What do you think of feminism

[Ex-User (9062)]

That's all wrong pre-conceptions of man-female role models. They are equally wrong.
And who creates these beliefs?

 

[Deleted member 1424]

Okay, how are you being persecuted, Adaire? Because with all this screaming about "persecution" and "oppression," I still have not seen one example which we can examine. Just a bunch of generalization and witch hunting.

Sorry Goku.
I have standards for discussion and you fall far far short of them.

I know a Sisyphean task when I see one, but I invite you to try to enlighten yourself instead of demanding other people do it for you.

You also, exhibit the bitch attitude, by the way (but I'm sure you get that a lot so you probably know already).

 

[Ex-User (9062)]

I'm not sure if that is a tolerable response to anything.

 

[Goku]

Sorry Goku.
I have standards for discussion and you fall far far short of them.

I know a Sisyphean task when I see one, but I invite you to try to enlighten yourself instead of demanding other people do it for you.

I know a butch lesbian when I see one too.

 

[Kuu]

Well, was all of that really necessary?

*sigh*



I agree with Latte, but alas...

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

How about a plot twist to something that's more... ongoing?

http://modernwomandigest.com/disturbing-new-feminist-trend-free-bleeding/

A disturbing new trend is on the rise, thanks to extreme feminist bloggers and activists everywhere. The trend is something called “Free Bleeding,” in which a woman who is menstruating chooses to use feminine products no longer, in exchange for allowing her blood to flow “freely” out of her body, staining her clothing and running down her thighs to wherever it may end up.

The idea behind this movement is two different ideas. One, is that a woman’s time of the month should not be considered something unclean and unnatural, something to be hidden and cleaned up hastily before it has the chance to offend anyone who may become privy to the fact that said woman’s body is evacuating her loins of unused baby blood. The second, being that tampons, pads, and other feminine hygiene products are “man” made inventions, intended to inadvertently rape a woman during her period, thus furthering her victim status as a woman living in a world run by men. These two reasons combined, have produced the idea that women need to make a stand against the practice of wearing products which collect, absorb, and discard the menstrual flow. That by letting it run freely, is the way nature intended us to deal with our monthly.

So what do you make of 1) freebleeding 2) the structure that 4chan is exploiting?

 

[Latte]

See I'd prefer that I earn more money than my girlfriend because I feel like that is what I bring to the table. Resources. If she makes more resources than me, that inspires a feeling of insecurity, like, "what does she need me for?" Can feminists not understand this? I don't personally have any bias equal pay for men and women. But, I do tend to hold this feeling that it's MY JOB to bring home the bacon and make life comfortable for us. In exchange, she's going to have sex with me and nobody else. I think that's a fair trade off.

Saying that, and also saying feminism isn't needed anymore should ring an inconsistency alarm bell immediately within you.

What do you think people with similar attitudes to you being in charge of salaries, hiring practices, legislation, parenting and other power junctures results in? Discrimination based on gender on a massive scale.

If you can't see that then yes, you are brainwashed by culture and do not possess the combination of intellectual courage, will and cognitive resourcefulness to perceive things anywhere near how they are when it comes to the opportunity for people to have the possibility for good, dignified lives within society.

And so long as there are a significant amount of people holding the views you hold, feminism will at minimum remain relevant in the cultural change arena.

 

[Polaris]

To be fair, Goku has spoken from a rational perspective regarding equality in general in his reply to alysa. I encourage people to read this thoroughly before replying again.

Whether he prefers his female partner to have a more traditional role is his business and...hers, if she agrees. I don't necessarily agree with all of his arguments, but I discourage name-calling from either sides as this is leading absolutely nowhere.

Men and women are meant to complement each other. These complementary unions can take on many forms, and it is up to the individuals involved to agree on this structure, not for us to tell them how. On the same token, a healthy self-image is essential if this is to be balanced on equal terms. Often people get into relationships equipped with very poor emotional health. This causes all sorts of problems, and societal/cultural gender role perceptions is too often the root of these problems.

I personally think the word 'feminism' evokes too much negativity. It implies a gender-bias already, so is quite inflammatory.

See, I don't even regard myself as a particular gender (from an intellectual perspective). I have a female physique, yes. But that is where it all stops

 

[Goku]

Saying that, and also saying feminism isn't needed anymore should ring an inconsistency alarm bell immediately within you.

What do you think people with similar attitudes to you being in charge of salaries, hiring practices, legislation, parenting and other power junctures results in? Discrimination based on gender on a massive scale.

If you can't see that then yes, you are brainwashed by culture and do not possess the combination of intellectual courage, will and cognitive resourcefulness to perceive things anywhere near how they are when it comes to the opportunity for people to have the possibility for good, dignified lives within society.

And so long as there are a significant amount of people holding the views you hold, feminism will at minimum remain relevant in the cultural change arena.

what is preventing women from having good, dignified lives, currently?

