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The effects of marijuana on an INTP

snafupants

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What's your poison then?



Sometimes, I can become more articulate but most the times I'll speak using more abstract language, then have to explain myself even more with endless and endless examples that pop into my mind. I suppose that my state is dependent on externalities: the person, environment, etc... I think I can smoke pot now, at this point in my life, without it really affecting my demeanor in speech, or my ability to explain things. But I might be wrong. I'll ask the next person I smoke pot with. No, actually, that sounds like an awful idea.

Valid question...my preference is for relatively innocuous yet potent euphoriants. Thus, coffee and psilocybin mushrooms and light amphetamine doses are congenial to my nature; I tend to like substances that act predominately on glutamate and dopamine receptors; to pass the snafu challenge, the substance must also perceivably increase consciousness without deleterious and somatic long-term effects...preferably, also, the substance would confer a benefit; weirdly I enjoy the effects of reishi mushroom, although that's pretty remote from how most view a drug, and it essentially runs counter to everything I just said.
 

ObliviousGenius

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Personally, I've come to really like the Fi and Se boosts. I'm REALLY empathetic when I'm high and also very aesthetic. It's amazing how many things I "see" when I'm high that I would normally be completely oblivious too.

More people are starting to say that their functions are reversing. Has anyone else felt more appreciation for drama movies (Fi) and things like photography etc. (Se)?
 

Awaken

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Personally, I've come to really like the Fi and Se boosts. I'm REALLY empathetic when I'm high and also very aesthetic. It's amazing how many things I "see" when I'm high that I would normally be completely oblivious too.

More people are starting to say that their functions are reversing. Has anyone else felt more appreciation for drama movies (Fi) and things like photography etc. (Se)?


to

I get the same thing. My thoughts are more clear, I am more caring and feel more "one" with my environment. Definitely a broader range of functions for me.

edit: oh shite, post 300!!!
 

Pizzabeak

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I feel like this thread is pretty accurate with the effects, as most people's posts have helped & I would like to contribute.

I got smoked out last night. 5-6 people were present. It seems like it depends on how much you smoke, some people can just keep smoking - seemingly 'chasing the dragon', although that's not what they would like to call it as they get offended or pull the "that's bitch shit" card at any point you refuse a smoke, perhaps they feel guilty.

If I smoke too much, I'll just fall asleep, that's why I'm convinced I don't "need" weed anymore. Last night when I smoked though, I noticed some things that may be helpful.

When I got there, Ip Man was on. When it ended I put Fritz the Cat on, and eventually a girl came over. She was a good friend of the host. Needless to say, "competition" occurred, mainly dudes trying to prove each chance they got that they weren't homosexual, I think. Understandable. She asked me my name and a few times tried to get me integrated into the convos, but I was mainly stoned out my mind the whole time observing. Content, despite how insane it probably made me look and what not. Oh well... I still had SOME interactions with people.

This girl had this way of speaking that relates to a thread I made about being paranoid, or experiencing "apophenia". Just putting that out there.

Okay, at one point one of my friends said out loud (but still probably directed towards her) ((backstory: they were watching creepy vids on an iPad, dudes getting hit by cars, animals being mutilated; etc and all sharing moments of empathy together. I was watching them, basically.)) Anyway, he said: "I've already seen two cats have sex earlier, so I'm down to watch anything" (something of that extent). She said, 'where'd you see that?' Then there was silence. There was silence because he saw that when I put Fritz the Cat on, but he didn't want to say that aloud. I considered saying it in this tone that I used a few times before, but I kept silent. Had a few more seconds of opportunity to get that information out there, but the topic eventually changed to something else.

If you're somewhat stoned, these types of 'opportunities', I think, will be easier to notice. Another example of this happened that day, but I forgot.

I played the fool a few times that night as well, best chalk it up as learning experience I guess.


EDIT: I remember. Some time after, we put on DMT: The Spirit Molecule. They were entertained. I read the book. After it ended, she asked when the doc came out. Silence. My friend answered unenthusiastically and very 'basic' ("not too long ago...")
I considered saying like: "Well the book came out around '01, but the doc like last year..' but decided not to for whatever reason. Topic eventually changed. Yeah..
 

Awaken

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Also to note, there is a huge difference between the effects of an Indica vs Sativa vs combination of the two.
 

Pizzabeak

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Considering the significance of those differences, set & setting might be the thing that makes the most difference, so.
 

