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When The Seagulls Cry

Oblivious

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Oblivious

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I just noticed that lambda-delta is greek for 34 (Thirty-four or Three-Four), which corresponds to Mi-yo (Three Four) in Japanese. Which makes a whole lot of sense.

Been watching the anime and I have to say, Higurashi was much easier to solve than this. I have a feeling the writers are either deliberately controlling the clues or hiding them very well.

Anyways, I will probably not instinctively dismiss the existence of magic in Umineko, with what happened in Higurashi. Though I will suspect that their roles will be the same; in that they will not directly affect story events, but serve as a non-deus ex machina method of advancing or accentuating certain parts of the plot. (K1 becoming aware of past cycles notwithstanding.)

Just saying that the way the magic-device is used in this story is not used to explain away plot holes, but to taunt the audience into forming wild theories to explain away the magic to solve the real mystery. Its very interesting and refreshing that such a device is used to provoke thought rather then end it.
Perhaps its just a personal preference, but I suspect that the magic in this series is just a tasty mystery to solve by conventional logic, which will be unraveled by the story’s end. I hope the anime does this mystery justice.
 

Anthile

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Alright, now after 14 episodes of Umineko I think it is crucial to know Higurashi to understand WTF is going on.
 

Anthile

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So, after watching the newest episode I can say: this episode was awesome again. Actually just because of two scenes: Battler bitchslaps Beatrice and... well... the freaking cake:



I read that in the sound novel the torture scene was even longer and that with the spider and the butterfly actually happened. :slashnew:

Stream link with English sub: http://www.epdrama.com/umineko-no-naku-koro-ni/umineko-no-naku-koro-ni-episode-15/
 

Fukyo

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Yay,Eva-Beatrice has been introduced,and if the opening is to be believed soon will be Siestas and Ange Ushiromiya as well. \o/


Buttler is annoying as usual, but another character has actually managed to outdo his obnoxiousness. :eek:

Also:




:smiley_emoticons_mr
 

Oblivious

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I would just like to say that I appreciate the two of you watching this show and becoming my willing pawns in the penetration of this forum of japanese subculture. :borg:

I will start a thread on Bakemonogatari soon.

Alright, now after 14 episodes of Umineko I think it is crucial to know Higurashi to understand WTF is going on.

This is not required, as far as I am able to tell.

In Umineko either I am not perceptive enough or all the pieces required to solve the puzzle are not presented yet. In Higurashi, each of the 4 arcs of the first season were solvable before the last episode of each arc, but this is not the case for Umineko at least for me.

In Higurashi the 'click' moments were plenty, but not for Umineko. I hope its not because I've become more blunt. Though if you wanted me to guess, the murderer pre Eva-Beatrice is probably Genji, the head butler. In episode 14, the murderer accidentally kills himself and a new murderer takes his place, Eva. The six people killed in the first twilight therefore had to contain the murderer.

Or we are simply led on a gigantic wild goose chase again. This would be a brilliant piece of bait... but then nothing ventured nothing gained yes?
 

Oblivious

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About time. Those gg suckers are dragging their feet. :airplane:
 

Oblivious

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Thought Id bring the discussion here.

