The INTP to ENTP project!

[boradicus]

I decided for the New Year that I was going to do my best to tackle problems by appropriating extroversion from my close cousin MBTI type, the ENTP!

I am and INTP, and if anyone is interested in this experiment, and what I/we uncover in the process please check out:

intp2entp.wikispaces.com

Thanks! =)

M

 

[shoeless]

sigh.

 

[Mello]

Adymus is about to shoot you in the face.

Edit: I was wrong. ;( I guess I should actually read through the stuff, first.

 

[warryer]

Adymus is about to shoot you in the face.

lol

i got that sense of impeding doom too

 

[boradicus]

Should I have posted under websites of interest or whatever that topic is called? I figure that this is appropriate here - but if it is not then I am sorry to have posted here and would like to mend my thread so that it is in the appropriate place.

Note: I have seen little in the FAQs for guidance regarding this type of post and so I am just taking a shot at it. The idea is basically to share my experiences with everyone else (INTPs and ENTPs as well I suppose) as I go through a process of self-examination. Perhaps this will prove helpful to others, or perhaps it will not - but I want to share with the community - and on the off chance that anyone is intrigued with my idea, I welcome collaborations. Thanks. =)

 

[fullerene]

I'm actually stunned you aren't banned yet, given all your advertising/spam immediately. I'm not really sure what's going on there, unless you like PMed the admins and made sure it was ok first or something.

Adymus is about to shoot you in the face because he's a probably-intj mbti-purist, and you're raping the theory he holds dearly with a shovel.

 

[boradicus]

I suppose you could interpret my excitement about the idea in such a way, however, it is not self-promulgation that interests me but connecting with other people here as well as elsewhere. I could probably have curtailed my excitement a bit by confining myself to this post, however, that did not seem emotionally honest. I did not anticipate finding discussions related to intp/entp ambivalence, however when I serendipitously ran across such references I asked myself whether it was appropriate to curtail my thoughts on the matter or to share them. I do not wish for this to be the central topic surrounding my participation here, but if some find my posts offensive, I would be more than happy to make retractions.

On the other hand, I would think that a forum connotes the general idea of the discussion of topics in an open, conversationally explorative way. Brain Enclosed In Flesh made a comment in another post about feeling typecast by the limitations of the MBTI; in this sense, all models are starting points for differentiation and greater depth of understanding - and I believe it to be a part of the nature of the INTP type to approach ideas freely for the purpose of obtaining perspectives toward to goal of deeper comprehension and understanding. Therefore a debate may prove useful for delineating questions and ideas, but not for the purpose of enforcing one's own ideas on others. Enforcement does not equal 'invitation;' they are two disparate view points.. I hope that made sense !

 

[Adymus]

I'm actually stunned you aren't banned yet, given all your advertising/spam immediately. I'm not really sure what's going on there, unless you like PMed the admins and made sure it was ok first or something.

Adymus is about to shoot you in the face because he's a probably-intj mbti-purist, and you're raping the theory he holds dearly with a shovel.

Don't call me an MBTI purist; Pure MBTI is exactly what I am trying to move people away from, if anything I am a typology futurist.
You sound a little bitter about this.

To the OP: Great job, you go have fun.

(He won't turn into an ENTP, but he will become more in touch with his Ne and Fe in his attempt to become an ENTP, so this is ultimately very beneficial for him, I'll let him go unscathed. He appears to have already figured out that it is possible to use Ne to vicariously stimulate Ti in tandem, but doesn't actually realize that that is still technically not being an extrovert, considering Ti still has the Highest priority. But he should still carry on with his experiment, he is going to grow immensely from this, assuming he does it right and doesn't just force himself to over exertion.)

 

[Anthile]

Actually, I am quite disappointed by the reactions - who has actually clicked on the link and read before posting a statement? While there are some factual errors and I am very skeptical towards changing of types, I see here someone who made an effort and you guys aren't even constructive in your criticism. Additionally, the whole "wait until Adymus sees that" is really cringe-worthy.




PS: It's not really advertisement because it's only for informational purpose.

 

[Adymus]

Additionally, the whole "wait until Adymus sees that" is really cringe-worthy.

I'm a little bothered by that as well.

Especially Fullerine's remark, that sounds a little too much like passive aggression to me.

 

[Lyra]

boradicus, I've undertaken similar experimentation before. If you're interested in that, search for a thread titled 'personality destruction', posted under my old 'XIII' account. The 'Mystically Transformed XIII' thread may be of some interest as well, given that it demonstrates a deliberate attempt to play an extremely outgoing and compassionate role, equivalent to that which I associated with 'ENFPs' at the time. It also pertains to the process of transformation, and what permanence or lack of permanence underlays changing experiences of the world.

My 'damaged.goods' account (on this forum) is relevant as well, given that it was designed to elicit positive reactions, and given that it was constructed after my previous experiences and methodological errors.

The reactions I received on both accounts, and their causes, might be worth considering when you decide how you want to approach your project.

I don't know if you're interested in advice, but if you are, then mine is: above all, learn to listen empathetically to the organic language of your own being. Above all, do not impose conditions upon yourself by way of enforced modes of behavior or adherence to concepts, but instead work, progressively and consistently, upon drawing out the individual and subtle possibilities latent within you. If you do that, you have much to gain.

I wrote this many months ago:

How would I summarize my approach? I'm afraid that I don't have a unified theory or coherent model to offer in lieu of NLP, but, as you've probably guessed, my approach is an experiential one.

