is trying to define how I feel or what I meant by something or what my motivations are or trying to make me into a bad person or don't like that I don't feel the same as them about something or all. Do you mean guys blow up as in they lose their patience because they keep trying to compartmentalize the other person and fail, blow up? I haven't decided myself if that's just stupidity or a masculine trait. I think most consider it masculine.

　
I don't know. For me personally, I don't find overly masculine men to be that attractive -- you know, with the brow ridges and all the hair and broad jaw, etc. As far as faces go, Chris Evans is about as masculine as I go (and I think his chin is too big), and typically less than that -- although I don't like elfin/feminine looking males.

See that's the thing. I'm not attracted to what's masculine. Elfin/feminine males are sexy though, which makes me wonder if that makes me gay. I suppose it does a bit.

I guess if they look pretty like a woman, you wouldn't find it attractive. Makes sense I guess. But it really fucks up my sense of sexual identity.

So how do you actually identify?

Freak.

 

[Grove]

@Reluctantly

You’re not a freak; you don't possess any of the negative connotations associated with that word – at least not due to anything you've stated above.

 

[Reluctantly]

@Reluctantly. Let me just say at 1st I'm having a terrible time getting an intuitive feel for this thread, but I think I'm gaining. So I will reply to you here.
I understand woman's roles better than men's (I haven't been tested to check this out) but I attribute that to being around females more than males growing up ... except for when I was around males more than females during the juvenile period.

I can't quarrel with that if you think it sexy. One possibility there would be to switch underpants instead of you alone doing it. I'm sure she just didn't take to the non-traditional image of a male.

lol, you're doing the compartmentalizing thing. It can be cute. Yeah, I mean, okay, switch underpants instead of doing it alone. Well, alright, but that's not my concern, lol.

I'm afraid I've always been modestly sensitive to what the woman wants during sex. I never think of ravishing unless the women is open about it. To me penetrate if the woman wants it (good for me); don't if she doesn't. Some women like me and some wouldn't. When I was dating I wouldn't have sex with a women if she wasn't interested also ... whatever that means.

Well I hope you wouldn't have sex if she isn't interested, lol.

I see you as male (you say you are) but with a special personality. Society calls it feminine, but that's tradition for many, not true for all. A different personality needs to be recognized and accepted but many won't.

Sure, okay.
But I never said I was 'male'. I'm biologically male. But believe I mentally think and feel like a female. Ahhh.

Sorry, maybe this sounds condescending, but you didn't ask any questions or inquire about anything, so I'm not sure how to respond.

 

[Minuend]

You sound hawt, Reluctantly.

I tend to be attracted to men thought of as more "feminine" or so. At the same time, there hasn't been any male that I've ever thought of as a "manly man". All the men I've encountered has insecurities and weak points. They are able to have compassion for others. Nobody is that soulless beast that seems to be idealized by some.

Speaking of males, I don't really consider my partner a gender either. He too is the sum of his thoughts.

But I never said I was 'male'. I'm biologically male. But believe I mentally think and feel like a female.

I've noticed you as a member, I've never gotten the impression that you have a "feminine" way of behaving. But then again, since I tend not to think in those categories, that might mean nothing. I think if I should say I found your thinking feminine, you would have to be like those over-the-top crossdressers. But then still, feminine is a term constructed by the majority, meaningless.

Gender labels are ridiculous and a wall for growth.

~drunk~

 

[Jennywocky]

I can blow up too, but if I do it's because I feel misunderstood because the other person is trying to define how I feel or what I meant by something or what my motivations are or trying to make me into a bad person or don't like that I don't feel the same as them about something or all. Do you mean guys blow up as in they lose their patience because they keep trying to compartmentalize the other person and fail, blow up? I haven't decided myself if that's just stupidity or a masculine trait. I think most consider it masculine.

I don't know. I don't know why men do it. I was just thinking in general, it's very typical for men (if mad at other men) to just get pissed, duke it out (words or fists) for a minute, then they're cool and are friends again. With women, they typically don't like the "drama."

Meanwhile, with women, things can't as easily be dropped, and a lot of the conflict can happen under the surface or in catty ways. In fact, lots of times the women are judging the men as not liking them because men don't interact the same (in general) as the women, so the cues are all off.

That's essentially what I was referring to.

