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Thread split from what gender are you internally: Is transgenderism/gender dysphoria a mental illnes

Brontosaurie

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i will respond later to redbaron, in the mean time i'm just saying i hope my view is not getting mixed up with those of Inquisitor or onesteptwostep. i could see that coming.
 

onesteptwostep

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@TMill Just as a disclaimer, since you're obviously emotionally invested in this, nothing that I'm saying is implied to hurt.

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Transgenders are in need of attention (or of its causes), transexuals aren't. You're mixing up hermaphrodites and transgenders. One is of the mind, one is of the body.

hermaphrodites and transgenders not part of that human race? Why are they exempt when considering the advancement of the human race?
Well like I said, it's arguable. I did not say 'hermaphrodites and transgenders are exempt from advancing humanity', I said they cannot advance it as a whole; as much as one lone couple down in Papua New Guinea not being able to advance humanity. I'm not devaluing their worth, I'm saying that a minority is no more special than the ones in the majority. In any case, it's arguable. I take no sides in that matter, nor have I really thought it through.

Ostracising someone from his community is just going to make the whole deal a hell of a whoppin' worse. A social network and support is needed with a variety of different people and sexes.
So you're saying the person can't adjust to a life down in some wild jungle somewhere? Are the jungle people bad? They won't befriend the transgender? The transgender can't handle life somewhere else? This just gives more weight to the notion that transgenders have a mental/psychological weakness or mis-spot of some sort.
When I think of 'acceptance', I think of finally coming to deal with something. To recognize that it may not need fixing.
Well putting reality first, we just may have to. But in terms of objectivity, the suggestion I've outlined could prove that they just need a little perspective. Being emotionally invested into someone just draws you into myopia. But yes, for whomever you know that's going through this, I feel sorry for their state and their dysphoria. But never would I use it to bring them down. But for them to expend energy into aligning their physicality to their mentality is simply an overreach to justify their state of disorder.

But if therapeutic cross-cultural methods are maybe proven to not work, then maybe it's another matter.
 

Ex-User (11125)

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There's oprah-type shows reporting trans children. They have liberal, open-minded and accepting families. Yet, just when the child first learns to speak, they utter out "I don't like who I am. I'm suppose to be a girl".

I'm very skeptical of this situation with those conditions actually happening. You'd think that first, the child needs to learn what the supposed genders and sexes are, and, he would would need to be taught what roles or characteristics he compares with in those groups.
Yeah a trans person would feel and sometimes even express a disconnect with their biology since childhood, but imo true awareness of the situation and what it would entail develops in adolescence
 

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So you're saying the person can't adjust to a life down in some wild jungle somewhere? Are the jungle people bad? They won't befriend the transgender? The transgender can't handle life somewhere else? This just gives more weight to the notion that transgenders have a mental/psychological weakness or mis-spot of some sort
Are you serious?
One of our basic needs as humans is the need to be recognized and accepted. the ghastly pain of being rejected by the community you grew up in is registered in the brain's dorsal anterior cingulate cortex, so the same place physical pain is. If anything, ostracization from a community says more about the community and their ridiculous intolerance that resembles medieval group-fear than the victim
 

onesteptwostep

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Do you really think what I'm pushing for is ostracization.

(heck, I'm not even pushing it, it's all just a theory)
 

crippli

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The penis IS a sexual characteristic, (if not the). If you can create and insert the seed, then you are male by definition. If you have both the seed and the egg.. then.. well that's another story. (asexual self-reproducing super humans?!?!)
You are male by definition by a quick view when you where an infant. It has got nothing to do with eggs and sperm and all that stuff. That is stuff you may be able to develop at some point later. Maybe both, or non or one. You still get to be a female or male regardless(as is the only two legal options in this time period and place where we live).


On you saying the my idea of the spectrum is of a binary one, I think you've misunderstood it. Sexuality is more of a scale. The gender is whether that number is a positive number or a negative number. The 'zero' in it technically doesn't exist. On sex, you will either get something like +0.000000001 or -0.000000001. But again, I'm not saying the person should choose, I'm just saying in order to function within society today, realistically, you need to adhere to one type of sex.
I view it more as you start with ten 1s. And end up with two 1s when old. After puberty you got 5 1's left. There are no zeroes or minuses. Hormone treatment will give more 1s on those areas, and less on others.

That person technically is a biological abnormality, but on whether she wants to be a female or a male, that's up to her. Whether she wants to do surgery or not (before adolescence), that's up to the parents. But we should move to eliminate stigma, that's for sure.
That's a strong word. If you have too. Why not label her as special?
 

onesteptwostep

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You are male by definition by a quick view when you where an infant. It has got nothing to do with eggs and sperm and all that stuff. That is stuff you may be able to develop at some point later. Maybe both, or non or one. You still get to be a female or male regardless(as is the only two legal options in this time period and place where we live).
This.. is true. But I think for utility, we have to start out like that. It's not like there's a way to to know for sure if that infant is going to turn into a certain type of a transexual/hermaphrodite. (like you said)

Physicians should check during puberty to see if there are abnormalities and then classify correctly from there. (via school or whatever, gov't organized)

I view it more as you start with ten 1s. And end up with two 1s when old. After puberty you got 5 1's left. There are no zeroes or minuses. Hormone treatment will give more 1s on those areas, and less on others.
Are you sure you're not mixing gender with sex?

If you have ten 1s, what makes a male male, and a female female? This doesn't seem to factor in the sex element.

That's a strong word. If you have too. Why not label her as special?
Well because calling it special simply reinforces double standard prejudice. We should be as neutral as possible with those words. Do you know the term 'special ed'?

It doesn't matter in the end what you term it as, people will derive derogative meaning from those words regardless. Imo I think it's best to be neutral. If you want a less verbose method of classifying it, then just call it different. Calling it special is just investing emotion into it. It's useless I think, a distraction. Like I said before, people in general just need to be more educated, and more accepting. Being a transexual is in no way a mental disorder either, so naming it special is simply.. just stupid imo. It's just simply prejudice. The transexuals themselves wouldn't like it either imo.

Personally I'd classify it as a biological abnormality as much as albinos are a biological abnormality (btw albinos are f***ing awesome). It doesn't devalue them in anyway. I'm just being neutral with the words.
 

crippli

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This.. is true. But I think for utility, we have to start out like that. It's not like there's a way to to know for sure if that infant is going to turn into a certain type of a transexual/hermaphrodite. (like you said)

Physicians should check during puberty to see if there are abnormalities and then classify correctly from there. (via school or whatever, gov't organized)
Or not classify at all. Why do you need to know the sex of children?
Are you sure you're not mixing gender with sex?
Gender is psychological. Sex is physical.
If you have ten 1s, what makes a male male, and a female female? This doesn't seem to factor in the sex element.
A male is decided by one person after a few seconds research. I'm talking about sexual characteristics as do not factor into what is male or female other then a few visual pointers. I'm not sure what to call a grown person as it's not a female or male anymore. As much more stuff have developed. So they bear little resemblance to what they where when they where classified. Now they have body hair. Aggression, cognition etc, all that is influenced by the sexual hormones. An infant will be maybe 7 out of 10. Meaning at this stage there may be a penis instead of a vagina. So from the 10 sexual characteristics that where still possible at conception some is lost at this point. As time does it's work, more will be lost.

Well because calling it special simply reinforces double standard prejudice. We should be as neutral as possible with those words. Do you know the term 'special ed'?