My personality change experiments-- one example of my experiential approach-- finished some months ago. I'd agree that they were risky, given that they caused a psychological breakdown. I did go very, very far overboard, though. By my last emulation, I was using the following technologies:
-Intentional memory change. That is: deliberately overwriting my memories and creating believed-in 'past lives' in alignment with the emulated personality.
-Postural re-adjustment. I used Reichian bodily therapy to modify my body into a form facilitative of the emulated identity, which temporarily resulted in a kind of bodily equivalent of schizpophrenia.
-Adapted deity yoga. I took the Hindu technique and adapted it so that I was effectively reaching ecstatic states while considering the imagery etc. of the current personality.
-Sensory overload. I found sensory input which reinforced the personality (music etc.) and submerged myself in it.
-Anchors (yes, that's adopted from NLP). I created anchors-- both hand gestures and pieces of clothing and jewelery-- and reinforced them throughout emulations so that I could, literally, clothe myself in or change out of a personality at will.
-Mental tyranny.
-A lot of other things.

Nevertheless, I learned more about myself than perhaps any other way would allow. I also learned that our brains and bodies are fragile and function by virtue of various subtle homeostatic states; consequently I take a very different approach now. Instead of imposing identities upon myself, I learn the organic language of my own body and mind. Instead of colonising myself with external personalities, I allow the diversity and intricacy of my own to come into view, and to sing its own song.

Also: by heaven, use The Feldenkrais Method if you use nothing else. It will enhance your progress dramatically. I recommend starting with this course: http://www.achievingexcellence.com/p-que10.html

Other than that, I largely recommend avoiding self-development courses, NLP, and other such fields. I've been aware of the communities centred around such pursuits for years now, and the embodied result that they produce-- not their rhetoric or claims, but their actual effect-- is very rarely a beautiful or numinous one. The way you're approaching things now is much more valuable, because it is direct, flexible, and personal.

'Thou art the way'-- subtle, kind, and honest self-discovery is the key. Feldenkrais can be an aid in that, as can typology, but it is your own unique organic complexity that will provide the gateway to infinitely novel and adaptable modes of experience. There are always new subtleties to tune into, and new realms of yourself to explore: it's far more rewarding to discover and draw your own maps than to take somebody else's word for what's out there.

(I should note that I'm probably not an 'INTP', and am probably a very different type of person than you. I think that my comments above may still be of some usefulness, despite that.)

 

[Lyra]

By the way, I hope that you ignore the people who are oafishly criticising you and dismissing you out of hand*. Don't even respond to them-- their input is worthless unless they offer a more beautiful or interesting alternative, or make a relevant and helpful comment based upon extensive personal experience and study. Likely, they're just (unknowingly and subconsciously) affirming the permanence of their own mediocrity and sloth by treating it as if it were an immutable, theoretically justified fact of life. Anybody who steps out of line and tries to further themselves will experience such reactions, and developing the ability to see them for what they are is very important to personal growth.

*That is: everybody above Adymus' first post, not including Adymus or any of the posters who follow him.

p.s. I've just re-watched your video, and I really do like the way you're approaching things so far; particularly the independent and precise approach you're taking. The only minor alteration I would advise at this point, as discussed above, is to avoid excessive reliance upon any one conceptual system (typology).

 

[shoeless]

see, my problem with this is, there's a difference between becoming more social and becoming more extraverted.

there is nothing wrong with introversion. there is nothing wrong with INTP's. ENTP's are not greater beings than INTP's, which is what stuff like this implies.

i find the whole concept of trying to "change your type" utterly pointless.

developing your weaknesses is just fine. i applaud that. fantastic, honestly.
but trying to pretend it's some scientific study or whatever, that's just...

well, less than fantastic. in my humble opinion.

 

[Lyra]

He didn't try to 'pretend it's some scientific study of whatever'. He's describing it as exactly what it is: an interesting experiment.

Additionally, I don't think that any of his comments imply a hierarchy of valuations in relation to the MBTI types. Instead, I think that they bespeak a general desire for exploration and evolution, which happens to make use of the convenient conceptual framework that typology provides.

 

[fullerene]

I'm a little bothered by that as well.

Especially Fullerine's remark, that sounds a little too much like passive aggression to me.

mmm.... I didn't mean for it to sound passive aggressive. I wasn't bitter towards you at all, though; I can see why you'd think that, but I think you're misinterpreting where my bitterness was directed. Do you not strictly hold to mbti theory? I've seen you argue with people often when they talk about changing their types, go back to the cognitive functions that lay beneath what most people understand, and your predictions of peoples' behavior (in the relationship advice thread series when they were all over the place) by using this theory were all dead on.

That's all I meant by MBTI-purist. I don't know much about other forms of typology, so all of those things I mentioned (as examples of you adhering closely to the theory) strike me as mbti-purism. I'm sorry if I misrepresented you, though. I actually meant that most as a lot more of a joke than it came across... not that that's an excuse for meanness, or anything, but it is what it is.

For anthile (tho it actually relates to my the blue-squid-y observation): I did actually read his link. This part stood out to me.

I first thought of approaching the possibility for such transformations when after realizing the limited ways in which I have been adept at managing anxiety and conflict in my own life began to seem insufficient in their scope for the the purpose the betterment of my own life

I didn't check through the entire site, but it sounded really blue-squid-y. If this sort of thing misrepresents what you're trying to do, you might want to consider re-wording it.


as for advertising vs. spreading new ideas: it takes one thread to say "hey, I have this cool idea: what do you guys think?" In his first several posts, there was...

http://intpforum.com/showthread.php?p=151329&postcount=9
http://intpforum.com/showthread.php?p=151330&postcount=7
http://intpforum.com/showthread.php?p=151336&postcount=68

and then this thread. I might be wrong, but that strikes me like "I want AS MANY PEOPLE TO SEE THIS AS POSSIBLE! NAO!"