I'm pretty rational, but I still have a more traditional "female" streak as certain things will set me off and I really need to air them all out, and I'll find myself wrestling with emotions and feeling temptations to respond in certain ways.

See that's the thing. I'm not attracted to what's masculine. Elfin/feminine males are sexy though, which makes me wonder if that makes me gay. I suppose it does a bit.

I don't know. Gay tastes run the gamut. Some are into the elf look. Some are into bears. Some are into twinks. Some are just average looking guys. Etc.

Out of the three of those, I liked the first pic the best. But it might have been too femme for me. Jake Gyllenhall is a great example of a guy with some feminine features but not quite as feminine looking, who I find attractive.

ironically, I always play elves in MMOs and other games. I like that look for myself, but I'm not particularly attracted to it in a man.

I guess if they look pretty like a woman, you wouldn't find it attractive.

I guess that's it. I had one relationship that broke up because my partner identified more as trans, and it just wasn't working for me. I tried, but it didn't work.

Makes sense I guess. But it really fucks up my sense of sexual identity.

I'm sorry. I actually understand all that more than you might think. I hope you can find a "good place" eventually where you feel like you fit and have someone who accepts you just as you are.

Freak.

You wanna see my freak card? I've got one in my purse here somewhere.

*dumps purse all over the ground*

.... uh... don't look at all that....

 

[BigApplePi]

But I never said I was 'male'. I'm biologically male. But believe I mentally think and feel like a female. Ahhh.

Sorry, maybe this sounds condescending, but you didn't ask any questions or inquire about anything, so I'm not sure how to respond.

@Reluctantly. You are talking to someone who has plenty of questions. Someone said, "Be careful of what you ask for." I am not always careful with this.

You say you think and feel like a female. What makes you think so? You say you are biologically male. What makes you so sure of that? Do you have a better question I can ask? ... because I can, but I'd rather hear your answers first. I don't like to assume anything as that directs too much. Open questions are better.
_______________

Later: Here are a couple of questions you may not be able to answer, but maybe you'd like to venture a guess:
1. Do you think you might have an unusual amount of estrogen?
2. What do you think would happen to you if you were to receive injections of testosterone?

 

[Reluctantly]

Well...okay, I was really depressed about this when I figured out I relate to transsexuals. Didn't want to read this for awhile. I guess if I ever kill myself, this will be a good even fucking reason.

I guess that's it. I had one relationship that broke up because my partner identified more as trans, and it just wasn't working for me. I tried, but it didn't work.

It must be creepy, unless the other person is bisexual. That's what kind of freaks me out. A woman expects a man and gets someone who wants to also be a woman. Even a lesbian expects a woman and I'm still technically a man. And I don't really like the idea of getting a sex change because then I'd be committing to a gender; I may not feel like a man, but that also doesn't mean I want to pretend I have to be one or the other. Then I might as well be classified insane.

Maybe that's a good thing because it means the dysphoria isn't that bad. But I read up on transsexuals and all the stuff fits for secondary transsexuals, which is freaky.

The really weird thing is that I used to think I had some form of Aspergers because I didn't know how to explain why I feel so weird all the time, like I'm always having to adjust and can't relax. But the thing is, I'm really good at reading people; I'm so good at it, I don't like being around people because I kind of absorb them. People with AS aren't supposed to be able to read people naturally. I feel feminine naturally and I have always had to hide it. I like all those romance movies and stuff (Twilight), but I can't enjoy them around other people because I can't feel like I can be myself. I guess I never realized the time I spend in solitude is so that I can be myself; I thought it was an autistic or something, but I seriously doubt it now.

You say you think and feel like a female. What makes you think so?

I can relax around women. I can be myself around women. I feel awkward around men; I feel like I'm supposed to like being competitive, like torturing animals for sport, watching people beat the shit out of one another for sport, be aggressive and assertive about getting things, like porn (most porn is pretty gross) and titty bars, pretend I'd have sex with a hot girl just because she's hot (even though I couldn't enjoy being intimate with a stranger), like dominating women in a relationship, pretend I like rock, country, rap, hip-hop, etc. when the stuff I really like is either dreamy with an emotional element or just mood-setting and relaxing. Even the movies I like are sometimes romantic movies; but I have to watch them alone or people start to think I'm weird and it's tiring to have to be normal.

