[18:07] <ob> any idea who the murderer is yet
[18:07] <ob> i tihnk its genji
[18:07] <ob> but now i think its going to be evas
[18:07] <ob> eva*
[18:08] <Anthile> eva
[18:08] <ob> you mean was she the murderer throught?
[18:08] <ob> throughout*
[18:08] <Anthile> no
[18:09] <Anthile> but hideyoshi is giving her a false abili
[18:09] <Anthile> alibi*
[18:09] <ob> i feel exactly so
[18:09] <ob> i wonder how i should properly explain this sort of presentation
[18:10] <ob> the schodinger example given by virgilia seems to work
[18:10] <ob> but its a little complicated imo
[18:10] <Anthile> yeah
[18:10] <ob> it is of course useful
[18:11] <ob> because it allows for mundane alibis as well as fantasy scenarios
[18:11] <ob> anyway it seems quite obvious that eva is now the murderer
[18:11] <ob> perhaps too obvious?
[18:11] <Anthile>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raven_paradox#The_paradox
[18:11] <ob> it could even be rosa
[18:12] <ob> (rosa was pretty awesome shooting down goatmen btw)
[18:12] <Anthile> yeah
[18:12] <Anthile> but the cake is a lie
[18:12] <Anthile>
[18:12] <ob> hah
[18:12] <ob> so was the jello
[18:14] <ob> btw
[18:14] <ob> lets think a little about how the murders in 15 were done
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[18:15] <ob> on one hand, rosa seems to have been overpowered and then impaled on the fencing
[18:15] <ob> and maria was strangled
[18:15] <Anthile> must have been a man I think
[18:15] <ob> i was thinking along the same lines
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[18:16] <Anthile> because it would need a remarkable amount of physical strength to impale someone on a fence
[18:16] <ob> what if she tripped?
[18:16] <Anthile> so it probably weren't the older people either
[18:16] <ob> and the force of the fall impaled her
[18:16] <Anthile> hmm, possible
[18:17] <ob> i think strangling a kid is something a woman could ahve done too
[18:17] <Anthile> but considering that the corpses are so near to each other it seems likely that someone killed both
[18:17] <ob> yes
[18:17] <ob> probably rosa first
[18:17] <ob> then maria
[18:17] <Anthile> as a witness, yes
[18:18] <ob> strangulation would take a bit of time anyway
[18:18] <Anthile> hm, but to kill somene with a fence you would knock that person out before it, right?
[18:19] <ob> or make it so that they tripped
[18:19] <ob> btw
[18:19] <ob> rosa dying would be quite advantageous to eva
[18:19] <ob> and the kick is that only eva knows of that advantage
[18:20] <ob> remember what she said to battler about the advatages of killing?
[18:20] <Anthile> no
[18:20] <Anthile> no sharing?
[18:20] <ob> she said it in the first arc
[18:20] <ob> she said something to the effect that she would not kill someone in a way that would cast suspicion on her
[18:20] <Anthile> oh, right
[18:21] <ob> there would be no suspicion on her in this case
[18:21] <ob> but the advantage is huge
[18:21] <ob> motive is quite clearly established
[18:21] <ob> as for oppurtunity
[18:21] <ob> hideyoshi was with eva
[18:21] <ob> hideyoshi was aware of rosa going out with maria
[18:22] <ob> he could have told eva
[18:22] <Anthile> indeed
[18:22] <ob> however
[18:22] <ob> there is no direct link between eva and the murder weapons
[18:22] <ob> except for the fact that it is possible for a woman to do the deed
[18:22] <ob> kinda possible anyway
[18:23] <Anthile> in fact, impaling someone on a fence is a very impractical method to kill someone - it takes too much time and energy
[18:24] <ob> well i think using a gun would cast too much suspicion on herself
[18:24] <ob> of a knife
[18:24] <ob> or*
[18:24] <Anthile> so the only reason to do this is a.) letting it look like an accident b.) it was out of anger
[18:25] <Anthile> what about Rosa killing Maria?
[18:25] <ob> b is more likely
[18:25] <ob> rosa the murderer?
[18:25] <Anthile> Rosa strangled Maria and someone else witnessed it and called her out
[18:25] <ob> she's dead now so there would have to be a third murderer
[18:26] <Anthile> we have seen Rosa before as being abusive
[18:26] <ob> so far her relationship with her daughter has been improving
[18:26] <ob> even at her height i doubt she'd really strangle her
[18:26] <ob> she did not hit her in 15
[18:26] <Anthile> hmm
[18:27] <ob> although she was clearly pissed
[18:27] <Anthile> what about Maria killing Rosa through pushing her on the fence?
