The INTP's coming of age

[Wisp]

Well, I was talking the IRC, and I had a slew of thoughts. They go as follow:

INTPs have a very high capacity for fucked-up-ness. We have a penchant for clarity, and a state of emotional blindness and immaturity. The well-developed INTP will develop this into a balanced and devoted search for Truth, guided by a developed sense of ethics and worldview, developed by a healthy serving of inner values and logical reasoning, creating a balanced individual. However, some INTPs do not become this quasi-angelic being I just described. Some INTPs hide in caves, searching the internet for truth. That's me, and probably the rest of us here.

Going back to the very first sentence, some INTPs do not develop. We cannot find truth, and our emotions become so fucked up that we can no longer deal with them, even as we refuse to admit that they are a problem, are relevant, or that we even have them. We go crazy, depressed, and suicidal.

It's like when the INTP breaks, when we find out that we aren't perfect, before we've discovered our lack of perfection. So we continually running into intellectual walls. Not only is our self-esteem shot to hell by this, but we are also exceedingly arrogant during this time, as we still believe that we are perfect. And we shatter and break down. And some of us recover. Some of us never do.

It's like the INTP's coming of age, this breakdown.
Once we have it, we're ready to begin life.

I think.

 

[Toad]

Wow, nice thread.

I want to respond and tell you that you are right and that I have been through this fucked up stage. But that just sounds so hypocritical and egotistcal. Truth is, I have made great progress but I still feel that I am still in the learning stage.

One of my biggest fears, as you have pointed out, is that I will never fully develop.

You also say that we search the internet to find truth and that we won't be able to find truth on the internet. I think you are incorrect in that statement. What is truth? How do you find it? I think truth is knowledge and understanding of yourself. I think we find it by doing what we all have been doing. Taking tests and reading about ourselves.

Of course this can only take us so far. I think the next step is to use and apply what we have learned to our life.

So let me break down the stages of my life to you guys.

14-16: My ignorant stage. I was doing whatever I wanted because I was not taught well. I had low self esteem and was hanging out with the wrong crowd. I succumbed to peer pressures.

16-17: Basic Training Stage. I was sent to military school. Here I learned about ethics, boundaries, rules, structure, discipline, etc.

17-19: Test Stage. After I finished military school, I felt that I was ready to tackle the world. I thought I knew it all. I had learned a lot. I learned how to work hard, how to follow instructions, and all that great stuff employers are looking for. I applied everything I learned to my first job and school. Yet, after a year and a half I started to feel empty.

19-22: This is the most important part of my life. I call it, The Lost Years. Not because I felt that I was losing anything, but more that I felt that I was lost and trying to find where I belonged. This could also be called my experimental stage. I experimented with almost everything. Drugs, sex, and parties are the three words to describe it.

22-present: ? Stage. I don't know what to call this stage in my life because I am still progressing through it. I am learning more about myself then ever before. I am taking all my life experiences and just funneling through them like a text book. This may be my final stage before I enter my adulthood.

In all the stages I listed, my mindset was that I fucking knew it all. The only stage where I am sure that I really know nothing is my current one. I have come to the realization that I really don't know anything.

In this current stage, I can say I am completely broken down.

 

[eudemonia]

It's like when the INTP breaks, when we find out that we aren't perfect, before we've discovered our lack of perfection. So we continually running into intellectual walls. Not only is our self-esteem shot to hell by this, but we are also exceedingly arrogant during this time, as we still believe that we are perfect. And we shatter and break down. And some of us recover. Some of us never do.

It's like the INTP's coming of age, this breakdown.
Once we have it, we're ready to begin life.

I think.

I identify with this, Wisp. And it was nicely put - very insightful. I went to a talk last week and the speaker was the leader of a church in the UK where the average age was around 26. He just loves those in their 20s. He says they are supremely arrogant, don't know anything but think they do and just full of iconoclasm, creativity, innovation, energy and leadership. He believes that the world progresses by means of young people in their 20s. It's an interesting idea and I have some sympathy with it. However,I feel I am just coming of age in my late 40's which is a time full of creativity and energy for me. Like you said, I searched for TRUTH in my younger years and found it in communism. Lost that when I realised that life was more complicated than a theory. Then lost my way (a nihilistic and very materialistic phase). It was only when I had kids that I started to grow up really - learning all that stuff about empathy, compassion, tolerance, complexity, integrity etc. Now I feel capable to make a contribution. A couple of things that kept me going through all these years were facing my feelings, honouring what they were telling me and acting on that learning; my husband and, tbh, in my later years my faith, it helped give me the conviction that my life meant something. So whatever I felt at any one time I kept trudging on convinced that life was going to get better some time. I agree, if INTPs can face their own fears (which are often about the loss of control through 'not knowing' or through 'emotional vulnerability') then life just gets better and better.

 

[Beat Mango]

I've realised my problems extend beyond mere INTPness, however I'll share anyway: I'm 25, and I'm not sure if my life has gotten better or worse with age. I'm better able to cope with the demands of life in some ways, but at the same time the problems that created my need for coping skills seem to have gotten worse (that, or the demands form life are stronger with adulthood). I had a bit of a breakdown earlier in the year and it's hardly been smooth sailing since. Maybe I just haven't hit rock bottom yet.

(Oh gosh why do I feel like I'm in an AA meeting lol...)

 

[Artifice Orisit]

We cannot find truth, and our emotions become so fucked up that we can no longer deal with them, even as we refuse to admit that they are a problem, are relevant, or that we even have them. We go crazy, depressed, and suicidal.