Also, there are a lot of roles placed on men: like having to make the first move, paying for dates, etc. It seems like you want to restructure even these things. I don't have a problem with these things. I think that feminists see problems where none exist.

 

[Polaris]

^ Some feminists see problems where none exist. I think you are talking about the loud, blinkered, hard-core, extreme feminists. Many of them don't do anyone any favours, male or female.

 

[Minuend]

I personally think the word 'feminism' evokes too much negativity. It implies a gender-bias already, so is quite inflammatory.

See, I don't even regard myself as a particular gender (from an intellectual perspective). I have a female physique, yes. But that is where it all stops

It's peculiar that the word is negatively loaded to such degree, no? Why is it such a scary word?

Homosexuality was once considered a ugly word too. I don't think it is as much that the word has the feminine touch, but rather how some take it upon themselves to represent a movement they disagree with in a unfavorably way. Obviously unfair, flawed statements are exaggerated in media supposed to represent the entirety of feminism. Comedy shows exaggerate feminism by showing characters that emasculate their men, men who in essence becomes women by spending time in the bathroom (because that's what women do) or similar. Ridiculing the movement based on the word itself, spreading misinformation about feminists being extreme individuals one can not reason with.

Eventually people become reluctant to call themselves a feminists. The opposition get what it wants.

I think this fear, negative association is a symptom of the problem in general. I think when women and men come closer to being considered individuals, people will not have this pessimistic perspective on feminism, because they do not feel threatened by it. And it will naturally morph into something else.

in short, I think the same movement with a more gender neutral name would still be largely tied to the same negative associations.

what is preventing women from having good, dignified lives, currently?

Also, there are a lot of roles placed on men: like having to make the first move, paying for dates, etc. It seems like you want to restructure even these things. I don't have a problem with these things. I think that feminists see problems where none exist.

The things you bring up might be issues that are judged in favor of women, but what you fail to realize is the difference where males as a whole are not considered inferior because of it. Often on the contrary, those issues arise because males are normatively seen as capable providers and leaders, not nurturers and only that. Of course, that does not mean they are not issues to be explored, but you are comparing two issues which have very different ramifications.

You are yourself are believing in stereotypes harmful to women and unfair to men and yet say feminists create problems where none exist. You are a walking contradiction.

You fail to realize that feminism is not about who pays for a date, but what implications our actions and thoughts have on a grander scale. You say you find it your job to bring home pay. Well, apply this thinking to the work realm where a new leader is being hired. Who will be chosen?
Which is basically what Latte said, but that you ignored.

For example, drop 10 women and 10 men and an island... wait there's been a show like that recently, Lost... lol. What will be the natural order of things? Men will go hunt and do the dangerous and physically demanding things. Women will tend to the upkeep of the living quarters and raising of the children while men are out doing the dangerous things

As our culture is biased toward that kind of thinking, I don't see that as unlikely. But in fact there are and have been tribes where women take part in hunting as well. In the Aka tribe, some males even breastfeed their young as supplement to the mother if she is busy.

All our rules and laws come from a logical place.

No.

 

[Socra Maat]

I found it by googling narcissistic and another keyword which led me to this thread: https://www.flashback.org/t2274376

I'm not sure what to think of it all yet personally.

I read through quite a bit... after the feminism chapters he goes on about structure advice... which I agree with to an extent, but damn. It's a J giving J advice and indirectly bashing the INTP to hell. I wish it was so easy to apply useful J habits into my life, but it's way harder than implied, I've always been programmed to defy those.

Talking about the manhood101 e-book by the way.

 

[Amagi82]

That’s one opinion. Unfortunately, I’d much rather base my opinion on the feminism movement in reality rather than what’s going on in video games XD. And, unfortunately in reality you have to consider fun little facts like in child custody cases 5/6 of the time the mother is the one awarded child support(http://dalrock.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/custody_breakdown_sex1.png) and by extension at least majority custody of the child. If we were equal are mothers better parents that much more often?

Video games are an example- a reflection of the sexism in society. Concerning child custody cases, there is something very wrong with our culture that needs to be addressed in addition to balancing that particular scale. Humans do not naturally pair bond for life(read Sex at Dawn)- the fact that the concept of marriage exists is a bastardization of our natures. We're supposed to be in large, polyamorous communities, where we have a strong network of people to help raise children. Restore that, and "custody" is largely irrelevant.

Men are just as objectified as women. There is just as much pressure for men to be muscular and manly as there is for women to be skinny. The reality is that is what is found as attractive and sex sells. Another inconvenient reality is that women are actually the protagonist in many games(Final Fantasy 13, Lara Croft, Resident Evil) which are just as fun and with characters just as strong as male protagonist. Also the $0.77 to a dollar thing often cited doesn’t take into account things like hours worked, days missed etc. And it stands to reason that the same ones who are working more hours, and missing less days are more likely to be promoted which accounts for the majority male CEO thing as well.