[18:07] <ob> any idea who the murderer is yet
[18:07] <ob> i tihnk its genji
[18:07] <ob> but now i think its going to be evas
[18:07] <ob> eva*
[18:08] <Anthile> eva
[18:08] <ob> you mean was she the murderer throught?
[18:08] <ob> throughout*
[18:08] <Anthile> no
[18:09] <Anthile> but hideyoshi is giving her a false abili
[18:09] <Anthile> alibi*
[18:09] <ob> i feel exactly so
[18:09] <ob> i wonder how i should properly explain this sort of presentation
[18:10] <ob> the schodinger example given by virgilia seems to work
[18:10] <ob> but its a little complicated imo
[18:10] <Anthile> yeah
[18:10] <ob> it is of course useful
[18:11] <ob> because it allows for mundane alibis as well as fantasy scenarios
[18:11] <ob> anyway it seems quite obvious that eva is now the murderer
[18:11] <ob> perhaps too obvious?
[18:11] <Anthile> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raven_paradox#The_paradox
[18:11] <ob> it could even be rosa
[18:12] <ob> (rosa was pretty awesome shooting down goatmen btw)
[18:12] <Anthile> yeah
[18:12] <Anthile> but the cake is a lie
[18:12] <Anthile> :D
[18:12] <ob> hah
[18:12] <ob> so was the jello
[18:14] <ob> btw
[18:14] <ob> lets think a little about how the murders in 15 were done
[18:14] * dala has quit IRC (Ping timeout)
[18:15] <ob> on one hand, rosa seems to have been overpowered and then impaled on the fencing
[18:15] <ob> and maria was strangled
[18:15] <Anthile> must have been a man I think
[18:15] <ob> i was thinking along the same lines
[18:15] * dala has joined #intpforum.com
[18:16] <Anthile> because it would need a remarkable amount of physical strength to impale someone on a fence
[18:16] <ob> what if she tripped?
[18:16] <Anthile> so it probably weren't the older people either
[18:16] <ob> and the force of the fall impaled her
[18:16] <Anthile> hmm, possible
[18:17] <ob> i think strangling a kid is something a woman could ahve done too
[18:17] <Anthile> but considering that the corpses are so near to each other it seems likely that someone killed both
[18:17] <ob> yes
[18:17] <ob> probably rosa first
[18:17] <ob> then maria
[18:17] <Anthile> as a witness, yes
[18:18] <ob> strangulation would take a bit of time anyway
[18:18] <Anthile> hm, but to kill somene with a fence you would knock that person out before it, right?
[18:19] <ob> or make it so that they tripped
[18:19] <ob> btw
[18:19] <ob> rosa dying would be quite advantageous to eva
[18:19] <ob> and the kick is that only eva knows of that advantage
[18:20] <ob> remember what she said to battler about the advatages of killing?
[18:20] <Anthile> no
[18:20] <Anthile> no sharing?
[18:20] <ob> she said it in the first arc
[18:20] <ob> she said something to the effect that she would not kill someone in a way that would cast suspicion on her
[18:20] <Anthile> oh, right
[18:21] <ob> there would be no suspicion on her in this case
[18:21] <ob> but the advantage is huge
[18:21] <ob> motive is quite clearly established
[18:21] <ob> as for oppurtunity
[18:21] <ob> hideyoshi was with eva
[18:21] <ob> hideyoshi was aware of rosa going out with maria
[18:22] <ob> he could have told eva
[18:22] <Anthile> indeed
[18:22] <ob> however
[18:22] <ob> there is no direct link between eva and the murder weapons
[18:22] <ob> except for the fact that it is possible for a woman to do the deed
[18:22] <ob> kinda possible anyway
[18:23] <Anthile> in fact, impaling someone on a fence is a very impractical method to kill someone - it takes too much time and energy
[18:24] <ob> well i think using a gun would cast too much suspicion on herself
[18:24] <ob> of a knife
[18:24] <ob> or*
[18:24] <Anthile> so the only reason to do this is a.) letting it look like an accident b.) it was out of anger
[18:25] <Anthile> what about Rosa killing Maria?
[18:25] <ob> b is more likely
[18:25] <ob> rosa the murderer?
[18:25] <Anthile> Rosa strangled Maria and someone else witnessed it and called her out
[18:25] <ob> she's dead now so there would have to be a third murderer
[18:26] <Anthile> we have seen Rosa before as being abusive
[18:26] <ob> so far her relationship with her daughter has been improving
[18:26] <ob> even at her height i doubt she'd really strangle her
[18:26] <ob> she did not hit her in 15
[18:26] <Anthile> hmm
[18:27] <ob> although she was clearly pissed
[18:27] <Anthile> what about Maria killing Rosa through pushing her on the fence?
[18:27] <ob> if maria could have done it, so could eva
[18:27] <Anthile> probably not intentionally
[18:28] <Anthile> right
[18:28] <ob> if she lost her balance and fell onto the spike its possible
[18:29] <Anthile> I bet that fence would fall though all safety tests
[18:29] <ob> we had a fence as a murder weapon in pheonix wright before
[18:29] <Anthile> I never played that