Been there, trying to be stoic, constantly pushing everyone away, so focused on trying to fix myself as though I was some sort of malfunctioning machine, afraid of people and their illogical behaviour, afraid of what I couldn't understand, only knowing that their emotions were hurting me in some inexplicable way.

It's like when the INTP breaks, when we find out that we aren't perfect, before we've discovered our lack of perfection. So we continually running into intellectual walls. Not only is our self-esteem shot to hell by this, but we are also exceedingly arrogant during this time, as we still believe that we are perfect. And we shatter and break down. And some of us recover. Some of us never do.

Been here too, been broken down a lot, enough to no longer assume I can't be broken down anymore, now I'm torn between holding onto what few scraps of dignity I have left by the justification that some confidence is needed in order to be function and being terrified that I'm self soothing too much, thus setting myself up for further breaking down.

So here I am, broken down, now how do I recover? What is recovery?

@-Toad
I'm 19 but not the partying type, the stages you have listed make sense and I can relate to them somewhat, although it seems you and I have taken very different paths in life. Drugs have little to no interest for me, I only drink alcohol for the taste and cannot stand inebriated people or bars, and I'll admit to being a virgin (...technically, also I'm male) with no intention of changing that anytime soon.

I could easily live in a monastery, provided there's no holy anti-atheist force-field protecting it.

 

[Beat Mango]

^ Gee I admire your integrity Cog. You don't seem to have that urge to be different, to be something other than what you are, that has plagued me since I was old enough to think? What I mean is, I've always tried to be like everyone else. Tried to laugh when they laugh, tried to dress how they dress. I'm happier when they seem to accept me. Eg I initially hated alcohol and bars too, but then went through a long phase of trying to fit in in such places. You seem to be strong enough to live on your own terms, I respect that.

 

[Artifice Orisit]

...you've lost me, to be different that me or different to my peers?

For the former, I've openly discussed having an arm removed so I could attach a modular replacement and experiment with the detached limb in order to discover how to keep flesh alive by completely artificial means for extended periods if not indefinitely.
So yeah, I'm quite dissatisfied with myself.

For the latter, I've always been worried about and proud of my idiosyncrasies, torn between wanting the security of obscurity and my misanthropic attitude towards the “average” guy.

 

[Beat Mango]

Yeah sorry, I realised my post was a bit thin after I wrote it so I just edited some more into it. Another example of me trying to be like "them" more recently is going to church. I've started going in order to get a hold of that positivity or lightness of being or whatever else it is that other people have that I don't, and it's worked a little, it gives me a bit of a kick, but I still always have that nagging feeling that I'm just... different.

 

[Vegard Pompey]

I am standing in a room surrounded by four intellectual walls, wondering which one of them I should attempt to tunnel through.

 

[Artifice Orisit]

Ah well, when you think humans are little more than overgrown bald apes with a penchant for violence and inventing new ways of abusing each other it's actually quite easy to avoid a conformist mindset.

For the record, this is how I used to think, nowadays I just don't trust people.

@-Banana Mango
Kudos for going to church with an open mind, more kudos for taking it with some salt.

 

[Seducer of the Homeless]

i would like to confirm my status...


lol...coming...he said 'coming'...

 

[cheese]

Been here too, been broken down a lot, enough to no longer assume I can't be broken down anymore, now I'm torn between holding onto what few scraps of dignity I have left by the justification that some confidence is needed in order to be function and being terrified that I'm self soothing too much, thus setting myself up for further breaking down.

There is so much conflicting advice on how to deal. We're either blind or too perceptive. Not knowing which makes everything so much more of a pain.

The only thing we can do is whatever we think is best at that point. For me this means taking things one step at a time. I may be in a tunnel, but there's an end somewhere - permanent or not - and all I can do for now is keep feeling my way along.

 

[Ermine]

We cannot find truth, and our emotions become so fucked up that we can no longer deal with them, even as we refuse to admit that they are a problem, are relevant, or that we even have them. We go crazy, depressed, and suicidal.

It's like when the INTP breaks, when we find out that we aren't perfect, before we've discovered our lack of perfection. So we continually running into intellectual walls. Not only is our self-esteem shot to hell by this, but we are also exceedingly arrogant during this time, as we still believe that we are perfect. And we shatter and break down. And some of us recover. Some of us never do.

It's like the INTP's coming of age, this breakdown.
Once we have it, we're ready to begin life.

Overall, it feels like I'm on the edge of a huge waterfall. I keep trying to predict whether it will be a violent series of rapids or Niagara Falls. While I'm not as immature as I used to be, I still can't say I've been through any extreme hardship and/or breakdowns. Either that, or I'm just too stoic for my own good. It's sometimes hard to tell.

At least I'm to the point that I've gotten over not being perfect (though I still prefer being above average in all areas I'm interested in). I think I'm still in the stage of recognizing all my problems.

Yeah, 'Mango, this does seem like an AA meeting. In that case, what is our "alcohol"? Is it the intellectualism or the percieved perfection?

*listens to Glass Prison by Dream Theater*

 

[Agent Intellect]

one problem i've always had is that i've never seen any 'perfection' in myself. i have never let myself get away with anything. most people seem to be able to rationalize their actions, or be 'in denial' about themselves (something very foreign to me). but for me, i've always been well aware of my flaws, and i mentally/emotionally punish myself for them. i guess its always been my awareness of a lack of perfection thats caused me so much grief.