Holy shit, no they're not. Pay special attention to the intent behind the objectification. With relatively few examples to the contrary, women are exaggerated and presented as objects to be rescued, acquired, and to fuck. Men are exaggerated with the intent that you'd want to be them. There are thousands of examples of this in action (many highlighted by the videos I mentioned). The women in all these examples are rendered powerless, while the men are presented as heroic and capable. There are mercifully some examples of strong female characters, like Lara Croft in the recent Tomb Raider reboot, but they are few and far between.

There are many monetary issues that could be brought up here, but since I think money should be eliminated altogether, as a concept, I lack the interest to bicker about the details of monetary and business inequality.

 

[Amagi82]

Feminism in America is functionally obsolete. Sure there can still be minor gains made in certain areas. But for the most part, women can vote and own property and run for president. What more can we achieve?

So, we have a functionally obsolete movement and organization and entity-- feminism, which tries dearly to cling to a cause, often grasping for straws and over-dramatizing perceived slights to reinforce its own fading relevance.

It was useful and desirable once, as a two-bedroom one bathroom home might have been. But those things have been torn down to make way for the new.

Feminism is a vestige of our past, making a very endearing attempt to survive.

The fact that you even believe the words you're typing is proof positive that feminism has a loooooong way to go. We are in a very insidious phase right now where a sizable percentage of people believe equality is had, game over, good job. I used to be one of those people. Then I was educated by people more aware than I.

 

[Amagi82]

There's no point to discuss this with someone ignorant enough to write what I quoted. Either Goku is a genuine misogynist or he's speaking from ignorance. Regardless it's so off the mark that there's no point to even attempt discussing the topic.

Seems to be a common issue on many forums, young men angry who see little to no oppression of women but are quite able to spot oppression or something like it when it comes from feminists. This skewed perspective in itself proves that feminism is needed.

Agreed with everything you said.

 

[Steven Gerrard]

The fact that you even believe the words you're typing is proof positive that feminism has a loooooong way to go. We are in a very insidious phase right now where a sizable percentage of people believe equality is had, game over, good job. I used to be one of those people. Then I was educated by people more aware than I.

How isn't equity had?

I mean the cultural view of women has changed alot. In a good way.

How do you suggest going about change? Anything government mandated is patronising isn't it?

edit: at least in the suburb of Vancouver

 

[Polaris]

I agree with your historical analysis Minuend. However, I think more progress would be made if it was called a gender-reconciliation movement. In that way, there will be no perception of finger-pointing, and thus, a better basis for negotiation. At the moment, there seems to be too much negative association, and I doubt it will change for the better. We have to build bridges, not create gaps.

The establishment of a gender-specific movement was initially a great idea, but considering the irrational aspect of human nature, and the historic dominance of male culture in modern Western society, it was bound to eventually fall on infertile ground (pun not intended).

Homosexuality and such terms are perhaps more publicly accepted now, but in reality people are still perpetuating their brain-washed attitudes; just take a look at country Australia.

In short; it's all nice talk, but the reality is different, just like the issue with feminism. There are still disturbing statistics regarding violence and abuse in homes, and the arrogance towards female politicians here is astounding. How do we solve it? By incorporating movements that will only aggravate the issue even more, or by attempting reconciliation on a more neutral ground?

I don't know. These are just thoughts.

 

[Amagi82]

You also, exhibit the bitch attitude, by the way (but I'm sure you get that a lot so you probably know already).

... What the hell, dude? Why the personal attacks? Your statements reek of ignorant rage, the sort that happens when someone is mad about his position being threatened, but lacks the intellectual and emotional maturity to discuss something in a rational manner. Pay careful attention to the cultural programming the following video discusses:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZn_lJoN6PI#t=179

Notice how all the boys are trained from early childhood to build, fight, kill, and destroy? And the girls are trained to be vain, image-obsessed, avoid intellectual pursuits, etc? You think this doesn't have an effect? If I were to breed, there's no fucking way I'd allow a television or any other source of advertisements in the house. Any toys I presented my child with would be constructive, artistic, and intellectual. I think it's borderline child abuse to subject our young to advertising.

For example, drop 10 women and 10 men and an island... wait there's been a show like that recently, Lost... lol. What will be the natural order of things? Men will go hunt and do the dangerous and physically demanding things. Women will tend to the upkeep of the living quarters and raising of the children while men are out doing the dangerous things.

I think this type of thinking is innate within us? Or maybe I fail to realize that I have been brainwashed by mainstream culture? I don't know.

All our rules and laws come from a logical place.

These behaviors are the result of strong cultural programming. It's difficult to find a totally unbiased assessment, but a good place to start is by examining isolated, primitive cultures. Some of that behavior may be natural, but it's a mistake to assume it is so because our culture displays that behavior.

See I'd prefer that I earn more money than my girlfriend because I feel like that is what I bring to the table. Resources. If she makes more resources than me, that inspires a feeling of insecurity, like, "what does she need me for?" Can feminists not understand this? I don't personally have any bias equal pay for men and women. But, I do tend to hold this feeling that it's MY JOB to bring home the bacon and make life comfortable for us. In exchange, she's going to have sex with me and nobody else. I think that's a fair trade off.

