vegetarianism / veganism versus meat eating

[walfin]

I eat meat.

I mean, I love tofu, but having to eat it to the exclusion of all other protein sources?

 

[Slacker_Assassin]

Pescetarian.
I was a vegetarian for...about six years, I think. Became one at the beginning of high school. Partly out of ethics, partly out of wanting to be the resident rebel girl.
I started eating fish toward the end of college. I'm black, and black people tend to be on the low-iron side sometimes. And I'm a woman, with each menstrual cycle I lose iron.
So, I began eating fish again.
My reasoning now is health. I do believe that society could benefit from eating less (red) meat, but don't believe meat should be taken away completely. People should have the option to eat it if they want to.
I think the issue more how divorced we are from our food. The food industrial complex is awful, for us and the animals.
Side note: Sometimes I think about going vegan. I don't get a lot of dairy in my diet anymore, but I love eggs. I think I'd rather just be vegan for a set amount time, then be pescetarian; go back and forth depending on what I felt my body needed at the time.

 

[Prog]

To say that you aet meat because not eating it would make no difference sounds strange to me, do you also not vote for a party at the elections because your vote isn't going to make a difference? If everebody thought that we democracy wouldn't work.

 

[Palaver]

I have chosen not to eat meat.


When I eat with others, I sometimes eat meals containing animal products other than meat, like eggs, dairy or honey, although that's against my conviction. I mostly do that because I don't feel self-confident enough to explain myself (which is what others expect as soon as you declare you're a vegan) and to become the centre of attention. Also, some people feel offended when you tell them you don't eat animal products, don't ask me why. I don't find socialising easy with most people, and I don't want to make it even harder for myself by making them feel offended.


I don't eat meat mainly because

• the thought of killing and cutting up an animal disgusts me. Eating meat but not being willing to prepare it is, in my view, hypocritical. I don't want to be hypocritical, hypocrisy is against my principles.
• industrial meat production, being responsible for a lot of CO2 emissions, harms the climate.
• industrial meat production, being responsible for the clearing of large parts of the rainforest so that soy and grain can be cultivated, harms the environment and the climate.
• we don't have enough water for everyone in the world. Meat production uses a lot of water.
• a lot of people die of starvation. Meat production is, in that regard, inefficient, because if you take an area of a certain size, much fewer people can be fed if you use it for the production of food for animals meant to be eaten later than if you use it for growing food for humans directly.
• I like animals.
• I don't have control over the conditions under which the animals meant to be eaten are kept.
• eating meat of certain animals only, like pigs, cows and chickens, for no obvious reasons but convention /habitude, is illogical. I'd never eat cats, though. So I don't eat other animals either.
• I'm not convinced eating meat is good for my health.
• I don't need to.
• being mainstream is boring

I'm sure I could think of more …

 

[nanook]

I've become a vegan for health reasons after learning that animal products are completely redundant, given our steady supply of plant foods, that no exotic and bland meat replacements like soja crap are necessary either, because our body can't even utilize more protein than what it would get from more typical whole plant foods and that all animal products are actually detrimental to health and to the chances of weight loss, partially due to circumstances (pollution of seas, mistreatment of animals), partially due to the culturally typical frequency of animal product consumption - I would easily become addicted to the habit of eating kebab or such, unless I say no, categorically.

I'm also aware, that animal products are not sustainable systemically, which implies that they are not ethical (I always objectify ethics by deriving it from a systemic analysis), however i can not believe that my individual consumer choices affect the market, because of subsidizations and poverty: low prices dictate what low income people (most people) 'demand', so this alone was never motivation enough for me to give up animal products.

I have explored diets, their theory and their science for years, i went through the low carb and the paleo paradigm and learned experientially that the body does not thrive on long term carb restriction, nor will he give up 100% of overweight while suffering from a fad like that, and that the underlying theories are equally incomplete and that other paradigms like the gabriel method or the vegan paradigm, for instance john mcdougalls' take on it, explain why low carb and paleo can't work for a transformation, they just make the over-weight bounce a little, temporarily.

I still experiment with individual food choices, but i eat unprocessed whole plants, no oils or flours. I try to have some raw foods, like bananas or sprouted lentils. I try to minimize acidity.