It doesn't matter in the end what you term it as, people will derive derogative meaning from those words regardless. Imo I think it's best to be neutral. If you want a less verbose method of classifying it, then just call it different. Calling it special is just investing emotion into it. It's useless I think, a distraction. Like I said before, people in general just need to be more educated, and more accepting. Being a transexual is in no way a mental disorder either, so naming it special is simply.. just stupid imo. It's just simply prejudice. The transexuals themselves wouldn't like it either imo.

Personally I'd classify it as a biological abnormality as much as albinos are a biological abnormality (btw albinos are f***ing awesome). It doesn't devalue them in anyway. I'm just being neutral with the words.
I don't know that word. This woman is intersexed. Not transsexual(two ss's). Although, I doubt there is much of a real difference if one dig deep enough.

So you think it's stupid, derogative and prejudiced to call her her special. But fine to call her biologically abnormal? There is no abnormality in nature. If it is created it is normal. Abnormal cannot be used in biology without assigning value judgement. As makes the science plummet in credibility.
 

Cherry Cola

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There are two main issues with Brontos line of reasoning. One is that what he's really arguing about are a larger issue which this particular matter happens to be part of but he has yet to define that larger issue clearly, I can sort of see where he's going (I think), but that's because I know the guy. The other is that what he's proposing is counterproductive to the values he claims to be furthering in the form that he is proposing it.

Calling transgenderism mental illness in itself does nothing good and makes no sense in the context of how mental illnesses are defined, ergo arbitrarily and inconsistently and not in line with the actual definition at hand.

The current definition for a mental disorder goes as follows:

"A mental disorder is a syndrome characterized by clinically significant disturbance in an individual's cognition, emotion regulation, or behavior that reflects a dysfunction in the psychological, biological, or developmental processes underlying mental functioning. Mental disorders are usually associated with significant distress in social, occupational, or other important activities. An expectable or culturally approved response to a common stressor or loss, such as the death of a loved one, is not a mental disorder. Socially deviant behavior (e.g., political, religious, or sexual) and conflicts that are primarily between the individual and society are not mental disorders unless the deviance or conflict results from a dysfunction in the individual, as described above."

I think its pretty clear that experiencing great distress because your sexual identity doesn't correspond with sexual characteristics of your body is quite clearly a mental disorder following that definition without the role of society being considered. Especially when you consider that a transgendered individual will be suffering from or will have been suffering from Gender Dysphoria:

Dysphoria= a profound state of unease or dissatisfaction. In a psychiatric context, dysphoria may accompany depression, anxiety, or agitation
Also take note that a mental disorder according to the current DSM definition quoted above doesnt have to include suffering, just that it usually does. Since this is the case transgendered individuals who have undergone treatment so that they can live as the sex they identify with and thus are no longer suffering are not excempt.
But the problem is the definition isn't being followed, transgenderism isn't the only example of this, there are plenty of others (here I urge you to do your own research, you'll find plenty of examples. Singling transgenderism out and calling it a mental illness without adressing the larger issue beforehand will only lead to greater stigma. It would send the message that this particular thing is really really a form of mental illness.

If transgenderism is to be considered a mental disorder it should be so along with a bunch of other diagnoses which are currently not. Psychiatry needs to change at large before this can happen. If a larger overhaul where to happen then maybe transgenderism and other diagnoses could be called mental illnesses without an increase in stigma following, indeed perhaps the publics disgusting attitude towards mental illnesses may even be altered if such a change where to occur (which in itself is a huge issue which does need to be adressed).

As it is now we have an issue where things which should be defined as mental illnesses are not because of the huge stigma attached to that label; this is counterproductive in the long run, and also unfair, the diagnoses which happen to be considered mental disorders suffer this stigma while others are excempt.

Some statistics on Stigma towards depression and schizophrenia from australia:

"A 2006 Australian study found that
nearly 1 in 4 of people felt depression was a sign of personal weakness and would not employ a person with depression
around a third would not vote for a politician with depression
42% thought people with depression were unpredictable
one in 5 said that if they had depression they would not tell anyone
nearly 2 in 3 people surveyed thought people with schizophrenia were unpredictable and a quarter felt that they were dangerous"

If you google you'll find similar stuff about pretty much all mental illnesses. This is a really really big issue, the moronic public sees mental illness as something strange, alien, likely dangerous which you should avoid contact with.
I think that if we were to call everything that by definition could be called mental illnesses as such and if DSM where to publicly take a stand for the fact that a mental illness doesn't need to be a bad thing and that something being a mental illness is no reason for anyone to fucking associate it with all the bad stuff they do today, and if elemental schools where to include some basic stuff about psychiatry in their curriculum then the publics ignorance could be battled more effectively. IMHO this needs to happen sooner or later, psychiatry's role in society IS growing ever larger, we can't have the psychitry of today having such power.

But simply calling transgenderism a mental illness on its own? A very bad idea. We are talking about one of, if not the most, discriminated against group of people. Adding more stigma to this group is an awful awful idea. It would not lead to the furthering of any truth. It would cause peoples understanding of transgenderism to deviate further from the truth.

(Which is what I meant when I wrote:

You don't teach people effectively by just telling them truths, because the truths will be warped by their preconceptions. Teaching people that transsexuality is a mental illness will not lead them to understand transsexuality to a greater degree, rather it will teach them that they don't need to because its a mental illness. <- which Bronto misinterpreted completely in a strange way which can't really be attributed to anything except agitation)

Now to adress the analogy which Bronto insists is very important:

it doesn't take a genious to realize that black people are considered ugly and low value and we should therefore call them white in pursuit of justice. that's _exactly_ your proposition. you're not getting around this. please do try.

In short this analogy has the same issues as Bronto's reasoning in general. It only holds up in a vacuum, its only a correct analogy in principle; it completely fails to take context into consideration and thus is not an effective arbiter of positive change.
When the situation with psychiatry is considered it is not strange that transgenderism is considered or called mental illness. If we had a situation in which we could save black and other non caucasian people from stigma by calling them white and we were doing so then singling out one group on non-caucasians and calling them by the name of their actual ethnicity thus causing them in particular to suffer greater stigma without actually adressing the larger issue would also be a really fucken bad idea.

(Indeed that would likely lead to people saying "look at what happened, we should just call everyone white and never make this same mistake again")
 

onesteptwostep

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Or not classify at all. Why do you need to know the sex of children?
Oh come on, are you seriously going with this.

Flip it around and ask yourself the question in a different light. Why do we not have to classify sex because of some extreme minority, who probably make up much less than 1% of the world's population? The 99% has to conform to the 1%? See how ridiculous the question is?

As for why we classify sex, I don't know, why not ask a doctor? To me that's simply a senseless rhetorical question. I don't see it as having utility at all. Not everyone suffers from dysphoria or some sex/gender related distress. I would say 95% do not, and I'm even being generous with the percentages here. Very generous.
A male is decided by one person after a few seconds research. I'm talking about sexual characteristics as do not factor into what is male or female other then a few visual pointers. I'm not sure what to call a grown person as it's not a female or male anymore. As much more stuff have developed. So they bear little resemblance to what they where when they where classified. Now they have body hair. Aggression, cognition etc, all that is influenced by the sexual hormones. An infant will be maybe 7 out of 10. Meaning at this stage there may be a penis instead of a vagina. So from the 10 sexual characteristics that where still possible at conception some is lost at this point. As time does it's work, more will be lost.
No, this is absolutely just mental gymnastics. Tell me, give the 3~ trillion people on earth, wouldn't you say that you would be able to classify who's male or female with one look at least 95% of the time? This is just mental gymnastics to provide more value to intersexuals and transexuals. There is no utility in what you're trying to say, at all. Absolutely none. What happens to all the functions that are divided by sex? Females and males generally interact differently, and have different roles. For fucks sake women do not even piss the same way males do.