(but I also recognize that these are still largely insecurities that I can get rid of...)

You'd prefer??

I'd prefer that stupid people be castrated. I'd prefer that we lowered the human population by about 80%. I'd prefer that we tie religious people to chairs and educate them.

Perhaps it's good that world decisions aren't made on account of our whims. Why do you believe it's your job to "bring home the bacon"? Why do you believe you are inadequate if a woman makes more money than you? If your spouse makes more money, that benefits you both. Why let that bother you? Why should a woman have sex with you and nobody else? Why would you be bothered by a woman you love having sex with other people?

 

[Amagi82]

How isn't equity had?

I mean the cultural view of women has changed alot. In a good way.

How do you suggest going about change? Anything government mandated is patronising isn't it?

edit: at least in the suburb of Vancouver

Thank you for being the voice of reason on the other side of the debate. The cultural views of women have changed a lot, mostly in a good way.

I generally don't look to government to solve problems. Government exists to maintain a system, not to change it.

Equity isn't had in a vast array of different areas, though they are often more subtle than they have been in the past. Differential income, percentage representation in media, gender roles, cultural expectations, gendered children's advertisements, representation in gaming, the list is very very long, and only the most poignant issues tend to rise to the surface.

What we can do in the short term is call people out who are actively a problem, ask them why they believe what they believe, post on social media, ask questions, and be open to the idea that you may be wrong and/or have more to learn.

In the long term, we need to completely rework our entire society from the ground up, but that's beyond the scope of this thread.

Oh, here's something you can do to build awareness. If you use Chrome (and if you don't, go ahead and pick it up for a while just to try this out), try out this plugin: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/...chy/fiidcfoaaciclafodoficaofidfencgd?hl=en-US

See how your perceptions of gender affect how you view the world. Any time something looks weird when viewed through that plugin, you're experiencing cultural gender bias. It's a wondrous tool for self-examination.

 

[Ex-User (9062)]

Men and women are meant to complement each other. These complementary unions can take on many forms, and it is up to the individuals involved to agree on this structure, not for us to tell them how.

 

[redbaron]

Fuck yo unions, $m0k3 w33d 3v3|2yd4y #420

I'm not bored at work right now. Nope, not at all.

 

[Ink]

I read through quite a bit... after the feminism chapters he goes on about structure advice... which I agree with to an extent, but damn. It's a J giving J advice and indirectly bashing the INTP to hell. I wish it was so easy to apply useful J habits into my life, but it's way harder than implied, I've always been programmed to defy those.

Talking about the manhood101 e-book by the way.

I got the impression he was an INTP (he was also described by some as a narcissistic sociopath) with a lot of self hatred, personally, I read some on his forum as well though.

 

[code]

Proof that feminism is a joke:

Here are the effects of feminism on men and women

and

Here's a LIVE webcam debate against a feminist.

 

[RaBind]

I started a thread about this a while back. You should take a look at it.

There definitely seems to be a clash back against feminism in internet based communities and forums. Examples of such are in reddit, 4chan and youtube.
Essentially this push back isn't just against feminism. It is against any culture/group/ideology, which doesn't fare well against criticisms and scrutinization. This isn't to say that feminism is wrong (notice how I have to tip toe to avoid mistakes as this is a sensitive issue to many, and simply communicating badly can mean the discussion is over), but that it cannot stand to take criticisms and scrutinization as points for self evaluation and improvement, or doesn't do this too well. This is the same internet based culture/meme which has clashed against religion and pseudoscience. This internet culture/meme at it's heart practices skepticism and the freedom of speech, and is a creation of the anonymous identity available on the internet.

Feminism doesn't get along well with this culture as feminism has been from it's birth, a vocal movement, which resorts to portraying radical representations of itself, in order to raise awareness of the issues for which it is concerned, and receive acknowledgement from wider society or the existence and prevalence of said issues.

There is also a sort of xenophobic warlike mentality in feminism which is obviously not going to sit well, when it comes to the evaluation of what the movement. The clear dissonance between what the movement aims for/claims to be and what it does in representing itself will certainly raise alarms to observers and bystanders making they distance themselves from the extremist (note-extremist doesn't mean wrong) group. If you're talking about bystanders than you're not going to get a larger audience than on the internet. Here hundreds of millions of viewers can read and judge anything and everything, this is definitely not where radical feminists gain supporters.
(note-I haven't claimed whether feminism is right or wrong, hell not even the op is directed to addressing whether feminism is right or wrong, I'm simply explaining why feminism is facing a clash back in many internet communities)

There's already a men's rights trend in the other direction if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Cherry Cola]

I know a butch lesbian when I see one too.