Meer

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Hmm, I wouldn't say that my functions reverse attitude. I have experienced crazy empathy from out of the blue and I always feel more connected to my body, but I think that's still Fe and Si.
 

Tannim

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For myself I find that I get more coherent in my internal monolog its slows down and fills out more if that makes any sense.

Snafupants what do you mean by a myriad of side affects?

For the people who are worried about the paranoid feeling remember set and setting are important if you spent the whole time while your high worried that your momma or the police are going to bust you of course it will mess up your high smoke in a safe place that you can relax in
 

the_s_rabbit

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Relaxation,
Giddiness,
Monumental epiphanies soon forgotten (wow man, totally that's the best idea ev...holy...look at that guy...heeheeheeheehee),
Enhanced perception (sights, sounds, smells, sense of space/time),
Paranoia (depending on the surrounding environment),
Blurred vision

I don't really find that any aspects of my personality really change at all. I just get really stupid and giddy.
Granted, most of my experience is from crossfading with booze.

Ron Paul for president. :smoker:
 

Otherside

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This is a c/p of a post I made in another thread this evening.

Marijuana messed up my life pretty badly. I'd used it regularly for most of my adult life, and then around the age of 32 I was hit with a double-whammy of being laid off from my job and the birth of my daughter. I became increasingly paranoid when getting high and gradually slipped into a psychosis. It was so traumatic (internally devastating) that I still haven't recovered ten years later.

I think it's OK to use it sparingly (once a day or less) under normal circumstances and have always been in favor of its legalization. However, it is not benign under all circumstances.
 

ObliviousGenius

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I became increasingly paranoid when getting high and gradually slipped into a psychosis.

Hmm? How can you relate your marijuana use to long-term psychosis when it has no real long term effects. Paranoia and psychotic symptoms are completely temporary while high. I don't know how you can "slip into psychosis".

The problem sounds like it's coming from yourself and the choices that you've made. You control the weed, the weed doesn't control you. It doesn't make sense for you blame all your problems on weed. I'm afraid you are one of those people that makes the stoner stereotype live on. All the successful weed smokers are the ones who smoke for pleasure, not as a coping mechanism.
 

Awaken

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There is such a thing as drug induced psychosis and weed is a drug noted to be able to cause it.
 

Otherside

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I'm not trying to influence anyone to do anything or not do anything. I'm wondering how you can be so certain regarding the facts of my situation, when I'm the one who has lived it. You don't have to do very much research to see that I'm not an ignorant person trying to spread false myths. It's fine to be pro marijuana but you have to take (and accept) the truth both good and bad. Are you really saying that something that can cause such a powerful change in mood and perception couldn't be related to a psychological change?
 

ObliviousGenius

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I'm not trying to influence anyone to do anything or not do anything. I'm wondering how you can be so certain regarding the facts of my situation, when I'm the one who has lived it. You don't have to do very much research to see that I'm not an ignorant person trying to spread false myths. It's fine to be pro marijuana but you have to take (and accept) the truth both good and bad. Are you really saying that something that can cause such a powerful change in mood and perception couldn't be related to a psychological change?

You said yourself that after you lost your job and had a kid it was traumatic for you. That means that some people are more psychologically fragile than others. I just don't see how you can see it's the weed that's giving you these negative feelings. If anything it only amplified how you already feel, and that goes for positive emotions as well. I don't think it changes from positive feelings to negative feelings and vice-versa.

Personally I have never had any negative feelings towards weed at all. I believe that mainly stems from me being an aspie and negative feelings, depression, etc. is pretty much non-existent for me. I do realize however that some people could be more susceptible than others. In your case, you should not take it because if you still had not gotten over this trauma after 10 years then weed probably isn't good for you. That being said I can't see how the weed is the CAUSE of your problems. You said that it ruined your life.
 

P.H.

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If he hadn't gone psychotic without the weed, then surely weed was part of the cause. It's like an equation; 1 + 1 = 2.

susceptible to weed induced psychosis + weed = weed induced psychosis.

With just susceptibleness or weed the outcome won't be psychosis. I think both weed and susceptibleness are equally a cause.

I don't understand why you're getting so offensed (or it seems) because of somebody's bad experience, ObliviousGenius. Otherside didn't say weed was the cause of all his problems, just that it was a bad time for him to get high.
 