I'm not saying anthing should be done about it. Mods made their own decisions, w/e, I don't really care. These are the reasons for the bitterness, though. I will definitely apologize if I misrepresented adymus beliefs about typology, but it's hard for me to apologize for an intuitive-judgment. I may be wrong, of course, about the OP's purpose... but we'll see. Obviously nothing can be proven until time passes. If time passes and I was wrong, I'll of course apologize for that too.

 

[Lyra]

You're being viciously unfair, fullerene. The OP has done nothing to warrant the tone of your post. He has only tried to contribute, and of course a natural enthusiasm for the topics on his mind, combined with the enthusiasm many of us first felt upon finding this forum, has led him to discuss them widely. By judging him negatively for that you are applying a very twisted ethic to human behavior, and one which I don't think you actually hold*.

Because I think you are being dishonest about the nature of your contention:

The true, veiled source of your antipathy is your static Christian conception of the cosmos and the ideal human order, and your consequent aversion to those who step out ahead-- as, in your conception of life, Lucifer stepped out ahead of the homogeny of heavenly order-- and strive for something more, something grander, something greater, and something more intensely numinous.

I think it is that which prevents you from realising that you are levying wholly inappropriate and pathological denouncements upon an individual engaged in a healthy, positive, and honest endeavor.

---

*Although, I must recall your ludicrous past accusation that I was... demonically possessed. That does seriously undermine my faith in your sanity and right-mindedness, and thus reconciles me to the possibility that your disturbed and unfounded criticisms of the OP are earnest. I hope, for your sake, that that is not the case.

 

[BigApplePi]

boradicus. Terrific! Great project. I am new here and new to personality typing but believe I am an INTP. Everything I know about myself points to that but I find when I came to this board I am behaving in a much more extroverted fashion that I do off-line. The way I look at it is not changing personality, but expanding it. Adymus says (paraphrase) such an INTP would be expanding their Ne and Fe. I'll go for that.

As I say I'm new to personality studies and am interested in what it is all about. I have an intuitive feel for the answer but am not ready for words. Go with Adymus for the nounce I'd say, but feel free to question him.

I am part-way through your video. You talk about "recharging" and are asking "what is the barrier" concerning doing this with people? That is exactly the Q I would ask. My answer at 4:48 into your vid is we are organisms. But there are two kinds of organisms involved here --
(1) ourselves
(2) social groups and other people
These are definitely distinct. If one is to be an "E" one has to "know" or intuit the organic nature of another person or group. The N has to be primary not the T. Can a person do both? Be my guest.

Also I notice Lyra is posting here. Be careful of her. She is a wild woman. She resists typing but I have her firmly typed as an XXXX.

 

[Beat Mango]

Actually, I am quite disappointed by the reactions - who has actually clicked on the link and read before posting a statement? While there are some factual errors and I am very skeptical towards changing of types, I see here someone who made an effort and you guys aren't even constructive in your criticism. Additionally, the whole "wait until Adymus sees that" is really cringe-worthy.

I was skeptical too until I saw the video, I just thought "oh, another naive young guy disillusioed with his introversion, stumbling across MBTI and somehow thinking that he can transform into extroversion as a result". But watching the video it's clearly not that - as I commented on youtube, I like the approach and I'll likely be keeping track of his journey.

 

[Beat Mango]

Also I notice Lyra is posting here. Be careful of her. She is a wild woman. She resists typing but I have her firmly typed as an XXXX.

I'm sure there's something I should be saying here, but um, seems to have slipped my mind. Never mind, carry on...

 

[Adymus]

mmm.... I didn't mean for it to sound passive aggressive. I wasn't bitter towards you at all, though; I can see why you'd think that, but I think you're misinterpreting where my bitterness was directed. Do you not strictly hold to mbti theory? I've seen you argue with people often when they talk about changing their types, go back to the cognitive functions that lay beneath what most people understand, and your predictions of peoples' behavior (in the relationship advice thread series when they were all over the place) by using this theory were all dead on.

That's all I meant by MBTI-purist. I don't know much about other forms of typology, so all of those things I mentioned (as examples of you adhering closely to the theory) strike me as mbti-purism. I'm sorry if I misrepresented you, though. I actually meant that most as a lot more of a joke than it came across... not that that's an excuse for meanness, or anything, but it is what it is.

Hmmm, I see. Your judgment on my methodology is reasonable, and I suppose it more my fault for not making myself clear.

No actually I am not sticking to straight MBTI, I am actually using a model (Pod'lair, the book that introduces the concept is still being written as we speak. But as I am a part of the team that has contributed to developing the model and testing it, so I have a thorough understanding of it.) that is actually far more advanced than MBTI. It uses principles that can be found in MBTI, such as the cognitive functions, but it expands upon the cognitive functions, the unconscious functions, the human apparatus, and it's over all functionality in ways that are far more nuanced than MBTI.

However the model uses new and rebranded terminology, so I have been using MBTI as a common tongue to avoid confusion. For the most part, many of the principles can be seamlessly translated between the two models, but I often explain these principles in ways that were never covered in MBTI, or in ways that outright contradicts it.

So yes, I do have a somewhat of a purist approach, but definitely not for MBTI.