I used to have issues with inappropriate insulin response and crazy hunger right after eating things, but learned that those issues only occur in the context of mixing okay plant based foods with bad foods, like oils or animal products or gluten or when using processed foods like any type of baked flour. no amount of clean bananas or potatoes or whatever will give me a sugar crash or inappropriate hunger, on a whole plant diet. so, low carb is entirely redundant, when fighting that chronic high insulin situation which marks weight issues, it's just a dysfunctional work-around for not giving up the causes of these insulin issues (animal products and processed oils, flours and sugars).

 

[Pinion]

1. Are you a vegetarian / vegan, or do you eat meat?

I'm a vegetarian eating very little when it comes to other animal products. It's in the early stages.

2. What are your reasons to support whichever one you are?

I felt silly arguing against forms of animal cruelty such as puppy mills while eating a cheeseburger made with meat that came from conditions just as bad or worse. Eventually I was very conscious of it in the back of my mind every time someone talked to me about animals (especially animal welfare) or I dumped some ground beef in a pan, and it felt like a nagging secret I was trying to keep from myself.

Irritation at the ideas of there being no real alternative (a diet without will make you sick, a diet without is gross and boring, we don't have any choice so just ignore it, etc) sealed the deal.

To say that you aet meat because not eating it would make no difference sounds strange to me, do you also not vote for a party at the elections because your vote isn't going to make a difference? If everebody thought that we democracy wouldn't work.

It's kind of depressing for me to think about how small of a difference I make personally, but I hope that the combined effort amounts to something that can put a dent in my moral issue. Even if it's just making it publicly well-known that you can leave it out and still be well-fed and enjoy food, and making the change easier and more desirable.

 

[Deep_in_thought]

I eat a LOT of meat, and at times...rarely any fruits or vegetables. My diet consists of mostly water, meat, starch, and sugar. Sometimes I'll eat fruits and veggies...though mostly strawberries, watermelons, oranges...sweet tasting foods. Vegetables, steamed broccoli. Despite my..crude sounding diet, I haven't been sick in over 6 years. I haven't had the flu, or even something as miniscule as a cold in that time frame either. My last blood test showed I was healthy, with no problems (with a clean liver from green tea). I tried eating mostly fruits and veggies once...I had very bad stomach cramps, my body either isn't designed for or used to a high consumption of non-meaty and starch foods. I'm not sure what these doctors are saying that a lot of meat is bad for you, I've eaten it mostly for a long long time, no health side effects have come about.

 

[Happy]

I eat meat. I eat it because it's tasty.
I eat only organic free range meat - preferably local. Because it's tastier.

I eat vegetables with my meat. Because they're tasty.
I grow my vegetables. Because they're tastier.

And that is my philosophy on the foods I eat. No ethical basis or any fluff like that, just because I like it and I can.
You also can't buy half the stuff I grow in stores anyway.

On a side note, I don't discriminate people's food choices. But when a vegan tries to shove their beliefs down my throat, I treat them the same way I treat a religious nut throwing their faith at me. Not pleasantly.

That said, I have a lot of respect for veganism for health purposes.

 

[Cherry Cola]

Why call ethically based choices fluff just because they have to do with food? You wouldn't call it fluff if it had to do with other things.

 

[Latte]

The amount of displays of naturalistic fallacy, erroneous generalization of demographics, unsubstantiated beliefs regarding nutrition and ethical logic inconsistencies in this thread is around what is to be expected.

I urge anyone who has even the creeping suspicion that they might have erred in one of these ways to do extensive research and/or inspect their own belief structures for weak or illusionary pillars.

@Happy:
Axiom: One would not get in trouble for it.
If you would kill or order the death of any human who you don't personally know and who you don't benefit from being alive if the human tastes good enough for you to make the same choice in regards to vegetables and the musculature non-human mammals, then your philosophy of eating what is tasty that you have access to is the philosophy you follow.

If not, then you are lying to yourself or wrongly representing yourself.

 

[Happy]

Why call ethically based choices fluff just because they have to do with food? You wouldn't call it fluff if it had to do with other things.

It was a poor choice of words. I respect ethically based choices.

@Happy:
Axiom: One would not get in trouble for it.
If you would kill or order the death of any human who you don't personally know and who you don't benefit from being alive if the human tastes good enough for you to make the same choice in regards to vegetables and the musculature non-human mammals, then your philosophy of eating what is tasty that you have access to is the philosophy you follow.

If not, then you are lying to yourself or wrongly representing yourself.

I don't think this relates to eating an anonymous human at all.