I don't know that word. This woman is intersexed. Not transsexual(two ss's). Although, I doubt there is much of a real difference if one dig deep enough.
I took a look at wiki, there is. A transexual is someone who looks to have ambiguous sex. A intersexual is someone who has sex tissue of both sexes. Big difference.

So you think it's stupid, derogative and prejudiced to call her her special. But fine to call her biologically abnormal? There is no abnormality in nature. If it is created it is normal. Abnormal cannot be used in biology without assigning value judgement. As makes the science plummet in credibility.
As I said before, then are Siamese twins, albinos, and kids born with down syndrome normal? You have have a cut off for what's normal and what's not. Being blind to it doesn't do it any good, nor does being blind to it devalue or even value the subject in question. To acknowledge its uniqueness is to be mature to its biological singularity and nuance.

The bold is false. Like I said, in general, people just need more education, and just need to be more accepting. Abnormality does not mean that the subject in question is wrong. That is setting up a false dichotomy, a misunderstanding. People of the 21th century aren't as bigoted (in general) as you paint them to be. As I've said before, calling it a biological abnormality is neutral. And like I've said before, if it's too verbose, then calling it different is fine. As for its scientific categorization, let the scientists decide that, not us.

edit: biologically abnormal =/= biological abnormality =/= not normal
 

crippli

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Flip it around and ask yourself the question in a different light. Why do we not have to classify sex because of some extreme minority, who probably make up much less than 1% of the world's population? The 99% has to conform to the 1%? See how ridiculous the question is?
True. The likes of Galileo fits nicely into this. And got executed for the worldview.

As for why we classify sex, I don't know, why not ask a doctor?
Why should we clasify something if we do not know the point of it?
Tell me, give the 3~ trillion people on earth, wouldn't you say that you would be able to classify who's male or female with one look at least 95% of the time?
I don't do that/try not to as I find the labels utterly ridiculous, as explained. I may wonder if they would be suitable to complement the points I've lost to make children. But that is only a selfish notion, and have nothing to do with them. Or I could wonder if they would be skilled in other things.

I took a look at wiki, there is. A transexual is someone who looks to have ambiguous sex. A intersexual is someone who has sex tissue of both sexes. Big difference.
This is where we mainly differ. You assign more significance if there is something odd with the penis compared to the cerebellum. Without the brain, the penis is worthless. Right?

As I said before, then are Siamese twins, albinos, and kids born with down syndrome normal?
I would prefer to use the word average instead of normal.

The bold is false. Like I said, in general, people just need more education, and just need to be more accepting. Abnormality does not mean that the subject in question is wrong. That is setting up a false dichotomy, a misunderstanding. People of the 21th century aren't as bigoted (in general) as you paint them to be. As I've said before, calling it a biological abnormality is neutral.
I disagree. What a miserable life to be just accepted. Everyone is in need of being loved with affection and selfless dedication.
 

onesteptwostep

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@crippli

The part about Galileo is a strawman.

If you don't know the point of it is, why not ask a doctor?

No, the label is devoid of emotional investment. Calling it average doesn't do it any good either. What differentiates non-albinos with albinos? Non-Siamese twins with Siamese twins? Kids not born with down syndrome to kids with down syndrome? Again, the label is devoid of emotional investment. It isn't supposed to be used in everyday vocabulary, it's merely a categorization for utility. To think otherwise is to start with a false dichotomy.

I'm just curious though, what part of the English speaking world are you from? I think there might be a clue as to why you're so clingy to this.

This is where we mainly differ. You assign more significance if there is something odd with the penis compared to the cerebellum. Without the brain, the penis is worthless. Right?

Can you clarify this for me? I want to make sure I don't misunderstand what you're saying.
 

Cherry Cola

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People who don't think people who are trans should get to change Id's to reflect their mental genders are the worst Dix IMHO, might be needed to know at hospitals in certain rare instances but that can easily be worked around and is not a real issue.
 

onesteptwostep

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^ I know that wasn't directed at me (or was it?) but as for that, it's then their gender that should be outlined, not their sex. If so, then IDs should only provide what gender you are. But if it's an ID that requires identification of sex, then only the correct sex should be put down.
 

Inquisitor

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People who don't think people who are trans should get to change Id's to reflect their mental genders are the worst Dix IMHO, might be needed to know at hospitals in certain rare instances but that can easily be worked around and is not a real issue.

Oh right...not major at all. :rolleyes: So much in our society depends on knowing someone's birth gender. If you make it legal for anyone to change the gender on their government-issued ID based on how they mentally feel, there's going to be chaos. It's one thing to allow people to change their names. Gender is an entirely different issue. States will not allow someone to change their birth certificate gender unless the individual undergoes sex reassignment surgery or some kind of physical "gender transition."

Secondly, why are you calling him a "Dix?" His points are way more valid than yours.

True. The likes of Galileo fits nicely into this. And got executed for the worldview.


Why should we clasify something if we do not know the point of it?

I don't do that/try not to as I find the labels utterly ridiculous, as explained. I may wonder if they would be suitable to complement the points I've lost to make children. But that is only a selfish notion, and have nothing to do with them. Or I could wonder if they would be skilled in other things.


This is where we mainly differ. You assign more significance if there is something odd with the penis compared to the cerebellum. Without the brain, the penis is worthless. Right?


I would prefer to use the word average instead of normal.


I disagree. What a miserable life to be just accepted. Everyone is in need of being loved with affection and selfless dedication.

Crippli and Cherry Cola, you're raking onesteptwostep over the coals for nothing, and engaging in idiotic mental gymnastics whereas his points are solid. Gender dysphoria is an abnormality and here's why it makes sense to think of it as such: For the vast majority of those afflicted, it sucks to be born into this condition, and most of them want to kill themselves. It's not just because of the stigma. As I already mentioned, I personally know one who did, he was my first best friend. When he was a boy, he never seemed distressed about being a boy. Even in his teenage years, he was still ok. It was only when he got to college that he tried to commit suicide. Then he was ok for a few years, and then he decided to change his name and dress like a woman. Soon thereafter, he jumped onto the subway tracks. He wasn't poor. He went to a good college, had great parents, had loving friends. Being trans in and of itself (having gender dysphoria in the new language) just plain sucks. It is totally different from being intersex, where a person looks like a normal man or woman, but actually has other sexual tissues.

You're either male or female, and the distinction is important and necessary for psychological well-being. I believe in reincarnation and karma; if you're born trans, it's just bad karma. There's no reason to try to knock down the whole concept of gender just because a small fraction of the population has an abnormal genome.
 

Lot

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People shouldn't want to mutilate their bodies to be comfortable with themselves. But if they do then thats their thing thing to deal with. I won't pretend to know what it's like to think I'm in the wrong body, or have the wrong parts, or what ever it is that someone in the position of a transperson deals with.

I just think people should learn to love the body they have, and accept the cards they were dealt. Some things can be changed. So go a head and change them. Just make sure you are changing for you. The things you can't change should be accepted. That's what therapy, meditation, and/or drugs are for.

One day tech might make it possible for me to become a giant robot with hydra heads and a nuclear power cell. That'll be a pretty damn kool day.
 

Polaris

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Hmmm.

I have read this thread for some time now and can see where Bronto and others are coming from. I defer from taking any sides as it is a highly complex issue, which I will attempt to outline below for those who have the patience with my scientific musings and research.