ObliviousGenius

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Y'all are missing the point. It's not really about the weed. It's about otherside coming to the realization that it is not the weed that is the cause of his problems. It sounds like he is blaming his problems on drugs. Most people go through something hard at some point, and most people get over it too, with or without the use of drugs. I only even made a point of this so he can come to turns with himself. I don't agree with your 1+1=2 equation. It's more like 99+1=100. With the 99 equal to his susceptibility to psychosis etc. For his case, it's the straw that broke the camel's back (I think that's how it goes).

Furthermore, I'm not offended, I just tell the harsh truth. Sorry if anyone else is offended by my comments, or if I seemed rude.
 

Awaken

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Y'all are missing the point. It's not really about the weed. It's about otherside coming to the realization that it is not the weed that is the cause of his problems. It sounds like he is blaming his problems on drugs. Most people go through something hard at some point, and most people get over it too, with or without the use of drugs. I only even made a point of this so he can come to turns with himself. I don't agree with your 1+1=2 equation. It's more like 99+1=100. With the 99 equal to his susceptibility to psychosis etc. For his case, it's the straw that broke the camel's back (I think that's how it goes).

Furthermore, I'm not offended, I just tell the harsh truth. Sorry if anyone else is offended by my comments, or if I seemed rude.

@ObliviousGenius

I could be wrong, but I dont think Tannem was implying that weed caused all of his/her problems in the same vein that a sheeple would state weed is terrible and will ruin your life; which seems to be the actual sentiment that you are refuting. Instead, Tannem was saying that the psychosis he/she experienced that was INDUCED by weed CAUSED his/her life to be ruined. I did not get the impression that ALL problems in his/her post were being attributed to weed, simply the specific problem of psychosis and how it affected his/her life. So is this a problem of semantics/wording, or are you refuting that weed can induce psychosis?
 

ObliviousGenius

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@ObliviousGenius

I could be wrong, but I dont think Tannem was implying that weed caused all of his/her problems in the same vein that a sheeple would state weed is terrible and will ruin your life; which seems to be the actual sentiment that you are refuting. Instead, Tannem was saying that the psychosis he/she experienced that was INDUCED by weed CAUSED his/her life to be ruined. I did not get the impression that ALL problems in his/her post were being attributed to weed, simply the specific problem of psychosis and how it affected his/her life. So is this a problem of semantics/wording, or are you refuting that weed can induce psychosis?

I'm saying that weed can cause psychosis, but he is so depressed psychologically that it is the weed that is putting him over the top. I wanted him to understand that it was the weed that is making him worse. I know plenty of people who smoke literally every time they come down from their high and our sane, bright people. I didn't understand how he could say that weed was causing his problems without first looking at his problems while sober.
 

ObliviousGenius

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Ok, this is my third update on this theory and it's a lot simpler.

Marijuana turns P to J and J to P.
 

TriflinThomas

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I was thinking about this today, and came to the conclusion that in general the effects of weed on my mind can be summarized pretty well by saying that it reverses each of my functions.

Introverted thinking becomes extroverted thinking. Instead staying in my head, I tend to be more comfortable and almost eager to speak my mind and go through my thought processes verbally.

Extroverted intuition becomes introverted....this one is a little harder to describe but I think its that rather than focusing on using outside information to think about new possibilities.. I instead tend to think about existing information and what its implications for the future are.

Introverted sensing to extroverted is pretty easy....sound, taste,touch,smell..all of these senses become much more intense and interesting. I focus on this rather than processing sensory data internally.

And then there's feeling..which I think is the most interesting besides thinking. Becoming an introverted feeler is a very rewarding experience. Being able to identify my emotions clearly and connect with others an on emotional level is probably one of the things I like most about smoking.

Thoughts?
I'm the same. But it also quiets the constant stream of thought in my head; I used it to feel "normal" a.k.a. squash my Ne
 
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Interesting thread, just found this forum and its good to see same langauage spoken everywhere. Feels good to be among fellow INTPs!

I just smoked a joint. I am in "high" almost every hour of my waking life (except the time between waking up and my first joint) these days. I smoke hashish (charas, from the himalayas) which is just a purer form and less of head aches.

Amplification of extraverted sensing is obvious (now, as I type). But if there are no external objects of interest or significance I can go into introverted sensing and worry or analyze all the unfinished stuff. Intuition also becomes a bit introverted, but again extraverted intuition can kick in. Feeling also is more introverted. I can get into extraverted thinking mode more easily. So my experiences support the OP's observations.

I used to get panic attacks before, but not these days, in my case that was always due to my insecurity and misunderstanding. I also do a bit of meditation these days (mindfulness, insight meditation) and may be the absence of negative experiences are due to that. When I smoke these days, I get an instant dose of energy that pushes me straight into rapture or tranquility.