 

[boradicus]

WOW - well first off, much thanks to Lyra, Adymus, BigApplePI, and Mango for your contributions, input and support. Thank you Adymus, Fullerene, and Shoeless for forgiving my unmitigated excitement about my project. I am a bit embarrassed now but naturally that comes with any attempt to be more extroverted on my part because perhaps I don't have as keen an intuitive sense for group dynamics as I should were I an actual Extrovert. After reading many of the posts, I have a natural tendency to become quite intimidated by the idea of conversion into extroversion, but I am resolved as would be a scientist to proceed until I have properly exhausted myself in the attempt to reach a greater level of understanding. I very much appreciate the support given in the form of encouragement and deliberation upon the topic. On the one hand it scares me to death. On the other hand it is the kind of fright that one might experience gazing out at the limitless stars on a clear night and realizing with daunting precision just how immense a task to take on the study of anything in this great cosmos would be.

I am now, in a manner of speaking, also 'on the spot' - which is a good place to be, although uncomfortable; for in making my intent known to those who are as exacting and rigorous as myself, I have committed myself to a course of action that must withstand the scrutiny not only of my own mind but of that of the minds of both my equals and my betters.

Lyra, I don't know you, but I am awed at your depth of insight and the process of self-discovery you so courageously undertook. I have a lot more to say but right now I feel tempted to pass out - please accept my simple thank you in the interim.

M

 

[Hawkeye]

For the record. Tones cannot be directed via text as their interpretation is entirely down to the reader... And seeing as we usually interpret emotional responses via facial expressions, physical movements or changes in vocal pitch I think it's safe to say that emotional text is meh...

I could call you a moron and you wouldn't know if I was merely giving it you as an example, insulting directly or being ironic.


People change over time. My Grandfather for example is a completely different man (according to my grandmother) than he was 40 years ago.

He was a reserved person who rarely talked to anyone and liked to have his 'me time'. He never talked to strangers. The thought of it used to freak him out.

Now he relies on people to keep him going... It's hard to get him to stop talking! When he goes out on trips to Castles and various National Trust sites he will quite happily gab away to the assistants or even complete random stangers he is in the vicinity of.

I believe you can change your personallity over time. It won't be an instant thing (unless you've suffered a serious head injury ^^). For example in these experiments you won't actually change as the length of time isn't long enough. But if you did them for a prolonged period of time... you would.

Music has been proven to rewrite people's brains.

 

[Mello]

Oh, and Tigers are awesome, but I think bears are cooler.

 

[Hawkeye]

Oh, and Tigers are awesome, but I think bears are cooler.

polar bears are cooler

pun intended!

 

[Robbaz]

I decided for the New Year that I was going to do my best to tackle problems by appropriating extroversion from my close cousin MBTI type, the ENTP!

I am and INTP, and if anyone is interested in this experiment, and what I/we uncover in the process please check out:

intp2entp.wikispaces.com

Thanks! =)

M

All power to ya. It'll be interesting to see how that turns out.

My prediction: I personally think that at best you will turn into a more extraverted INTP, and at worst become frustrated to see that you can't change who you are. I just don't see how one can change what nature directs them to do. We can only improve on what our strengths/weaknesses and talents are. Also, because INTPs have a difficult time lying to themselves or being fake, (unlike other types who don't have any issues with it), I think you'll struggle trying to be something else because it will feel artificial or fake. After all our efforts to conform into whatever someone else is, we will just become more frustrated and unhappy because it won't feel natural. It just won't feel right. Anyone who is a true INTP knows this, because they have been struggling their whole lives feeling different, alienated, or not normal and we know logically what it will take to "conform" or "fit in". So why don't we just do it? Because we're going against nature. Whether you consider it to be nature or nurture, we are who we are and it is near impossible to become something else. But it's that "near" word that intrigues me. Is it possible?

But that's just my opinion and observations from my life. But if Boradicus is able to prove me wrong, I'll not only re-evaluate my opinion, but I'll congratulate him for being able to validating his theory. Either way, I always love a good experiment. Especially one as big as changing who you are.

Good luck!

 

[Adymus]

He actually did say in his proposal that his intention of attempting to become ENTP is not because he believed introversion is weak, but because there are certain advantages to be gained by extroversion.

He does not have a very strong understanding of the model that he is attempting to transcend, and normally I would step in to connect the pieces that he is missing or misunderstanding. But in this case, he will eventually experience all that I was going to tell him anyway, which is far more valuable than me simply telling him. In addition to gaining a better understanding of his own psyche, he will gain personal growth as well.

Essentially he is embarking on the Alchemist's journey, he is attempting to transmute lead into gold. He may not find what he originally set out for, but the journey is far from fruitless.

I once attempted a similar experiment on myself. I was an INTP then and I still am now, but the experience was all but pointless, and I came back with more than I left with.

 

[Lyra]

Essentially he is embarking on the Alchemist's journey, he is attempting to transmute lead into gold. He may not find what he originally set out for, but the journey is far from fruitless.

I just fell in love with you.

Alchemy.

 

[pjoa09]

hrmmm so you are going to quit thinking before you speak? you will somehow convince yourself that hanging around with people you don't know is more enjoyable than people you do know?
trust me, its not fun. I have been a center of attention and it always seems stupid after analysis. analysis is the impending doom that we suffer from.

 

[boradicus]

Oh, and Tigers are awesome, but I think bears are cooler.

Dude, Tigers Rock. Ok, this friend from kung fu told me this story about a video he can't seem to find anymore about a tiger that had just killed some critter and was lounging beneath a tree next to it after his first meal off the thing. As he lay sleeping next to a nearby body of water, a crocodile comes up and snags his meal. The tiger wakes up and sees his meal getting stolen and pounces in the the water and bashes the crock on the head several times, and then grabs his meal and goes back to sleep under the tree. I don't think our scaly friend will be recovering so soon after a 900 pound cat-slap to his noggin.