I understand what Bronto is trying to explain, and it makes logically sense. If a person is physiologically male and feels female or has the desire to be female, that can indeed be considered a fault of the mind to align with the biological manifestation.

And this may be the issue for those who have grown up with highly confusing nurturing stimuli that would somehow mess up their gender identity. Trauma would potentially contribute significantly.

I also understand that Bronto and others are not attempting to judge mental illness as anything other than a state of mind which differs from the norm. Current attitudes are now changing regarding mental illness, which means it is becoming easier to accept that one may not be aligning with the norm, but that it is okay and there are means to deal with it in ways that do not alienate the individual further, but seeks to understand and thus integrate.

However, there are individuals that have a severe discrepancy between the perceived mind/body divide. These individuals struggle to the point where it only feels right to alter the body to align with the mind, rather than the other way around.

There are very distinct physiological/anatomical differences between the male and female brain. I hope what I am presenting here would give some incentive to reflect on the potentially profound effect even small physiological differences in the brain can make, regardless of sex.

Fairly recent studies have revealed a consistent and very distinct shift to female brain anatomy of androphilic male-to-female transsexuals. These results were conducted on individuals who had no prior hormone treatment. Using fmrI, there was a very clear response to sexual stimuli in the biological males that was not present in biological females, and the androphilic transsexuals shifted towards the female response patterns.

Source

Secondly, and this is where it gets very interesting is where actual mapping of brain anatomy reveals white matter microstructure in male-to-female transsexuals to fall halfway between that of biological male and female controls. This would indicate a potential 'failure' to develop full masculinization during brain development.

Conversely, in gynephilic male-to-female transsexuals there was no indication of feminization of the brain structure, and that gender dysphoria may be associated with changes in multiple structures and involve more complex network interactions. Gynephilic transsexuals "displayed also singular features and differed from both control groups by having reduced thalamus and putamen volumes and elevated GM volumes in the right insular and inferior frontal cortex and an area covering the right angular gyrus."

Thus:

Contrary to the primary hypothesis, no sex-atypical features with signs of 'feminization' were detected in the transsexual group....The present study does not support the dogma that [male-to-female transsexuals] have atypical sex dimorphism in the brain but confirms the previously reported sex differences. The observed differences between MtF-TR and controls raise the question as to whether gender dysphoria may be associated with changes in multiple structures and involve a network (rather than a single nodal area).

This suggests there are specific brain structures associated with gender/sex confusion in male-to-female gynophilic transsexuals, however these do not affect sexual disposition.

Several studies were conducted over the years in mixed samples of male-to-female transsexuals, but the results have been conflicting where some demonstrated differences and others none.

In 2009, however, a UCLA study of mixed male-to-female androphilic and gynophilic transsexuals reported the following: "However, MTF transsexuals show a significantly larger volume of regional gray matter in the right putamen compared to men. These findings provide new evidence that transsexualism is associated with distinct cerebral pattern, which supports the assumption that brain anatomy plays a role in gender identity."

Gynephilic female-to-male transsexuals show distinct male-like neuroanatomy, even before the test subjects started hormone treatment.

An example of the powerful biological imperative is evident in the case of twins Bruce and Brian, born in 1965 in the USA. As the boys had trouble urinating, it was recommended that they be circumcised at 6 months of age. Bruce's penis became permanently damaged as a result and after many consultations it was decided that Bruce's penis had to be removed.

At the time a psychologist was promoting the idea that gender identity was completely a matter of nurture, and thus the parents decided in consultation with the experts at the time to raise Bruce as a girl and not let him know his true gender after the castration. He was renamed Brenda.

Brenda resisted from day one, and eventually became unmanageable. Her rejection of her female identity continued through to middle school and got to the point where she was bullied and harassed by other females. She wanted badly to be a boy, and even attempted to stand up while urinating, like a boy. The problems became so severe that the parents were eventually given the advice to construct a vagina for Brenda, so that she could fully accept her femininity. She rebelled completely at the prospect and attempted suicide several times over the coming years.

At 14, the parents were desperate and so followed the advice from a local psychiatrist, and decided to divulge Brenda her true gender.

She immediately accepted it, cut her hair and renamed herself David. David went through a series of body alterations such as double mastectomies (she had received hormone treatments to promote growth of breasts) and the construction of a penis.

As David was now able to express his true male identity he was accepted by other boys and started behaving like other teenage boys and even began dating young women. He married and had a successful relationship with his wife for some years.

David suffered from chronic depression, however, and committed suicide in 2004.

Source

As this case is a single example, it does not provide significant evidence for the nature vs nurture argument one way or the other. This is because the gender-reassignment did not start until he was 2 years of age, and is thus not enough to reject the nurture argument. It is hypothesised that the first two years may be sufficient to establish a gender identity through nurture, but the question remains unanswered as this is very limited evidence.

Many recent studies provide some interesting evidence in support of the nature theory, however, including the studies cited previously. These are but a snippet of the available evidence out there, so if anyone wants to investigate further there is a plethora of literature, although some not available to the public.

Now, I'm a trained scientist (disclaimer: I am not a neuroscientist, but I have background in biology, anatomy, physiology and many other scientific disciplines), so I know better than to jump to conclusions, just because the evidence seems in favour of a certain trend currently. The field of neurology is quickly evolving with better technological developments, and I think that we in the near future will be able to gain better insight and understanding by looking at the physiological and neurological and how it interacts with the psyche.

However, if it is indeed the case that anatomy, and thus the biological imperative has such a powerful influence over the psychological, we have to review how we assess mental illnesses in the future. Further research is needed to investigate physiological/anatomical/psychological interactions.

Yes, these individuals are perhaps mentally ill (aren't we all to some extent). But perhaps for reasons that are hidden in the biological imperative - the part of the picture that remains hidden for now. If one is indeed hard-wired in the brain as female, but have a male physique, the conflict would be inevitable as society and culture has expectations based predominantly on the physical. The result would certainly set that individual up for psychological challenges.

I hope this can give some cause for reflection, for those who are interested.
 

crippli

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Calling it average doesn't do it any good either. What differentiates non-albinos with albinos? Non-Siamese twins with Siamese twins? Kids not born with down syndrome to kids with down syndrome?
To be accurate one can say non-albino. This is more descriptive for me. But one can say what one want. If you think the other is more descriptive, don't change wording for me.
I'm just curious though, what part of the English speaking world are you from?
Not part of the English speaking world. But still I'm speaking English, to a degree. What an outrage, right? :D I will interpret a lot of words a bit different then a native speaker. When unsure I must look them up. So it is not a 'natural' language for me. So maybe related to the thread in a way. Am I passable? I took the comment about 'part of the English speaking word' as a compliment :)


Can you clarify this for me? I want to make sure I don't misunderstand what you're saying.
My point of my posts here is my opinion that biology is not binary(secundary, the primary(OP) we are of a similar opinion). Polaris did a nice job at providing the scientific point of view on the OP. I also agree with Cherrys post on the sociological view.

I like these threads. Maybe one can say that it is hacking human nature. Very fascinating. Here one see the real thing in play. Not just some authority figure proving the answers. A thread like this is for me more educational then any of the papers provided. It's the real thing in theoretical form. So everyone who have participated have been of much value for me. The same discussion 5 years ago, would have been very different. Things change.
 

Inquisitor

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To be accurate one can say non-albino. This is more descriptive for me. But one can say what one want. If you think the other is more descriptive, don't change wording for me.