 

[eudemonia]

I feel like I'm intruding a bit on this conversation and am not sure what I can add but I feel I should say something.

In my view we all need something to make us feel fully human and at home in this world. None of us are born complete. Basically we all need other people - that includes INTPs. In fact I think that INTPs need people more than others - not lots of people but a few very special people (or even just one person) who understand them, affirm them and value them. When you give up looking for that person/or people then you give up on yourself.

You have got to believe that there are people out there who are like you and who like you (even though they don't even know you yet!). You've got to keep on looking for them.

In the meantime going to different places (like Banana Mango) gives you the opportunity to practise your relationship and interpersonal skills. Just because people are not like you and they have different values doesn't mean you can't learn from them or even relate to them and maybe find someone who could become a mate INTPs have a tendency to despise people - I used to do this all the time. This is not a nice trait but is often a symptom of the fact that we do not feel accepted, so we don't accept others. It was a major revelation to me when I discovered that if I accepted others they were more likely to accept me with all my foibles and disarming traits. I know its difficult mixing with people who all seem to have different values to you and you can feel swamped, even mad, but sometimes you find the odd person you can relate to and who is having similar issues to you.

For me too, I had to learn that there were certain aspects of my personality that were unattractive and really off-putting. I was seen as aloof, stuck up, aggressive, arrogant and tbh I was (stuck up was really inverted snobbery on my part). When I started forgiving people for not being INTPs it got better

And finally there is the constant search for a home. I can honestly say I have only recently found a place where I feel really at home (in a university). But I never stopped looking and as I got older I learned to extract learning and eventually good relationships from every difficult situation I found myself in.

I wish you all well in your search and I hope you never give up on people whoever they are (including yourselves)

EDIT: AI - people cannot bear perfect people. Flawed people are much easier to interact with, nicer to be with, less threatening and much more fun.

 

[Wisp]

Toad, I didn't say that you couldn't find truth on the internet. You can, but in many ways the internet is counterproductive to growth. However, it can be a great asset as well, if used in a balanced fashion. (There's a whole thread's worth of discussion here)

Also, to be perfect is a flaw. Don't take it too hard, AI.

I will have more to say later, but I have to skip out now.

 

[walfin]

When nia speaks, INTPf listens. :P

None of us is perfect, but none of us is really fucked up either. I remember this line from a TV show - "Saying you're the worst person in the world is just as bad as saying you're the best. You're giving yourself a position you don't deserve".

I've never felt that I didn't accept others. I can accept them. They can't accept me. This is the case even when I'm among INTPs (which is why I left INTPc; I couldn't even attribute the dislike to some irritating irl traits that I have).

About finding someone who can accept you - I suppose probability alone dictates that an older INTP is more likely to have found people who can accept them, since an older INTP has met more people, existed for longer, taken on more roles. The hope that life will get better keeps me alive.

 

[Inappropriate Behavior]

The greatest thing that ever happened to me was when I stopped caring. Not apathy, I've always had a little of that, but caring about how I view myself and may be viewed by others. Perfect doesn't come into the equation really, although I suppose I still fantasize from time to time about doing things perfectly, I keep the thought in the back of my mind that it really isn't me so don't put stock in these fantasies.

I know I have value. I know my value isn't vital. The world will go on without me as it did before me. I'm not going to appear in Civilizations V as a 'great person' and deep down, I really don't want to. I will leave no tombstone or memorial, no one will flock to my grave. I still know that I can make a difference though. A small difference but one of value nonetheless. When I became happy (contented) with that, life became so much easier both within my own mind and in dealing with others (when you are comfortable in your own skin, others are comfortable being around you).

 

[eudemonia]

I couldn't agree more IB. I think it was only last year when I realised that I didn't want to be remembered for anything - and what a liberation that was. It was one of those unforgettable moments in my life.

 

[didyouknow]

This thread inspired me to write an autobiography for some reason... "Another Unremarkable Life Story".

I suppose, it was kind of like an awakening. Up until I was 6 I was actually quite outgoing, a normal child. After a good dose of childhood drama, I became "exceedingly bright at schoolwork, but mute, dull and naive in the social world. My emotions were blank, my mind robotic."
Then I grew up, got some friends and became semi-normal. In early high school I was arrogant, a lazy genius. I never did my work until the day it was due and got As for every assignment.
After changing to a school for advanced students I lost some of the arrogance as my school grades dropped due to the difficulty level. However, I made up for this through acting as the class clown. To boost my ego, I suppose.
When I left that school everything went down the drain. This is where I would pinpoint the coming of age process beginning. The only word I can use to describe it is 'chaos'. My emotions were a swirling mass lurking beneath the surface of my day to day life. My social life receded to a point lower than I'd had since I was a child. I lost my faith. People continued to tell me I was intelligent but I ceased to believe it. My grades faltered and I couldn't keep up with my classmates. All this potential I thought I had seemed to fade away.

This inevitably led to comparisons to those around me so I could judge my own competence. The forum really didn't help in that area. The amazing minds on this forum is a constant reminder of my own inadequacy but also a source of inspiration. Which also leads me to wonder... is it better to be ignored or hated? Hmm...

Anyway, I noticed this primarily in my religion class where we were talking about the meaning of life. My answer was "The only meaning we can attribute to this 'existence' is a delusional self-importance given to ourselves.". Considering the looks on the faces of my classmates as I read this aloud I suppose it was a rather cynical thing to say. Their answers were mostly nice things like love and family. Weird.