Bear that in mind

 

[fullerene]

WOW - well first off, much thanks to Lyra, Adymus, BigApplePI, and Mango for your contributions, input and support. Thank you Adymus, Fullerene, and Shoeless for forgiving my unmitigated excitement about my project.

...? Forgiveness isn't something I need to be thanked for, even if it were legitimate, and excitement certainly isn't something that needs to be forgiven. Thanks for being understanding, though.

 

[boradicus]

He actually did say in his proposal that his intention of attempting to become ENTP is not because he believed introversion is weak, but because there are certain advantages to be gained by extroversion.

He does not have a very strong understanding of the model that he is attempting to transcend, and normally I would step in to connect the pieces that he is missing or misunderstanding. But in this case, he will eventually experience all that I was going to tell him anyway, which is far more valuable than me simply telling him. In addition to gaining a better understanding of his own psyche, he will gain personal growth as well.

Essentially he is embarking on the Alchemist's journey, he is attempting to transmute lead into gold. He may not find what he originally set out for, but the journey is far from fruitless.

I once attempted a similar experiment on myself. I was an INTP then and I still am now, but the experience was all but pointless, and I came back with more than I left with.

Spoken like a true Rational! Exactly right in all respects. The experience of the Journey is what is of inestimable value. I want you to know that I hold in highest esteem your reservation against speaking the findings of your own experiment into the unbiased tabula rasa upon which I intend to make my mark. Ok, so that was a bit pithy sounding but I am quite sincere. The cool thing about finding other people here of the rational perceptive type is that for the first time in my life I feel accepted and understood in my thought processes - not only that but I understand others - it is like waking up out of a dream about utter confusion and chaos and realizing that there are other sane people in this life. It is almost as if a hand extended beneath the waves, and grasping it I was pulled out of the sea and onto the shining beach of the Hellenes filled with bronzed figures who knew no difference between the tranquil blue-sea paradise and the heights of Mount Olympus..

 

[Mello]

Dude, Tigers Rock. Ok, this friend from kung fu told me this story about a video he can't seem to find anymore about a tiger that had just killed some critter and was lounging beneath a tree next to it after his first meal off the thing. As he lay sleeping next to a nearby body of water, a crocodile comes up and snags his meal. The tiger wakes up and sees his meal getting stolen and pounces in the the water and bashes the crock on the head several times, and then grabs his meal and goes back to sleep under the tree. I don't think our scaly friend will be recovering so soon after a 900 pound cat-slap to his noggin.

Bear that in mind

I saw a video with a bear that has 3 legs. YouTube- 3-Legged Bear Walks Upright

 

[boradicus]

Ursus Erectus? Now I know who the real Sasquatch is.

 

[boradicus]

Marvin Minsky has written this great book (published in 2006?) called The Emotion Machine. Its central premise is that emotions act as switches that turn on and off various configurations of biological and cognitive 'resources.' For instance, anger may be a phylogenetically inherited 'switch' that turns off reflective cognition and enhances alertness and response time to situations comprised of imminent danger and threat; alternately, emotions such as 'love' turn off/down alertness and turn off/down critical perceptions of our mates, which may in turn tend toward a similar survival strategy for the purpose of promoting long periods of stability conducive to rearing human young who are necessarily more dependent upon enhanced cognitive function (education) for survival than are other species.

The potential unleashed by an understanding the functions of such 'cognitive switches' in our analysis of our own adaptive strategies is intriguing to say the least. One of the great adaptive advantages of the rationals, as I perceive them to to possess, is the ability for in depth self-analysis wherein such structures may be isolated and understood toward the end of acquiring and cultivating enhanced life-response strategies in the form of learned skill-sets. The level of freedom possible in transcendence of typological idioms via learned strategic response, while possibly not indicative of typological shift, ipse, is nonetheless quite inspiring =) !

 

[BigApplePi]

Spoken like a true Rational! Exactly right in all respects. The experience of the Journey is what is of inestimable value. I want you to know that I hold in highest esteem your reservation against speaking the findings of your own experiment into the unbiased tabula rasa upon which I intend to make my mark. Ok, so that was a bit pithy sounding but I am quite sincere. The cool thing about finding other people here of the rational perceptive type is that for the first time in my life I feel accepted and understood in my thought processes - not only that but I understand others - it is like waking up out of a dream about utter confusion and chaos and realizing that there are other sane people in this life. It is almost as if a hand extended beneath the waves, and grasping it I was pulled out of the sea and onto the shining beach of the Hellenes filled with bronzed figures who knew no difference between the tranquil blue-sea paradise and the heights of Mount Olympus..

Bless you.

 

[BigApplePi]

Marvin Minsky has written this great book (published in 2006?) called The Emotion Machine. Its central premise is that emotions act as switches that turn on and off various configurations of biological and cognitive 'resources.' For instance, anger may be a phylogenetically inherited 'switch' that turns off reflective cognition and enhances alertness and response time to situations comprised of imminent danger and threat; alternately, emotions such as 'love' turn off/down alertness and turn off/down critical perceptions of our mates, which may in turn tend toward a similar survival strategy for the purpose of promoting long periods of stability conducive to rearing human young who are necessarily more dependent upon enhanced cognitive function (education) for survival than are other species.

The potential unleashed by an understanding the functions of such 'cognitive switches' in our analysis of our own adaptive strategies is intriguing to say the least. One of the great adaptive advantages of the rationals, as I perceive them to to possess, is the ability for in depth self-analysis wherein such structures may be isolated and understood toward the end of acquiring and cultivating enhanced life-response strategies in the form of learned skill-sets. The level of freedom possible in transcendence of typological idioms via learned strategic response, while possibly not indicative of typological shift, ipse, is nonetheless quite inspiring =) !

