The End of Gender?

[xbox]

http://www.npr.org/2011/06/23/137342682/the-end-of-gender?sc=fb&cc=fp

I dont understand what changing your looks has to do with solving the problem that comes with gender divisions. If its the person's choice, sure I dont care, but will it really solve the underlying problems? For example: What if a girl chooses to be feminine and guy chooses to be masculine? It still doesn't change the fact that there is a salary gap between males and females of similar rank within a company. Will gender neutralization (as in literally blurring your outward appearance) actually help it?? I really doubt it.

"Sex differences are real and some are probably present at birth, but then social factors magnify them," says Lise Eliot, an associate professor of neuroscience at the Chicago Medical School and author of Pink Brain, Blue Brain: How Small Differences Grow Into Troublesome Gaps and What We Can Do About It. "So if we, as a society, feel that gender divisions do more harm than good, it would be valuable to break them down. "

 

[smithcommajohn]

I weep for our future.

 

[psion]

I dont understand what changing your looks has to do with solving the problem that comes with gender divisions. If its the person's choice, sure I dont care, but will it really solve the underlying problems? For example: What if a girl chooses to be feminine and guy chooses to be masculine? It still doesn't change the fact that there is a salary gap between males and females of similar rank within a company. Will gender neutralization (as in literally blurring your outward appearance) actually help it?? I really doubt it.

I would agree, I think we ave to address these types of problems first, because as long as they have documentation on your sex, looking like a guy without changing your sex legally won't change these problems.

I weep for our future.

What exactly is it that bothers you about this? Just wondering.

 

[xbox]

^yes I agree.

This is just one example by the way, sorry if I sound unclear..

I should have mentioned first that I read an article about the existence of a salary gap between male and female employees of the same rank within a company.

What bothers me is the approach, that people should accept that there will be manly males, and feminine females, and ofcourse there will be the ones in the middle which I have no problem with. But I think society should use the approach of gender neutrality intelligently by fighting for and eventually receiving/giving equal salaries, rather than changes such as gender neutral restrooms, dorms, looks, etc. In my opinion, those changes don't tackle the actual existing problems between males and females.

Like I said, the salary gap is just one example of sexism.

It was more of the approach that the article took..


-------------Just to add---------------


Just yesterday I was reading up on some topics about how the ultra prep retail store Abercrombie and Fitch was sued several times for discriminating against people who didn't fit their "look policy".... I think the people who sued them took the right approach.

http://jezebel.com/5289492/abercrom...reroom-because-she-doesnt-fit-the-look-policy

http://www.thefword.org.uk/blog/2009/06/beware_the_look

I found the articles quite hilarious too...it was just way too ridiculous.

 

[Zionoxis]

You have got to be kidding me...am I the only one who thinks society is taking a turn for the worst?

You cannot just deny gender. This makes me laugh a bit. Male and female are not one in the same...they are different. If you are a male, you are a male, and if you are a female, you are a female. People are so against sexism that they want to remove the differentiation between the two? That is like saying "I do not like black, so I refuse to say you are black and instead will say you are white." But he is still black...

Though I agree America has some sexist tendencies, why do we not address them instead of pulling this overly progressive crap? People are not equal. People possess different skills, abilities and traits. These are what make each individual unique and people should be measured with said traits. Obviously, if someone is a faster worker in the workplace, he should get paid more than a slacker. Why? Because he DID more. If someone is more intelligent, he should get paid more. Why? Because he worked for the knowledge how now possesses.

If you have a dick, you are a guy. If you don't, you are a girl. Accept that fact and move on. Girls have a bit of trouble with emotions while guys have an overly powerful sex drive which in turn, acts as a catalyst to build muscle faster than women. That fact is irrefutable. High testosterone levels create faster muscle building. Men have higher levels so obviously, they build muscle faster. In turn, this tends to make men 'stronger' physically since not as much work is required.

Conclusion: America has some serious issues as it currently stands. They are trying to hard to be 'equal' that they in turn, are just playing with the laws of nature and saying it is simply how someone 'is'. That is like homosexuality. A cause for homosexuality is currently being researched, and a cure is as well. Currently, it may have to do with a hormone imbalance created at birth. If all goes well, we may have the life cycle restored in the next decade.

 

[Jesse]

This seems kind of insane.

 

[Minuend]

I don't see the problem

 

[smithcommajohn]

What exactly is it that bothers you about this? Just wondering.

As citizens of the earth we have a lot of problems facing us. Whether or not we have to put M or F on our driver's license is not one of them.

 

[Trebuchet]

I wouldn't worry. Gender isn't going to go away any time soon. While I don't think gender neutrality is a general solution for anything, I do see the problem being addressed.

By the time my daughter was 6 months old, people were already examining her for signs that she was a girly-girl or a tomboy, as if those were the only choices. She gets told, not just by her classmates, but by their parents and other adults, that boys can't like pink or flowers, and there is a long list of things she has been told girls can't like (or be good at): science, math, Star Wars, dinosaurs, bugs, swords, cars, zombies, and tools. She likes all of these, yet she isn't a classic tomboy. She also likes nail polish, dresses, dolls, sparkly stickers, crafts, and the color pink. This doesn't make her a classic girly-girl. People still ask me which she is, as if those were the only two options available, yet neither is correct. And she gets so frustrated when people try to put her, or anyone, in a box like that.