I seriously hope this is the path to development, otherwise I'm screwed.

Note: if I spell anything wrong, or make illogical statements, it's probably because I haven't slept properly in months and right now the screen is making cool dances with the pixels so I can't read what the hell I'm writing. Also if this doesn't make any sense and I'm ranting like a lunatic, delete this post.

 

[IfloatTHRUlife]

Really nice thread Wisp, and i have to comment on when Eudemonia said you need those few special people. This is very true and, i was lucky. I was raised with an INTJ brother that was just a little older then me and, although we didnt get along when we were younger due to conflicting focuses... mine being on analytical observation or "truth" , and his being on practical compitense. When i got a little older though, maybe around 14, the world set in and it was because i had began smoking weed, and had a social focus because of people i enevitably met. The thing is that my brother was there the entire time and we both knew all the same people and had similar logical views of people behavior and i rationalised that was just the way things were. Im now 19 and i have a .. not exactly well planned out life.. but that is mostly because its so hard to find work where i live. But i have met a girl i actually really get along with, she is an ISTJ. We dont have any initial plans to move in togeter because i cant afford to move from my poor little economiclly torn town to the city she lives in and she has to stay there because of family and her education.

So where this leaves me with problems that i do know of, and struggle with because they mostly consist of me not being able to find a job i would be compitent at because i cant focus on things that dont interest me, or if the enviroment it too hectic and demanding.

The brighter side of things is that, my brother always being there with similar views and now my girlfriend who i believe has a very good understanding of me, and i know her probably better then she would think. (INTP understanding cabability + MBTI knowledge = win) I have always had a person there to confirm im not alone in this wild thing called life.

And it is when you know your not alone that you have a very optimistic view of life regardless of the times that you might get sad or depressed becasue of current problems.

And i know i have been ranting probably and im sorry for this, but i must say this last thing. I think the only problem with this breakdown becasue of knowing your not perfect, is your view on what perfect is, perfect is an impossibility, the intellectual barriers you say we run into are expected.. but look at it this way... you would be amazed how many people run into these "barriers" and dont even know it.. you shouldnt cut yourself short because you are smart enough to know when your wrong or incapable of doing something. The great thing about INTPs is they learn through their own observations.. so inevitably over time they amass a very clear view of the world and what is most important in life, whether it happens earlier because it is forced or if it is later through exercising your intuition.

The internet is definately one of the best ways to create a more accurate world view too. While there are probably better ways of learning any one certain bit of information then looking at it on the internet but when you cant learn it the best way, skimming through enough bits of information from different sources on the internet and making a conclusion of waht is right for yourself, is just as good, so you can learn anything you want, from your seat.. while its not the most socially acceptable way of learning, it is not the least credible.

*hides after leaving a note apologizing for ranting so long*

(also i must add, my girlfriend is an ISFJ, not ISTJ, but yes.. continue)

 

[Tyria]

I think those moments (and epiphanies) are the most important times in a person's life.

In my opinion, a breakdown is hitting rock bottom and knowing that you are there. It's forcing yourself to acknowledge the state that you are in, and realizing the series of events that have culminated in this moment. To me, breakdowns are about losing control and becoming a child again who feels lost. It is in these moments when we feel overwhelmed and lost that we can bring about lasting and positive permanent changes. I feel sorry for those who have been (or are) in these situations and feel that they have no one to try to help them out of it.

When I was much younger, I was a complete idealist. I thought that the world operated on the same principles and values that I was brought up with. After going to high school, I began to doubt that this was the case. In college, I confirmed that the world operates on a different set of principles, and that people are either out for themselves, or get caught in the stampede for wealth, fame, coolness, drugs, sex, and a world without responsibility. Since my values didn't click with people my own age, I began to wonder if there was something wrong with the way that I was thinking: I saw many people having what seemed to be a good time chasing all these things, but I knew that those things were just things. They weren't what was really important in life. At the time, I wondered why doing the right thing wasn't as glamorous or celebrated. It felt cheap and undesirable; was something wrong with the world values or with my values?

I'm still working on this, but I have found that not thinking about these kinds of things to be beneficial in it's own way (after all, you would run yourself ragged it you kept thinking about it 24/7). Every answer that could come up seems to have its own counterpoint, and I think you could get lost in an endless sea of point-counterpoint. In the end, I think you have to decide what works for you and what doesn't. 'Right' and 'wrong' may not be the best way to approach the situation (although that doesn't mean that you should throw morality out of the window either).

Argh. Human problems are complicated because humans are involved.

 

[Beat Mango]

Yeah, 'Mango, this does seem like an AA meeting. In that case, what is our "alcohol"? Is it the intellectualism or the percieved perfection?

*listens to Glass Prison by Dream Theater*

Well I am ennegream type 5, so for me it would be the intellectualism and my guess would be that it would be the same for most INTPs.

DT have some good lyrics don't they (and as you probably know, The Glass Prison is part of a series of songs that are based on the 12 step program, as Mike Portnoy has/is a member of AA). How about Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence? Or no, that's going a bit far...

 

[Toad]

The hope that life will get better keeps me alive.

Sigh...same here man...

 

[Toad]

So how do u propose we INTP's come of age? Do you think we can create a system of living that will eventually lead us to truth and through trugh a better understanding of life? Or do you think that every INTP has to find his own way?