That has me thinking about consciousness. What we are conscious of flows, jerks, conks out. Thoughts --

F.* My impression is emotions flood the conscious mind in a way affecting the rest of the body. The brain/body does not so easily toss off the results when the body is so deeply affected and our minds dwell on the results. Do we believe the images and feelings that result?

S. Our immediate surroundings affect our senses and if they are strong enough, they also flood the brain/mind. Step in from the cold to a hot bath and will you continue rational thought? Not if the sensory result floods us. Same with sudden pain.

TN. Now what about rational thought? How does this differ from daydreaming? The former is goal oriented, the latter drifts. Both are mental rather than sensory or emotional.
_____________________________

S - forced, inescapable because it happens from the outside.
TN - controlled because it is internal. It IS us.
F - in-between. Precipitated by something external but appealing to something internal. Can be controlled but because we are human, fails.
_____________________________
*
F = feelings/emotion
S = sensory
TN = thinking/intuition

 

[boradicus]

Bless you.

It's just a visual - don't get carried away...





See it is all ruined now !

 

[boradicus]

That has me thinking about consciousness. What we are conscious of flows, jerks, conks out. Thoughts --

F.* My impression is emotions flood the conscious mind in a way affecting the rest of the body. The brain/body does not so easily toss off the results when the body is so deeply affected and our minds dwell on the results. Do we believe the images and feelings that result?

S. Our immediate surroundings affect our senses and if they are strong enough, they also flood the brain/mind. Step in from the cold to a hot bath and will you continue rational thought? Not if the sensory result floods us. Same with sudden pain.

TN. Now what about rational thought? How does this differ from daydreaming? The former is goal oriented, the latter drifts. Both are mental rather than sensory or emotional.
_____________________________

S - forced, inescapable because it happens from the outside.
TN - controlled because it is internal. It IS us.
F - in-between. Precipitated by something external but appealing to something internal. Can be controlled but because we are human, fails.
_____________________________
*
F = feelings/emotion
S = sensory
TN = thinking/intuition

You underestimate the Imperatives of Rational Thought, and you miss the point of Minsky's premise entirely; emotions need not control us (we are rational beings, self-aware, self-directed, and with a full capacity for the rational transcendence of limitations imposed by sensory input - if you elect to disbelieve me, let me refer you to a case of monks who set themselves on fire as they meditated in protest against anit-buddhist policies --> http://www.vietnampix.com/fire1.htm). Our capacity for Love, in a more simple and perhaps less dramatic way - which by the way is not a feeling of Love in the sense in which I am describing it, but a rational decision to Love - enables us to easily transcend the needs of the body and emotions for those whom and that which we choose to Love.

What you seem to be describing is tantamount to torture; "can the human capacity for rationality be overridden by sensory overload" is the question that you have presented to us. I do not advocate torture, nor do I support its advocators - 'scientific inquiry' does not excuse - sorry. But since torture is the focus of your inquiry, let me enlighten you as to its workings upon the rational mind. While it is true that pain (sudden or prolonged at minimum psychological threshold) may be capable of eliciting immediate aversive responses in the untrained mind, the essential nature of the rational decision process will not conform to any blueprint other than its own; in other words, once a threat has been identified, the mind (of the rational) begins to work with cool precision upon the nature of the problem, its origin, its capacity for resolution, the constraints for resolution (is no, full, or partial resolution possible), its probability for resolution, the measures that need to be taken so that the problem not only does not happen to oneself again but to others (we are good like that), the most optimal course of action to be taken toward the end of resolution and future prevention, the most accessible course of action for the same, what our value systems and beliefs are in light of all of the above, and what actions should and will be taken as a result of this analysis and any constraints imposed by the current and projected situation.

There are many instances in which a rational conclusion may be reached to do absolutely nothing, or to functionally ignore the situation altogether. But to a rational, torture is not rational except for its veiled true purpose - to instill fear; this fear is not for the acquisition of information, because there are many more effective routes to that end, it is the fear of some group of people who are out of control and wish to reestablish the illusion of their own control by making others to endure their own weaknesses. There is no strength achieved by such endeavors, nor are there any solutions found by such barbarisms - the fact is that it is a long outmoded sociological survival mechanism left over from a more barbaric time. At the end of the day, society only gains by the application of rationality even if rational people are destroyed, maimed and killed in the process; The Lord of The Flies describes this all too well, perhaps you should have read it.

M.

 

[boradicus]

@BigApplePI

Is it possible you are an Fe and not a Ti?

 

[boradicus]

Hey - FYI - this is exactly what I am not about =)

--I Thought Mango might enjoy this--

www.thepopularclub.com

I thought this was humorous because he is using Domains by Proxy, Inc. - evidently he does not a desire to be so popular as he claims!

Administrative Contact:
Private, Registration THEPOPULARCLUB.COM@domainsbyproxy.com
Domains by Proxy, Inc.
DomainsByProxy.com
15111 N. Hayden Rd., Ste 160, PMB 353
Scottsdale, Arizona 85260
United States
(480) 624-2599 Fax -- (480) 624-2598

 

[BigApplePi]

boradicus. I am in the middle of something right now but appreciate your response. Please. Can you preface your msgs with the name of the person you're talking to so the general reader as well as myself will know to whom you refer? boradicus if you wish to practice extroversion, note that an INTP is not just an INTP. There are many kinds of INTPs just as there are of other types. As of right now I don't know you and you don't know me. I hope to address your message in due time. I will need to address what looks like a number of assumptions you've made. Whenever one wishes to use reason, addressing assumptions is a fair thing, it is not? Later .....