To be honest, if my experiences had been any different, I'd probably be eating only vegetables, fruits, nuts, etc. The thing is I'm completely desensitised to the argument of 'killing or ordering the death of' the food I eat. I spent a year working in slaughter. It tends to make one indifferent on the topic.

I do have some ethics in relation to food. I was just in a pissy mood last night at 4am when I wrote that. First and foremost I eat meat because it's delicious and available, but I do source only the highest quality stuff because it is better, but also I like to be sure that what I'm eating hasn't been tortured. I'm also concerned with environmental aspects.

I'm not ignorant to what happens. I've seen and taken part in it more than most people. It's just not going to make me stop. If a better product is available, I'll get that - but if not, I'll settle.

 

[Latte]

Being willing to eat an anonymous human was an implication of your initially stated system of deciding what to eat or not do eat (I had my logic frustration hat on earlier).

What you describe now isn't compatible with eating humans, though, of course ~

Thanks for sharing more deeply and reality-congruently about how you are in regards to this, it is interesting :3

You also come off as an entirely different person now.

 

[Happy]

Just like you had your logic frustration hat on earlier, I had my arrogant twat hat on last night. My bad.

Also, one thing I won't budge on is I refuse to eat cage eggs.

 

[Polaris]

I find this really difficult, but it shouldn't be, really.

Since learning about what animals go through for the purposes of satisfying our obsession with eating meat, I have been in serious conflict with my own behaviour. The environmental impacts are also colossal.

I have never eaten much meat since it seems to disagree with me...but I buy the occasional steak or sausages. The problem with buying stuff in my local supermarket is that you cannot trace where everything came from and how it was treated.

I read packages that say "free-range chicken" but there is no trustworthy certification, only take the producer's own word for it. So I don't buy it. Hence, my chicken-eating days are over since discovering the characteristic bruising of the joints of chickens that have been subject to hormone-treatment and are consequently unable to stand upright under the weight of their too-fast growing bodies. This is due to their bones not having the sufficient time to reach the density required to hold their own weight. I picked up a "free-range, organic" chicken like this, and was quite angry at the blatant deception. I took the chicken back to the supermarket and told them why. They thought I was crazy.

I have found some local produce that is guaranteed free-range and hormone-free, but I'm restricted by being able to shop there only at certain times of the week.

Supermarkeds here in Australia have now begun to introduce their own home-brands, and these are similarly labelled and packaged to their other-brand counterparts. I picked up a packet of rice-crackers absent-mindedly, got home and realised I'd grabbed a home-brand looking almost identical to the brand I prefer. The contents labelling has also become more obscure. I have nothing against buying a supermarked home-brand if the quality was as good as their counterparts, but often it isn't. I don't support Australian-made unless the quality is superior to their overseas brands either. Why support local if the product is inferior and produced under non-controlled guidelines with deceptive labels?

I have gone for weeks without eating meat and I don't miss it. It is the odd occasion where I crave it..and then the frustration of finding meat that isn't tortured somehow.

 

[ℜεмїηїs¢εη¢ε]

1. I'm a high-carb vegan. I basically only eat fruits and starches like potatoes and rice. My definition of fruit includes tomatoes, cucumbers, and bell peppers. I try to get as much organic foods as I can and eat everything plain (condiments as a rule are usually harmful) and unwashed (for the b12).

2. I feel a lot more energetic. My digestion is better. I lost 15 pounds. It feels good to not contribute to animal cruelty. My emotional state improved quite a bit, I don't feel so depressed anymore. It feels good to indulge in as much food as I want and stay slim. I make it a goal for myself to eat at least 3000 calories a day; no calorie restricting for me. It's impossible to gain weight on this diet long term unless it's in muscle. It's basically one of the best things that ever happened to me so, yeah. Try it, it's fucking awesome.

 

[volitionfree]

The idea that we need dietary protein has long roots tracing back to the history of money. But that's another story.

Can you please tell that story or give me some links to spark inquiry

 

[rushgirl2112]

1. I eat meat.
2. Because it's a source of protein I enjoy.

Could I live without it? Sure. But life would be pretty unbearable if we were only allowed to have things that are necessary, or that adhered to everyone else's moral code.

People need to keep their noses on their own plates.

 

[Minuend]

^ somehow I doubt most carnivores would keep silent if someone threw a human leg and some fetus on their plate.

 

[Cavallier]

That a vegetarian needs to be boring and bland is a myth. It's just that our food culture has been built around meat being the star of all dishes for a long time.
...