[18:27] <ob> if maria could have done it, so could eva
[18:27] <Anthile> probably not intentionally
[18:28] <Anthile> right
[18:28] <ob> if she lost her balance and fell onto the spike its possible
[18:29] <Anthile> I bet that fence would fall though all safety tests
[18:29] <ob> we had a fence as a murder weapon in pheonix wright before
[18:29] <Anthile> I never played that
[18:29] <ob> in PW the fence was bent forward
[18:30] <ob> PW is basically an interactive murder mystery
[18:30] <ob> it even has magic :O
[18:30] <ob> anyway enough about that
[18:30] <ob> i was going to talk about the mystery style in higurashi and umineko
[18:31] <ob> where should i begin
[18:31] <ob> its harder to pin down the method in umineko than it is in higurashi
[18:31] <ob> in umineko the victims are always changing
[18:31] <ob> at least in order
[18:32] <ob> in higurashi its the same victims
[18:32] <ob> over and over again
[18:32] <ob> its just that people take turns killing them
[18:32] <Anthile> well, higurashi has a rather small cast
[18:32] <ob> but the big bad at the end is always the same
[18:33] <ob> its real fun tracking it down
[18:33] <Anthile> while umineko has billions of people running around
[18:33] <ob> 18
[18:33] <ob> let me try and count higurashi
[18:35] <ob> keiichi, shion, mion, rena, satoko, satoshi, rika, irie, takano, tomitake, oiishi
[18:35] <ob> thats 11
[18:35] <ob> im sure there's more im missing
[18:35] <ob> oh
[18:36] <ob> anyway its these people who play a major role in the murders
[18:36] <ob> there are a few victims i did not mention, but they are only there to die i guess
[18:37] <Anthile> well, in higurashi the sonozaki clan was supposed to be the real bad but it turned out they are rather okay people
[18:38] <Anthile> I think they try to pull something similar with Eva
[18:38] <ob> yeah the links to eva are too obvious
[18:39] <Anthile> Like Beato is rather playful but doesn't mind violence while Eva comes just over as psychopathic
[18:40] <ob> evabeatrice is psychopathic
[18:41] <Anthile> yeah
[18:41] <ob> a main message of higurashi and umineko is i think that under the right circumstances, every one of us can become monsters that make hitler look like elmer fuud
[18:41] <ob> bernkastel said that eva becoming the new witch was a 'coincidence'
[18:41] <ob> i think she's right
[18:41] <ob> oh
[18:41] <Anthile> hmm
[18:42] <ob> and lambdadelta showing favour for eva
[18:42] <ob> its because they used to share voice actors
[18:42] <ob> irl
[18:42] <Anthile> oh
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[18:42] <ob> but any more than that will be spoiler
[18:42] <ob> go watch higurashi
[18:42] <ob> it is awesome
[18:43] <Anthile> I did
[18:43] <ob> both seasons?
[18:43] <Anthile> yes, sir
[18:43] <ob> good man
[18:43] <ob> anyway it should be obvious
[18:43] <ob> miyo = lambdadelta
[18:43] <ob> miyo and eva share voice actors
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[18:44] <ob> it would not be surprising if their characters share certain traits
[18:44] <ob> one of them being borderline schizoid
[18:44] <Anthile> I knew it just by looking at it
[18:44] <ob> did you look up the meaning of lambdadelta?
[18:44] <Anthile> no
[18:45] <ob> what does miyo stand for?
[18:45] <Anthile> 34?
[18:45] <ob> yes
[18:45] <ob> lamdadelta happens to be greek for the number thirty four
[18:45] <Anthile>
http://img514.imageshack.us/i/motivator206dc9da716ba7.jpg/
[18:46] <ob> hawt
[18:47] <ob> i've always found miyo hawt
[18:47] <Anthile> she always looked like she was somking weed
[18:47] <Anthile> smoking
[18:47] <ob> the droppy eyes right
[18:47] <Anthile> yeah and the speech
[18:48] <Anthile> and Bernkastel is a region in Germany that is famous for its wine btw
[18:49] <ob> rika drinks?
[18:49] <Anthile> yeah
[18:49] <ob> isnt she like underaged?
[18:50] <Anthile> only her body
[18:51] <Anthile>
http://www.zelas.co.uk/media/catalo...9eda06f020e43594a9c230972d/t/h/thanisch_1.jpg
[18:53] <ob> yea her name sounded german to me
[18:53] <ob> only i found it hard to link to her
[18:54] <Anthile> "The guy who originally did the classification of the seven demons with the seven sins was Peter Binsfeld, a German auxiliary bishop and witch hunter. He was born in the 16th century in the small town of Binsfeld, in the district of Bernkastel-Wittlich. He wrote a book, which was very famous at his time, Hexentraktat, in which he argues that witches do exist and explains how to find, interrogate and execute them."
[18:54] <Anthile> that's what the trivia section of tv tropes tells us
[19:00] <Anthile> but anyway
[19:00] <Anthile> can we say that there are any rules for Umineko?
[19:00] <ob> i would say the rules are whatever said in red
[19:01] <Anthile> In Higurashi it's when Rika is dead=game over
[19:02] <ob> would not be so sure about that
[19:03] <ob> the premise of umineko is very much based on that agatha christie novel 'And then there were none'
[19:03] <ob> while higurashi seems somewhat based on parasite eve
[19:03] <Anthile> hmm
[19:04] <Anthile> why is it in the 80's anyway
[19:04] <Anthile> to avoid modern technology?