 

[echoplex]

I think I'm starting to come to a point. I'm not sure what that is or what to call it, but it's something. I think much of it is the humbling realization that you need people after all, and maybe everyone else (aka the dumb ones, lol) were right all along. You start to see what you have in common with others and how you're not really that different. You're just another ball of meat and you're just as stupid as everyone else, you're just better at concealing it. While everyone else seems almost proud of how stupid they are, you've been hiding it for years.

'Cause I think that's it. You see your own stupidity. After all that time of pointing out the flaws of the world, you see your own. You realize that you can't totally escape things like subjectivity, bias, dependence, and absolute soul-encompassing infatuation. (never mind the last one)

 

[Toad]

I also think it has a lot to do with FEELINGS.

Do you guys think as INTP's age, we become happier people? If that is true, do you think that our opposite, ESFJ's, becomes more depressed? My mom is an ESFJ and it seems the older she gets the more she realizes how alone she is. She is totally obsessed with religion and dieing now.

 

[Razare]

The well-developed INTP will develop this into a balanced and devoted search for Truth, guided by a developed sense of ethics and worldview, developed by a healthy serving of inner values and logical reasoning, creating a balanced individual. However, some INTPs do not become this quasi-angelic being I just described.

I'm angelic? ... where's my wings?

It's like the INTP's coming of age, this breakdown.
Once we have it, we're ready to begin life.

I think.

Seriously, though, I had two major breakdowns in my life before finding the right path. Even while on the right path, I was often miserable. During the second break down, I already knew my personal truth, just the rest of me hadn't matured enough to make me whole.

Once you've grasped your personal truth, you still must stay in touch with your emotional side, even if they are dreary and depressed emotions. Like a person peering down into a chasm, you have to observe without falling in. Analyze them to see if there's anything you can do, but if there isn't, you just have to bear it, without breaking or turning away.

----------------

echoplex:

I'm not sure what that is or what to call it, but it's something. I think much of it is the humbling realization that you need people after all, and maybe everyone else (aka the dumb ones, lol) were right all along.

Yes, precisely, this is why the dumb ones among us find happiness so easily; they never bothered to over think it.

They also find misery quite easily and don't have the brains to drag themselves out of it. If there's one positive about being an INTP, it is the ability of introspection and learning from our own mistakes. We are completely critical of ourselves, which means absolute honesty. Once we build an internal foundation, it stands stronger than others because there are no lies, or illusions about oneself. (After we've had the break-down of course, before it, much of our existence is a lie.)

 

[Ermine]

And where's Saffy when you need her? Or is she just quasi-angelic?

 

[Sugarpop]

one problem i've always had is that i've never seen any 'perfection' in myself. i have never let myself get away with anything. most people seem to be able to rationalize their actions, or be 'in denial' about themselves (something very foreign to me). but for me, i've always been well aware of my flaws, and i mentally/emotionally punish myself for them. i guess its always been my awareness of a lack of perfection thats caused me so much grief.

I recognize this more than I did the OP. I never really saw myself as perfect; actually I've been profoundly insecure for a very long time. If I have experienced anything like a Coming of Age yet, it must be when I started to examine myself more deeply and tried to understand my feelings as something more than annoying defects that could not be understood. It was only then, well into my teens, that I started to even think of myself as insecure.

My emotional and intellectual development has been a rather steady and gradual reform ever since, though some external events might have caused jumps and starts every now and then. I think I'm moving forward in some sense, or at least my understanding of myself is. To live is to learn - about life mostly.

For quite some time, I have been attributing my rather unrealistic ideals of perfection to my upbringing. I remember far less praise than criticism, and the latter was often given out of general irritation rather than due to actual mistakes. This thread, among other things, has given me a more nuanced perspective. If INTPs are born rather than made, these insecurities must be a natural part of my development.

lol...coming...he said 'coming'...

Hehehehehehe, yeah... It's like sex and stuff.

 

[Razare]

So how do u propose we INTP's come of age? Do you think we can create a system of living that will eventually lead us to truth and through trugh a better understanding of life? Or do you think that every INTP has to find his own way?

It has to be different for every INTP. We never quite see eye-to-eye on this forum. There's always a different shade of understanding or a hole in someone's logic that someone points out. We all understand differently, which means the answer is different for each of us.

I also think it has a lot to do with FEELINGS.

Do you guys think as INTP's age, we become happier people? If that is true, do you think that our opposite, ESFJ's, becomes more depressed? My mom is an ESFJ and it seems the older she gets the more she realizes how alone she is. She is totally obsessed with religion and dieing now.

I don't know about INTP's becoming happy as they get older. I don't think they'd be on this forum much if they were truly happy, except for maybe EditorOne. So it's quite possible there's a lot of aged INTP's out there really enjoying themselves and we here have just begun to understand the mysteries of our personality through life. It just might be an exploration into new levels of understanding that we haven't yet imagined.

ESFJ's are well... hmm... I don't know an old one. I think an ESFJ is likely to conform to what people their age are supposed to do, according to their society. Upholding tradition is their thing, if they're supposed to be less enthusiastic and more melancholy, I could see them playing the role.

 

[Wisp]

Whew, so much posting, so little time.

Anyways, my generic prescruption for the post-breakdown recovery process is quite simple.

Live. Learn. Love.

All in equal measures. Even that last one. Obviously the ways to go about this are different for each person, and this is an over-simplified solution, but hey.