For instance veg-burgers tend to be dry and tasteless, devoid of any umami for the taste receptors to send signals instilling the qualic marvel that even a boring McDonald's patty can.

Right. I think that food and comfort and memory are all linked. Smell as a sense is closely linked to memory after all and smell is an imoprtant aspect of food/taste. People who grew up eating things with meat in it are going to have a had time cutting themselves off from those dishes. If you change the dishes to exclude meat it's not the same and the dish loses its significance. I can see how it is hard for some to let go of their desire for meat.

Instead of replacing meat in dishes I have worked on finding enjoyable vegetarian dishes that were never meant to have meat in them. I have made a concerted effort over the last year to eat more vegetables. This tactic has worked well for me.

Now, am I the only one in this thread that has killed an animal with her bare hands, butchered it, and then eaten it? My mother bought a turkey from a friend when I was in high school. The friend raises them on his farm humanely. He usually raises 3 or 4 of them after saving one for himself. He delivered ours in a dog kennel left in our driveway early one morning.

When my mother and I discovered it we decided to kill it and butcher it ourselves. It was an intense experience. I had up to that time in my life never killed anything larger than a mouse. I was thoroughly shaken up after the experience. I was covered in blood, shit, and feathers. I plucked it clean and gutted it. I then helped my mother cook it and serve it with dinner that evening.

I think it is an experience that a lot of people would benefit from. You don't take eating meat lightly after doing something like that. Of course, I can say that because I've grown up in a world where death isn't something I see every day. I suppose if I was deadened to it I would not have been affected by killing a Turkey. My mother certainly was. She grew up in rural Alaska. She hunted with her father when she was kid. She used to snap the wounded rabbit's neck when her father missed his shot.

These days, I try to eat less meat and I think that someday I'll only be eating the chickens I raise myself and their eggs.

 

[rushgirl2112]

^ somehow I doubt most carnivores would keep silent if someone threw a human leg and some fetus on their plate.

Well, like it or not, animals do not have the same legal rights as human beings. Of course, you can try to change the law. I believe that any law should be challenged periodically. Of course, I'll be on the opposing side, but hey, everyone has a right to have their voice heard. I can respect that.

In the meantime, you're obviously free to believe that animals and people are equivalent even if the law isn't on your side. I have many reasons for rejecting that argument, but going through them in depth is going to be fruitless.

I guess you could say that when it comes to food, I'm pro-choice. You eat what you want, I'll eat what I want. That's the great thing about living in a free society. You're free to think I'm a murderer, and I'm free to think the things I think about people who make such accusations, which out of respect I'm not going into.

 

[redbaron]

I don't think Minuend was referring to the legal rights of animals at all, and that the consumption of meat is a lot more complicated than the basic morality of, 'it's wrong to eat meat'.

 

[nanook]

speaking of alaska, cavallier, i saw those dokus 'alone in the wilderness' 'the frozen north' 'silence and solitude' about this one guy who lived there alone and filmed it and he appeared to have tons of respect for life and would only kill one big old animal per year and a few fishes, just a safety reserve to get through the winter. through out history people would not eat more meat than what was necessary for their lifestyle. for instance nomads may have needed more dried compact stuff, even in summer. then the lifestyle of decadence was invented and meat and being fat and having pale skin became a status symbol. we have already reconsidered the aesthetics of fat and paleness. there is hope.

 

[Minuend]

Well, like it or not, animals do not have the same legal rights as human beings. Of course, you can try to change the law. I believe that any law should be challenged periodically. Of course, I'll be on the opposing side, but hey, everyone has a right to have their voice heard. I can respect that.

In the meantime, you're obviously free to believe that animals and people are equivalent even if the law isn't on your side. I have many reasons for rejecting that argument, but going through them in depth is going to be fruitless.

I guess you could say that when it comes to food, I'm pro-choice. You eat what you want, I'll eat what I want. That's the great thing about living in a free society. You're free to think I'm a murderer, and I'm free to think the things I think about people who make such accusations, which out of respect I'm not going into.

That's 3 paragraphs of assumed opinions and attitudes of which none are in my possession. I can understand how vegetarians get a bad rep if a lot of people make such huge assumptions from so little information.

I'm not saying animals should have the same legal rights.
I'm fine with people eating meat.
I haven't even claimed I'm a vegetarian.

I'm saying that if everyone were to "keep their nose on their own plate", I could eat a human leg and you would not be allowed to protest because what I eat is my business.