And this resonates with me, because I went through the same thing. I am happy being female, but I am neither extremely feminine nor masculine. I get tired of being told that I think like a man, or should be more emotional and nurturing. I sure didn't appreciate being told in 8th grade that girls aren't good at math, or in 10th grade that girls don't belong in electronics shop class.

I have a friend who gave her two daughters fairly gender neutral names, so they wouldn't have a disadvantage when they put their names on job applications and business cards. That says a lot about how she thinks women are perceived, and since she worked for years in a "man's" field, she has reason to think as she does.

So many gender stereotypes are illusions, just something our culture decided on. Of course there are differences between men and women, but what are the real differences, and what are the ones we created?

 

[Joz_helloworld]

When I was a child I actually knew another child who was being raised in this manner. I just wish I knew that person now, and what they made of it.

Like Minuend, I don't see any negative with it. A person is an individual, whether male or female. I don't believe in denying feminine or masculine traits in an individual, but I do think it is an issue when children are moulded into certain ways of thinking based on their sex.

I also think there is an issue when people assume others to have certain traits based on their sex, when it may not be the case, or assuming one or the other is better.

I may be willing to accept that males are stronger in spatial abilities, but what is the point of that, when some males will be weak in that, and some females strong?

The question is, are the females being overlooked/underpaid because the particular females are not as equipped for the particular job, or is there other reasons at play?

I do think that gender generalisations can result in sexism in the workplace, so it isn't a bad thing to break them down. They don't seem to mean much real anyway. I do not think physical blurring of gender is what needs to be done, what needs to be done is tackle the assumptions.

I also think that far too much emphasis is on gender in general in any case, to me it really doesn't mean all that much, outside of intimate relationships. It doesn't tell me anything of interest.

 

[xbox]

I think it's a big deal when sexism affects salary distribution between sexes, or hiring processes based on looks.
The concept of gender neutralization is interesting, but the way people are going about it is just pathetic. It should be applied to work-force job paperwork as to avoid the salary gap, basically people would then be payed based on productivity and hard work, rather than gender/sex.

I think the solutions mentioned in the article are the incorrect way to go about fixing the problem. Most probably the best way is assessing and addressing each and every situation on a case by case basis to avoid discrimination. Like the Abercrombie and Fitch cases.

But to have neutra gendered porta potties just doesnt make sense to me.

 

[Joz_helloworld]

I'm not sure if that 'big deal' was aimed at me or the whole, but i want to address it because I don't think I expressed myself well in saying that I meant the real differences between male and female gender are negligable. The society, on the other hand, has ideas about gender and they are real, and I agree, it is a 'big deal' when they disciminate based on superficialities such as physical attractiveness, appearance of disability and crass assumptions.

I kinda disagree that the neutrality thing is irrelevent, I think it does tackle some of the assumptions of gender and by breaking down some of these, there will be less assumptions made and less discrimination cast. In particular I get annoyed watching trucks being thrust at boys and dolls at girls for example... There was nothing in the article in particular I objected to, (well, not having a king and queen of the prom sounded a bit silly) but some of the things I thought were useless, such as same sex toilets, what is the good of that?

Some of the stuff is already like that. Co-dorms? What the? Aren't they all? And I remember open gay and lesbians there, there was never an issue with that... mind you, we all had our own rooms.

I mean, I think you need to tackle the stem of the problem as well as punish those who are doing wrong. *If* you accept that gender assumptions are the stem of the problem, which I personally think they contribute, but may not tell the whole story.

Of course, punishing those like Aberfeldie and Crombie is really important too, and goes to the heart of the matter also, like, it has raised here discussion about it/contributed to the discussion surrounding it...

 

[Agent Intellect]

So many gender stereotypes are illusions, just something our culture decided on. Of course there are differences between men and women, but what are the real differences, and what are the ones we created?

I don't have enough time to make a proper response right now, but I think this quote sums up what I would have said quite nicely.

 

[Minuend]

A pronoun that doesn't reveal gender shouldn't really be a problem. I believe it would in a way decrease our biased gender perceptions.

Having a genderless pronoun doesn't mean we don't acknowledge any differences, it's more that we are more relaxed about it and realize that those two are not absolute borders that can't be crossed. It just means we are more free to be us, not our gender.

Hopefully less "men are pigs" and "women are gossipy". More "that certain individual is fucking annoying".

Girls have a bit of trouble with emotions

That's BS, btw.

 

[Jordan~]

I think the singular they is a perfectly good gender-neutral pronoun already.
Being gay I find there are almost no gender expectations on me. It's quite liberating - I watch my 'straight' friends agonising over whether or not the fact that they kissed a guy compromises their masculinity and think, poor thing. Their freedom to act according to their inclinations seems to be really limited by their concern about what that implies about the labels they've embraced. I'm male sexed and I don't really bother to think about what my gender is.

 

[Don't mind me]

I mean, the argument that gender roles are completely artificial, cultural constructions and don't have their origin in biological factors seems to end up as an endless chain of children growing into archetypes due to social pressure from their parents, which in turn had a similar experience with their parents, ad infinitum. At some point in history, you have to say that one generation raised the next in a particular way due to circumstances not brought about by any "societal" factors: where else did the chain start?