 

[boradicus]

Sorry PI,

But I have had many bad experiences that have unfortunately tended to color my perceptions surrounding certain issues. At times the issues themselves tend to function like strange attractors - and for this I apologize for my response, its assumptions and intensity. After rereading the post above, I decided that I probably did not place sufficient interpretive emphasis on your comment about daydreaming. This comment departs from my initial interpretation - which may have been colored by my perception of a tone of 'fatalism' in the introductory sentence to your response.

I would still love to hear what you would like to say, and I am sorry for my hasty ascertainment of your post.

Sorry man...

 

[BigApplePi]

Sorry PI,

But I have had many bad experiences that have unfortunately tended to color my perceptions surrounding certain issues. At times the issues themselves tend to function like strange attractors - and for this I apologize for my response, its assumptions and intensity. After rereading the post above, I decided that I probably did not place sufficient interpretive emphasis on your comment about daydreaming. This comment departs from my initial interpretation - which may have been colored by my perception of a tone of 'fatalism' in the introductory sentence to your response.

I would still love to hear what you would like to say, and I am sorry for my hasty ascertainment of your post.

Sorry man...

boradicus now that was a cool response. I wasn't expecting an apology but got one for free, lol. I will have to go back and see what I said.

Sorry you had some bad experiences. Where were they? I think you will find many great people here. All are friendly expect possibly for the rare non-INTP. (Sorry non INTP.) I can see you have what some might think are extroverted qualities ...

I was going to go out in the snow storm to a meeting but my wife just came in warning me Fifth Avenue is stopped and the puddles are over her ankles. If others aren't going to show up I might as well cancel. I will just go out to walk the dog. Later ....

 

[Adymus]

Uhhhhm.


Okay so I just watched your video finally, and I kind of noticed something... Crucial, I suppose to your experiment...

I'm not sure how you are going to take this... But you are not an INTP, you're an INFJ.

*You are way to skilled at using your Fe, your face is more expressive, and was clearly built for expressing.
*You have mad articulation skills, certainly more than an INTP who has not really developed their Fe yet would have.
*Your whole talk was completely structured, it had a clear start and a clear finish. A completely linear thought process.
*You are actually gaining energy by being on your Left brain and accessing your worldview and putting in structure by articulating it.
*I can see you drifting into Ni at several points in your video, and I didn't see you use Ti a single time.


So yeah.

 

[BigApplePi]

Uhhhhm.


Okay so I just watched your video finally, and I kind of noticed something... Crucial, I suppose to your experiment...

I'm not sure how you are going to take this... But you are not an INTP, you're an INFJ.

*You are way to skilled at using your Fe, your face is more expressive, and was clearly built for expressing.
*You have mad articulation skills, certainly more than an INTP who has not really developed their Fe yet would have.
*Your whole talk was completely structured, it had a clear start and a clear finish. A completely linear thought process.
*You are actually gaining energy by being on your Left brain and accessing your worldview and putting in structure by articulating it.
*I can see you drifting into Ni at several points in your video, and I didn't see you use Ti a single time.


So yeah.

Adymus. Tsk! Tsk! Crushing. Crushing? LOL.

 

[Beat Mango]

Hey - FYI - this is exactly what I am not about =)

--I Thought Mango might enjoy this--

www.thepopularclub.com

I thought this was humorous because he is using Domains by Proxy, Inc. - evidently he does not a desire to be so popular as he claims!

Administrative Contact:
Private, Registration THEPOPULARCLUB.COM@domainsbyproxy.com
Domains by Proxy, Inc.
DomainsByProxy.com
15111 N. Hayden Rd., Ste 160, PMB 353
Scottsdale, Arizona 85260
United States
(480) 624-2599 Fax -- (480) 624-2598

Ha! That used to appear on my blog as a google ad a lot, I won't lie, I was very curious about it.

@Adymus: ok the first and second times I believed you, but this labelling of expressive and/or idealistic INTPs as INFJs is becoming tiresome and unlikely, imo. I mean I'm in the camp that types to begin with are a rough sketch of somebody's character at best, but you know, just saying.

 

[Adymus]

@Adymus: ok the first and second times I believed you, but this labelling of expressive and/or idealistic INTPs as INFJs is becoming tiresome and unlikely, imo. I mean I'm in the camp that types to begin with are a rough sketch of somebody's character at best, but you know, just saying.

It isn't because he is idealistic at all. I mean, there were several red flags in this thread that indicated him being Left-Brain, but I held off judgment until I had a chance to watch his video.

It's not labeling, no more than calling yourself an INTP is, it's really just recognizing that these people are using a different set of tools than we are.

It's fine if you don't believe me, but I know what I am doing, and I'm certain of my read. I've read tons of people, and analyzed how all of them are using their functions. It is highly unlikely that I am seeing the one exception of INTP who breaks all of the rules no other type has broken, and is actually gaining momentum from using left-brain functions, and can actually think completely structured thoughts and articulate them without losing energy.

Or I can just Okham's Razor this and go with INFJ.

 

[Robbaz]

It isn't because he is idealistic at all. I mean, there were several red flags in this thread that indicated him being Left-Brain, but I held off judgment until I had a chance to watch his video.

It's not labeling, no more than calling yourself an INTP is, it's really just recognizing that these people are using a different set of tools than we are.