I feel I should clarify a little, the idea in the OP was not that you ave a single momentous event, of shift, it usually is more of an ongoing thing. You can usually tell when you're coming out of it though. It feels... peaceful. Good word there. To be honest, I think the average INTP supremely undervalues peace. Not the generic peace, but peace of the mind. We can so frenetically try to find the truth, that in our EMOTIONAL desperation for truth, we break all the tenets we claim to hold so dear. Perfection, clarity, emotionlessness. Only one of these holds any value at all, but it can take a long time to find that out. When you know that, and it becomes a part of your being, you achieve peace, and the 'coming of age' I describe. I think my original description was a tad limited.

Finding people, and doing stuff with them provides food for thought, and emotional growth, especially since, as an INTP, damn near everyone is better at the whole feelings thing than we are. The idea is to kick back and have some fun sometimes, instead of stressing about finding the perfect truth, all of the time, or worse, perfection of self. The only thing you'll gain is a sense of worthlessness. If you garner truth from life as it comes, not only will you have fun, but you'll learn more in the long run anyways. It's just more efficient.

~Thoughts from the mind of Wisp.

 

[IfloatTHRUlife]

To be completely honest, i dont know if i made this clear in my post.. but i have absolutely no craving for perfection, and i find it odd that every one of you has mentioned it. It might just be me being picky since i have never considered anything perfect, there is always something better so nothing can be "best" or "perfect". I do however, have high expectations and demand a certain level of competence from the people around me.. that not many people meet, but i have grown to just plain not care.

Something i think is worth mentioning is i have been smoking Marijuana the entire time i have been going through the stages where i think i have matured the most. This, while i may be wrong, i believe has made life easier for me since it allows me to kind of take a step back and look at things from more then just my own perspective, which is something i see as being very important in exercising an INTPs extroverted intuition. And like i mentioned in my previous post, this is what makes for a more balanced INTP.

Finally i must mention, i would consider myself a very healthy INTP, i do see many of the problems normally associated with stressed or underdeveloped INTPs but out of all the INTPs i have talked to around my age, i would easily say i am the most at "peace", i notice most of them struggle with the "truth" of most of thier thoughts or feelings. They have issues with everything from choosing and/or defending a religion, relationship issues that they try to avoid, social issues such as social acceptance and thing like that. Where i on the other hand am an athiest, im in a rather healthy and open relationship, and i whole heartedly accept my social issues, and i am very comfortable with all of these things.

So im not saying i am perfect, i either have the same problems as most of you.. or possibly have more problems, i am just very calm and accepting of the world. You have to be patient with life, recognise what you want commit yourself to it. (something i have actually ran into with younger INTP friends, which i know i had problems with when i was younger and try to help them with is, they think the world should be handed to them. And all i ever really have to tell them is.. stop being such a crybaby if your not willing do do anything for yourself, you can be the smartest and most comprehensive person in the world and if you dont put yourself to use.. nobody is going to just come hold your hand and tell you what to do.)

yet again.. much babble from good ole' Float, but as always, i have a last bit to add. I have always taken into consideration.. the functions of the INTP all lead us to be the kind of people to observe and analyze.. and in a time where there is very little that needs to be "discovered", there is very little use for people like us.. all that is really needed in this world is people to work and sustain civilization.

But something to keep in mind is, there will always be new people, who dont understand things as well as we do, and teaching others and explaining the complexities of what you know and understand, can be just as rewarding to you as making personal discoveries.

please let me know if im just talking a bunch of craziness maybe im just some pothead genius who is in denial, or maybe i really am happy.. you decide.. im too lazy to.

(and i apologize for my terrible grammar, im too lazy to apply proper english into my everyday speech and sometimes my slang spills over into my non-verbal communication)

Byebye LOL

 

[Toad]

Damn dude! Your posts are too long...can you summarize it for me?

 

[cheese]

Since my values didn't click with people my own age, I began to wonder if there was something wrong with the way that I was thinking

Every answer that could come up seems to have its own counterpoint, and I think you could get lost in an endless sea of point-counterpoint. In the end, I think you have to decide what works for you and what doesn't. 'Right' and 'wrong' may not be the best way to approach the situation (although that doesn't mean that you should throw morality out of the window either).

maybe everyone else (aka the dumb ones, lol) were right all along. You start to see what you have in common with others and how you're not really that different.
You see your own stupidity.

This is one of the most important points here I think. We try to reason our way to truth about incredibly complex things that cannot be as easily fiddled with as scientific experiments. We cannot control every variable, and there are a damn lot of them, so every piece of advice runs up against another, and neither is enough to cover all aspects of every possible situation.

We have to let go. We won't reach the whole truth logically. There isn't some system we can devise, or some sure-fire way of dealing with life. And the 'dumb' ones were right, sure, but only incidentally. It seems like a bit of a pity that it's taken most of us the better part of our lives to reason to the point others are biologically programmed to start at, but I take heart that my sort-of-conviction is born of experience and thought, and therefore more precious; it's been earned.

I also think it's amazing watching the older, more established INTPs interact here. Most if not all seem to have ended up as more thoughtful versions of the rest of the moral/emotional world. It's interesting observing how even people like us come full circle (yeah, it's someone else's circle....whatever).

The best/worst part of this is - you're not going to be convinced by what we say. If you haven't lived it, you're not going to know it. It's logic or experience knocking you over the head that does it for INTPs, and since pure reason doesn't seem to get us very far in this game, you're going to have to rely on the latter. This is why having loving support is so important though - INTPs start off as foetuses in life, and we need protection and nourishment while we make our slow, painful mental and experiential navigations. Having recourse to one thing in our life that doesn't need to be proven is very helpful.

