Are you considering what you "do" MBTI, or something else? Assuming the latter, what do you call this? Cognitive functions? Jungian personality theory?
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OK, it's on.
You are better off not matching up to an MBTI type description...
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Are you considering what you "do" MBTI, or something else? Assuming the latter, what do you call this? Cognitive functions? Jungian personality theory?
Adymus
Banned
Nope, it is a theory called Pod'lair, currently unheard of by anyone who is not a part of developing it, or has been to one of our weekly orientations. The first book is still being written and there will be seven more following it (among others that are not on the core theory, such as books on only a single personality type.)
It is a completely rebranded system that covers everything MBTI covered plus more, and more nuanced and accurately. So it has many similar concepts but with different names. It is imperative that we distance ourselves as far as possible from MBTI, it has already been tainted by stereotypes and flawed/inaccurate statistics.
I keep forgetting. I think this is the third time you've told me about Pod'lair.
It is based on Jung's work though, right? If not I'd be tempted to question its credibility (on the other hand, Jung wasn't necessarily always correct, and I don't know much about Pod'lair). What you tell us about cognitive functions and such is Pod'lair's take on it though, right?
It is based on Jung's work though, right? If not I'd be tempted to question its credibility (on the other hand, Jung wasn't necessarily always correct, and I don't know much about Pod'lair). What you tell us about cognitive functions and such is Pod'lair's take on it though, right?
Fukyo
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I am curious about this theory, although I suppose no information will be available to the general public until the book is released. From the little I read, at first glance it's definitely....different, and doesn't sound like a psychological theory at all. I don't know if that's a good or a bad thing. I guess I'll have to wait until this new weird terminology is explained. I have to admit, I'm interested in seeing how it'll stand up to claims of being irrefutable the most.
Adymus
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Adymus
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CoryJames
Banned
What a shame. I have only just become acquainted with MBTI and my type and you guys are already jumping ship and telling me that its not real or accurate. I was really enjoying the conversation on here too.
Adymus
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Real, yes. Accurate, not very.
BigApplePi
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CoryJames. Don't quite agree. MBTI is a model of reality just as what we have learned is called, "Pod'lair" is a model for reality. Both of them divide people up into temperament types. It's up to critics to decide how each is to be used. I say, let it play out.
Temperament in a human being can only be so precise. Take introversion vs. extroversion. How do we tell what we are? My internal judgment? What I am, or am comfortable with most of the time? What is "most of the time"? Is it my judgment only? What if I don't know myself well? Is it the persona I project? If so, who is evaluating? My parents? My friends? A test that grades my answers depending on my opinion of myself at the moment? Is one test better or different from another?
I say there is no definite answer to these questions that we can put in one package. The temperament we inherit modified by our experiences is difficult to objectify. Until it is, it's going to remain subjective or what I'll call, "fuzzy."
We might do a scientific experiment to test this. Take a few MBTI tests, have Pod'lair people make independent observations. Take one's own opinion. Then take statistics on the variations of the results.
CoryJames
Banned
Temperament is a very difficult cookie. I feel as though everyone projects different facades in different situations, unless they have a frontal lobe issue. I feel as though if a person TRULY wants to know what they are, as accurately as can be assessed or quantified of course, they will answer the questions honestly and this will be a much more accurate evaluation than another person could give, because they are not on the inside.
What makes you feel as though this new method will be more accurate?
BigApplePi
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To whom are you directing that question? I say use both of them. I still say temperament is "fuzzy." It's like asking, "Are you athletic?" An Olympic champion would have no difficulty in answering either by him/herself or by others. But weekend basketball players? How about once a month ping-pong players? How about couch potatoes?
One has to deal with BOTH the temperament definition AND the party to whom it is applied.
There are a few or more than a few terms in "Pod'lair" that are fuzzy by
their very nature. For example,
What is subjective? Objective?
What does dominant, energized, draining mean for a specific person?
How much do we distinguish observing vs judging aportionment to tell what we are?
While everyone must engage the external and internal world, how to we tell which dominates?
The extremes of these conditions can be judged. But I've heard there is such a thing as:
1. an ambivert (between introvert and extrovert)
2. ambidextrousness - between leftie and rightie.
3. bisexual - not hetero, not homo
4. and more
How do we decide what we are if our behavior and our "temperament" shows 60-40 or 55-45? If I'm 55 do I get assigned the traits of a 100-0? That's asking a lot I would think.
Adymus
Banned
Unfortunately it is not that simple, and being honest does not solve the problem.
There are four functions that we use on a conscious level, two of which will contradict the other two. Let's say you are an INFJ with really strong Ti, so much that you are perfectly confident in using it, maybe you are in some scientific field, who knows.