^thinks that feminism is not needed because women have voting rights; resorts to a typical sexist ad-hom upon being informed that it's pointless to discuss the question with someone who doesn't even see the sexism that is everywhere in plain sight nor how women are discriminated against in a plethora of ways.

And feminism is about more than women in general, there are tons of people who do not fit into their socially expected roles and who suffer under cissexual assumptions and ignorance, be a man and ephemate? You're gay. Cut your hair short as a girl and be straightforward? Lesbian.

srsly goku, do your homework and then come back, no actually do your homework and then fuck off

 

[ApostateAbe]

Is feminism overrepresented in western culture today? Should we start a mens rights trend in the other direction?

Popular backlashes against the excesses of feminism already exist, and it has happened independant of a men's rights movement. Feminism is about advancing the interests of women, but the excesses of feminism is at the expense of men, women and children, and at the expense all values. My conflicts with feminism have not been about the expense of men's right but about the expense of truth. Radical feminists have their own pseudo-science, where all gender behavioral tendencies are arbitrary cultural constructs and where rape is psychologically motivated by the desire for power and not the desire for sex. Since the doctrines conflict with probability, both women and men bear the expense.

 

[judowrestler1]

Video games are an example- a reflection of the sexism in society. Concerning child custody cases, there is something very wrong with our culture that needs to be addressed in addition to balancing that particular scale. Humans do not naturally pair bond for life(read Sex at Dawn)- the fact that the concept of marriage exists is a bastardization of our natures. We're supposed to be in large, polyamorous communities, where we have a strong network of people to help raise children. Restore that, and "custody" is largely irrelevant.



Holy shit, no they're not. Pay special attention to the intent behind the objectification. With relatively few examples to the contrary, women are exaggerated and presented as objects to be rescued, acquired, and to fuck. Men are exaggerated with the intent that you'd want to be them. There are thousands of examples of this in action (many highlighted by the videos I mentioned). The women in all these examples are rendered powerless, while the men are presented as heroic and capable. There are mercifully some examples of strong female characters, like Lara Croft in the recent Tomb Raider reboot, but they are few and far between.

There are many monetary issues that could be brought up here, but since I think money should be eliminated altogether, as a concept, I lack the interest to bicker about the details of monetary and business inequality.

See unfortunately your idealistic world does not change the fact that men are losing custody of their children. Arguing that in an ideal world things wouldn't be a problem doesn't change the fact they are in the real world.

And men are just as pressured. Look at every magazine cover featuring a man he is either rich and powerful, a famous athlete, or in extremely good shape. The exact same way women are objectified in the media. The issue is the media promotes unfair stereotypes of both genders, its just feminist make the most noise about their finger pointing at men when the real target should be the media.

And, I'm not trying to be an asshole in this. Men and women should be equal and there is definitely inequality on both sides. But, pretending that women are the only victims is a lie.

 

[Goku]

^thinks that feminism is not needed because women have voting rights; resorts to a typical sexist ad-hom upon being informed that it's pointless to discuss the question with someone who doesn't even see the sexism that is everywhere in plain sight nor how women are discriminated against in a plethora of ways.

And feminism is about more than women in general, there are tons of people who do not fit into their socially expected roles and who suffer under cissexual assumptions and ignorance, be a man and ephemate? You're gay. Cut your hair short as a girl and be straightforward? Lesbian.

srsly goku, do your homework and then come back, no actually do your homework and then fuck off

Noting some popular feminist movements: starting with women's suffrage, then liberation, black feminism, anti-porn.

I think you are a "third wave" feminist looking for a cause to fight for. My point is that all the most egregious evils seemed to have been tackled.

Spoiler

THIRD-WAVE FEMINISM

When the media takes a moment off from ponderously declaring feminism dead or irrelevant to have a look around at contemporary feminists, all it seems to find are third-wavers: If you're under 40 and you're a feminist, then you're a third-wave feminist—regardless of your politics.

While the first wave of feminism (the campaign for women's suffrage) spanned some 150 years, the second wave was allotted less than a quarter-century before being declared "over" by the mainstream media, most notably by Time's 1989 cover story (careful readers will note that this one was a full nine years before their even more infamous 1998 "Is Feminism Dead?" cover). Thus, in 1989, when NOW president Patricia Ireland declared that, in response to increasing federal and state restrictions on abortion, a "third wave is coming," she was acknowledging both the effect of the decade-long backlash (soon to be limned by Susan Faludi in her 1991 book of the same name) in dampening the public face of feminism and the growing activism by young, college-age women. In 1992, Rebecca Walker and Shannon Liss formed the Third Wave Direct Action Corporation (which became the Third Wave Foundation) to mobilize young people—especially young women—to become politically active; its commitment to a multiracial, multigender, and multiclass organizing effort is a hallmark of the best of third-wave activism.