That said, I have personally observed female children who acted "like boys" when they hadn't been exposed to anything else, but turned "girly" when they saw how girls are "supposed" to act in kindergarten. A Swedish study that I can't seem to find right now videotaped kindergarten employees and compared their behavior towards girls with be.to. boys, and found that even those who were, on a conscious level, very "anti-gender roles" reinforced boyish/girly stereotypes in almost every interaction they had with the children. I'm convinced that this is the main root of it all, and that any inherent differences that would still remain even if a child's upbringing was completely gender neutral would be extremely subtle.

What bothers me, though, about the modern feminist movement is that its calls for political action against perceived problems seems misdirected. Take salary discrepancies, for example. If women really are paid less than men despite being equally productive, why would profit-seeking businesses ever hire a man? Companies would tend to prefer females over males since they'd boost their revenues more, and this process would proceed until the wages were once again equalized. Until this state had been met, it would be beneficial to overbid competitors when it came to hiring women, since their productivity would be higher than their salaries, and detrimental to keep hiring men. How could this situation ever persist?

The same is true for stuff like the proportion of women in leading roles. If a company consistently refuses more qualified women for less qualified men, their opportunity costs are much higher than those of a non-discriminating company. Why would any profit-seeker do this? The market would continually punish decisions like this.

Any seemingly sexist difference can't be caused that high up in the process. Rather, it must be more fundamental: wage differentials are caused by men and women not being equally productive. Is it because one gender values life outside of the career more than their work? Has society molded one gender to be submissive and underachieve due to structural reasons? Is it, possibly, biological differences? I doubt the last one holds true for more than a very few lines of employment, personally, but I know that treating the symptoms won't cure the disease.

So, what is the solution? Most people would cringe in disgust at the suggestion of violent cultural manipulation, brainwashing, abducting children to give them the "right" upbringing or similar things, or so I hope. Meh, I guess I'll stick to attempting non-violent cultural manipulation.

 

[psion]

If you have a dick, you are a guy. If you don't, you are a girl. Accept that fact and move on. Girls have a bit of trouble with emotions while guys have an overly powerful sex drive which in turn, acts as a catalyst to build muscle faster than women. That fact is irrefutable. High testosterone levels create faster muscle building. Men have higher levels so obviously, they build muscle faster. In turn, this tends to make men 'stronger' physically since not as much work is required.

Employers just assuming this is what causes pay discrepancy in the first place. And what about girls with higher testosterone? Boys with higher estrogen? So how do intersex/hermaphrodite people fit into your boy/girl dichotomy?

As citizens of the earth we have a lot of problems facing us. Whether or not we have to put M or F on our driver's license is not one of them.

It is for transsexuals, of which there is a growing number these days.

So many gender stereotypes are illusions, just something our culture decided on. Of course there are differences between men and women, but what are the real differences, and what are the ones we created?

I do think that gender generalisations can result in sexism in the workplace, so it isn't a bad thing to break them down. They don't seem to mean much real anyway. I do not think physical blurring of gender is what needs to be done, what needs to be done is tackle the assumptions.

Hit the nail on the head for me.

As for the gender neutral toilets, I think that really only affects transsexuals and such, it would help but I don't think it is the logical next step from where we are right now. Learning to use the other bathroom is something transgendered people just have to do.

 

[smithcommajohn]

I think the singular they is a perfectly good gender-neutral pronoun already.
Being gay I find there are almost no gender expectations on me. It's quite liberating - I watch my 'straight' friends agonising over whether or not the fact that they kissed a guy compromises their masculinity and think, poor thing. Their freedom to act according to their inclinations seems to be really limited by their concern about what that implies about the labels they've embraced. I'm male sexed and I don't really bother to think about what my gender is.

That does sound liberating. Throughout the years I've learned to worry less and less what others may think about my sexuality.

- I listen to dance/trance music. <-Many think this is only for gays in the US (maybe elsewhere too). I used to hide it from most people, now I just don't care. I also sing along with many songs even if it's a female vocalist.

- I drive a hybrid. <- Again associated with femininity or gay male. The reactions to my vehicle choice were not enthusiastic from anyone (male or female).

- I choose not to hit on every sexy female within a couple meters of me. <- People assume I'm gay because I don't hit on females, but guess what? I don't hit on males either, so wtf?

I know for sure some people think I'm gay as they've told me so (usually females). I don't really understand it since I've never dated a male, kissed a male (beyond my dad when I was a little kid), or shown any interest in another male beyond friendship.

I guess we're designed to categorize people (and things) into groups and it's going to be hard to change that kind of mentality. I don't even know if we should try to change it. Categorizing helps us organize our thoughts and is a part of who we are. Even if you remove one way of categorizing people, we'll simply develop a new way to do it. Trying to erase what comes naturally to us seems a futile pursuit, imo.

With regards to pay and whatnot, I think equal pay for equal work should be the cornerstone of any great business, but it is up to the company to make it happen.

 

[Zionoxis]

A pronoun that doesn't reveal gender shouldn't really be a
That's BS, btw.

Yes, because hormonal imbalances have no effect upon emotions at all. I thought you were perceptive. Of all my female friends, I know exactly when it starts...they never told me, nor did I need to ask. Their emotions DO change and it definitely is not for the better.

As for as the workforce is involved, the question is if they can continue being productive based on that slight disadvantage. That is up to the individual. Also, may we please look at the statistics which state that men are far more likely to be INTP than woman. Why? Because we are not as sensitive to emotions in the first place. :P

So yes, women DO (for the most part) act in a more emotional manner than many of us. I am sure the few INTP women here stand as an exception. There will always be exceptions.

