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What is a friend?

loveofreason

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Recent posts about INTPs and roles have had me thinking, and I realise I might have such trouble with personal relationships at least partly because I don't have a secure definition of the roles involved.

So I have to ask a very basic question: what is a friend?

What defines the role of Friend and what attributes would one expect of such a character? What actions?
 

murkrow

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I can't find a way to answer your questions.

A friend is what's worth loving.
 

Ermine

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To me, a friend is a person I can rely on any time and every time. A person I can confide in and have fun with anytime and anywhere. Just someone who supports and understands me.

Needless to say, by that definition, I have hardly any friends.
 

murkrow

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I don't think that reliability is a necessary aspect of friendship.

A friend should not be expected to go beyond themselves to aid you, that is selfish.

If a friend is not there when you expect them to be, it is your error of perception not of their friendship but of their person.
 

Ex-User (221)

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Friends come and go, enemies accumulate.

For me, it's someone you can trust, someone you're not afraid to show the real you.

At the moment, my friend count is 0.
 

murkrow

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For me, it's someone you can trust, someone you're not afraid to show the real you.

You can trust all human beings to do as they will.

You have nothing to fear from showing the real you.

Congrats, you now have 6,000,000,000 friends!

Friendship is not something that is used to cover up insecurities, I think a lot of people (especially Is) tend to see friendship as a recognition of an ally in another person.

The most important aspect of friendship is your side. A friend is someone who you will sacrifice yourself for, not someone who will sacrifice their life for you.
 

Ex-User (221)

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A friend is someone who you will sacrifice yourself for, not someone who will sacrifice their life for you.

The only problem with that is that at times, I'd do that for someone I don't even know. I'm very undecided as to self esteem and the likes.
 

bealert

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This is a good question. Once I had a friend (I thought) who one day said to me that she didn't really consider me a friend because she couldn't imagine us going shopping together.
We had different definitions...
 

Radioactive_Springtime

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the only one i can really say fits a good definition of friend right now would be an ENFP
 

Thread Killer

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Friends come and go, enemies accumulate.

For me, it's someone you can trust, someone you're not afraid to show the real you.

At the moment, my friend count is 0.

QFT (quoted for truth if ya didn't know, lol, if I meant otherwise, you'd know, though I choose to be polite in my disdain not that I am easily moved to such sentiments).

And ditto.

Though I would say the guy I'm dating (ENTP) is my closest friend (though I have a hard time determining if my friends are really my friends) but I don't actually feel anything more than that, but it works out for the time being, I think.
 

Kuu

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A friend is someone who, through constant contact and shared activities, knows your general preferences, likes and dislikes, and has a decent (yet basic) understanding of your personality and motivations. You must enjoy mutual companionship with this person, as you learn from and support each other.
 

Radioactive_Springtime

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some one who can convince you against suicide after you boil down the basic goal of your life so far to be figuratively no different than a heroine addiction.
 

vic

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a friend to me (like other posters have mentioned) is basically someone I can trust and that I know will be there for me. They are someone that understands the way I am and how I'm not like the norm. Currently I have about a bunch of acquaintances and maybe 2 friends that I really trust right now. Keep in mind, sometimes friends turn into acquaintances and acquaintances turn into friends.

Personally I find it hard to make friends, and it seems most people find it difficult that I don't conform as much as they do.
 

loveofreason

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...I think a lot of people (especially Is) tend to see friendship as a recognition of an ally in another person..

*nods madly*

But what does that say about those of us who identify with this - that we see the social world as essentially hostile?

The recurring theme of trust is problematic. I think I can trust a stranger to act in their own best interests, which makes them as humanly predictable as possible. But once a person is closer, that's when trust dissolves. Once someone has personal expectations of you; once personal power plays are triggered ...bah! What's that saying about keeping your friends close and your enemies closer? It seems there's some invisible line round me, and once someone gets close enough to cross that line, they actually change from friend to foe. :(

Hence needing to know. Needing an outline of the friendship role. If the boundaries are defined, the chances of wandering into the wrong territory are reduced.