I guess availability of all functions (although only one of intraverted or extraverted function will be available at a time) is confusing which can lead to instability and insecurity and eventually into a panic attack, if one is not aware.
 

Philosophyking87

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The one time I got high, I was trying to solve math equations verbally.
I remember mumbling about square roots.
So I'm guessing the switch from Ti to Te sort of makes sense.
 

nedenom

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I am one of those who become even more introverted when smoking. Extremely introverted. My mind races off and I am incapable of keeping up with a conversation when with others. I also become too self-aware and anxious of uncomfortable situations. So smoking is best done alone for me, then I can utilize it to "root" myself and connect. I get a much stronger and deeper feeling about what is right (joy) and wrong (anxiety) for me. Creativity and inspiration is sometimes boosted. I'm not sure yet what particular functions these alterations applies to...

Also, the THC/CBD ratio in the cannabis may greatly affect the experience. While THC is more psyhcoactive, the CBD has an antipsychotic effect which somewhat cancels out the negative effects of THC. Thus, super skunk frizzes me out while hashish makes me more mellow.
 

MissQuote

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If I use marijuana I am rendered practically mute, semi catatonic and I am unable to cease the flow of chatter and thoughts and paranoia in my brain. I usually end up having a mini existential crisis in which I decide I am utterly psychotic most whenever sober, that there is something seriously wrong with me. If I get too high I hallucinate, not seeing things that aren't there, but having everything that is there distort horribly.

Something similar to the marijuana induced psychosis talked about earlier in the thread.

Anytime I tell people this someone comes along and tells me I must have tried weed that was tainted with some other drug. Or that I just smoked stuff that was too strong. Or that I should try it again under different circumstances.

I used to be able to enjoy it and partake anytime I pleased. I also partook of many other drugs including many strong hallucinogens and amphetamines. It was after using too many amphetamines for several years straight (I've been clean off of them for over 10 years now) that marijuana started to affect me differently, that it began to have these weird effects similar to a bad acid trip on my brain.

My brain just does something weird with THC, that I know is not normal because it used to not do this. I usually just tell people I am allergic instead of trying to explain this an then having a bunch of stoned people try to pressure me into it or act like I don't know my drugs and I just had one bad experience and need to give it another shot in a safe environment with them. I've given it many try's over the years, always with the same results. Then I made the decision to not try anymore after a particularly bad high about three years ago. I haven't smoked, or eaten any since. I wish I could enjoy it like I could as a teenager, because I remember it being great, but it just does more harm to me now instead of good.

All that said. I support full legalization 100%. Because at the end of the day it is a plant that does more good than harm, and my own weird issues with what it does to my own brain is not a representation of what it does for others or the good it could do to legalize it for society.
 

kora

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Personally, it makes me paranoid, even if i´m with friends. But I think I´m just not that used to it yet. It makes my thoughts speed up to the point where i can hardly follow them, I think I have strokes of genius but then the next second I can´t remember them, of course that could easily be the weed making me think I´m having strokes of genius I suppose... I´m completely in my own world when high, it makes my introversion come out, i´m good one on one or by myself. Then I LOVE it :-)

Oh and it makes kurt cobain´s voice even better, to the point where it´s orgasmic.
 

Darby

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I've only smoked twice, I've brought up the first one before (although I don't think in this thread). Both times were nothing but paranoia, specifically solipsism and the like.

First time was with just me and my best friend, I blacked out and went bat shit nuts, thought I was dead and was being punished by God for being an awful person by being forced to live the same event over and over again for all eternity. (some of my friends claim it might have had Salvia in it)

Second time I was with more friends, all of them knew what they were doing. I spent the entire time arguing with myself over whether or not the universe was real, and how I would be able to tell if I was stuck in a loop again. I ultimately came to the conclusion that I couldn't, and if I really wanted to live with that, I need to make my life as good as possible, otherwise I'm putting myself through an infinite loop of mediocrity and feeling worthless.

For me I have an internal monologue going all the time, with two sides/voices trying to voice their opinions too. Both know me far better than I know myself, one side tends to help me try and find my way through this world. the other embodies all of my fears and paranoia. When high, there's only only one voice giving me any input, and it isn't the pleasant one.