 

[psion]

I guess we're designed to categorize people (and things) into groups and it's going to be hard to change that kind of mentality. I don't even know if we should try to change it. Categorizing helps us organize our thoughts and is a part of who we are. Even if you remove one way of categorizing people, we'll simply develop a new way to do it. Trying to erase what comes naturally to us seems a futile pursuit, imo.

I think the problem arises because gender is so often linked with sex, which is something people can't choose. I think the point would be to categorize people by groups they choose to be in maybe?

So yes, women DO (for the most part) act in a more emotional manner than many of us. I am sure the few INTP women here stand as an exception. There will always be exceptions.

I would agree with this part, I think the problem arises when people turn it into a black and white thing (i.e. women are emotional, men are not), instead of treating it as a tendency, which allows for exceptions. Unfortunately some people would turn everything into a binary 'this or that' if they could.

 

[Minuend]

Yes, because hormonal imbalances have no effect upon emotions at all. I thought you were perceptive. Of all my female friends, I know exactly when it starts...they never told me, nor did I need to ask. Their emotions DO change and it definitely is not for the better.

As for as the workforce is involved, the question is if they can continue being productive based on that slight disadvantage.

You need to specify. What emotional reactions and what hormones? For instance, what hormone is activated when insulted and how is this processed differently between males and females?

You more often see women listening to their emotions than men because you "know it to be true". You are blind to males who are blinded by their emotions.

Men are far from this robotic person a lot of people think them to be. They have motivations, fears, annoyances, sadness- just like women. They are depressed, jealous, angry. They scream, yell, hit and hurt. Your sole reason for being here is emotional. You do what you enjoy. Our feelings are so deeply integrated in everything, we can never separate them from our thoughts.

Also, I didn't get those two last lines.

That is up to the individual. Also, may we please look at the statistics which state that men are far more likely to be INTP than woman. Why? Because we are not as sensitive to emotions in the first place. :P

Those statistics are BS as well. People who just superficially know MBTI will very often mistype themselves. Women will more often mistype themselves as feelers, males as thinkers. Because their identity lies in those qualities. Having healthy self-esteem means we are biased; We see the good things we do and downplay the negative. Finding the right type isn't that easy.

So yes, women DO (for the most part) act in a more emotional manner than many of us.

What is "emotional manner", exactly? Perhaps women talk more among themselves when they are bothered, but that does not mean men don't feel anything in the same situation. But in many cases they are less inclined to say something, because that could ruin their manly manhood manliness. This is social, not genderial.

 

[cheese]

Yeah, I'm not really feeling this whole emotional, not-emotional thing.

 

[Minuend]

=(

Excuse me while I go over in the corner to be all emotional

 

[420MuNkEy]

If you're close enough with someone for them to feel comfortable showing you their gentiles, you should already know what you're going to see. If a guy wants to dress and act like a woman, what's the problem? Sure, there's physical genders, but what organs you have under your pants doesn't matter as much as people like to think.

 

[Ozymandias]

Being gay I find there are almost no gender expectations on me. It's quite liberating - I watch my 'straight' friends agonising over whether or not the fact that they kissed a guy compromises their masculinity and think, poor thing. Their freedom to act according to their inclinations seems to be really limited by their concern about what that implies about the labels they've embraced. I'm male sexed and I don't really bother to think about what my gender is.

I envy you.

I cannot see a single positive thing about assigning people gender roles based solely upon whether they were born with a penis or a vagina. As a male currently working in heavy industry I most certainly feel pressured to conform to a male stereotype which does not suit me at all.

And I do not buy the notion that females are more emotional than males. For all the times in my life I have cried infront of others or displayed any unmanly emotion, there are dozens of times where I've supressed those emotions due to not wanting to appear unmanly.

 

[Acedia]

While I dont think gender is going to disappear soon, I do think it's bound to happen eventually. The male-female dichotomy is more of a social role than a form of identity (though some might feel defined by it).

And what about girls with higher testosterone? Boys with higher estrogen? So how do intersex/hermaphrodite people fit into your boy/girl dichotomy?

Like psion noted, the issue is more complicated than social roles and tolerance/discrimination based on gender: discrimination towards women (men still have higher salaries, women are expected to be "girly", etc) will probably disappear when society is ready to accept other "genders" besides the two traditional ones.
Sometimes, if not most of the time, sex changes are based in hormonal or other kind of biological "dissorders", not just in vanity or mere dislike of the traditional dichotomy.

If you have a dick, you are a guy. If you don't, you are a girl. Accept that fact and move on.

No. Just no.



P.S: first post

 

[Jordan~]

I envy you.

I cannot see a single positive thing about assigning people gender roles based solely upon whether they were born with a penis or a vagina. As a male currently working in heavy industry I most certainly feel pressured to conform to a male stereotype which does not suit me at all.

And I do not buy the notion that females are more emotional than males. For all the times in my life I have cried infront of others or displayed any unmanly emotion, there are dozens of times where I've supressed those emotions due to not wanting to appear unmanly.