Not part of the English speaking world. But still I'm speaking English, to a degree. What an outrage, right? :D I will interpret a lot of words a bit different then a native speaker. When unsure I must look them up. So it is not a 'natural' language for me. So maybe related to the thread in a way. Am I passable? I took the comment about 'part of the English speaking word' as a compliment :)


My point of my posts here is my opinion that biology is not binary(secundary, the primary(OP) we are of a similar opinion). Polaris did a nice job at providing the scientific point of view on the OP. I also agree with Cherrys post on the sociological view.

I like these threads. Maybe one can say that it is hacking human nature. Very fascinating. Here one see the real thing in play. Not just some authority figure proving the answers. A thread like this is for me more educational then any of the papers provided. It's the real thing in theoretical form. So everyone who have participated have been of much value for me. The same discussion 5 years ago, would have been very different. Things change.

Sex is binary. The tiny percentage of people who are born intersex or trans represent errors in reproduction. No one wants to be born with both types of reproductive tissue, and no one wants to experience gender dysphoria. Both conditions suck, the latter more than the former. The idea that gender is a spectrum and that it's desirable to be born in between is ridiculous. We shouldn't stigmatize these people, but at the same time, we should be seriously investigating the biological mechanisms at work so we can prevent this from happening ever again. It's not desirable for the patient or for society as a whole.

The cause of these conditions is that certain genes are not replicated 100% accurately, and this results in defective proteins that don't operate as they should. The studies that Polaris referenced do provide evidence that being trans is rooted in biology. He left out one of the most important studies though: BBC

And the relevant study: Androgen Receptor Repeat Length Polymorphism Associated with Male-to-Female Transsexualism

Simple changes in something like a sex hormone receptor can have a cascading effect. Hopefully in the future, we will have something like in the movie Gattaca, where it will be possible to choose the best (most error-free) sperm and egg from each parent to minimize the chances of genetic defects.
 

Ex-User (9086)

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It's not desirable for the patient or for society as a whole.
Society benefits from reduced population growth. There's too many people on this planet and homosexuality or whatever other mechanism that reduces the rate of reproduction will help save us in the future.
 

Inquisitor

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Society benefits from reduced population growth. There's too many people on this planet and homosexuality or whatever other mechanism that reduces the rate of reproduction will help save us in the future.

Homosexuality I can agree with...but TG/Intersex? No. The percentage is too small to make much of a difference, but the associated costs both financial/psychological are too high. The TG movement will presumably end up advocating successfully for more widespread health insurance coverage for sex reassignment surgery. Here is an example of what that entails. Horrendously expensive. Then there's the mental health treatment costs. There's no reason we can't stamp out this defect once and for all once the field of genetics advances sufficiently.
 

Lapis Lazuli

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Society benefits from reduced population growth. There's too many people on this planet and homosexuality or whatever other mechanism that reduces the rate of reproduction will help save us in the future.

Consent must be a factor, and not coercion. Some heterosexuals accept homosexual orientation without wanting to participate in it, or wanting to increase the strain on the environment.
 

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i lied, i won't be coming back to this topic.

i've said all there is to say in favor of my position. i think the issue is simply that the truth claims from either side are in different domains, but my opponents want to claim both domains or dismiss my domain as invalid, while i acknowledge the limitations of my domain and the validity of both domains. i can say that my opponents are right in their domain and i can do that freely, because i am right in the critical domain of concepts anyway and they are right merely in the trivial domain of practical implementation. they are right that the world isn't quite ready to integrate mental illness as a concept and as a phenomenon, more specifically that the world can't yet consider transsexuality a mental illness without judging it. that is a perfectly true statement in itself and it's an easy concession for me to make. but my opponents can't return that concession; they can't say that i'm right "in principle", that my statement holds solid truth from a certain perspective, only that i'm right "just in principle" meaning some simplistic half-assed fake-truth rather than a legit domain of truth. if we approach these domains and their relationship neutrally, wouldn't most of us agree that while they may both hold truth claims that may be simultaneously valid although seemingly conflicting, the domain of abstract concepts is primary to the domain of mass society's capacity to consistently integrate abstract concepts, and not the other way around like my opponents like to suggest in this case? that it's a more interesting arena of discussion and should be considered default when discussing a subject - because it's irreducible. it is the core. i have dealt with the subject - my opponents have dealt with meta-subject. i have discussed a topic - my opponents have discussed how that topic can be discussed. it's different things. i know meta has a good rep today but i think in this type of case the meta is just a reluctance to tackle a subject by its own premises, always worrying about what people would think and if it's realistic and fair and so forth. if we were discussing "considering the current state of psychiatry, the demands of the medical market, popular prejudices and mindsets, and the current classifications of other comparable conditions, is it justifiable to officially classify transsexualism as a mental illness in the standard inventory?" (maybe i should've just underscored everything). that would have been another thing but the topic wasn't that, it was actually "is transsexualism a mental illness?" and so the problem is that my opponents haven't discussed the core topic but something else which they call the core topic, perhaps due to relativistic/subjectivistic views on mental illness. this is what creates confusion and perpetual battle.

anyone who feels the need to take this for a cop-out is more than welcome. it might seem like that and i'm not interested in proving that it isn't cause that will at best result in more dishonest ivory tower pseudo-discussion.
 

onesteptwostep

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To be honest the topic's in a huge mess right now. Opinions are flying all over the place while some are just misunderstanding the other person's position.

Coming from what bronto says about the topic title, that in itself is misleading when just looked at superficially, because it seems to equate transgenderism with gender dysphoria from the getco. A transgender does not always mean they have dysphoria, which then means that the transgender does not always have a mental disorder. I'm repeating myself, but RB says this pages ago.

Transgenderism does not equate mental disorder, but rather, it can lead to a mental disorder/dysphoria. The question more comes from whether transgenderism is a product of one's binary/sexualized culture. But even if this is the case, this does not mean it's a mental disorder because the condition was brought up on by development. Like how Polaris notes, brain makeup seems to have affect on how one views his or herself (in that sexualized culture). Therefore it's not a cause of a mental disorder but a matter of genetics or upbringing (though I personally side with upbringing; nurture). (The part about Brenda/David is just a kid who went through the cultural programming correctly for him to be a male imo. For male transgenders on the other hand, I think it's the upbringing that causes the mental divide. The cause of the dysphoria in question are different).

Transgenderism that stems from intersexuals on the other hand (which is what crippli and I were talking about), now that in itself is another matter. Whether they should have surgery or not just depends on what they feel like, no one should have a say in that- the body is their own to manipulate. However, the point I want to make, one of them, is that an intersexual must lean towards one sex more than the other, to function and survive in society. Being a transgender or having dysphoria isn't even an issue here, it's about utility. The intersexual, if the affect of stigma on the person is gone, needs to choose for his or herself whether to lean towards the one sex, or the other.

Another pointer is their categorization. (Talking about intersexuals here just to clarify). There's an emotional aspect that's carried in the wording that simply lacks maturity. It's as bad as YECs going 'we're not monkeys, we're HUMAN!' (well okay maybe it's not that bad). The scope of the question at hand is being misunderstood. The emotional aspect aids in awareness, but I think it does nothing to advance utility or truth. I personally don't think calling it average in any sense helps them with anything. To me, an intersexual is simply a biological abnormality. They are an outlier. To assign value to it is to misunderstand what the categorization is for. To be blind to this is somewhat like being blind to race. It does nothing to advance them from their state of stigma.

Anyway the notion bronto on the other hand is going for is a bit different. People can read his post if they haven't; we're at tangents, though the subject at hand is the same. Him and Cherry's is more objectivity vs. context.