We don't actually "eat what we want". Food in supermarkets in most countries are regulated. If there were no such regulations, people would be eating food with high levels of pesticide, antibiotics, dirt. This is an example of why it is a good thing that someone pokes their nose in the food we eat.

I think you should read the reasons people are vegetarian in this thread. Nobody is making claims like "animals are equal to humans and should have the same rights". Their basis is more fundamentally strong.

I think this is one major issue that future generations will judge us on. Teachers will have to explain to kids why we thought it was ethical to raise pigs in small boxes just to slaughter them, not because we were in need of food but because of human ignorance and greed. Slaughtering cute dogs the same way would cause an outrage, while there is absolutely no difference morally between killing a dog and a pig.

The moment we accept that it is possible to live a healthy and rich life without meat, we also accept that we kill other animals for pure pleasure. We can choose to keep a blind eye to this, which I am not proud to admit I currently am, but then we also just have to accept that we are being willfully ignorant.

I have the same thoughts.

It's like if they receive a dish with meat in it - the animal is already slain and used, whether they eat it or not has no bearing on the matter on any scale. Yet they still refuse to eat it and act like a pompous turd.

If I have understood correctly, after being without meat for an extensive period of time, meat can actually make your stomach protest very uncomfortably. And some are just disgusted by eating meat.

@rattymat

In principle I agree. Maybe even in practice. My major concern is that I have seen the amount of meat thrown away by my local supermarket. All of that meat that is un-eaten equates to animals being needlessly slaughtered. If they are going to die I'd prefer they die for a purpose (food, leather, etc).

Supermarkets order meat based on how much they sell. So it does make a difference. You could just as well argue that they throw away a lot of vegetables so you should buy more vegetables instead of meat to prevent that from happening.

 

[ℜεмїηїs¢εη¢ε]

If I have understood correctly, after being without meat for an extensive period of time, meat can actually make your stomach protest very uncomfortably. And some are just disgusted by eating meat.

This.

 

[ℜεмїηїs¢εη¢ε]

It's like if they receive a dish with meat in it - the animal is already slain and used, whether they eat it or not has no bearing on the matter on any scale. Yet they still refuse to eat it and act like a pompous turd.

If I have understood correctly, after being without meat for an extensive period of time, meat can actually make your stomach protest very uncomfortably. And some are just disgusted by eating meat.

^
This.

I actually never liked meat since I was a young child. Whenever my mother made meat I always hid it under the sofa (it wasn't a very good hiding place, I know). Over time, societal pressures finally got me to force myself to eat it and I gradually grew numb to my body's signal that I shouldn't be eating it. A couple of months ago I started to do a certain kind of meditation and I became hyper aware of my body's sensations. I soon became aware that animal products made me feel worse when and shorty after I ate them and fruits/vegetables made me feel better. I stopped eating animal products right away but I ate a lot of junk food at first. It was really only like 40 some days ago that I actually started eating lots of fruit/veg. In that short period of time, my whole taste/smell for what is edible has changed drastically. Whenever my parents cook meat, I literally can't be in the kitchen. It smells that bad. If someone were to give me meat then I would explain why I do not want it. If someone were to get offended, then it's their problem.

 

[not]

I eat meat.

I evolved to eat meat, and I am an omnivore. This is my place in nature as a human. It would be wrong, I think, to deprive my body of what it was built to eat. For health's sake I eat a balanced diet.

Not all people evolved the same way and their are studies that prove that different blood types react to eating meat vs veggies differently. In your specific case, you are probably correct in your personal assessment.

 

[Grayman]

I have couple simple questions to ask as I would like to discuss this topic.

1. Are you a vegetarian / vegan, or do you eat meat?
2. What are your reasons to support whichever one you are?

That's it.

I'd appreciate all responses.

(I was not sure which sub-forum to post in, as neither of them seemed that suiting, but I suppose it could be a matter of life philosophies / ideologies?)
​

I eat any food because it is healthier to have variety.

 

[helloworld]

^
This.

I actually never liked meat since I was a young child. Whenever my mother made meat I always hid it under the sofa (it wasn't a very good hiding place, I know). Over time, societal pressures finally got me to force myself to eat it and I gradually grew numb to my body's signal that I shouldn't be eating it. A couple of months ago I started to do a certain kind of meditation and I became hyper aware of my body's sensations.

I'm curious to know the specific kind of meditation you were doing :-) I'm personally into body/mind techniques. I don't mind a pm if you can't post it here.