Tolkiological problems

[Sugarpop]

My faith has been disturbed by some fundamental questions recently.

Firstly, how do ents propagate? I suppose that ents and entwives must perform some kind of act. It would also seem like they are monogamous, considering treebeard's longing for a specific wife. This would seem to exclude the usual propagation by pollen.

The eagles are obviously helpful creatures that assist the free people on occasion. Why couldn't they just have flown Frodo to mt. Doom where he could have dropped the ring? Like this. One could make the argument that the Nazgul would have intervened in the air, but it's still a vastly safer option than what was actually done, especially with a complementary ground attack on Mordor as a distraction.

 

[Artifice Orisit]

It would also seem like they are monogamous, considering treebeard's longing for a specific wife. This would seem to exclude the usual propagation by pollen.

I'm sorely tempted to make some awful puns.

The eagles are obviously helpful creatures that assist the free people on occasion. Why couldn't they just have flown Frodo to mt. Doom where he could have dropped the ring? Like this.

1. The ring has a corrupting affect and eagles are literally bird-brains.
2. I'm pretty sure the big glowing eye could summon up some pretty nasty magical air-to-air defences, after all the eagles only went to mt. Doom after he had fallen, so I think it's pretty safe to assume Mordor was an absolutely no fly zone. Better to risk the fate of the world on some sort of half-assed hair-brained scheme then a plan that was certain to fail.

 

[Sugarpop]

1. The ring has a corrupting affect and eagles are literally bird-brains.
2. I'm pretty sure the big glowing eye could summon up some pretty nasty magical air-to-air defences, after all the eagles only went to mt. Doom after he had fallen, so I think it's pretty safe to assume Mordor was an absolutely no fly zone. Better to risk the fate of the world on some sort of half-assed hair-brained scheme then a plan that was certain to fail.

Frodo would be holding the ring. Besides, if you have a distraction and enough birds, you could probably do it. Have Aragorn flaunt his royalty in front of the gate. Can the Eye see through the stormclouds of Mordor? You could also probably have the non-Saruman wizards conjure up some kind of protective field.

Besides, I think the eagles were featured in the final battle even before the ring was destroyed.

 

[Jordan~]

Tolkien was writing a legend. Legends are always full of holes, like watering cans and seives. Unlike watering cans and seives, they're no good for gardening or preparing pasta.

 

[Anthile]

A wizard did it. Seriously, it's allegorical fantasy. If no explanation is provided it probably doesn't need one. I'm afraid you are wasting your time here.

 

[Vegard Pompey]

A wizard did it. Seriously, it's allegorical fantasy. If no explanation is provided it probably doesn't need one. I'm afraid you are wasting your time here.

Actually, Tolkien himself claimed that there was no allegory or symbolism in his story, at least not any intentional such.

 

[Sugarpop]

I just googled ent + sex. No relevant results. Could there be exceptions to rule 34?

Tolkien was writing a legend. Legends are always full of holes, like watering cans and seives. Unlike watering cans and seives, they're no good for gardening or preparing pasta.

Oh come on. That's like saying the Bible isn't historically accurate.

 

[Jordan~]

It's certainly no good for preparing pasta.

 

[Sugarpop]

If your costumers aren't too picky, you can make pasta out of it.

 

[Jordan~]

I'll remember that for the next time I need to buy a costume. Barter with Bible-pasta.

 

[Sugarpop]

You can also make costumes, customers and customs out of the Bible.

http://media.photobucket.com/image/bible costume/laurgentry/GentryBibleCostume.jpg

 

[Claverhouse]

I just googled ent + sex. No relevant results. Could there be exceptions to rule 34?

I can't believe there is no groups.yahoo.com/alt.ent-porn-enthusiasts dealing with such an obsession... Where is the enterprise that makes America the leading provider of adult entertainment ?



In answer to the original question, they enter branches into boles. After a year or so an entrapped acorn emerges from the entwined entanglement which protects it from the entomofauna and is immediately planted by the mother-tree.