On crippli's notion that biology is not 'binary' I'm against that idea because you either have XX or XY. You either are female or male (sex-wise, not gender). Anything other than that is a mishappen in biological development, thus should be called for what it is, an abnormality. Just as an abnormality as people born with six fingers or a person with all hair covered all over. It's too singular in itself to be called a normality- no value is lost nor gained here. Just because it's tied in with sexuality doesn't suddenly mean that sexual lines are to be blurred, it's not revolutionary or avant-garde at all in its thinking, it's simply a lack of oversight of the entire function and reality of the two sexes.

Anyway hopefully that clears things up.
 

redbaron

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onesteptwostep said:
Anyway hopefully that clears things up.

The opposite actually.

9qAnPIV.jpg
 

onesteptwostep

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:cat:
 

Seteleechete

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:phear:*cautiously puts a foot into this thread* *looks to see if the coast is clear**Do I really dare get into this mess?*

Meh I am in 784 mood dundurudundundun:icon_pferdehaufen:

Anyway Bronto seems to be arguing that technically the term "mental illness" applies to this situation(I am undecided if this is true and I don't really care). But since a good enough counter argument hasn't been presented to this I will simply give Bronto right on this.

The other side seems to be arguing that the term shouldn't apply due to the cultural connotations behind it and the fact that it lumps transgenderism together with more severe mental illness. This since transgenderism whether technically a mental illness or not isn't an actual problem without the lumping/cultural connotations. So by not calling it mental illness it wouldn't be a problem comparative to if you did. The people that then call it a mental illness either actually believe it a problem( an opinion I disagree with) or believe in using technical correct language describing transgenderism regardless the consequences in reality(I am neutral on this matter).

Huh I actually have nothing more to say *shrug*.
Btw, did I miss anything?
 

Reluctantly

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Let's say that it is.

Why does that matter? Are people not allowed to be "mentally ill", to be different?
 

Reluctantly

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But a transgender can change genders and have their symptoms of mental illness go away. By embracing what they are, they no longer become mentally ill.

Logically, if the transgenderism was a mental illness, reinforcing it wouldn't wouldn't make the illness go away - and yet it does. How do these facts yet support transgender as a mental illness to begin with?
 

redbaron

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Brontosaurie said:
you may want to rephrase your question to better capture what you intended to ask. it wouldn't be advantageous for me to take a guess, so i'll refrain from that.

if that person's mind receives erroneous information about that person's body and constructs an erroneous sense of what that person is, then yes that person is mentally ill.

Rephrased:

Someone with an outwardly male body, possessing the brain morphology of a typical female believes they are ultimately a female, trapped inside a man's body.

Are they suffering a "pervasive failure of the mind"? Are they mentally ill?

Brontosaurie said:
why is it so important to you that i be wrong somehow? i'm actually not. sorry.

It's important to me that you be consistent, because you're one of many people who's trying to prematurely apply a label to something that is not only potentially damaging, but also wrong.

There's a lot of evidence cropping up, showing that sex identification stems from physical brain structure, more than any psychological condition or outward appearance. Researchers are not finding people whose gender identification is affected by environment and social situations. I.e. you can't "condition" someone to feel like a male if their brain structure is female in nature.

So if we're calling transgender a mental illness, it's important that we understand that we're potentially calling someone mentally ill based on what brain structure they were born with.

Now I know you're a dualist, so you're going to try and respond that this isn't about the "brain" but the "mind function". That would be fine, except research is showing so far that trying to condition someone's sexual identity to run contrary to their brain structure is not only fruitless, but potentially severely damaging. In other words, the "mind function" when it comes to sexual identity, will simply reflect whatever the brain structure dictates - which is consistent with lots of neurological research regarding personality conditions as well.

It's possible that gender identity is an entirely physiological phenomena by nature, something ingrown and unchanging. Whereas perceptive phenomena are adaptable and affected by the environment.

Ergo it's not a "pervasive failure of the mind", a "failure of self-awareness" or a mental illness to do with "mind function". It exists in a manner as profoundly physical and observable as any reproductive organ - it's just not immediately apparent from the outside.
 

propianotuner1

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Rephrased:

Someone with an outwardly male body, possessing the brain morphology of a typical female believes they are ultimately a female, trapped inside a man's body.

Are they suffering a "pervasive failure of the mind"? Are they mentally ill?

"Brain morphology", eh? That's quite a claim. Would you care to substantiate that?
 

Brontosaurie

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Rephrased:

Someone with an outwardly male body, possessing the brain morphology of a typical female believes they are ultimately a female, trapped inside a man's body.

Are they suffering a "pervasive failure of the mind"? Are they mentally ill?



It's important to me that you be consistent, because you're one of many people who's trying to prematurely apply a label to something that is not only potentially damaging, but also wrong.

There's a lot of evidence cropping up, showing that sex identification stems from physical brain structure, more than any psychological condition or outward appearance. Researchers are not finding people whose gender identification is affected by environment and social situations. I.e. you can't "condition" someone to feel like a male if their brain structure is female in nature.

So if we're calling transgender a mental illness, it's important that we understand that we're potentially calling someone mentally ill based on what brain structure they were born with.

Now I know you're a dualist, so you're going to try and respond that this isn't about the "brain" but the "mind function". That would be fine, except research is showing so far that trying to condition someone's sexual identity to run contrary to their brain structure is not only fruitless, but potentially severely damaging. In other words, the "mind function" when it comes to sexual identity, will simply reflect whatever the brain structure dictates - which is consistent with lots of neurological research regarding personality conditions as well.

It's possible that gender identity is an entirely physiological phenomena by nature, something ingrown and unchanging. Whereas perceptive phenomena are adaptable and affected by the environment.

Ergo it's not a "pervasive failure of the mind", a "failure of self-awareness" or a mental illness to do with "mind function". It exists in a manner as profoundly physical and observable as any reproductive organ - it's just not immediately apparent from the outside.

why have you decided beforehand that something hardwired can't be a mental illness? i don't subscribe to any such presupposition, and have given no such indication. you're not delivering a final blow to anything.

no i'm not a dualist and the mind is just a more relevant and generalized term, as you would know if you read the posts you pretend to be responding to. shut the fuck up and quit being a stupid annoying philosophically illiterate PitA
 

Yellow

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I cannot afford the time to read every argument word for word at this point, but I'm familiar with the players and I skimmed the posts.

Our minds are not perfect machines. Self-awareness is limited. We are still differentiating between what is and isn't normal, and what "normal" means in terms of abnormal psychology.

We, like other similar species, have two sexes. Now, sexual behavior is dictated predominantly by instinct with a healthy dose of culture thrown in. Gender roles are the opposite, mostly culture with a sizable amount of instinct.

Similarly, the job of connecting our sex to our gender is the brain's job. Most of it is instinct, and some of it is culture. If the brain fails to connect your gender to your sex, it's abnormal. It is a disconnect. While the working definition of mental illness may not apply, something abnormal has clearly occurred.

Sometimes this abnormality can be attributed to physical anomalies (e.g. XY females). Sometimes, it can be clearly attributed to psychological issues (e.g. lady-boy sex workers). Others don't fall into these categories and can be chalked up to choice, undiscovered factors, or perhaps really a malfunction.

I understand the knee-jerk reaction against the idea that atypical gender identification being a malfunction, abnormality, or failure of some kind. If there were more neutral words available, I'd use them. The fight is against the idea that these people should be marginalized, shunned, sent to ineffective treatment to "fix" them, and otherwise make them feel "wrong". The problem though, is that this creates an elephant in the room -- one that is easily exploited by those with more black and white thinking.