/tangent
I used to really fucking hate it when my father would take me fishing. I tried to like it, but I hated when he would buy those fucking shrimp alive and then skewer them on a hook, throw it in the water and watch them swim around so that a fish would eat them. Then I'd feel bad that the fish was hooked and I'd feel really bad when he couldn't get the hook out and he throws the fish back. And fishing sucks, what's the point? It's like spending the day working for nothing, because you throw the fish back. It would have made more sense if we at the damn fish, but no. Mother-fuckers. And I hate people that pay to go hunting on private land that puts animals in the land just so they can be shot and killed; the hunter isn't making a profit for killing the animal and it's just people killing for sport. That's senseless to me. It's another fucking thing I have to pretend doesn't bother me, but it does a lot. I have to pretend a lot with people just to get along. It's so annoying, even on internet forums.

You say you are biologically male. What makes you so sure of that? Do you have a better question I can ask? ... because I can, but I'd rather hear your answers first. I don't like to assume anything as that directs too much. Open questions are better.

Because I have two meatballs and a frank and no gina. lol

1. Do you think you might have an unusual amount of estrogen?

I don't know. My body type is ectomorph or in between ectomorph and mesomorph. I have a really fast metabolism, but I always did. Small waist (29) and have never found a belt that fit without having to adjust for extra holes (which is kind of embarrassing actually). I have body hair though...a full beard if I ever wanted one.

2. What do you think would happen to you if you were to receive injections of testosterone?

I took testosterone supplements once when I had the adrenal fatigue problem. I thought it might help since my doctor basically labeled me a hypochondriac (what an ignorant douche) and I didn't know what it was at the time. I remember it making me really horny and I seemed to have a more intense and lasting anger; that freaked me out, so I stopped. Does that answer your question?

 

[Reluctantly]

I've noticed you as a member, I've never gotten the impression that you have a "feminine" way of behaving. But then again, since I tend not to think in those categories, that might mean nothing. I think if I should say I found your thinking feminine, you would have to be like those over-the-top crossdressers. But then still, feminine is a term constructed by the majority, meaningless.

Gender labels are ridiculous and a wall for growth.

~drunk~

Oh right, well this is more or less a place for people to argue. I imagine gender doesn't have a role here. Besides, I actually find it a bit off-putting, but sometimes want to discuss things that no one else will IRL and figure why not; I can't say it usually goes well though. It does bug me when I realize people generally post to impose their point of view, instead of looking to hear and take in other points of view. But I don't know...whatever.

 

[Grayman]

The test is complete.

Below is the Kinsey scale, your result has been highlighted.

0 Exclusively heterosexual.
1 Predominantly heterosexual, only incidentally homosexual.
2 Predominantly heterosexual, but more than incidentally homosexual.
3 Equally heterosexual and homosexual.
4 Predominantly homosexual, but more than incidentally heterosexual.
5 Predominantly homosexual, only incidentally heterosexual.
6 Exclusively homosexual.
X Non-sexual.


F The test failed to match you to a Kinsey Type profile. Either you answered some questions wrong, or you are a very unusual person.

This test is not infallible, if you think that your result is wrong you are right and this test is wrong.




WTF - I just broke your test...

 

[Grayman]

Would anyone say I was delusional if I said I was 'agender' believing myself set apart from man and women. That my sexual orientation is undefined; a sexual desire unfocused until necessity gives me the desire to focus it.

It is okay if you do, I think everyone else is delusional and just doesnt realize they've been socially programmed to identify with a gender and orientation...or at least I used to think that in order identify why I am so different.... now I don't know.

 

[Jennywocky]

How does that play out with your spouse? Just curious... Typically gender identity goes beyond the internal and impacts other things.

 

[Grayman]

How does that play out with your spouse? Just curious... Typically gender identity goes beyond the internal and impacts other things.

I forget about her needs until she complains that other men are more interested in sex all the time and she feels I am not attracted to her. I then realized I've been neglecting my sexual needs as well and then put all my focus on pleasing and enjoying her. In the end she tells me Im so good at knowing her needs in bed and sometimes she cries but always wants to hold me with unexplainable affection. She spends the next day looking at me like I am infallible and the best husband anyone ever had until some time has passed I forget again and her irritation grows due to sexual frustration. 8 years married.