The third-wave moniker has been applied to folks with a huge range of political beliefs, from the in-your-face, punk-rock tactics of riot grrrls to Naomi Wolf's Beauty Myth/Fire with Fire power feminism4 to Jennifer Baum*gardner and Amy Richards's feminism-is-for-everybody activism to Bust's (and Bitch's) media-savvy 18-to-34-year-old demographic. From its first utterance, the notion of a third wave has generated controversy and concern that both the media and young women were (and are), in their own ways, flattening the powerful complexities and nuances of second-wave feminism into a man-hating, anti-lipstick stereotype, and setting up a generational antagonism.5

Today, "third-wave feminism" is often used to describe a kind of companionable, man-friendly, pro-sex, pro–femininity-if-you-want-it feminism that reflects the successes of the second wave's struggle for equal footing. Although third-wave feminists are engaged in a wide variety of grassroots political organizing (from voter-registration drives to campaigns to save abortion rights), much of the ink spilled on the third wave from both the mainstream press and feminist anthologies paints a picture of a generation that is more interested in self-determination and individual decisions than in understanding the political impact of them.

http://bitchmagazine.org/article/everything-about-feminism-you-wanted-to-know-but-were-afraid-to-ask

You mention again the "plethora" of ways that women are discriminated against (or "persecuted" from previous posts), yet you still fail to mention 1 or 2 main causes which we can discuss.

Please excuse my ignorant demeanor as I never meant to dismiss any of your feelings, if you yourself had/have been discriminated against, it's just that, during the course of my normal life, I never once heard a female complain about being discriminated against, to the degree of magnitude you're making it out to be.

I've heard of cases of sexual harassment in the workplace. The world definitely isn't like it was in Mad Men, where a guy could just slap a secretary's ass and she would take it as a compliment. Yet I agree the world isn't perfect for women. However it doesn't seem bad enough to require an entire movement.

 

[Cherry Cola]

I don't want to discuss the topic because it's pointless, there's been a few discussions on it and they've sucked. I remember the Anita Sarkeesian thread, went on forever arguing against people so clueless about the subject it was laughable, they referenced friggin amazing atheist who doesn't even know the terminology required for discussion.

Every now and then threads like this one pop up and every time there's a bunch of guys who fail to see what's going on all around them and insist on picking a bone with feminism due to some imaginary attack against them as "men" they perceive which does not exists other than from the side of radical feminists which do not constitute a substantial part of the movement itself anyway. In fact most movements have radical elements.

I know this sounds terribly arrogant, sorry about that.

 

[Ink]

Proof that feminism is a joke:

Here are the effects of feminism on men and women

and

Here's a LIVE webcam debate against a feminist.

I don't want to discuss the topic because it's pointless, there's been a few discussions on it and they've sucked. I remember the Anita Sarkeesian thread, went on forever arguing against people so clueless about the subject it was laughable, they referenced friggin amazing atheist who doesn't even know the terminology required for discussion.

Every now and then threads like this one pop up and every time there's a bunch of guys who fail to see what's going on all around them and insist on picking a bone with feminism due to some imaginary attack against them as "men" they perceive which does not exists other than from the side of radical feminists which do not constitute a substantial part of the movement itself anyway. In fact most movements have radical elements.

I know this sounds terribly arrogant, sorry about that.

PLEASE have a debate with this guy

 

[Goku]

I don't want to discuss the topic because it's pointless, there's been a few discussions on it and they've sucked. I remember the Anita Sarkeesian thread, went on forever arguing against people so clueless about the subject it was laughable, they referenced friggin amazing atheist who doesn't even know the terminology required for discussion.

Every now and then threads like this one pop up and every time there's a bunch of guys who fail to see what's going on all around them and insist on picking a bone with feminism due to some imaginary attack against them as "men" they perceive which does not exists other than from the side of radical feminists which do not constitute a substantial part of the movement itself anyway. In fact most movements have radical elements.

I know this sounds terribly arrogant, sorry about that.

I never perceived it as an attack. That may be worth discussing.

 

[Amagi82]

See unfortunately your idealistic world does not change the fact that men are losing custody of their children. Arguing that in an ideal world things wouldn't be a problem doesn't change the fact they are in the real world.

And men are just as pressured. Look at every magazine cover featuring a man he is either rich and powerful, a famous athlete, or in extremely good shape. The exact same way women are objectified in the media. The issue is the media promotes unfair stereotypes of both genders, its just feminist make the most noise about their finger pointing at men when the real target should be the media.

And, I'm not trying to be an asshole in this. Men and women should be equal and there is definitely inequality on both sides. But, pretending that women are the only victims is a lie.

I'll refrain from arguing further about custody cases, because to be honest, I don't care. Whatever slight opinion I have about the current setup is close enough to being aligned with yours- equality should be had.