[18:29] <ob> in PW the fence was bent forward
[18:30] <ob> PW is basically an interactive murder mystery
[18:30] <ob> it even has magic :O
[18:30] <ob> anyway enough about that
[18:30] <ob> i was going to talk about the mystery style in higurashi and umineko
[18:31] <ob> where should i begin
[18:31] <ob> its harder to pin down the method in umineko than it is in higurashi
[18:31] <ob> in umineko the victims are always changing
[18:31] <ob> at least in order
[18:32] <ob> in higurashi its the same victims
[18:32] <ob> over and over again
[18:32] <ob> its just that people take turns killing them
[18:32] <Anthile> well, higurashi has a rather small cast
[18:32] <ob> but the big bad at the end is always the same
[18:33] <ob> its real fun tracking it down
[18:33] <Anthile> while umineko has billions of people running around
[18:33] <ob> 18
[18:33] <ob> let me try and count higurashi
[18:35] <ob> keiichi, shion, mion, rena, satoko, satoshi, rika, irie, takano, tomitake, oiishi
[18:35] <ob> thats 11
[18:35] <ob> im sure there's more im missing
[18:35] <ob> oh
[18:36] <ob> anyway its these people who play a major role in the murders
[18:36] <ob> there are a few victims i did not mention, but they are only there to die i guess
[18:37] <Anthile> well, in higurashi the sonozaki clan was supposed to be the real bad but it turned out they are rather okay people
[18:38] <Anthile> I think they try to pull something similar with Eva
[18:38] <ob> yeah the links to eva are too obvious
[18:39] <Anthile> Like Beato is rather playful but doesn't mind violence while Eva comes just over as psychopathic
[18:40] <ob> evabeatrice is psychopathic
[18:41] <Anthile> yeah
[18:41] <ob> a main message of higurashi and umineko is i think that under the right circumstances, every one of us can become monsters that make hitler look like elmer fuud
[18:41] <ob> bernkastel said that eva becoming the new witch was a 'coincidence'
[18:41] <ob> i think she's right
[18:41] <ob> oh
[18:41] <Anthile> hmm
[18:42] <ob> and lambdadelta showing favour for eva
[18:42] <ob> its because they used to share voice actors
[18:42] <ob> irl
[18:42] <Anthile> oh
[18:42] * dala has quit IRC (Broken pipe)
[18:42] <ob> but any more than that will be spoiler
[18:42] <ob> go watch higurashi
[18:42] <ob> it is awesome
[18:43] <Anthile> I did
[18:43] <ob> both seasons?
[18:43] <Anthile> yes, sir
[18:43] <ob> good man
[18:43] <ob> anyway it should be obvious
[18:43] <ob> miyo = lambdadelta
[18:43] <ob> miyo and eva share voice actors
[18:44] * dala has joined #intpforum.com
[18:44] <ob> it would not be surprising if their characters share certain traits
[18:44] <ob> one of them being borderline schizoid
[18:44] <Anthile> I knew it just by looking at it
[18:44] <ob> did you look up the meaning of lambdadelta?
[18:44] <Anthile> no
[18:45] <ob> what does miyo stand for?
[18:45] <Anthile> 34?
[18:45] <ob> yes
[18:45] <ob> lamdadelta happens to be greek for the number thirty four
[18:45] <Anthile> http://img514.imageshack.us/i/motivator206dc9da716ba7.jpg/ :D
[18:46] <ob> hawt
[18:47] <ob> i've always found miyo hawt
[18:47] <Anthile> she always looked like she was somking weed
[18:47] <Anthile> smoking
[18:47] <ob> the droppy eyes right
[18:47] <Anthile> yeah and the speech
[18:48] <Anthile> and Bernkastel is a region in Germany that is famous for its wine btw
[18:49] <ob> rika drinks?
[18:49] <Anthile> yeah
[18:49] <ob> isnt she like underaged?
[18:50] <Anthile> only her body
[18:51] <Anthile> http://www.zelas.co.uk/media/catalo...9eda06f020e43594a9c230972d/t/h/thanisch_1.jpg
[18:53] <ob> yea her name sounded german to me
[18:53] <ob> only i found it hard to link to her
[18:54] <Anthile> "The guy who originally did the classification of the seven demons with the seven sins was Peter Binsfeld, a German auxiliary bishop and witch hunter. He was born in the 16th century in the small town of Binsfeld, in the district of Bernkastel-Wittlich. He wrote a book, which was very famous at his time, Hexentraktat, in which he argues that witches do exist and explains how to find, interrogate and execute them."
[18:54] <Anthile> that's what the trivia section of tv tropes tells us
[19:00] <Anthile> but anyway
[19:00] <Anthile> can we say that there are any rules for Umineko?
[19:00] <ob> i would say the rules are whatever said in red
[19:01] <Anthile> In Higurashi it's when Rika is dead=game over
[19:02] <ob> would not be so sure about that
[19:03] <ob> the premise of umineko is very much based on that agatha christie novel 'And then there were none'
[19:03] <ob> while higurashi seems somewhat based on parasite eve
[19:03] <Anthile> hmm
[19:04] <Anthile> why is it in the 80's anyway
[19:04] <Anthile> to avoid modern technology?
 