 

[Grayman]

She likes that I am uninterested in men things like football and cat calling/flirting and will always go shopping with her for clothes.

My lack of desire for people in a sexual way makes her feel safe.

 

[Jennywocky]

Well, that's all positive -- as long as you guys keep adjusting in the middle (when your asexual nature leads you to forget about that part of the relationship) by her reminding you what she needs, then you sound good to go.

 

[Grayman]

What would be normal for a male in my situation?

 

[Jennywocky]

What would be normal for a male in my situation?

Normal? I wouldn't really know. There can be a range across various types of interests.

Not all guys like catcalling and football, interests are across the map.

Men seem kind of indifferent to going clothing shopping with women. Some hate it, some don't mind it, the guy is probably more prone to enjoy it if he feels vested in the process (like, she buys clothes he happens to like).

Most guys probably have a higher sex drive. I would guess the average is sex every 2-3 days. But I don't know. SOme guys would like it a lot, other guys are focused on other things and need it less often. There's a range. And it can vary over time, depending on a lot of different factors (physical, relational, emotional, practical).

As long as you and your spouse are in sync and happy with each other (or are in communication enough to stay happy with each other by making adjustments), that's what matters.

 

[Grayman]

Normal? I wouldn't really know. There can be a range across various types of interests.

Not all guys like catcalling and football, interests are across the map.

Men seem kind of indifferent to going clothing shopping with women. Some hate it, some don't mind it, the guy is probably more prone to enjoy it if he feels vested in the process (like, she buys clothes he happens to like).

By catcalling I mean flirting. I have only ever done it when not doing it would make the woman feel unattractive. Also men always seem competitive but I see them as all participating in some grand illusion of being better somehow. Football just just seems like the most common way for them to excersize this need Where I live.

 

[Jennywocky]

By catcalling I mean flirting.

Oh. To me "cat calling" is, well, "cat calling" -- like when guys whistle at women publicly; it's a minor subset of flirting and might even fit into some other categories that are less appreciated.

Flirting is a very broad category, there are many many ways to flirt. BUt not everyone likes to flirt. Introverts of either gender can feel very uncomfortable flirting in the more direct ways.

Also men always seem competitive but I see them as all participating in some grand illusion of being better somehow. Football just just seems like the most common way for them to excersize this need Where I live.

Are you competitive in other ways? (Like mentally related ones?) In order to feel good about yourself and bolster your ego? Or do you just do what you find interesting?

 

[Grayman]

I already get more attention than I want on the intellectual side. People constantly ask me questions at work. I hate when my wife brags about me because then I have to figure out how to explain complex topics in 3 sentences or less and I am uncertain of their background knowledge or how intelligent they are in various areas that might be important in my explanations. When I dumb it down, ill look like an idiot an I'lI fail my wife and make her look like a liar or suffering from the illusion that I am intelligent which I in fact do often think is her delusion of me but that all just contradicts with my first statement.

When I do find someone on my level or above I am excited just to get their take on things but I am not aware of any competitiveness except toward myself and advancing my understanding which is mainly curiosity.

 

[Jennywocky]

I already get more attention than I want on the intellectual side. People constantly ask me questions at work. I hate when my wife brags about me because then I have to figure out how to explain complex topics in 3 sentences or less and I am uncertain of their background knowledge or how intelligent they are in various areas that might be important in my explanations. When I dumb it down, ill look like an idiot an I'lI fail my wife and make her look like a liar or suffering from the illusion that I am intelligent which I in fact do often think is her delusion of me but that all just contradicts with my first statement.

When I do find someone on my level or above I am excited just to get their take on things but I am not aware of any competitiveness except toward myself and advancing my understanding which is mainly curiosity.

Yeah, I wouldn't classify that necessarily as "competitiveness" expressed through the intellectual side of things. You're more interested in intelligence as either a way to learn things overall. Your intelligence might be tied into your self-esteem a bit (you don't want to look like an idiot), but then again no one of any gender likes to make mistakes in areas they care about or look foolish. *shrug*

Cliche male behavior is like two rams butting heads in the field, to directly prove dominance. This can be in a variety of ways, but there are some cliche ways men gravitate towards. Still, again... there's overflow in either direction.