Ok, if none of this made sense, it just means you're young and stupid.
[/cheat]

 

[Deleted member 1424]

I have all these defensive measure that stem from fears, but no one is attacking me anymore. Yet I still lash out, and I'm still on edge ready to parry imagined blows. I've forced myself to be strong, but now it just feels like a charade and pretense. What am I even fighting against? What terrible thing could possibly happen if I let down my guard?

It also feels like the closer I get to my ideal (not that I'm even close), the more I end up unintentionally hurting others. I'm like a naive little child, stepping on the feeling of others while searching for meaning and purpose. I find myself trying to disconnect from everyone, not because I hate them but because I don't want to be responsible for their pain, which I know I'll cause. I'm consumed by guilt and I'm tired of it.

We are all struggling. It's part of being human.

[This is probably off-topic, but this thread made me think of what 'walls' in my psyche I'm trying to bore through.]

 

[Citizen X]

I'm going through a similar period at the moment. I'm 27 y/o and I have been thinking a lot about my age as of recently. Most of the people I know are married or with partners, so i no longer hang out with them since they keep to themselves and I don't frequent my ex' friends, who for a time were mine.

Right now most of the people I interact with are on their early twenties, from my Krav Maga classes, so I'm the "old coot" of the bunch. Most people actually think I'm younger (23, 24) because I don't look late 20's. However, since I'm the older guy now I have been thinking a lot about what I have done in my twenties and I feel hopelessly let down. I haven't done anything to make myself proud, at all and most of the praise I receive for anything I do I consider it forced or not merited at all.

I have a hunch things will be quite interesting next year, I feel like I'm about to crash headfirst against something, but I don't know what it is. Despite my age, I still think I haven't really grown up in some areas.

I'm constantly on edge, like Adair, preparing myself for some imaginary blows that will probably never come and most of this comes from insecurities from earlier years.

I'm my worst critic, and I suppose that's pretty much the norm with everyone here, but sometimes I border on self destruction and keep myself down because of my own faults and failures. I have actually forced myself not to be that hard, and it has been working, but there's still much to do.

Somebody in another forum told me I should probably try and do some work in an isolated Argentine camp in the Arctic. It actually sounds like a plan; I like being isolated to think about my worries.

 

[Latro]

I have all these defensive measure that stem from fears, but no one is attacking me anymore. Yet I still lash out, and I'm still on edge ready to parry imagined blows. I've forced myself to be strong, but now it just feels like a charade and pretense. What am I even fighting against? What terrible thing could possibly happen if I let down my guard?

It also feels like the closer I get to my ideal (not that I'm even close), the more I end up unintentionally hurting others. I'm like a naive little child, stepping on the feeling of others while searching for meaning and purpose. I find myself trying to disconnect from everyone, not because I hate them but because I don't want to be responsible for their pain, which I know I'll cause. I'm consumed by guilt and I'm tired of it.

We are all struggling. It's part of being human.

[This is probably off-topic, but this thread made me think of what 'walls' in my psyche I'm trying to bore through.]

I can relate to some of this. I had a lot of social trouble as a kid, and after a while I learned how to make the trouble go away...but in the process I never learned to turn the trouble around and wind up meeting people, doing stuff with them, or even having a drive to do things other than my academic requirements, loafing around on the intertubes at home, and video games. Medication from 2001 to 2005 and World of Warcraft from 2005 to 2006 didn't help.

 

[Beat Mango]

^ The medication didn't help? What do you mean, it made things worse?

 

[Latro]

^ The medication didn't help? What do you mean, it made things worse?

I was medicated for social anxiety disorder. It did what it was intended to do: I was able to interact with people enough to function in a middle school environment, whereas previously I failed to do so. (In 2004 and 2005 I was in high school but by that time I was on like 5 mg of Paxil, which is basically negligible). On the other hand, it stabilized my emotions (i.e. lowered my highs and raised my lows) to the point that I was just continuously content for no explicable reason. This left me with pretty much no drive to actually do anything to try to, e.g., improve my social aptitude. Fast forward to now and I have about 2 friends, haven't had anything remotely resembling a date ever, and am actually somewhat disheartened at how easy undergrad is.

Basically I shouldn't have been medicated beyond about 2001 or maybe 2002, should NEVER have gotten a 30 mg dose (I had 30 mg for a few weeks at one point), and should've put more effort into psychotherapy instead of medication. Too late now.

 

[Beat Mango]

Yes I've had a similar experience with meds - they cure the symptoms but not the disease. I was on them from about 2000-07 for depression, and have recently gone back on them. I wish they would have told me about Zoloft's track record of destroying sex drives before I started on it, I might have never gone on it - oh well, too late now.

EDIT: hey what happened to your post, lol.

 

[Waterstiller]

Or do you think that every INTP has to find his own way?

Yes. And the way is most certainly inward.

It also helps immensely if you have people in your life that value what you value and thus validate you. INFP's in particular are great for helping to break through intellectual walls. It's worth the effort to find these people. It's worth the effort to distance yourself from people who don't value what you value.

I think for me it was a million little things that helped me put myself together again. Maybe most importantly was the idea that it doesn't matter that I'll never figure out what's going on. Not that I should stop looking.. but I try to just focus on the things I find beautiful and the rest will just sort of happen when it needs to. I try not to feel embarrassed for being oblivious about things; this is one of the more difficult things.

Nothing's perfect, truth is subjective, and you get to choose your view of reality. So take ownership of that and have some fun? Yeah?