This musing could be all the result of depression and stress; for some reason I seem to have an exaggerated sense of self-preservation, and no one gets close without triggering alarms. :phear:
 

bealert

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The recurring theme of trust is problematic. I think I can trust a stranger to act in their own best interests, which makes them as humanly predictable as possible. But once a person is closer, that's when trust dissolves. Once someone has personal expectations of you; once personal power plays are triggered ...bah!

[/quote]

This is a good observation--I am still mulling it...
Is it possible to not let another person's expectations get their talons into us -- and still be close?
 

murkrow

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You guys all need a nice calming down lol.

You're so adorable.
 

Jesin

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You speak like calming down is something that other people can do to/for us. Don't forget, we're I's. That rarely works.
 

Vrecknidj

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What it means for someone to be a friend varies rather widely. Defining "friend" is going to be a little like defining "game." We INTPs rather prefer the Platonic way of defining (e.g. see the definition of "square" in geometry). However, not every term lends itself to that level of precision.

However, I think that there are different kinds of friend, and different levels of friendship. Reciprocity is often seen as an indicator of "true" friendship, such that if X is the friend of Y, but Y is not the friend of X, then X and Y are not "true friends." But, that's just one nuance among many.

An Aristotelian question, emerging from your original, would be this: "What is a friend for?" The teleological approach might be helpful in finding out what a friend is.

Dave
 

Zero

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The only types of friendships I've had are the ones that happen by association. We're in the same place, working on similar projects. Or they're friends, because they're friends of the family or friends of someone in my family.

To me a friend is someone I can meet again at random, we can talk and have a good time, but in the end we part.

Sort of like "We part at the crossroads, you leave with your joys and problems, I with mine. Alone, I look down the road. Each one must walk one's own path."
 

Jordan~

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My friends are mostly people who interest me, and my best friends are people I'm not afraid to be open and honest with, who I can trust and "come out of my shell" around. I only have one who I know in person, my dear ESFP best friend who I've had for years.
 
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loveofreason

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What it means for someone to be a friend varies rather widely. Defining "friend" is going to be a little like defining "game." We INTPs rather prefer the Platonic way of defining (e.g. see the definition of "square" in geometry). However, not every term lends itself to that level of precision.

However, I think that there are different kinds of friend, and different levels of friendship. Reciprocity is often seen as an indicator of "true" friendship, such that if X is the friend of Y, but Y is not the friend of X, then X and Y are not "true friends." But, that's just one nuance among many.

An Aristotelian question, emerging from your original, would be this: "What is a friend for?" The teleological approach might be helpful in finding out what a friend is.

Dave

Yes indeed, what functions does friendship serve? *scrabbles away to do a function analysis*

Actually here I can apply permaculture methodology: take the system component known as 'friend', Identify for 'friend' each of its needs, functions and outputs, Do likewise for each component in system that is total of my life. Conclude the optimum positioning of 'friend' relative to all other components in system, and more hence create more fruitful relationships.

thanks. :)

I need some help.

1.What needs does a friend have?
2.What functions does a friend fulfill?
3.What things does a friend produce?

Es have more innate friend sense. They know how to be a friend. Am I right that we INTPs are clueless? (Despite all having a pretty definition, we mostly conclude we're friendless...)
 

Melkor

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The guy that walks in when everyone else walks out?
 

Kuu

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Es have more innate friend sense. They know how to be a friend. Am I right that we INTPs are clueless? (Despite all having a pretty definition, we mostly conclude we're friendless...)

Maybe we just have higher standards? So many people claim to be surrounded by friends, but it's just a huge charade...
 

Cabbo Pearimo

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A freind is a person who is worthy of trust, and accepting of your strange small-talk methods. "So, how's life?"
"Alright, then again, what's life?"
"Yeah... I wonder. Hey, is that a squirrel?"
"Cool."
 

wadlez

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Having friends is a behaviour we have evolved. Back in the cave men days people that made alliances prospered and had a better chance to survive.