At this point I would smoke only for curiosity and to figure out why I get so paranoid. however just smelling it around raises my anxiety level ten-fold, so perhaps it's not such a great idea.
 

snafupants

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I would only consider smoking cannabis in the future to enhance orgasm and aural delight; I had, bar none, the warmest, most intense, mind-numbingly life-affirming orgasm of my life after smoking ganja. Feeling euphoric, however, is something that cannabis consistently failed to deliver to and register on my physiology. The general cognitive effect was redolent of breathing in paint fumes or being the unwitting victim of inadequate sleep or getting walloped in the eye: caveat emptor! I prefer coffee, daily, and potent psychedelics, sparingly. Smoking stuff was never my cup of tea anyway. As proviso, I should add my nonpartisanship with the INTP confederation since this thread was ostensibly created with the purpose of gleaning type specific information.
 

kantor1003

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I have a question. I have not experimented too much with this drug, but I've made some observations the times I have and I wonder whether someone has had any similar experience, or whether there is any theories around the subject.

I'm left with the impression that it gives me, partly, access to some areas of my unconscious that makes up much of what I am today. Plenty of times, I've just been laying in my bed surprising myself, and enjoying the amount of childhood memories that I can manifest at will. Memories that I normally don't visit, or know if I even have access to. I even remember saying to myself in such a state "look, see what I can do!" then I summon 4-5 extremely emotionally charged memories that I haven't revisited since childhood, or if at all since the moment of them happening. "See? I got more" Then I continue. "I can do this all day!". And so it goes. It must be said however, this is also in a hypnagogic state, so it might enhance certain properties. I have also found myself writing it down (the memories) so I can revisit them in ordinary consciousness and when I did, I found that they indeed wasn't only the crazed fantasies of a drugged mind. When I revisited one of those notes just now (I had forgotten that I had written them) it also, in addition to list several memories, said that my current, living existence (referring to myself in ordinary consciousness as it is in any given moment) should be more influenced by my experience and memories that have formed who I am - that it should be that which gives me my "value foundation", sense of purpose and color my existence in a positive way (I had a good childhood).
Wether or not I agree doesn't really matter: When thinking about it, I've realized how much I've separated myself from my past. I'm like a lost soul wandering in timeless abstract conceptualizations of things and structures that doesn't really exist, or entertaining hypotheticals of future, distancing myself from all that is, in essence, myself (and my closest), or at least what has contributed to what is myself today.

Perhaps it's just, as Max Stirner points out, something belonging to early adulthood - being focused on ideas and concepts primarily that is, and not so much looking to see "what's under the rock" as one would do in childhood.
 

interstate8

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I smoke pretty much all day, everyday. Probably not good, but it helps make my classes go by faster and keeps me interested in whatever I'm doing. The only thing that I don't like about is that it becomes the basis of some friendships, some people only want to hang out if weed's involved or whatever.
 

miggslives

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At first, when I started smoking, this was true. I was more open and friendly and ready to mingle. But, as the years went by and smoking became normal and routine, I would get high and go back to my INTP mentality. As the gateway drug, I agree it is very sad, and I admit it, that sometimes I must smoke or drink or do other drugs in order to open myself to other people. And my curiosity of the mind and the world has led me to the psychedelics, which at first I enjoyed, but as I would do them more my mind would get used to them and would again bring me back to my INTP mentality, and I would close up and shut down.

Currently, I still smoke weed daily if I can. It brings me "back." Keeps me calm. Allows me to stop constantly worrying about the future and about life and its impending doom. But, in the long run, I do see that it has kind of worsened the problems that it originally cured. And I would agree with others to say that it has led to some depression after post-analyzing me taking up smoking in the first place, and my continued use of marijuana.
 

cerebedlam

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I haven't any firsthand experience with any flipping of the functions....But, for sure, my primary 'Thinking' function gets magnified a hundredfold at particular times while under the influence...

....Depending on my psychological state/health during that particular month, I'll tend to go inside much further and deeper and suddenly become privy to incredible insights on the nature of reality, space/time, religion, etc....

I've seen and understood things at a much more profound level, AND, most importantly, made connections and parallels between seemingly unrelated concepts and things while under the influence...

During one particularly 'frail' state of mind, and enduring much stress and depression at the time, I was freaking out my close friends and family on a near daily basis with the constant bombardment of profound insights I was experiencing...

There seems to be MUCH evidence on WHY and HOW something like MARIJUANA might trigger such an effect in those who are teetering on some unstable precipice of mental health...