No one's body is perfect. No one's mind is perfect. The fact that this topic is so common, shows that transgenderism and transsexuality is a "normal abnormality", like albinism, webbed feet, or autism. Transgendered people are not in any way "less" or "broken", but it's difficult to deny that they are lacking whatever it is that connects their sex to the corresponding gender.
 

crippli

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"Brain morphology", eh? That's quite a claim. Would you care to substantiate that?
To get the red thread you need to read RBs posts in this thread. Then Polarises post, then Cherrys post. Then Jump over to the other thread and read from post #171. Then back to this thread and then you should have a bit of substantiation. RB is arguing from a scientific pow. The other side from a religious point of view. Although I am not sure they are aware of this. Specifically Deuteronomy 22:5.

An interesting thing to note though is Brontosaurie premise.
Brontosaurie said:
if that person's mind receives erroneous information about that person's body and constructs an erroneous sense of what that person is, then yes that person is mentally ill.
As is a bit funny. As this is not the TG group. Most, maybe +90% operate just fine biologically and socially. Have a car, dog, house, 9-15 job, wife/husband and kids. Quite the average set up with other words. Now if the rest of the body is malfunctioning for whatever reason. Just a tiny thing like a tooth. One will with time literately go insane if nerve endings are not healed. As is just a general thing that is true for most anything.

As for mental illnesses(psychology), that's subjectivity. Changes to reflect society. It's not that many years ago women where considered mentally on the level at children. Therefor unthinkable to have them vote, make decisions etc. This would translate to a rather severe mental disorder to stop developing at a teenage level. Blacks where considered more beast then man. But things change. Society changes. Mental illness changes. What was true, becomes false. Some people definitely need the protection a mental illness label can provide. But to label entire groups of very diverse people with a label that is not too highly regarded by most people(although, I quite like it), is too much for me.

Basically, I see it boiled down to this;
If one is not a bible supporter. The most devastating thing a woman can do against it's teachings is to put on a pair of pants. To transgender. A man can take care of the children and make some food. A woman can run the company.

World isn't going to end by transitioning gender.
 

redbaron

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:beatyou:

Brontosaurie said:
why have you decided beforehand that something hardwired can't be a mental illness?

I haven't.

I'm disputing the idea that TG is a "pervasive failure of the mind" and a "failure of self-awareness" for a few reasons:

1. It's careless
2. It's inconsistent with verifiable knowledge we're learning about how brain morphology (especially in the limbic system) plays into sexual identity

Now if you'd stop dodging the topic and answer the question I asked:

Someone with an outwardly male body, possessing the brain morphology of a typical female believes they are ultimately a female, trapped inside a man's body.

Are they suffering a "pervasive failure of the mind"? Are they mentally ill?


no i'm not a dualist and the mind is just a more relevant and generalized term, as you would know if you read the posts you pretend to be responding to

It'a not more relevant if the phenomena isn't reliant on a perceptive component, as evidence is showing may be the case. In fact I'd dispute whether it's ever relevant outside of situations where ease of discussion is valued over accuracy.

However since you mentioned this debate is about truth and undeestanding, I thought it fair that we take care to be accurate in our terminology.

You keep saying you're not a dualist, but whenever you try and justify your viewpoint of TG being a "pervasive failure of the mind" or a "failure of self-awareness" you rely on dualistic concepts like, "mind function".

Brontosaurie said:
shut the fuck up and quit being a stupid annoying philosophically illiterate PitA

If you can't respond to the arguments being made or answer questions relevant to the discussion, then don't post.

Read, debate, respond.
 

propianotuner1

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To get the red thread you need to read RBs posts in this thread. Then Polarises post, then Cherrys post. Then Jump over to the other thread and read from post #171. Then back to this thread and then you should have a bit of substantiation. RB is arguing from a scientific pow. The other side from a religious point of view. Although I am not sure they are aware of this. Specifically Deuteronomy 22:5.

An interesting thing to note though is Brontosaurie premise.

My deal is, I've read about as much as I'd like of the arguments and I didn't find any actual references to a neurological study. I've looked for one pretty well now, so I'm reasonably certain at this point that there hasn't been any real scientific support for the notion as of yet.

What is qualitatively different about transgender brain morphology? Do they have an enlarged amygdala or hippocampus? Atypical connections between brain regions, like for example the kinds of connections made by a synesthete? If not, folks can use all the scientific language they want, but it's baseless conjecture.
 

redbaron

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propianotuner1

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30 seconds of Google searching is damn difficult:

http://www.academia.edu/7346016/Wha...or_Neurological_Basis_of_Transgender_Identity

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html#.VaCrk4E_7qA


Plus links Polaris posted. Google scholar the names of some of the referenced researchers, you'll find at least half a dozen more relevant studies.

I really appreciate the references. Sorry if my statements sounded like a casual dismissal.
 

Brontosaurie

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the mind is not a dualistic concept you lil flake. super ad-hoc shit.

you don't get to preach "read, debate, respond". well sure you'll be convincing people who haven't seen that massive quotemining is your main tactic against me. your points are irrelevant, the mind is not a dualistic concept (and you're very much relying on it too anyway), mental illness can be innate as well as acquired through life experience. you have no arguments. you have ridiculous and awkward populist posturing and a pride the size of a continent.

you are pointing out that i'm dodging a topic, when it's the only thing you did for the bulk of this discussion (and others we've had). puny joke of a man. and i didn't even dodge it, just answer curtly and complain about irrelevance which is warranted in cases like this.
 

Brontosaurie

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oh shit i used the word car, now im a metaphysical car-street dualist!
 

redbaron

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Nice words but you're still dodging the question. Here it is again, a simple yes/no will do fine.

redbaron said:
Someone with an outwardly male body, possessing the brain morphology of a typical female believes they are ultimately a female, trapped inside a man's body.

Are they suffering a "pervasive failure of the mind"? Are they mentally ill?

Read, debate, respond.
 

Brontosaurie

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Yes, of fucking course. It's the proposition i am defending here from scratch. Phrasing it more dramatically alters nothing. Dude, w t f
 

Brontosaurie

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dualism, fkn hilarious. yes i use the word detergent and now i'm a metaphysical detergent/dirt dualist. Didn't think of that. Beat me to it. Wow.

all philosophers of mind are dualist to you now. the kind of truthwarp you resort to for your own pride is even zanier than the tinfoil hats you like beating.

you're norton antivirus trying to mow the lawn
 

cheese

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Bronto, I'm not sure yet why you think it's mental illness if:
1) There are genuine sex differences in the brain
2) Transgenders possess the opposite sex brain

(iirc, the second at least isn't entirely true, but assume it for now)

Why does the body take precedence over the brain in defining which part of the whole is ill? Because sex is determined chromosomally, and the brain has failed to be feminised/masculinised enough? Or it isn't mapping the physical body correctly? Or what? If we transplanted a woman's brain into a man's body, would the resulting person be mentally ill?

There are a couple more parts to this question:

Trans people seem to run the gamut from feeling a complete disconnect from their bodies to being fine with their bodies and genitals, but identifying as and wanting to present as the opposite gender. The former I could understand as a "failure" of the brain to correctly map the body it's attached to - as in body integrity identity disorder where sufferers feel they have more limbs than they should. The latter I don't understand, as it seems to be primarily cultural/social.