If you look at friends from a instinctual and animilistic perspective they begin to make more sense, eg people who are known to fight or are known to be tuff are very popular and most commonly high in the pecking order in social groups, this is because they would of made really good allies.
That was just a small example, think of your friends and how they reflect your social status, think about starting a new job and how some ppl will really want to suck up to you and be your friend and you denie them because there dorky, whilst you accept people you percieve to be cool. People of lower social status try to befriend you to raise in rank. Thinking like this can really put things in perspective.

Because were not just animals though, we can also have deeper relationships which evolve to be higher than just alliances for mutual gain. The test for me of true friendship is whether a friend leaves you if they raise in social rank.
Over the years I have had many friends who I thought I was close to back stab me for some reason or another (girls or attempting to raise in social status).

Another insight which may sound shocking and pessimistic, but Im not the only person to say this, Your friends are really just your enemies. This is a fact I have found repeatedly throughout my life, ignored, then rediscovered over and over.
The only people who genuinly care for you are your family.
 

Jesin

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Your friends are really just your enemies. This is a fact I have found repeatedly throughout my life, ignored, then rediscovered over and over.
The only people who genuinly care for you are your family.

That isn't always the case; there are different kinds of friends. Also, the family doesn't always care. Abandonment does happen.

Some people care, some people don't, whether they're family or not.

It also depends on what you mean by "care". There are different kinds of caring, too.

Also, have you read The Moral Animal? I ask because that book says many of the same things you just said.
 
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1.What needs does a friend have?
2.What functions does a friend fulfill?
3.What things does a friend produce?

1. a friend should communicate needs based on what they need, I have my jock friends, who aren't good for discussion, but good for football, or ultimate frisbee, etc. and I have my friends, that all we ever do is play video games, or talk about philosophy, different people have different needs.

2. the opposite of the previous answer, if I want to get out some aggression, I will call my jock friends, and ask if they want to play football, or whatever I happen to need at the time. If I just want to veg, I call my gamer friends. I try to meet others, doing what they enjoy. On this forum, I get in my discussion for the day ;)

3. I prefer not to think of a friend as a fruit stand (sorry terrible joke...) in short, I don't know what a friend "produces", it makes it sound kind of weird...
 

wadlez

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I havent read the moral animal, but I'll look out for it, sounds interesting.

I have always had a broad range of friends and never have been in just one group. Most people I know have 1 main group of friends that they have always been with, I have always been part of 3 or 4 groups at a time.
Each group I have been in has been very unique from the other, Geeks, hardcores, alternatives etc. I think that this could be an INTP thing, Is anyone else here the same in this regard.

1. a friend should communicate needs based on what they need, I have my jock friends, who aren't good for discussion, but good for football, or ultimate frisbee, etc. and I have my friends, that all we ever do is play video games, or talk about philosophy, different people have different needs


Im similar
 

Devercia

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I had once heard a classification of love into types. Although love and friendship have very different meanings, I think the same can be true of friendship. There were six types none exclusive to the others:

Storge: Love of friendship; a relationship based upon mutual interest, be it active, emotional, or intellectual. A relationship that is fun or interesting.

Agape: Love of your better; A relation based on commitment and trust. Familial connections are commonly agape. Often very self-sacrificing.

Mania: Love of your rival; a relationship based on competition and rivalry.

Pragma: Love of practicality; a relation ship based on mutual tradeoffs. Often built upon power, security, wealth etc.

Ludis: Love of the conquest; based upon the relationship itself, often very temporary and reliant on 'mystery' and 'emotional intrigue.'

Eros: Love of beauty, not very relevant to friendship.
 

loveofreason

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A freind is a person who is worthy of trust, and accepting of your strange small-talk methods. "So, how's life?"
"Alright, then again, what's life?"
"Yeah... I wonder. Hey, is that a squirrel?"
"Cool."

Sounds curiously like actual conversations I've had... except substitute just about anything else for squirrel.

Wadlez, I get the picture of friendship being social intrigue; a kind of power and survival game, yet it raises more questions than it answers.

Just for a start: Does not wanting to play that game amount to automatic friendlessness? Does playing that game automatically reduce all friends to chess pieces? Does political function preclude genuine sentiment?