Fukyo

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[18:43] <ob> anyway it should be obvious
[18:43] <ob> miyo = lambdadelta


Hm,they are not literally the same person though.Miyo is just Lambdadelta's representative in the game of Hinamizawa,like a game piece or the character you play in a RPG.All the references in Higurashi about the characters fighting Fate all the time,Rika especially.(and considering that it is said that Bernkastel and Lambdadelta are rivals because Bern defeated her in a game,and Lambdadelta is the witch of absolutes and certainty).Anyway the umineko wikia confirmed it for me that LD is the one who set up the Hinamizawa.

*major spoiler warning,because I have to look them up to confirm or deny my theories. :cat:
 

Jeremymia

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Hello all.

I watched the first... 14 episodes, I think, before I was told that the visual novel that the anime was based on was much better. I've never "played" a visual novel before (play is a funny word to use, because there's no choice or interaction, you're just reading), but I have to say that the VN is ridiculously amazing. From the anime, I didn't really have a good feel for the characters (had no idea who that white haired chick was), and you really aren't given enough clues.

One of the best things about the VN that INTPs like us can enjoy is how ridiculously philosophical the game is. I've called it "logic porn" before -- after every little event, the characters, or sometimes just Battler, sits there and analyzes and analyzes and analyzes. These are some of the best parts of the game. And the game's analysis of "chessboard thinking" as a useful tool in a game like chess that becomes increasingly useless when applied to people was a great discussion that was left totally out of the anime.

I kind of regret that I saw so far into the anime before I started the VN, and there's no way I'm going to watch any more of the anime before I get past that point in the VN. The anime, the medium that it is, makes some parts more awesome. But you're getting a very shallow part of the story.

I wanted to mention one thing that people who watch the anime haven't seen. The witches talk about "compatability".

I'm going to mention some Higurashi spoilers here, so proceed at your own risk.

Rika (Berkanstel) beat Miyo (Lambdadelta) in Higurashi. This is because Lamdadelta is a very efficient player -- she acts as intelligently as possible to win the game as easily as possible, not taking moves when it doesn't help her. She's the kind of person who always takes the surest path to victory, and it's why the game was so stacked against Berkanstel.

Beatrice, on the other hand, isn't anything like that. She does things she doesn't have to just because she enjoys it. Takes pieces when it's not necessary. Berkanstel describes this as a huge weakness. But, interestingly enough, it's an incredible defense against chessboard thinking. Chessboard thinking only works when you assume your opponent is making the best move for him. Battler would have perhaps made a much better opponent against Lambdadelta, since lamdadelta always acts in her own best interest.

It also means that us, as the audience, are going to have a lot of trouble figuring out what's going on.
 