Well, it's great if your community is a liberal, middle class one. I came out at 14 and didn't get shit about it at all, just joking with friends (one of whom turned out to be gay, who had oral sex with one of the ones who's 'straight' and engaged to a woman, and another of whom has kissed four guys and said he wanted to have sex with one of them - the things straight guys tell you if you're gay...).
It'd probably have been pretty miserable if I'd grown up in New Christopolis, Omidahomas, USA, rather than Petit-Affluence-on-Tay, Scotland, L'Europe.
Here if I cried in front of others where it wasn't gender stereotype-appropriate, they'd just go, "Oh, well, he exists outside of normative gender rules and that's fine," rather than, "He exists outside of normative gender rules, let's burn the Jesus into him." People generally took my side, in fact - at the start of our last year we had to go to one of those stupid promoting-well-togetherness-through-teambuilding-synergy-initiatives camps for a week, and some guy in my year got put in a room with me and my friend (who's also gay) and said he didn't feel comfortable sharing a room with two gay guys; he was kinda stigmatised for the rest of the week. We just said he could switch rooms with one of our friends.
I suppose we have a culture of appreciating eccentrics, here, though, so if someone is strange-in-a-good-way people will just sort of put up with anything they do, generally speaking.

 

[Zionoxis]

One positive is that is science urrently being tested to fix hormonal imbalances, so hopefully, these problems may end up resolving themselves. Assuming sexuality is derived from hormone balance in the first place, we should have sexuality put back in check in the next decade. That being said, people will not have to worry about identity as their hormones will define their proper sex which will fix this issue.

Sexuality is whether you are male or female. It is not based upon what you feel you are. If you cry easily, you are emotional. That does not make you a female.

As for my previous point, women DO tend to be more emotional as estrogen levels tend to be higher. The only reason men show emotion more is due to lack of self control. We do not feel as deeply (which in turn, can be a strength). If you feel more deeply, then you are not considered more 'feminine'. Sex is only sex. Your behaviors are completely different. If one wants to act differently, let them, but they are still that sex.

Plastic surgery will only make you a freak. This liberal movement in my opinion, is disgusting.

 

[Acedia]

One positive is that is science urrently being tested to fix hormonal imbalances, so hopefully, these problems may end up resolving themselves. Assuming sexuality is derived from hormone balance in the first place, we should have sexuality put back in check in the next decade. That being said, people will not have to worry about identity as their hormones will define their proper sex which will fix this issue.

You make it sound like it's a disease.

 

[Jordan~]

"Liberal movement", solid observations from the social sciences; to-may-to, to-mah-to...

 

[psion]

One positive is that is science urrently being tested to fix hormonal imbalances, so hopefully, these problems may end up resolving themselves. Assuming sexuality is derived from hormone balance in the first place, we should have sexuality put back in check in the next decade. That being said, people will not have to worry about identity as their hormones will define their proper sex which will fix this issue.

Sexuality is whether you are male or female. It is not based upon what you feel you are. If you cry easily, you are emotional. That does not make you a female.

As for my previous point, women DO tend to be more emotional as estrogen levels tend to be higher. The only reason men show emotion more is due to lack of self control. We do not feel as deeply (which in turn, can be a strength). If you feel more deeply, then you are not considered more 'feminine'. Sex is only sex. Your behaviors are completely different. If one wants to act differently, let them, but they are still that sex.

Plastic surgery will only make you a freak. This liberal movement in my opinion, is disgusting.

These hormone imbalances can start in the womb, are you suggesting that doctors will be regulating the mothers hormone levels while they are pregnant and making them take pills because otherwise their child might be gay or transgender or intersex? I seriously doubt it. So what if a man has a high estrogen level from the time he is conceived? Will he be receiving hormone treatment in the womb, and then being forced to take testosterone his whole life? That sounds pretty unnatural to me (and possibly quite unhealthy, especially mentally), even more so than letting a conscious and aware adult make whatever decisions about their life that they choose to. Besides, we don't know that it is just hormone levels that cause this.

The idea of letting a conscious and aware adult do whatever they want in their own time with their own body even if you disagree with it is more capitalist than it is liberal (conservativism and capitalism have been taken to mean the same thing in our time, unfortunately. There was a time when capitalism was on the liberal agenda).

 

[cheese]

"Liberal movement", solid observations from the social sciences; to-may-to, to-mah-to...

I hope we start a movement that kills off the people who say 'to-may-to'. God, those people make me SICK.

 

[Jesse]

I disagree with you Zionoxis

 

[Oblivious]

One positive is that is science urrently being tested to fix hormonal imbalances, so hopefully, these problems may end up resolving themselves. Assuming sexuality is derived from hormone balance in the first place, we should have sexuality put back in check in the next decade. That being said, people will not have to worry about identity as their hormones will define their proper sex which will fix this issue.

Sexuality is whether you are male or female. It is not based upon what you feel you are. If you cry easily, you are emotional. That does not make you a female.

As for my previous point, women DO tend to be more emotional as estrogen levels tend to be higher. The only reason men show emotion more is due to lack of self control. We do not feel as deeply (which in turn, can be a strength). If you feel more deeply, then you are not considered more 'feminine'. Sex is only sex. Your behaviors are completely different. If one wants to act differently, let them, but they are still that sex.

Plastic surgery will only make you a freak. This liberal movement in my opinion, is disgusting.

Why is it that science to 'correct' your own natural hormone levels is 'good' while science to advance your freedom of choice makes you a 'freak'? It could be similarly argued that hormone treatment makes you as much of a freak as plastic surgery. It seems to me you are just cherry picking the science that aligns with your own moral judgements that you seek to impose.

The implication that a wholly personal choice to determine your own sex should be seen as a 'problem' implies a lack of tolerance towards the personal development of others just so that you can fit the world into easily understood boxes. The progression of society will not slow down just to keep pace with your faculties of comprehension.