Would the latter be mentally ill in any way? ie is gender presentation something that should be determined by physical sex, and if so why?
Secondly, what about people who identify as genderless, or genderfluid? Are they mentally ill?
 

Brontosaurie

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Bronto, I'm not sure yet why you think it's mental illness if:
1) There are genuine sex differences in the brain
2) Transgenders possess the opposite sex brain

(iirc, the second at least isn't entirely true, but assume it for now)

Why does the body take precedence over the brain in defining which part of the whole is ill? Because sex is determined chromosomally, and the brain has failed to be feminised/masculinised enough? Or it isn't mapping the physical body correctly? Or what? If we transplanted a woman's brain into a man's body, would the resulting person be mentally ill?

There are a couple more parts to this question:

Trans people seem to run the gamut from feeling a complete disconnect from their bodies to being fine with their bodies and genitals, but identifying as and wanting to present as the opposite gender. The former I could understand as a "failure" of the brain to correctly map the body it's attached to - as in body integrity identity disorder where sufferers feel they have more limbs than they should. The latter I don't understand, as it seems to be primarily cultural/social.

Would the latter be mentally ill in any way? ie is gender presentation something that should be determined by physical sex, and if so why?
Secondly, what about people who identify as genderless, or genderfluid? Are they mentally ill?

i consider the mind a tool for the body or rather a tool for the survival of the organism. i wouldn't use a strict chromosomal definition for all intents and purposes, but a mind (or brain) that is self-aware of the sex its body doesn't have is, as you say, not mapping the physical body correctly. this holds true regardless of whether the brain in question has a corresponding detectable abnormality in morphology. it's still mapping the wrong anatomy, no matter how hardcore it is about it. to arrive at a position where mind takes precedence, i think one would have to accept actual dualism, ascribing transcendence to the mind rather than emergence.

about culturally imposed transsexuality, that is also a mental illness but with other etiology and implications of course."genderfluid" is a way of talking about sex coded tendencies as a spectrum, a result of lower prejudice. mental illness may or may not be involved. it could be a healthy way of securing personal integrity in our times, or it could be a confusion similar to culturally imposed transsexuality. personally i think i might have considered myself a genderfluid if it weren't for my mental illness. like paranoia, low self esteem, vicious cycles etc.
 

redbaron

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Brontosaurie said:
but a mind (or brain) that is self-aware of the sex its body doesn't have is, as you say, not mapping the physical body correctly.

Uh, what?

To be honest I've never heard of a transgender denying the fact of their external body or mapping incorrectly.

Feeling that one's genitalia don't reflect and define one's internal sex is an entirely different thing to what you're talking about.

Brontosaurie said:
this holds true regardless of whether the brain in question has a corresponding detectable abnormality in morphology

Which just brings us back to the fact that the way you interpret this comes down to your own preference for a simplified understanding of sex, without any notion of gender - as opposed to a more complex but also more accurate and comprehensive one.

More and more research is showing that sexual identity correlates strongly with and is poasibly defined by physiology of the brain - which is as much a real part of the body as a penis or vagina.

It's not as simple as, "dick = man and vagina = woman, anything that falls outside of this paradigm is a mental illness". The reality is that brain structure plays a part in sexual identity not just for TG but for all people. There's no solid, evidence-based platform for labelling someone as mentally ill, simply because their sexual identity doesn't happen to fall in line with the function of their genitalia.
 

Brontosaurie

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not all levels of meta-cognition must be affected for it to constitute erroneous mapping/self-perception. we're not talking about psychosis.

of course brain structure is involved in sexual identity for all people. anything else would be very surprising, both intuitively and in the current neurological understanding. not sure what point you're making with this material. if it's brain structure, it can't be defective?

do you think i'm a car/street dualist?
 

Sabreena

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As for mental illnesses(psychology), that's subjectivity. Changes to reflect society. It's not that many years ago women where considered mentally on the level at children. Therefor unthinkable to have them vote, make decisions etc. This would translate to a rather severe mental disorder to stop developing at a teenage level. Blacks where considered more beast then man. But things change. Society changes. Mental illness changes. What was true, becomes false. Some people definitely need the protection a mental illness label can provide. But to label entire groups of very diverse people with a label that is not too highly regarded by most people(although, I quite like it), is too much for me.

This exactly. I see a lot of discussion on this thread about the experience of transgenderism and whether or not it's an illness, but what is a mental illness anyway?

By definition, having a mental illness means that you check a certain number of criteria in the DSM-V. This book is written by actual psychologists of the day and is updated every so often. Which means that the boundaries of what is "functional" and "disfunctional" change depending on the cultural context. In the past, the same behaviors that are pathologized today often caused a person to be killed, marked as an outsider, or thrown in an asylum. Now the labels are used to categorize people so that we can find ways to "cure" them.

For those of us who have been personally affected or work in the psych industry, it's insane (pun not indented) how much of the supposedly medical informtion we recieve is subjectively collected. There's no blood test that can tell you exactly what's going on in a person's head. Even the supposed cures (namely, medication) only works some of the time, and depends entirely on the person's assesment of themselves, or their parents/doctor's assumptions, if applicable. We don't know which receptors the medicine affects, or whether XYZ chemical is going to work for a person in ABC amount. (Full disclosure: I benefit in direct ways from the psych industry by having a psychiatrist for a dad and being a basket case myself.)

My point is that mental "disorders" are relative. You can tell others that their perceptions are inconsistent with reality, but that rests on the assumption that their reality is the same as yours.

The question is whether or not we should continue to construe transgenderism as a problem to be fixed by means of hormones, therapy etc, until the person is happy and can adjust to their new, "authentic" life. Unfortunately, our society is so obsessed with the sex = gender binary that having a mismatch between the two is unthinkable. Trans people who opt for changing their appearance by a sex change are unconciously promoting the idea that certain bodies go with certain characteristics and/or experiences.

But I think this is a situation where the individual's preference takes precedence over possible societal implications, and it's dehumanizing and rude to suggest that trans people's desires should not be taken seriously, or that there's a solution to fix it.

A "mental illness" is a rough measure of how well a person fits a social standard. Defined mostly by external standards, unless a person comes forth and says they have a problem that they want to fix. Functioning (and making big bucks) is all psychiatrists care about: if a person says they're happy and has good grades/makes friends/whatever, that person is doing WELL. Regardless of that person's internal state. Therapists are marginally better (some of them) in that they want you to actually think diferently, be more than you are now. But like the rest of humanity, they put you up to a ruler to judge whether or not you're "improving" or not.

In our society, having a purpose in life and being successful/fulfiilled etc is valued more than a percieved mismatch between the body you were born with and the body you identify with (well, in some circles.)

Since sex/gender incongruency is not an outwardly recognizable thing, a female CAN blend in as male, or vice versa, as long they are not in contact with people who knew them before the transition, and ID is not required at that particular moment. People have been doing for thousands of years.

So, no, I don't believe transgenderism is a "mental illness", necessarily.

Edit: Sorry. I didn"t mean to write an essay. But that's my thoughts.
 

Anling

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In a biological sense, it could be considered an illness or disorder in that something went wrong in development, but that doesn't mean that it needs to be stigmatized. The effected people usually are able to function just fine, though their feeling wrong in their body will probably still lead many them to therapy to figure themselves out. But that does not necessitate a diagnosis of some disorder.

So, on the one hand, they are different to how things are supposed to work biologically, but it doesn't really change their ability to be productive members of society. We do not need every member to reproduce, etc. to help society to continue past our generation.

Rereading this, I notice I've just gone in circles. No matter how much I try to edit this it's still blah.
 
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