Claverhouse

 

[Lithorn]

Ok, as a massive Tolkien fan, I feel the need to address several things.
1. Ent sex: As described by Tolkien, Ents are not actually plants. They have simply lived in the forests so long that they've eventually become covered in a tough, bark-like coating. They blend in with the trees. They are not trees themselves. Is this biologically feasible? Probably not. But it's called magic, a quite common occurrence in fantasy fiction. Middle Earth does not run according to the scientific laws which apply to this world. They do not pollinate. Though the issue is not specifically addressed, one must assume that they procreate in a matter similar to other warm-blooded bipeds.

2. The Eagles: While they are one of the sentient species of Middle Earth, they are in no way part of the human/humanoid community. Like the ents, they tent to be pretty isolationist. One does not go around asking them for favors. While I can't remember the specific spot in the book right now, I'm pretty sure that the eagles made a speech along the lines of "Gandalf, you've used up your last favor from us. We're staying out of your buisness from now on you nasty troublemaker". Yes, the fate of the world hangs in the balance so obviously they're being stupid, but that's one of the things that's so realistic about Tolkien's world-building. People are uncooperative. Not enough information is available in a pre-mass communication universe for people to always make informed decisions. Sometimes the easiest/most logical path is not viable.

3.Allegory: Not only did Tolkien stat that LOTR is not an allegory, he also said that he personally hated allegory (a sentiment I quite agree with).

4. This post: If this post seems inordinately vehement, sorry about that. It's all in good fun

5. Mmmm....Bible pasta.... (although it does sound rather musty).

 

[Sugarpop]

Are ents warm-blooded bipeds? And why didn't Gandalf invoke some of his favors earlier? He obviously had enough favors in store to get them to fly into Mordor at the end of RotK, so why couldn't he just have made them do so earlier? It all has to be consistent or we shouldn't read it!!

 

[Lithorn]

He didn't have enough favors to get them to fly into Mordor. He used up his last favor when they rescued him from Orthanc back in the first book. The fact that they came to the battle at the end or ROTK is evidence that, like the ents, the eventually came to their senses and realized that they couldn't remain isolated forever and that the outcome of said battle really would have a direct effect on them.

 

[Saeros]

what i don't understand about the books is this: Sauron was one of the Maia, Gorthaur to be specific, he should have been able to retake human form after he was killed. Which brings up the issue of how he was killed... he died after having his finger cut off? sauron is supposed to be an immortal being, and that's all it took?

 

[Hawkeye]

It is best not to think of plot destroyers. They exist in every story yet, if they were actually executed; you'd have no story.

 

[Lithorn]

what i don't understand about the books is this: Sauron was one of the Maia, Gorthaur to be specific, he should have been able to retake human form after he was killed. Which brings up the issue of how he was killed... he died after having his finger cut off? sauron is supposed to be an immortal being, and that's all it took?

Just because he's a Maia doesn't mean he has the power to create for himself a new physical form once he's lost his. You know what a maia is, so I'll assume you're familiar with the Lay of Lethian. He couldn't grow himself a new body after Huan destroyed his werewolf form. He had to go beg Morgoth to make him a new one, implying that one requires Valar-level power to do such a thing.
As for dying when his finger was cut off, it's because the ring is the physical embodiment of all of his power, including the power of immortality. The ring has part of his soul (horcrux style if you're familiar with Harry Potter).

 

[Lithorn]

Keep 'em coming. This is fun.

 

[alkeides]

Article you might find interesting.

Assuming that the necessary thing for the Ring to melt was the temperature rather than any intrinsic magical quality associated with Mount Doom (and this seems to be implied both when Gandalf talks to Frodo about it and at the Council), why don't they find a volcano located somewhere further away from Sauron?

Of course, an actual active volcano has a temperature range of 700-1300 degrees celsius, which is well within what the technology of the setting could have achieved considering they could melt iron (melting point around 1600), which is another plothole, unless of course the Mount Doom volcano had some other factors which raised its temperature substantially higher than that.

Also, the largely barren landscapes without wildlife. Sam has a good point when he wonders what the insects eat when they don't get hobbit. The only animals besides the coneys shown in the text are either sentient or under control of someone (ponies, birds, horses, wargs), in what is supposed to be a pre-industrial world, where is all the wildlife?