You'll get no argument from me that men are portrayed in harmful ways (which I discussed earlier in this very thread), and that should definitely be addressed. This is, however, unrelated to and/or congruous with the feminist movement. Feminism is all about equality, and treating men in a respectful and loving manner goes hand in hand with that. There's no arguing that things are worse for women, however. That's why you get so many vocal feminists. I'm all about there being an equivalent men's movement for equality, as long as it works in harmony with, not in opposition to, the feminist movement. Most of the mens' rights campaigns I've seen tend to be douchey jackasses trying to undo everything good feminists have accomplished, whilst ignoring the many horrific things our society does to men, like encouraging them to be murdering psychopaths in the military, or creating a massive social stigma against homosexuality.

 

[Amagi82]

I don't want to discuss the topic because it's pointless, there's been a few discussions on it and they've sucked. I remember the Anita Sarkeesian thread, went on forever arguing against people so clueless about the subject it was laughable, they referenced friggin amazing atheist who doesn't even know the terminology required for discussion.

Every now and then threads like this one pop up and every time there's a bunch of guys who fail to see what's going on all around them and insist on picking a bone with feminism due to some imaginary attack against them as "men" they perceive which does not exists other than from the side of radical feminists which do not constitute a substantial part of the movement itself anyway. In fact most movements have radical elements.

I know this sounds terribly arrogant, sorry about that.

For what it's worth, I'm sorry you have to deal with so many ignorant, sexist males in these forums, as well as the world around us. A ridiculous number of men have bought into this idea that feminism is somehow an attack on anyone with a penis. And, truth be told, I do think the term "feminist" is unfortunate in that it's gender-specific, when the truth is, what we want is for everyone to be treated respectfully as equals.


Also, hoooollly shit, anyone who thinks of feminists as anti-porn, anti-male "butch lesbians" has never met anyone from the sex-positive feminist crowd. For the first time in my life, I'm getting more sex than I want or can practically keep up with. Polyamory is a wonderful thing.

 

[Ex-User (9062)]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9XDb0nxSO4

 

[Cherry Cola]

Because there's more to people than being nice? The typical nice guys who whine about women dating douches are boring nerds who lack social skills because they haven't practiced them outside their own clique group.

And here's a video highlighting that there's more too equality than your rights in a legal sense:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4UWxlVvT1A

 

[RaBind]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4UWxlVvT1A

That's actually a nice concept, but impossible/highly difficult to get accurate. Obviously pros/cons of being male/female would have to be illustrated, and that would be quite an extensive task. Or alternatively imagination could be used to switch the two roles around. My imagination isn't good enough for me to build coherent alternative world in my head though. It would definitely be easy and pretty interesting to see something similar used with statistics, though it might just end of with people being dumbfounded by the numbers.

 

[Grayman]

are [/I]worse for women, however. That's why you get so many vocal feminists

Things are worse for men when it come to prostate and yet breast cancer is more advertised and funded. Women are more vocal and helped more often. Men are less likely to complain or seek out help. Being vocal does not prove that women have it worse.

 

[BrainVessel]

I'm for the version of feminism that supports overall equality but is called feminism because it agrees that women are oppressed moreso.

Nah...

MATRIARCHY.

But really, if you're not a feminist in the way I originally stated you are ignorant to the issues, sexist, or a fetish/religion(are they the same thing? ahah) is keeping you from seeing why it's a real problem.
Gender discrimination is everywhere, we need to examine what we tolerate.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

A lady walks through NYC, U.S. and gets constant cat calls, even a few stalkers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1XGPvbWn0A

Is there a problem? If there is, what is it? How many women experience this daily, weekly, etc? Where is the line drawn in approaching others?


I would say she's visibly attractive so that is a factor to consider. I'm also willing to say at least one of those guys went too far, I personally thought he was going to attack her by how close he was and his body language.

 

[Brontosaurie]

what harrassment? lol

yes i'm a man and i have the privilege of not receiving overt appreciation for my incredible beauty so i guess i just don't get it and never will

meanwhile elsewhere cunts are being ripped off and turned into gloves, hats and shoes but nevermind, that's just Other Cultures - thing is someone greeted me on the streets wtf?

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

what harrassment? lol

yes i'm a man and i have the privilege of not receiving overt appreciation for my incredible beauty so i guess i just don't get it and never will

meanwhile elsewhere cunts are being ripped off and turned into gloves, hats and shoes but nevermind - someone said hello on the streets wtf?

Doesn't this irritate you?
I'd start using a car if everyday a bunch of people wanted to shit talk me on the street, or maybe I'd use earphones for noise blocking.

You could get used to this, but there is still a fact of a bunch of fags following you or turning their attention to your physical appearance, something you don't necessarily want to achieve.

 

[Brontosaurie]

Doesn't this irritate you?
I'd start using a car if everyday a bunch of people wanted to shit talk me on the street, or maybe I'd use earphones for noise blocking.

well if empowerment is what she wants she need not look any further. those men aren't exercising patriarchal powers - they're desperate little jokes with nothing to lose, making futile knee-jerk attempts at contact, completely cool with their subordination in the sex game. mosquitos do more harrassing.

she just thinks they're disgusting filth, perhaps rightly so. dno why she would be so ashamed of that opinion as to cloak it in a dignified struggle of equality, thereby pissing on the actual poor. oh wait, simple attention booster. still insincere. she can do better.