I'm not sure what to make of carrying the friend-as-neutralised-enemy paradigm. I do extend it to family though. Some of my more immediate family are my most potent enemies. Now what exactly is going on psychologically here? This isn't helpful to me as I'm obviously missing out on a general definition/experience of friendship in which the key is the capacity to trust. To feel safe enough in the presence of another human being that the defences can be relaxed. I find that the better I know a person ('friend' or family), the less possible this is. I'm curious as to why.

Devercia - thanks for the definitions. It will do me well to ponder.

Rather than dwell on the definition of friendship as a pragma relationship, what about those other mysterious bonds that serve other functions. What about storge?

A storge friendship produces relaxation? The function of a storge friend is relief from stress? A reduction of cortisol levels?

It seems this is the elusive ally that I seek against the intrigues of the world.
 

Ogion

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What is interesting in the case of "friend" is the different use in diffenrent languages. I read somewhere (it is of xourse no hands-on knowledge, but just from books), that in the USA people tend to become 'friends' as quickly as visiting a new neighboor. And that together with the quick use of ones first name. But that 'friends' of that category really are just aquaintances, which you have no deeper connection to. In Germany, from where i come, it is somewhat different. You usually don't call someone by the firstname, unless he (or she) is a child, someone of a common peergroups (like in university every student is normally already on a first name basis, if you are a student too), someone of a lesser social 'rank' (like pupil to teacher). But normally you call someone "Herr xyz" (Mister xyz). And in connection to this there is the definition of 'Freund'. If there would be a scale from 1 to 10, where 1 complete stranger and 10 soulmate, then we in Germany start to call someone friend, at perhaps 5, and a good friend at 7. As i understand it, in America a friend would be already someone at 3, good one at 5. (These numbers are of course not to be taken literally, they are just to illustrate the difference).

In regard of the function of a friend, i would say, a friend is someone who cares for you and whom you care for. I don't think someone who is of the "friend-as-neutralised-enemy paradigm" (as mentioned in above posts) would count as friend for me. With a friend i just don't have to have such kind of feelings/thoughts. One can just be, who one is, and the friend can do exactly the same.

Ogion
 

loveofreason

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The difference Ogion describes between what qualifies for friendship in different cultures is very real to me. The lack of accurate definitions in the Enlglish language is indicative of our culture's lack of appreciation for the subtleties of affection. And for our low sense of social connectivity. Perhaps a cultural history of friendship starvation has left many individuals with a disproportionate friendship appetite. (Biological-psychological need unaddressed by social condtioning.) We lack the true senses required to identify what is healthy and what constitutes satiation in this regard. As a culture we exhibit friendship binges and addiction to junk social bonds. Friendship has become distorted and is actually a raft of very different relationships lumped under the one title.

I'm not in sync. with my culture - and very uncertain where on that hypothetical scale I could presume to call someone 'friend'. The very definition of friend in my external and internal worls is at odds. No relationship actually meets the criteria, nor does my behaviour, for what I would consider true friendship - something close to "One can just be, who one is, and the friend can do exactly the same."

How does one attain this level of security with another? :confused:
 

Vrecknidj

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As a culture we exhibit friendship binges and addiction to junk social bonds. Friendship has become distorted and is actually a raft of very different relationships lumped under the one title.
Truly. Much of what falls under the social conception of "friend" does not apply to the relationship I have with my friends.
I'm not in sync. with my culture - and very uncertain where on that hypothetical scale I could presume to call someone 'friend'. The very definition of friend in my external and internal worls is at odds. No relationship actually meets the criteria, nor does my behaviour, for what I would consider true friendship - something close to "One can just be, who one is, and the friend can do exactly the same."
This isn't so hard to do. It just takes practice.
How does one attain this level of security with another? :confused:
By overcoming the fears of insecurity.

On a related topic, it's worth considering just how many people claim to have a dog or cat or horse or, in short, something not human, as a friend. In some cases, this is actually a best friend.