Are hobbits evolved from men or did they "wake up" separately? I can't find anything on whether Tolkien was a creationist or not, but he did accept the existence of pterodactyls and the existence of previous geologic ages, so he likely believed in theistic evolution as the Catholic Church accepted. There are a few slight hints that hobbits were indeed descended from humans, maybe some of those who remained in the east originally.

Not really a fan of Tolkien nowadays, but writing a series of books just to show off your personal mythology, invented languages etc sounds fun

 

[Lithorn]

^LOLOLOLOL!!!
That just made my day Absolutely hilarious!

As for the volcano, I'm not sure I agree about it being just a temperature issue. The idea that it can only be destroyed where it was made seems to fit the mystical symmetry that pervades the Tolkien universe. Remember, geography is not just geography in Middle Earth. Each geographical icon has its own history, significance, and personality. (Also, I don't think there are any other active volcanoes in Middle Earth. If you can find a reference to one, let me know)

In terms of the lack of wildlife, I think you're just fishing now. Middle Earth has plenty of wildlife, but why mention it if it's not relevant to the characters right now? I mean, they do live an a pre-industrial world. They're not going to freak out over seeing a deer or wild turkey the way modern city-dwellers would. Besides, the only plants consistently mentioned were Aethelas and pipe-weed. That doesn't mean there aren't any other plants, does it?

Hobbits were implied to be some variety of man originally. I don't think Tolkien disputes evolution. In fact, in the "Concerning Hobbits" portion of the first book, he goes into detail about how hobbits themselves evolved into three even more distinct varieties including the Stoor (that's what Smeagol was).

 

[alkeides]

In terms of the lack of wildlife, I think you're just fishing now. Middle Earth has plenty of wildlife, but why mention it if it's not relevant to the characters right now? I mean, they do live an a pre-industrial world. They're not going to freak out over seeing a deer or wild turkey the way modern city-dwellers would. Besides, the only plants consistently mentioned were Aethelas and pipe-weed. That doesn't mean there aren't any other plants, does it?

Actually regarding animals, I was thinking more about the hunting or lack thereof. The only mention of meat seems to be from domesticated animals (bacon, other cuts of pork); I don't know if the theory of Middle-Earth being an "older" version of our Earth still holds, but assuming the area we are concerned with corresponds with Europe down to the Middle East and Northern Africa, I'd expect aurochs or some other herding animals to be around. Another sign that they never hunted or foraged for food much is Sam's statement that he never cooked before the coneys. They seemed to be eating either lembas or rations from various places (Bree, Faramir's gang) along the way, which isn't very wise IMO.

 

[Lithorn]

It's true, they probably could have stretched their rations further if they'd done some hunting/foraging along the way. They probably would have done so if say, Aragorn was still with them at that point. You have to remember that Frodo and Sam really didn't know what they were doing. They were just hobbits, without a clear picture of exactly how far they were from their destination or how long the food would last. True, Sam brought his cooking gear along in anticipation of there being more hunting, but he's following Frodo's lead, and Frodo seems steadily less and less concerned with practical issues after the fellowship breaks. (I also have doubts about the hunting abilities of Frodo and Sam. The shire is a well-established farming-based society. Frodo was extremely wealthy and Sam worked as a gardener. Neither of them would have had the need nor the inclination to try hunting, a very unhobbitlike activity).

And Middle Earth does have cows. The idea that Middle Earth is ancient Earth is not so much literal (in which case there probably should have been aurochs, wooly mammoths, saber-tooth tigers ect), but related to Tolkien's attitude towards the ancient mythology on which he based his mythology.

Edit: Teehee. Woolly mammoths. I can just see it now. Elves hunting woolly mammoths across the ice-bridge between Valinor and Beleriand

 

[Lithorn]

It is best not to think of plot destroyers. They exist in every story yet, if they were actually executed; you'd have no story.

Or, rather than avoid thinking about them, you could do your research and discover that they are in fact not plot destroyers at all.