/stupid bit of whatever. Don't mind me.. I'm actually really happy and I think I become delusional when I'm happy. I also kinda sorta met someone that I'm kinda sorta amazed by and kinda sorta getting to the point where I'm kinda sorta in a dreamy haze.

 

[loveofreason]

Hey... I feel a little happy/pleased for you, Waterstiller! Something good can happen, and it's happening to you!


I've resisted responding to this thread, wanting to let it play out for those with their wisdom and struggles to add...

but I keep wondering... "What Age?"

At which age dare we assume we have arrived; which age is the destination?

Does arriving entail a complacency of thought? Can we rest at night believing we now know the truth?

Does the world make sense and reality become a pliant thing responsive to our will?

Or is it never too late nor too often for Kali to come dancing into our lives, reaving apart sensibilities and meaning?

 

[Toad]

For some reason I feel like INTP's that have "arrived" would give off a certian presence. Like EditorOne or SQ...they just seem to be very wise. Maybe it is age, or maybe it is experience.

 

[hope]

I am broken. As a Linux Advocate mentioned, one does not always find truth in the real world-- as is the case for me(only on the internets can truth be found). I'm 16 -- "coming of age." I hide on my computer, looking up information on who I am, instead of searching for truth through my own eyes.
How did I end up wasted such prodigious amounts of time? Failing at real life. I used to like school, but then I discovered most teachers do not want you to think. The majority of teachers I've had have wanted nothing more than a rote regurgitation of the textbook's text. As a result of my attitude towards school, and other issues worsening as a result of my bad attitude , I missed the first half of school last year...
Truancy is bad. I'll never do it again;but, I did gain a plethora of information on many topics during my "vacation." I spent 24 hour days playing board games on the internets. I can beat you in Weichi, but all board games are a complete waste of time, which could be better used doing a multitude of important tasks. Sure, I can beat old people in a board game, but I can't beat anybody at life.
I am a perfectionist, but I can beat nobody at life. Paradox, no? Other than a paradoxical life, all I have is "a high capacity for fucked-up-ness."

 

[flow]

I've always wondered when I'd become an 'adult'. I've talked to my dad about it several times, complaining about the lack of proper cultural initiation to adulthood in our beloved america where most 'adults' are actually stuck in a perpetual state of adolescence (arrested development). I've come to the conclusion I won't really feel like an adult until I have children.. and even then, I'll probably feel very kiddish in my approach to parenting.

But a coming of age? I don't think one could ever realize that moment has happened until in retrospect. Perhaps we'll never feel we've come of age.. I'm sure EditorOne would say he's still waiting, but maybe not. I think if one does reach this threshold, it's simply because life has thrown them a seemingly insurmountable situation, and they overcame.

Here's my problem. I'm a chronic quitter. I've never really achieved anything. Everything I ever wanted to be as a child (I wanted to be a basketball player in the NBA) I gave up on before I could even attempt to realize such dreams. I quit basketball after my sophomore year in high school. I was small and underdeveloped, egotistical, and absolutely uncoachable. I'm trying to work on these things, trying to become coachable, trying to lose my ego.. but I can't change the past and how I handled things then. Problem is, I KEEP quitting. I dropped out of college in my final semester. I was fed up with my school, teachers, classmates, and the prospect of getting a lousy degree in general studies that I wouldn't even know what or where to apply it to. I dunno why I never seem to overcome the obstacles I face, but I will never give up on the biggest one: life. I could never commit suicide, I will never commit suicide, and I hope none of you do either. Life is hard, no one has it figured out, you'll never be satisfied with what you currently know and what you currently do not know... so just keep swimming..just keep swimming..

 

[eudemonia]

Hey... I feel a little happy/pleased for you, Waterstiller! Something good can happen, and it's happening to you!


I've resisted responding to this thread, wanting to let it play out for those with their wisdom and struggles to add...

but I keep wondering... "What Age?"

At which age dare we assume we have arrived; which age is the destination?

Does arriving entail a complacency of thought? Can we rest at night believing we now know the truth?

Does the world make sense and reality become a pliant thing responsive to our will?

Or is it never too late nor too often for Kali to come dancing into our lives, reaving apart sensibilities and meaning?

For me there is no 'age' and no 'arrived'. It's like your sig - traveller, there are no roads, roads are made by travelling. I feel comfortable travelling along that road with at least one person in this world who values me and with the idea that I have found a couple of truths that are core for me. A partner and a couple of truths and all else is up for grabs. Let Kali do what she must. I suppose the test would be - could I still say this if she did wreak her havoc. Who knows?

 

[Toad]

I think most of us feel that we arent finishing things too Flow...

 

[Kuu]

Adulthood is a lie. A stupid social fabrication of questionable usefulness, an arbitrary distinction for a set of extremely vague values and invisible hoops one must supposedly deal with to get the bragging rights to the dubious claim of "being mature" (whatever the fuck that is, anyway).

I propose we get rid of it. Let society be free from its mental shackles, out of its pathetic box, down from its high horse.

 

[Toad]

Adulthood is a lie. A stupid social fabrication of questionable usefulness, an arbitrary distinction for a set of extremely vague values and invisible hoops one must supposedly deal with to get the bragging rights to the dubious claim of "being mature" (whatever the fuck that is, anyway).

I propose we get rid of it. Let society be free from its mental shackles, out of its pathetic box, down from its high horse.

LoL I like your thinking. I can't agree with it, but I like it.