When asked a question about whether you prefer making decisions based on feelings or logic. There is a good chance they are going to say they favor logic, because an INFJ that is as well developed as that wouldn't let their Fe make the final call, they would run it through Ti first. It would be very easy to interpret this as favoring thinking over feeling, even if you are being completely honest.
You simply cannot rely on a person to know exactly how their cognitive function hierarchy is working. Even if you know your type it takes a lot more knowledge to fully understand how your apparatus actually functions.
It is not the honesty of the subject that is the problem, it is the test, period. If a person is well developed, they might just end up getting fifty percent on everything, but that doesn't mean they are some perfect being that has a preference for every cognitive function. Everyone still has a preference, but some of us are more developed than others, and are more confident in using more of their cognitive function. This extended use of cognitive functions will most certainly contradict your test results, because those results only account for your top two functions.
BigApplePi
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Scoring 50 percent on everything on a test shouldn't contradict how their cognitive function apparatus is working. One must be careful not to read into the test what is not there.
Dormouse
Mean can be funny
I've considered being an INFP, INFJ, ISFP, ESFP and INTP. Right now I've settled on ISTP.
And I think the INFJ thing only applies to this forum...
Lies, as we all know everyone is an INFJ.
CoryJames
Banned
Adymus
Using your logic, which as far as I can tell is sound, wouldn't this ring true for every test? What about the one you are working on makes it more accurate?
Pi
Thank you for clarifying.
To both.
I was always a bit confused as to why I felt different from other people. I could tell that I did not have the same desire for socialization that others did, even though it was forced upon me because I fit the stereotype of a guy who would be "popular" or "cool".
When I took the test and I read up about INTPs I felt as though it fit very well, and I noticed a lot of things that I could relate to almost exactly. Wouldn't honesty to oneself allow them to verify the accuracy of the test based on their assessment of the validity what their result entails?
I know that only 16 divisions is not even close to enough to accurately separate everyone into types that fit perfectly. But neither would 32 divisions. No matter how accurate and specific we can make the tests, a label will never fully encompass a person's qualities. The only way we could would be to make cerca 7 billion types, one describing each person.
A person should take the test, being as honest as possible, and if he feels as though it were accurate, accept what makes sense, and disregard what doesn't.
Using your logic, which as far as I can tell is sound, wouldn't this ring true for every test? What about the one you are working on makes it more accurate?
Pi
Thank you for clarifying.
To both.
I was always a bit confused as to why I felt different from other people. I could tell that I did not have the same desire for socialization that others did, even though it was forced upon me because I fit the stereotype of a guy who would be "popular" or "cool".
When I took the test and I read up about INTPs I felt as though it fit very well, and I noticed a lot of things that I could relate to almost exactly. Wouldn't honesty to oneself allow them to verify the accuracy of the test based on their assessment of the validity what their result entails?
I know that only 16 divisions is not even close to enough to accurately separate everyone into types that fit perfectly. But neither would 32 divisions. No matter how accurate and specific we can make the tests, a label will never fully encompass a person's qualities. The only way we could would be to make cerca 7 billion types, one describing each person.
A person should take the test, being as honest as possible, and if he feels as though it were accurate, accept what makes sense, and disregard what doesn't.
Adymus
Banned
What?
Of course a test result doesn't contradict your apparatus, your apparatus will contradict the test's design and it's respective description.
Please tell me you're joking.
You are so not an ISTP.
We avoid written tests altogether, the subject is analyzed by specialists.
First of all, what exactly is honesty, and why do you think everyone has it? You have to understand, you are not simply relying on people being honest, you are relying on them having a full grasp on what his happening in their psyche, correctly interpreting it, and then being honest about it. The fact that you have to rely so hard on all these outcomes falling into place is recipe for disaster.
It might have worked for you, but don't think that means it will work for everyone. The MBTI type descriptions is probably the most vague and confusing part of the system, especially because as I already said, if you are a well developed or abnormally developed personality type, you will not match up well with the description, even if you are being honest.
The ideal situation is not have an honest subject, but not having to rely on them for anything but being themselves (Which people cannot help but do anyhow.)
And when I say "Be themselves" I mean to simply be, because how they act is irrelevant.
CoryJames
Banned
Analyzed how? Will the specialist follow them around for an entire day to judge their _troversion?
I can understand how a persons cognitive processes may be able to be analyzed through a study of how they approach and handle stimuli and problems, but their feelings towards things or their _troversion? That would be hard to analyze.
And who decides who or what a specialist is in this field? Wouldn't the specialists "type" (using that word loosely) bias them?