Oblivious

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What I would absolutely love to hear Battler consider is the state of his current existence as an observer. I think before he goes about proving whether or not witches exist it would be more prudent to consider whether *he* even exists.

Of course unless we are simply using that dimension as a tool with which to comment upon the scenarios and logically fiat an explanation to its existence. Just noting that it's just a quite a philosophical contrast to see through fantasy illusions in the 'Game' and leave the observation deck untouched by logical inquiry. Or maybe that's the whole idea?
 

Jeremymia

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If you're not careful, you'll destroy the entire point of the show. We've been told, as the audience, that Battler doesn't believe what he's seeing. We really no proof that any of it is an illusion. But if we accept that the magic is just an illusion, then why stop there? Why aren't any of the closed rooms an illusion? The deaths themselves? We could just as logically conclude that the family conference goes off without an issue while Battler imagines murder all around him. Hell, why isn't it all just a dream? A story? A random thought by an unrelated person as he does his laundry?

There's no real reason that we have to accept that "Whether or not this is magic is the question, but the rest of it is exactly as we see it." It's just the premise of the show, and very little good comes of doubting a fictional premise.

As for that room itself, though, it may very well represent something. I feel that Witch-Kumasawa's explanation about "Things can be true and not true at the same time" is meant to say "Beatrice does exist, but not as a physical being. She represents something." This rule may also apply to the room.
 

Oblivious

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Oh, and welcome to the forum. Go introduce yourself will ya. :elephant:

Well we can sort of explain the observation room by saying its a parallel universe made up of the unconscious minds of Battler, Beatrice, Virgillia and the rest. They already brought up quantum uncertainty through Schroedinger stating that direct observation is the only truth. From there we can decide really what the real truth really is, no matter how much we want to doubt.

The big question is whose direct observation? Everyone seems to see fantasy illusions and interact with them. So whose observation can we trust? Battler?
 

Anthile

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Found that today and laughed:

 
Last edited:

Anthile

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So I started playing the Umineko visual novel today...


...did I mention that I identify a lot with Battler? Because I do.
 

Anthile

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...Battler actually read Higurashi?! That just... just... what the hell! That just raises so many questions! I know that in the Umineko anime we see the Higurashi anime running on the TV in the background but I thought that was just some visual gag, kinda like Bender appearing in the Simpsons without interfering with the story. But this just blows my mind.
:confused:
 

Anthile

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So, I just finished the first episode of the VN and I'm quite surprised how long it was. However, even more surprising was that Beatrice didn't even appear once in person.
As a result of this, I apparently unlocked something that is called "Tea Party". I have no idea what it does but it's quite bizarre when my own threads come back at me.

 

Dormouse

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So, I haven't actually read any of the posts on this thread for fear of spoilers, but I figured I'd just say that I've been meaning to watch this for a while and now have an uninterrupted evening of self-pity and illness. Marathon time!

Two episodes in:

You BASTARDS, I can't believe you killed
Shannon. That was tragic.

Kanon! D:

The butler. He was my main suspect... Unless, of course, that's a fake body.

^ I guess I'll update that as the night progresses.

My current theory is that the perpetrator is Battler in a blonde wig and makeup.

Edit 1: If this follows the general plot of 'And then there were None', the killer is after them all for retribution and will end the story with suicide. George is so unlucky he seems suspicious, but instead I accuse the DOCTOR! >:O

Edit 2: In typical form, they're all hallucinating. Right?

Edit 3: GAH IT'S HIGURASHI ALL OVER AGAIN... though hopefully less of a mindfuck. Why didn't I expect this?

Edit 4: Kanon hacks life. Okay, I'm done here until something starts making sense.
 

Anthile

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That's because Higurashi and Umineko are interconnected and characters from Higurashi (sort of) appear again in Umineko! And if you're confused now, the later stuff will make your head explode...
 

Oblivious

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That's because Higurashi and Umineko are interconnected and characters from Higurashi (sort of) appear again in Umineko! And if you're confused now, the later stuff will make your head explode...

They really appear anywhere they please.



If you want to find the murderer: Look for the closed rooms.
 
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