Personal choice is not a disease. Imposition of values on the rest of society is. Fascism is disgusting. Get that straight.

I can think, or try to think as a woman does because I know the only difference between me and a woman is perspective and way of thinking. I believe I can simulate the way a woman thinks in different situations with a reasonable degree of accuracy.

However, I have made the personal decision to be and carry myself as a man. This decision is just as sacred and inalienable as if I were to choose to be a woman.

Off topic:
The religious right is certifiably schizophrenic for being able to advocate small government and the imposition of religious values at the same time.

 

[Joz_helloworld]

Hormones to make people something they are not?

That sounds pretty unnatural to me

^^This. Psion sums it up for me.

You are talking about altering a chemical makeup in a way which is affecting your mind, meanwhile calling people freaks for altering nothing but their bodies.

 

[420MuNkEy]

We'd be a pretty boring race if we all had the exact same hormone levels.

Variance needs to happen for evolution to occur.

 

[Black Rose]

When brain computer interfaces become sophisticated enough then in virtual reality you will be able to switch genders at will.

I usually play girl characters in video games and I do not physically have what it typical masculine quality's.

 

[psion]

When brain computer interfaces become sophisticated enough then in virtual reality you will be able to switch genders at will.

That would be really cool

 

[Jordan~]

Switch sex at will, you mean. You can switch (or 'shift' might be more appropriate) gender at will already.
I think I'd stick to my sex, though. I'm very happy with it. Cosmological money well spent.

 

[Zionoxis]

These hormone imbalances can start in the womb, are you suggesting that doctors will be regulating the mothers hormone levels while they are pregnant and making them take pills because otherwise their child might be gay or transgender or intersex? I seriously doubt it. So what if a man has a high estrogen level from the time he is conceived? Will he be receiving hormone treatment in the womb, and then being forced to take testosterone his whole life? That sounds pretty unnatural to me (and possibly quite unhealthy, especially mentally), even more so than letting a conscious and aware adult make whatever decisions about their life that they choose to. Besides, we don't know that it is just hormone levels that cause this.

The idea of letting a conscious and aware adult do whatever they want in their own time with their own body even if you disagree with it is more capitalist than it is liberal (conservativism and capitalism have been taken to mean the same thing in our time, unfortunately. There was a time when capitalism was on the liberal agenda).

Actually, it is more along the lines of one simply shot immediately after birth. The brain is affected and actually develops based on hormone level after birth. With the correct amount, one could take one shot and the brain would develop normally. The first year is the most crucial to development, anyhow.

It would not be that much of an extra hassle. Currently, there is positive feedback from the tests which are performed on lab rats. Hopefully, the experiments will begin moving forward from there.

And though I do not think it is a 'disease', I do believe it is a disorder in the brain. Much like Aspburgers, ADD, ADHD, etc.

 

[psion]

Actually, it is more along the lines of one simply shot immediately after birth. The brain is affected and actually develops based on hormone level after birth. With the correct amount, one could take one shot and the brain would develop normally. The first year is the most crucial to development, anyhow.

Except the hormone increase from one shot only lasts a week on average. Your genetics are what determine the hormone levels your body aims for. If there is an article from a reputable source that explains your point I would be happy to read it. I still don't completely agree that homosexuality and transgenderism are completely hormonal. Also, this doesn't address intersex or hermaphrodite persons, where the issue to be addressed would occur during prenatal development.

 

[Jordan~]

I'd argue that they're primarily cultural and barely if at all hormonal. Otherwise I guess the Greeks and Celts just went around pumping themselves full of oestrogen until the majority of their males were attracted to other males. I'd say the default is pansexuality and we limit that based on what our culture tells us is acceptable, what gender roles we adopt or have imposed on us, etc. etc., based on the observation of the staggering variation in norms and ideas of sex, gender and sexuality throughout time and space.

If any non-normative sexuality is a disorder then so, from another perspective, is normative sexuality. In fact, compared to if I were a heterosexual I've received little but benefit from my sexuality, so I'd say that I'd have a disorder if I were heterosexual since it would be causing me to suffer unduly. I'm sure my mental wellbeing and breadth of perspective would have been dramatically stunted by heterosexuality. And aren't gays on average better off financially? Perhaps we should be giving everyone shots to turn them gay.

I am parodying. The term 'disorder' is innately oppressive. I don't think ADHD is a disorder, either - or even depression - but rather a type of mental operation that's socially inconvenient. But I don't think that's a discussion for this thread.

 

[Trebuchet]

This liberal movement in my opinion, is disgusting.

That must make things very simple for you. Too bad it means your judgments will be wrong a lot of the time, and you won't even know it.

 

[psion]

That must make things very simple for you. Too bad it means your judgments will be wrong a lot of the time, and you won't even know it.

Amen to that.

 

[Oblivious]

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/06/26/turkey.gay.pride/

And a big welcome to progressive Islam as well.

 

[SpaceYeti]

http://www.npr.org/2011/06/23/137342682/the-end-of-gender?sc=fb&cc=fp

I dont understand what changing your looks has to do with solving the problem that comes with gender divisions. If its the person's choice, sure I dont care, but will it really solve the underlying problems? For example: What if a girl chooses to be feminine and guy chooses to be masculine? It still doesn't change the fact that there is a salary gap between males and females of similar rank within a company. Will gender neutralization (as in literally blurring your outward appearance) actually help it?? I really doubt it.