BigApplePi
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What test of ANY sort can capture someone who deviates greatly from the norm? How well does the MBTI work if you are an "average" person?
Dormouse
Mean can be funny
Well, I agree that written tests won't generaly be accurate as people tend to project their ideal selves into their answers. Even if they are being honest, denial usually takes care of any dissonance between their actual and perceived personalities.
That said, I guess for people that deviate hugely from the norm you'd have to mesure preferences... Queries would have to be worded differently, essentially comparing two types of thought patterns and determining which they generally use?
Actually, this has got me thinking, you know how if somebody has an injury the rest of their body will compensate for it and eventually they'll sprain whatever ligament they were stressing to replace the actual deficiency? Well, it's probably just fanciful thinking but can you tire out a cognitive function? Or injure one such that it would require a recovery period?
Maybe ISTJ, then.
That said, I guess for people that deviate hugely from the norm you'd have to mesure preferences... Queries would have to be worded differently, essentially comparing two types of thought patterns and determining which they generally use?
Actually, this has got me thinking, you know how if somebody has an injury the rest of their body will compensate for it and eventually they'll sprain whatever ligament they were stressing to replace the actual deficiency? Well, it's probably just fanciful thinking but can you tire out a cognitive function? Or injure one such that it would require a recovery period?
Maybe ISTJ, then.
ProxyAmenRa
Here to bring back the love!
The development and preference of your cognitive functions (Jungian or whatever) are directly related your environment. Undeveloped individuals are the ones who refuse to alter their thinking patterns in response to stimuli.
A simple childhood example of cognitive development; environment altering behavior: Twins, an infj and an enfp that has adhd. The enfp will implicitly and explicitly demand/require the attention of the parents. This creates a disproportion of attention between the two children. The infj will not receive the type of interaction with the parents that an infj desires. Despair sets in for the infj and the infj could potentially change its behavior in various ways to mitigate. One could be the development of a delinquent infj (they are quite common) or striving for attention by developing a differentiation; possibly achieving high grades at school. This would cause the prioritizing of the Ni, Ti, Se functions. Hence, this infj will appear similar to an intp. A common occurrence for infjs who don't have their fe function encouraged. Not an example of a well developed individual.
NT parents will most likely encourage the use of thinking functions over feeling functions.
Undeveloped individuals normally spawn out of environments were personal growth is not encourages. Much like how society is currently structured. Detrimental rhetoric is constantly propagated through media. Class struggle and the continual cycle of diminishing affluence creates environments of stress which manifests through abhorrent displacement behavior. Hence, people cling to pseudo identities such as unrelenting belief or patriotism to organizations and systems that only serve to cast a shadow over their eyes and prevents them from realizing their full potential.
Personality typing maybe an interesting and efficient way to organize society and labor but it only serves as a minor step in self-discovery and development.
---
An interesting way to determine who you are is to spend vast quantities of time alone without the infecting influence of other people. After many years having a large number of being exposed to a large number of friends and my close friend was a sociopath I decided to spend a year alone. It was eye opening.
---
I am in agreement with the premise of this thread.
A simple childhood example of cognitive development; environment altering behavior: Twins, an infj and an enfp that has adhd. The enfp will implicitly and explicitly demand/require the attention of the parents. This creates a disproportion of attention between the two children. The infj will not receive the type of interaction with the parents that an infj desires. Despair sets in for the infj and the infj could potentially change its behavior in various ways to mitigate. One could be the development of a delinquent infj (they are quite common) or striving for attention by developing a differentiation; possibly achieving high grades at school. This would cause the prioritizing of the Ni, Ti, Se functions. Hence, this infj will appear similar to an intp. A common occurrence for infjs who don't have their fe function encouraged. Not an example of a well developed individual.
NT parents will most likely encourage the use of thinking functions over feeling functions.
Undeveloped individuals normally spawn out of environments were personal growth is not encourages. Much like how society is currently structured. Detrimental rhetoric is constantly propagated through media. Class struggle and the continual cycle of diminishing affluence creates environments of stress which manifests through abhorrent displacement behavior. Hence, people cling to pseudo identities such as unrelenting belief or patriotism to organizations and systems that only serve to cast a shadow over their eyes and prevents them from realizing their full potential.
Personality typing maybe an interesting and efficient way to organize society and labor but it only serves as a minor step in self-discovery and development.
---
An interesting way to determine who you are is to spend vast quantities of time alone without the infecting influence of other people. After many years having a large number of being exposed to a large number of friends and my close friend was a sociopath I decided to spend a year alone. It was eye opening.