 

[Lapis Lazuli]

/tangent
I used to really fucking hate it when my father would take me fishing. I tried to like it, but I hated when he would buy those fucking shrimp alive and then skewer them on a hook, throw it in the water and watch them swim around so that a fish would eat them. Then I'd feel bad that the fish was hooked and I'd feel really bad when he couldn't get the hook out and he throws the fish back. And fishing sucks, what's the point? It's like spending the day working for nothing, because you throw the fish back. It would have made more sense if we at the damn fish, but no. Mother-fuckers. And I hate people that pay to go hunting on private land that puts animals in the land just so they can be shot and killed; the hunter isn't making a profit for killing the animal and it's just people killing for sport. That's senseless to me. It's another fucking thing I have to pretend doesn't bother me, but it does a lot. I have to pretend a lot with people just to get along. It's so annoying, even on internet forums.

Even though this subject is problematic, and timely, your sense of integrity is impeccable. I know some absurd fisher-people myself who do with this subject, what your father does to fish. It is nice to meet you!

 

[A_Scanner_Darkly]

i didn't take the test. i just wanted to discuss briefly as i've had this on my mind a bit...

Gender Identity

i was born and identify as male ("cis male" i guess is the term), never truly felt any other way. i grew up primarily with two females, however, so that contributed to my natural effeminateness.

i am somewhat androgynous, though not significantly so.

Sexual Orientation

i have always been overwhelmingly attracted to female-ness. in recent years, i have begun to see, though, that it is much more the gender than the sex that i am attracted to. in other words, i don't really mind that much if she has a penis (i am attracted to medium-to-large breasts as a must) as long as everything else is there: the walk, the talk, the body shape, the makeup, et al. But i am flexible on most these things, depending on the personality...

i am actually somewhat androphobic, but i guess i could maybe be bisexual in a half-assed way with the right kind of man. not really though.

Implications/Discussion

most cis-females seem to be wired in such a way that they're attracted to qualities that i do not have and may never have. attractive cis-women are also far less likely to understand the fairly profound feelings of inadequacy and unattractiveness that many effeminate males such as myself struggle with. they are like "alpha males" in this regard, and hence why the two tend to end up together.

in contrast, trans-females would most likely be able to relate extremely well with the feeling of not being "right" or not being wanted. i'm not sure if the trend for trans-females is to lust after the same men cis-females tend to be attracted to, but emotional connection can certainly open the door to a relationship with someone who might not really fit your preconceived "mold" of who you think you want.

so possibly a trans-woman might be good for me, but honestly i really don't care at this point. i'm happy devoting myself to my studies and projects and friends and family for the time being. maybe one day...

 

[Tannhauser]

Let me check my pants...

 

[Sinny91]

Female. Straight.


Buuuttttt.


I had my first girl crush the other week. I could have died. I had no idea where or how the thoughts were coming from, and I couldn't shake em for about a week, lol.

In fairness to me, I've got great taste haha.

But I went out, got drunk, got laid (by a man), and the troublesome thoughts seem to have all cleared up by themselves.

Thank God for that. Its a bit late in life for a sexuality crisis haha.

Bloody vaginas, don't think I could touch one if you paid me to.

 

[Nebulous]

Woah there's a thread for this
I've been trying to write up a blog post on gender for like, ever

I'm not gonna read all the other stuff bc it's old and I'm lazy

MY VIEW on gender is that it's a sort of energy. (I mean that in a more spiritual than tangible way..? Personality sorta but idk idk)
For some people it's more stable, for others it's a more fluid thing. Others aren't aware of it or have a neutral feeling energy.

Important point:
Biological sex is not the same thing as gender.


Yeah yeah this seems sort of silly but it's a nice, concise guide:

I've been confused about my gender identity for a [relatively] long time.
I've know for years that I like girls, but it took me a long time to be comfortable calling myself a "lesbian". Even now I'd rather just say "I like girls."
I've recently concluded that I'd like to be the more masculine one in the relationship.
I'm definitely more attracted to feminine energy. Like I could see myself dating a guy as long they're more feminine than me energy wise.
My ideal girlfriend would be like an ENFJ who's vegan and into makeup but also likes vampires and goth stuff
I just described one of my friends from my old school I miss her so much she was actual perfection


Mmm I'm going to my blog

 

[Sinny91]

But vaginas, Neb, vaginas.

How are you going to navigate those things? Lol.