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

she just thinks they're disgusting filth, perhaps rightly so. dno why she would be so ashamed of that opinion as to cloak it in a dignified struggle of equality, thereby pissing on the actual poor. oh wait, simple attention booster. still insincere. she can do better.

Yes, I disagree with the whole background that goes on, branding as filth etc.

It's nothing too big, and not something to change since it's public space she appears in.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

what harrassment? lol

yes i'm a man and i have the privilege of not receiving overt appreciation for my incredible beauty so i guess i just don't get it and never will

meanwhile elsewhere cunts are being ripped off and turned into gloves, hats and shoes but nevermind, that's just Other Cultures - thing is someone greeted me on the streets wtf?

well if empowerment is what she wants she need not look any further. those men aren't exercising patriarchal powers - they're desperate little jokes with nothing to lose, making futile knee-jerk attempts at contact, completely cool with their subordination in the sex game. mosquitos do more harrassing.

she just thinks they're disgusting filth, perhaps rightly so. dno why she would be so ashamed of that opinion as to cloak it in a dignified struggle of equality, thereby pissing on the actual poor. oh wait, simple attention booster. still insincere. she can do better.

You could get used to this, but there is still a fact of a bunch of fags following you or turning their attention to your physical appearance, something you don't necessarily want to achieve.

I thought it was interesting that each guy might not see himself doling out harassment, I mean I personally wouldn't consider one or two times to be harassment, but altogether from the perspective of the person being talked at by multiple people, and even stalked, it's a different experience.

Whatever you want to call it, however you want to see it, the question is does this behavior have a real measurable impact and overall consequences? Cat calling has been a part of urban/inner city culture since the mid 20th century I believe, perhaps even before that. Some might see it as normal, others alarming.

Doesn't this irritate you?
I'd start using a car if everyday a bunch of people wanted to shit talk me on the street, or maybe I'd use earphones for noise blocking.

I believe there's a saying that, people don't drive in NYC because there's too much traffic.

 

[The Grey Man]

Feminism eh? Well, trying to bring about conditions under which both men and women are legally equal and not the object of gender harassment/violence is all well and good. The problem, for me, is encountered when we see that individuals have varying ideas of what "gender equality" actually is, and how it should be accomplished.

For example: I do not believe that gender equality means that one group of females' sensibilities are more important than the freedom of thought and expression. Obviously, those calling for laws to regulate media simply because they don't like the way it depicts women disagree.

Another example, I don't believe that discrimination should have a place in our society if it is to be free of discrimination. This may seem obvious, but proponents of "affirmative action" either don't get it, or don't give a damn about equality, as long as their group is placed in a legally advantageous position relative to the others.

 

[Cherry Cola]

well if empowerment is what she wants she need not look any further. those men aren't exercising patriarchal powers - they're desperate little jokes with nothing to lose, making futile knee-jerk attempts at contact, completely cool with their subordination in the sex game. mosquitos do more harrassing.

she just thinks they're disgusting filth, perhaps rightly so. dno why she would be so ashamed of that opinion as to cloak it in a dignified struggle of equality, thereby pissing on the actual poor. oh wait, simple attention booster. still insincere. she can do better.

Because she's walking down crowded streets in broad daylight.

 

[Fukyo]

what harrassment? lol

yes i'm a man and i have the privilege of not receiving overt appreciation for my incredible beauty so i guess i just don't get it and never will

meanwhile elsewhere cunts are being ripped off and turned into gloves, hats and shoes but nevermind, that's just Other Cultures - thing is someone greeted me on the streets wtf?

lol you jelly?

 

[Grayman]

A lady walks through NYC, U.S. and gets constant cat calls, even a few stalkers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1XGPvbWn0A

Is there a problem? If there is, what is it? How many women experience this daily, weekly, etc? Where is the line drawn in approaching others?


I would say she's visibly attractive so that is a factor to consider. I'm also willing to say at least one of those guys went too far, I personally thought he was going to attack her by how close he was and his body language.

Disgusting. I am not used to seeing this stuff on the pacific coast. I only met one guy who did stuff like that and he was also from NYC.

 

[paradoxparadigm7]

If the definition of sexual harassment is repeated unwanted sexual attention AND she didn't welcome the sexual attention, then she was sexually harassed by at least a few of the men who repeated his advancement.

So it rests within the subjective experience of the person. I don't think laws are the answer to this public place situation unlike workplace harassment where you have to be around offending individuals to do your job. She could have a legal right to get the police involved if someone kept at it like the creepy guy who walked beside her for over 5 minutes.

 

[Cherry Cola]

Well she has big boobs omg it's her own fault. Beside how dare she be offended? Those who want to be offended will always find some reason to be. I tell you as a social outcast I also face harassment which isn't fair. Therefore other things which aren't fair are not problems, like sexism.