The fact of a salary gap is not indicative of any sort of unfairness. Further, the gap is far smaller than one might imagine. After factoring in that men tend to go for higher paying jobs instead of working for benefits, and when you factor in what jobs each gender actually goes for, it's no surprise men tend to get payed more. The getting paid more when in an analogous position is sheer hogwash. If, in the modern, Western world, it were discovered that a single company was doing this, they'd be sued up the ass. This is, quite simply, not an issue. Women's rights groups would like for it to be, but then why no unequal pay law suits? It is against the law, after all.

 

[Jennywocky]

It is for transsexuals, of which there is a growing number these days.

Most states now have plans in place to simplify gender marker changes on drivers license. Even passport changes have been simplified.

As for the gender neutral toilets, I think that really only affects transsexuals and such, it would help but I don't think it is the logical next step from where we are right now.

They're also called "family bathrooms," since families sometimes use them. Plus, some people aren't bothered by gender-neutral bathrooms.

Learning to use the other bathroom is something transgendered people just have to do.

What?

What do you mean by the "other" bathroom? Their old bathroom? Or their new?

Typically it's the non-transies that get pissy about the obvious transpeople in their bathrooms, it's not the transpeople. They're typically fine using bathrooms that correspond to their identified gender. And using their old bathroom while looking like the new gender, especially for someone born male dressed as a female and/or transitioning to female, is like to get the crapola beaten out of them.

Except the hormone increase from one shot only lasts a week on average. Your genetics are what determine the hormone levels your body aims for. If there is an article from a reputable source that explains your point I would be happy to read it. I still don't completely agree that homosexuality and transgenderism are completely hormonal. Also, this doesn't address intersex or hermaphrodite persons, where the issue to be addressed would occur during prenatal development.

There are particular windows of time in development (usually before birth) where hormone influxes impact gender differentiation, although there are also surges after birth depending on natural gender.

We already know that rats and other test animals show cross-gender sex orientation if those windows are exploited by researchers to pump them full of cross-gender hormones. XY rats will behave and present as females sexually, even when their genitalia is still male; and vice versa. It's not a far cry to intuit that human beings (and other animals) have the same mechanisms in place; it's simply that human beings are capable of choosing to override instinct and feelings in the process of adaptation... so even if someone identifies as one thing and is in great misery trying to be something they aren't, they can still try to do it if overall it seems to offer the largest chance for survival.

You have got to be kidding me...am I the only one who thinks society is taking a turn for the worst?

Yeah, apparently.

You cannot just deny gender. This makes me laugh a bit. Male and female are not one in the same...they are different. If you are a male, you are a male, and if you are a female, you are a female. People are so against sexism that they want to remove the differentiation between the two? That is like saying "I do not like black, so I refuse to say you are black and instead will say you are white." But he is still black...

Race is different than gender in many many ways.

If you have a dick, you are a guy. If you don't, you are a girl. Accept that fact and move on. Girls have a bit of trouble with emotions while guys have an overly powerful sex drive which in turn, acts as a catalyst to build muscle faster than women. That fact is irrefutable. High testosterone levels create faster muscle building. Men have higher levels so obviously, they build muscle faster. In turn, this tends to make men 'stronger' physically since not as much work is required.

Yes, there are bio-tendencies based on hormonal differentiation starting in the womb, even affecting brain mapping, that take the same basic "human template" and differentiate it. I think there's a wide variety of outcomes, and some of them even overlapping, within gender, so while we can discuss "tendencies" for each sex, we can't specifically say that a particular individual will be "X, Y, and Z." We can only generalize.

Conclusion: America has some serious issues as it currently stands. They are trying to hard to be 'equal' that they in turn, are just playing with the laws of nature and saying it is simply how someone 'is'. That is like homosexuality. A cause for homosexuality is currently being researched, and a cure is as well. Currently, it may have to do with a hormone imbalance created at birth. If all goes well, we may have the life cycle restored in the next decade.

Here's where you stop knowing what you're talking about.

One positive is that is science urrently being tested to fix hormonal imbalances, so hopefully, these problems may end up resolving themselves. Assuming sexuality is derived from hormone balance in the first place, we should have sexuality put back in check in the next decade. That being said, people will not have to worry about identity as their hormones will define their proper sex which will fix this issue.

Since I've been reviewing this research topic for the last twenty years (especially gender brain differentiation), as far as I know, your idea of one shot after birth to fix such things make no sense whatsoever.

As for my previous point, women DO tend to be more emotional as estrogen levels tend to be higher.

Estrogen is an interesting hormone, in that it seems to connect the emotions and thinking more to the body. Emotions thus resonate through the body and there can be autonomic responses like crying when scared or upset. Men seem to be far more easily able to overtly detach emotion from body and remain stoic.

Plastic surgery will only make you a freak. This liberal movement in my opinion, is disgusting.

Both of these statements, not just the second, are opinions.

And if you're discussing transpeople at this stage (who are different from homosexuals), sorry you find it easy to label an entire demographic of people as "freaks" because they're resolving a situation that is well-known in trained psychological circles to have no other viable recourse; the case study literature makes it clear that a medical solution has been overwhelmingly successful in restoring them to functionality and contentment, vs therapeutic methods meant to somehow reprogram the mind.