It's fine if you don't believe me, but I know what I am doing, and I'm certain of my read. I've read tons of people, and analyzed how all of them are using their functions. It is highly unlikely that I am seeing the one exception of INTP who breaks all of the rules no other type has broken, and is actually gaining momentum from using left-brain functions, and can actually think completely structured thoughts and articulate them without losing energy.

Adymus, I would have to agree with your analysis. If I have things well prepared, usually written out and practiced, than I can give a speech that is as good as any other type. I may be able to do it without you knowing that I was an INTP until after my speech. But I watched both video's that he had and it appeared mostly spontaneous-on the fly. His mannerisms, facial expressions and fluidity just don't quite fit an INTP. Just for comparison, watch some other INTP videos on Youtube and you'll see they all clearly portray an INTP. I just don't know enough about the INFJ to validate that, but I just don't see the INTP.

Boradicus, I don't mean to offend. I hope you can take my analysis as just that, an analysis. If you put your name out there, broadcast a public experiment to the world and a start a thread on the subject, you have to expect some analysis. Especially in an INTP forum - analyzing is our strength and weakness. But I certainly don't mean to criticize. I just think you're missing something in the MBTI testing. Perhaps you recognized it when you said you tested between extraverted and introverted?

 

[boradicus]

Well actually I'm not. I took the test about 8 different times recently - everything scored as INTP; additionally, when I took the test via a psychologist in 2002-ish, they recorded me as an ISTP, however, the only true indicator was Thinking - everything else was greatly subdued, and being as I was at the time under a great deal of stress this made perfect sense, and the ISTP misinterpretation made perfect sense as well because having come to a certain level of mastery with theory, I decided to consciously move away from the abstract and focus on gathering specific data (having no idea that I was still doing so in a highly theoretical/abstract manner) and answered with the preference upon which I had determined to focus while answering questions on the MBTI.

But to answer your assessment, I have always been obsessed with thinking since I was at least 6 years old and started to read books about the planets and astronauts - I used to drive mom crazy with questions. Then I would go off by myself in my early teens and do nothing but sit and think. Only very rarely if at all have I ever responded to a situation based on emotional impetus, although it is quite possible to do given stress factors - yet ultimate decision processes are determined strictly by logical assessment. This in no way undermines the ability for expression - one learns as one grows to be more expressive - this did not in fact happen until I took drama in high-school from which many skills were appropriated and mannerisms adopted; however, exterior appearances and internal realities are not necessarily indicative of the same thing. Additionally, I have difficulty understanding Fe people because their decision processes seem completely irrational or subversive to me.

With regard to the J - absolutely not. I am not at all a quick or decisive decision maker. I spend hours at times meandering through the grocery store attempting to optimize the best combination of groceries to use throughout the week. I am better now because I tend to only buy for a few days at a time which allows me to get out of the store a lot faster! LOL

I'm sorry but if you actually knew me my type would be completely obvious to you - and oh - I am definitely not an idealist. I am a realist - in fact I am often criticized for my cynical approach to analysis and decision making. In my view, idealism is simply an attempt to configure the facts to fit one's opinion of how things ought to be. My beliefs are continually being reevaluated - sometimes on a daily basis - as I gather and collect new information - does that mean that I don't have any beliefs - no it doesn't. But what it means in essence is that no matter how nice it may seem to have some different reality from the one continually proven, that reason must bear out the truth of what has been observed.

Ironically, Ockham's Razor is a favorite catch-phrase often misappropriated by J-s for better ease in passing Judgment while seeming to be scientific about it. The Razor simply states: Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem or "Entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily." This means that the shortest path toward a PROOF should be adopted; however, people often misuse the term in an attempt to supplant an intuitive guess for a 'proof.' The Razor was originally intended for scientific application, but has been often misquoted throughout history to justify quick guess-work - it is in fact almost akin to the semantics of Wittgenstein's "If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck it must be duck" - which is in fact utter tautological nonsense.

Now I can see where the interpretation may come from intuitively - in essence, because of the level of thymos present in my thinking may give rise to the conclusion that I am Fe, when in fact I am Ti yet passionate about my discussions (which I suppose could well be an ENTP trait being that as I have heard they are quite fond of argumentation *grin*) - but I believe that you will find that thymos is necessarily present in any thinker, veiled or unveiled. I would be more likely to believe that there are different types of INTPs rather than to go the extra stretch and identify with your conclusion. I see nothing in my own thinking that indicates to me the contrary.

I have no idea what you mean by drifting into Ni - I am uncertain as to what you mean by completely structured because I generally ramble and it took me a few attempts to get my thoughts together before I felt confident in posting the video. Those are simply skills that I have learned to help me cope over the years - in a live conversation you would quite possibly be annoyed by the shear number of my parenthetical digressions. As far as Ti is concerned, I don't spend my time in front of a camera reflecting all that much but I am curious as to what you mean by that - much of my time spent thinking is when I am alone...

Also curiously, it would be quite odd to have 8 different tests say INTP each and every time although sometimes the individual scores vacillated greatly.

I have pictures of the results.

Mark

 

[boradicus]

Let me also add to this that throughout the course of my life, my natural tendency has always been to gravitate toward theory. I studied Music Theory, which I was quite good at by the way, and later I got my BA in Political Theory (classical philosophy with a political twist). I am a programmer - drawn to the field not by technical proficiency but by the idea of learning new models and constructs to help me understand the world around me- which concepts and models are quite useful when used as analogies for other things - it is a very cool way to look at the world - by comparing one structure to another structure and drawing inferences. I would never have finished my paper on Plato's Republic in fact if it had not been for an intuitive guess based on a statement made by Douglas Hoffstadter in his similarly structured work, Goedel Escher Bach.

Anyway, cheers, I have to go to class or something...