---
I am in agreement with the premise of this thread.
Wish
Wellington
I think it's funny that an 'undeveloped' INFJ is often mistaken for an INTP. What does that make us? 
ProxyAmenRa
Here to bring back the love!
I think it's funny that an 'undeveloped' INFJ is often mistaken for an INTP. What does that make us?
Depends what functions are underdeveloped. Nearly in all circumstances Ti is underdeveloped which would not result in an intp appearance. A undeveloped infj in respects to Fe that appears like an intp would be extremely rare. However, that is my subjection.
Fukyo
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I'm an underdeveloped INFJ.
I should leave this forum and join the underdeveloped INFJ forum
http://forums.infjs.com
Adymus
Banned
They are actually not that rare at all.
I think this forum's past record of members should be at least some proof of this.
Neglecting an auxiliary function, and developing the tertiary is actually not too uncommon at all, it happens to all types.
Adymus
Banned
Really, Dormouse?
Is ISTJ really the most logical of possibilities?
Considering the fact that you are throwing an Ne frenzy of not being able to decide what type you think you are, does an Si dominant really make that much sense?
Dormouse
Mean can be funny
Well, I'm really quite OCD and boring in reality. And frankly, far too much of my time is spent contemplating past things. So Si sounds about right. The only thing that wouldn't match up is my absolute lack of any factual memory.
I have an INFJ friend who could maybe pass as an INTP, or at least an INFP. Depending on how well you know her.
I have an INFJ friend who could maybe pass as an INTP, or at least an INFP. Depending on how well you know her.
She's messing with you.
Dormouse
Mean can be funny
I resent that allegation. Also, it's untrue.
It isn't.
ProxyAmenRa
Here to bring back the love!
Anecdotally that maybe the case. However, this is an intp forum. This place attracts people that are intp or appear to be intp. There would be a disproportion of mistyped infjs here because of their need to feel a part of something or connect to others a.k.a connect to other like minded individuals.
Many environments would discourage the use of fe but that may not necessarily promote the use of ti. There is always a possibility of using fe in a alternative way and thus we have the infj sociopath.
I think we need empirical data.
Adymus
Banned
Out of all of the times you have talked to me, the vast majority have been questions of Ne and Ti, you haven't tried to direct me with your worldview a single time. Ne flows off of you far too easily, plus you are almost obviously a Ti user.
Trust me Dory (Can I call you Dory?), if you were an ISTJ, we'd all know.
Dormouse
Mean can be funny
I shall call him Squishy and he shall be mine and he shall be my Squishy.
Ahem.
Take that as a yes, it's actually a pretty appropriate cognomen...
So can I call you Addy? Or Adder?
So can I call you Addy? Or Adder?
So, Ti and Ne narrows down my options to ESFJ, ISFJ, INTP and ENTP?
That is assuming you are right, 'cause seriously, I come off a lotttt different on here than I do in reality.
So I'm tending to lean towards ISFJ, given my current mood, although I have a probable ISFJ friend whom I'm nothing like.
Actually, the people I relate to the most are Fi-doms. So maybe ISFP or something, though that would basically disregard everything you've just said. Don't be insulted?
Adymus
Banned
I like Addy, not so much adder, that doesn't roll off the tongue well.
Relating to Fi doms is something to be expected, because they also have a dominant compass function, so we both approach things in a similar reflective sort of lifestyle. Doesn't make you one of them though.
Curious, why are you so adamant about not being an INTP?
(Hell, why are like half the INTPs on this forum adamant about not being INTP...)
Dormouse
Mean can be funny
Alright, though adders are cool, being venomous and whatnot.
Hmm, well I neither act nor feel like an INTP. Thinking is not something I am good at, I have no memory for facts whatsoever, my imagination is shot (read: terribly inconsistent) and if I actually have Fe, it rarely shows itself. I honestly do not see much in common with the people frequenting this forum, though I do admire many of them.
Actually, upon examination the two functions I recognize the most in myself would be Se (sort of, in an extremely dysfunctional form) and Fi.
Also, in principle I would most likely end up rebelling against any type I previously ascribed to myself. I dislike being cornered by past interpretations of my personality, so the most obvious solution appears to be to reject them/remain indecisive.
But seriously, I'm not INTP. Maybe INFJ, or something. I see alot of that in my younger self.
So I've come to the conclusion I just decided I was INTP and started acting that way, or at least attempting to, and now I've gotten sick of it.
Hmm, well I neither act nor feel like an INTP. Thinking is not something I am good at, I have no memory for facts whatsoever, my imagination is shot (read: terribly inconsistent) and if I actually have Fe, it rarely shows itself. I honestly do not see much in common with the people frequenting this forum, though I do admire many of them.