Who should we trust? An entire body of established researchers and doctors (psychiatrists, surgeons, and endocrinologists) who have worked for decades with patients suffering from a particular condition, or some random guy on a small typology web site who thinks such people are freaks?

Don't answer that.

 

[psion]

Most states now have plans in place to simplify gender marker changes on drivers license. Even passport changes have been simplified.

Awesome, I live in Canada so I wouldn't know. It's a quick $137 here in Ontario, no judge, even no publication in the paper if you don't want (not that anyone would really notice anyways).

They're also called "family bathrooms," since families sometimes use them. Plus, some people aren't bothered by gender-neutral bathrooms.

You know, I completely forgot about family bathrooms. :P I was thinking some random thing that just doesn't have a male or female sign on it haha.. It was late.

What?

What do you mean by the "other" bathroom? Their old bathroom? Or their new?

Typically it's the non-transies that get pissy about the obvious transpeople in their bathrooms, it's not the transpeople. They're typically fine using bathrooms that correspond to their identified gender. And using their old bathroom while looking like the new gender, especially for someone born male dressed as a female and/or transitioning to female, is like to get the crapola beaten out of them.

I meant the bathroom that matches their identified gender. I just meant that learning to feel comfortable in the right bathroom will boost your confidence and make you feel a lot better about yourself and your gender identity. Constantly avoiding going to the bathroom is just going to make you feel physically uncomfortable (obviously :P), and mentally as well (as if you can't even do something as simple as go to the washroom in the "right way"). Although the family washrooms would help this, but I don't think people would generally support money being spent on gender-neutral bathrooms, and bathrooms with stalls fit more people in a smaller space than family washrooms, so places generally only have one, if at all, and waiting in a line with a bunch of people with small children to go to the washroom isn't going to help your confidence at all.

I do suppose that sounded kind of harsh without explanation, didn't mean it to! I'm trans myself, and learning to use the washroom is just a part of the transition, it would be great if it wasn't but I don't think that's changing soon.

There are particular windows of time in development (usually before birth) where hormone influxes impact gender differentiation, although there are also surges after birth depending on natural gender.

We already know that rats and other test animals show cross-gender sex orientation if those windows are exploited by researchers to pump them full of cross-gender hormones. XY rats will behave and present as females sexually, even when their genitalia is still male; and vice versa. It's not a far cry to intuit that human beings (and other animals) have the same mechanisms in place; it's simply that human beings are capable of choosing to override instinct and feelings in the process of adaptation... so even if someone identifies as one thing and is in great misery trying to be something they aren't, they can still try to do it if overall it seems to offer the largest chance for survival.

Oh cool, I didn't know about that. I take it from reading your post that you study this kind of thing?

 

[Jordan~]

A cause for homosexuality is currently being researched, and a cure is as well.

Because I missed this dollop of repugnance until Jennywocky pointed it out like someone suggesting that the odd smell in a room may be a result of the person-shaped bump under the carpet, I didn't respond to it earlier.

First let me say that I don't think a cause for homosexuality will be found by people in labcoats unless they all go and get degrees in psychology, sociology or anthropology first. There are mentally healthy, functionally normal - screw it, happy - people who have a hormonal imbalance that may be expected to cause homosexuality but present as heterosexuals. There are also happy people who have no such hormonal imabalance but present as homosexuals. This is true of every proposed physiological cause of sexuality. I don't know if there's even any point anymore in raising the point that other cultures in other times and places present dramatically different notions of sexuality than ours and dramatically different rates of sexuality according to our notions, because it seems to fall on deaf ears.

I'm very glad of that, because it means that no such cure will ever be developed and we'll be one step further back from pathologising every aspect of ourselves until we're all identical to a false model of humanity. We already take pills to erode our socially inconvenient emotional responses and personalities, thank goodness we're unlikely to ever be able to erode our socially inconvenient genders and sexualities.

Science and reason aside, permit me to roll up my sleeves and say how deeply patronising, insulting and plain disgusting it is to hear anyone speak about a 'cure' for homosexuality. How constructive, how noble, how understanding. People kill themselves over this precisely because they're under the false impression that it's the sort of thing that ought to be cured. Had such a 'cure' existed at the time of my birth, what would that have meant for me? What would my poor, heterosexual parents be meant to think? The fact that a 'cure' exists and is called a 'cure' would obviously lead them to think that there was something to be 'cured'. I hope that the same reasoning that led my dad to oppose my being christened despite his Christianity at the time would have led him to oppose my being given a 'cure' for a sexuality I might potentially develop, but I suspect that in all likelihood they'd have yielded to the pressure and given the doctor the permission to go ahead.

And then what? If I, as I exist now, were given the option to have been 'cured' at birth I'd say, "No, under no circumstances, never, and if I ever say yes then ignore me and if I insist restrain me." I wouldn't exist - someone else would in my body, but I wouldn't. The most important thing that's ever happened to me wouldn't have. The highest highs and lowest lows of my life so far would have been consigned to fiction. My personality and whatever it may produce would never have occurred. When you say that it would be a good thing if there were a 'cure', what you're saying is functionally identical to the accusation that the world would be a better place had I and my gay friends and lovers never existed.

And when people say things like that, they've relinquished their right to a reasonable and level-headed discussion with me and they get a punch in their loathesome, evil face.

 

[xbox]

I still think family bathrooms are way different than sharing it with strangers. I already take extra precautions using ladies bathrooms.