Some rare lucky souls like me happen to be married to their best friends. I have all kinds of troubles in my life, but, in the one place where I would have wanted there to be gold in my life, there it is.

That said, I have a small handful of people I definitely call my friends. We're not just members of mutual admiration societies either. All these folks (my wife included) can drive me batty from time to time.

Still, I won't lie and say it's been simple.

Dave
 

Devercia

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overuse of the term friend may have to do with our culture itself, not the language. I think we all can agree, 'friend' and 'freund' are the same word.

American culture is extremely informal. The lack of formality breaks down walls that would otherwise guard and obscure certain personality traits that would take a great deal of time to uncover in formal cultures. I cant immagein how long it would take to get to the level of personal understanding that one would call intimacy with someone from Japan, but here it could take as little as a week.

There was a guy who evaluated each nations culture, but I have since lost any info on him, cant find it anywhere. He evaluated based on introversion and extraversion, as well as 3 other continuum. One was masculine/feminine.

Jesin: noted.

Edit: Hofstede is his name. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hofstede
 

Ogion

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overuse of the term friend may have to do with our culture itself, not the language. I think we all can agree, 'friend' and 'freund' are the same word.

American culture is extremely informal. The lack of formality breaks down walls that would otherwise guard and obscure certain personality traits that would take a great deal of time to uncover in formal cultures. I cant immagein how long it would take to get to the level of personal understanding that one would call intimacy with someone from Japan, but here it could take as little as a week.

Well, it isn't as strict with etiquette here as it is in Japan, but there are some rules. Mostly i find them useful. Especially, that i can maintain a distance to others when i want to (and normally this desire will be regarded). But of corse, there are some annoyances. Sometimes you have to be careful or at least minding how you adress others. I mean, i can imagine that the american approach has some advantages too. It produces a public life which is more likeable/friendly.

How does one attain this level of security with another?
I think, if you just act accordingly to your definition, than after some time others around you may notice that and consider their behaviour. You can 'teach' others a bit like that. And who is nonetheless interested in having some relation to you could be worth new consideration. But i think, you don't have to have many such true friends. I think i have one or two (one of who i know now for say 20 of 21 years ;)). So it would be worth the extra time in finding someone likely to become one.

Ogion
 

Kumori

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A friend is someone to do things with, someone to talk with, see a movie with, play games with, to do all those activities you can't do by yourself.
 

loveofreason

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...By overcoming the fears of insecurity...



...Still, I won't lie and say it's been simple.

Dave

Truly. :)

Especially for those of us inclined to be our own worst enemy.

If only I could remain perfectly detached from the whole wide world of humanity, and not want for affection, life would be simple. *melodramatic sigh*

:phear:
 

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loveofreason said:
If only I could remain perfectly detached from the whole wide world of humanity, and not want for affection, life would be simple.
The simplest thing is emptiness. We have a kind of cruel saying here: "Once dead the dog, finished is the rabies" (or something like that). However, friends are worth the hassle (and so is the dog damit! :p )
 

Perseus

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Recent posts about INTPs and roles have had me thinking, and I realise I might have such trouble with personal relationships at least partly because I don't have a secure definition of the roles involved.

So I have to ask a very basic question: what is a friend?

What defines the role of Friend and what attributes would one expect of such a character? What actions?

Hello,

Types of Personal Relationships tell. You have to make sure you have your own type sussed first and then the other types are hard to judge as well.

http://typelogic.com/pairs.html

This is the real advantage of the TypeLogic page. Even people you know well may be acting out a different type. Somebody I know who appears to be a ISFJ (Mouse), I think, deep down, is really a ISTP variant (Panda). This is morph-shifting. :phear:

Its the Christian influence and the Horsemen (ESFJ) that skews behaviour. They rule and have access to the psycho-social resources. In other words they are land thieves and sheep rustlers.

Andy
http://soredragon.blogspot.com/
 

Cabbo Pearimo

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A friend's a cold drink o' whisky, followed by a smooth lovin' woman.



Oh yeah.





A friend is someone who you can judge, and find the way they act amiable. This must be mutual.
 
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