Actually, upon examination the two functions I recognize the most in myself would be Se (sort of, in an extremely dysfunctional form) and Fi.
Also, in principle I would most likely end up rebelling against any type I previously ascribed to myself. I dislike being cornered by past interpretations of my personality, so the most obvious solution appears to be to reject them/remain indecisive.
But seriously, I'm not INTP. Maybe INFJ, or something. I see alot of that in my younger self.
So I've come to the conclusion I just decided I was INTP and started acting that way, or at least attempting to, and now I've gotten sick of it.
ProxyAmenRa
Here to bring back the love!
Don't select arbitrary parameters and embody them. Just let the chips fall where they may.
I don't think I'm INTP either. Or I didn't...dunno, I'm just more aware of my surroundings...I'll look at people, remember the clothing they wore a week ago, how many times they've worn it etc. Isn't that Se or Te? I have no clue. I just remember details outside of my mind...I think I have Ti but I don't get lost in dreamworld too often...I also have a temper...and my feelings do get hurt often :S
Adymus
Banned
It's Si
cheese
Prolific Member
Doesn't Dormouse have a youtube video? Adymus could work his pod magic on that.
Anthile
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At first I thought I was INTP but soon I recognized I'm nothing like other INTPs. Somebody said then I kinda act like an INFJ. This made sense at first but then I figured I'm nothing like other INFJs either. Now I have settled with INTJ, simply because it makes the most sense.
Adymus
Banned
Dood, way ahead of you.
That's why I already know she is an INTP, the fact that she also acts like an INTP even in text is just more proof to stack on.
Dormouse
Mean can be funny
Those videos were of my evil twin reading (absolutely butchering, actually) a script I had prepared for her.
And anyways, I deleted them long ago. Your memory clearly fails you.
Plus, I totally don't type like an INTP.
*mutters angrily*
Edit: Upon that note, I will cease my MBTI angst and let you all go your merry ways, prevailing in silent dissension of your conjectures.
My apologies for polluting this thread with irrelevant ranting.
And anyways, I deleted them long ago. Your memory clearly fails you.
Plus, I totally don't type like an INTP.
*mutters angrily*Edit: Upon that note, I will cease my MBTI angst and let you all go your merry ways, prevailing in silent dissension of your conjectures.
My apologies for polluting this thread with irrelevant ranting.
Adymus
Banned
Plus, I totally don't type like an INTP.
You just did.
Dormouse
Mean can be funny
I would soooo be denying that now if I hadn't said I was stoping.
Instead, I shall politely ask how one writes in an INTP manner, that I can cease doing it.
Instead, I shall politely ask how one writes in an INTP manner, that I can cease doing it.
Adymus
Banned
For one, it's your choice of wording... It's distinctly Ti. You'd have to have a lot of confidence in your Ti to be able to wield that vocabulary the way you are doing. Essentially, you complicate your language purposely and proudly. Like a True Ti Dom... Like Boss.
EDIT: Although, this is something INFJs with really advanced development might do too. But you are not fighting me, so you are definitely not an INFJ.
EDIT: Although, this is something INFJs with really advanced development might do too. But you are not fighting me, so you are definitely not an INFJ.
cheese
Prolific Member
Yeah, I was kinda wondering why you were going on about text when you're fairly active on the youtube thread and couldn't have missed hers.
Dormouse, I watched The Frood's recently, and I noticed he had similar mannerisms and ways of expressing himself to you.
There seem to be quite a few variations in expression of INTPness.
From the thread and roughly organised into hazily-defined categories ('heavy' is relative to the other posters):
Ti-heavy:
Chill But Deep (, Man):
Cavallier, DoubleThink, Nyx
Ti-Si-heavy:
Earnest/Sweet:
Ermine, Puffy
A subset of the above is the
E/S Largely Inaccessible:
Auburn (or Azarath)
Ne heavy:
Zany Stoner:
IrishPenguin, shoeless on occasion
Slightly Abrupt, Quiet and Sneaky-Looking:
Dormouse, The Frood, Adymus on occasion
A subset of the above is the
Quietly Insane/Possibly Murderous:
Dormouse, The Frood (a little), Adymus, Auburn
Related to the above is the
Loudly, Proudly Murderous:
Melkor would be in this category, I suspect.
Fe heavy:
Creepily Normal:
Alice?, Doden, Decaf
From what I've seen, TiNeSiFe expresses itself with different behaviour and mannerisms but the underlying cognitive processes (and I mean this in the sense unrelated to typology) seem similar.