Look into HYPER-PRIMING and DIVERGENT THINKING...

http://virtualonlineeditions.com/article/Marijuana_And_Divergent_Thinking/682992/65390/article.html

http://www.mendeley.com/research/hy...dy-effects-cannabis-semantic-memory-function/

http://mindhacks.com/2010/03/09/how-cannabis-makes-thoughts-tumble/

...AND, YES, those insights I've had while under the influence of MJ still stand up under the scrutiny of sober and healthy minds...These are the types of insights that one would never even have functioning with a sober and healthy mind...TOO many inhibitory obstacles are in place with stable, socially-oriented minds....

http://dopemagazineonline.com/high-iq-cannabis-creativity/
http://www.dangerousminds.net/comments/marijuana_promotes_creativity
 

drifting cloud

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I love how it alters the texture of experience - it can be a lot of fun. But I try to limit my use since I feel like I become depressed if I use regularly (for me, more than a few times per month). Also, it tends to suppress dreams, and I'm trying to explore lucid dreaming, so I am probably going to stay off the mj for a while.
 

Ninjamanda

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I don't want to sound like a complete stoner but I love smoking. It makes me more extraverted, I don't care as much about what I am saying outloud. I find everything more interesting and I feel like I can understand people better because it allows me to see with eyes unclouded by hate. It has also helped me to be more patient and understanding in relationships. Instead of getting annoyed by things my significant other is doing, I get amused and I appreciate the change I have endured. I know it seems silly that a simple drug can open your eyes so much.

It helps me relax. I was such a douche before I started smoking. I get motivated to do productive things. I clean, I write, I enjoy doing home work. Haha the only thing about cleaning when I am high is I won't stop for hours because it makes me extremely OCD about every detail.

I don't enjoy any other drugs really, and I don't like drinking much either.

I think it makes most things better... food, music, movies, going out, sex, screwing around on the internet, video games. It has helped me loosen up and not be so stressed all the time.

I am such a worrier, and smoking prevents my head from exploding.

My favorite thing on the planet is eating, and why not enhance it and make it taste even better.

I hope to only have good experiences with it, I don't want it to become a negative thing for me. I haven't let it effect my daily life or anything. But everyone experiences it differently and I would never pressure anyone into doing it.

But seriously, everyone should smoke weed haha.
 

NinjaSurfer

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^I agree with all your sentiments
about the making you extraverted part, me too, it makes me want to talk to people in 'real' life, versus just online
 

redbaron

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I've done it a few times with good friends. I felt relaxed and 'at peace' with myself. But ultimately the drug didn't change anything. It didn't improve my functioning in day-to-day life, and from what I can tell of my friends who do smoke it doesn't improve their abilities noticeably.

In fact they aren't my friends any more. Not because they smoke, they're just deadbeats.

Overall I view it as a waste of time. I learned nothing I didn't know already. I felt great, amazing even, but smoking to feel better about myself? Pass. Don't need it.

Using it as a coping mechanism is just a cop-out to me. I can see why someone might do it, but I think there are better ways to deal with things.

If you really need a drug to be able to relax and enjoy yourself, maybe you need to do some serious soul-searching.
 

NinjaSurfer

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I've done it a few times with good friends. I felt relaxed and 'at peace' with myself. But ultimately the drug didn't change anything. It didn't improve my functioning in day-to-day life, and from what I can tell of my friends who do smoke it doesn't improve their abilities noticeably.

In fact they aren't my friends any more. Not because they smoke, they're just deadbeats.

Overall I view it as a waste of time. I learned nothing I didn't know already. I felt great, amazing even, but smoking to feel better about myself? Pass. Don't need it.

Using it as a coping mechanism is just a cop-out to me. I can see why someone might do it, but I think there are better ways to deal with things.

If you really need a drug to be able to relax and enjoy yourself, maybe you need to do some serious soul-searching.

I can't find mine.

gadget.jpg
 

Moocow

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@redbaron Does that include caffeine? I guess you find the recreational consumption of chocolate to be a sign of weakness as well? Ice cream? Video games? Movies? Music? Do you use any of these, or are you above their influence too?

@Ninjamanda Agreed on all points. I think I was really stuck up before, and sometimes it really does help me remain detached and open minded, especially when it comes to understanding people that are very different from me.

@drifting cloud I also miss lucid dreaming. However I think that is a lifestyle shift as well, and it's become a lot easier to attend to the real world at the sacrifice of attending to my internal world in such ways. Although there is a phenomenon I've noticed whereupon stopping use, REM sleep seems to rebound and give even stronger, longer dreams for a short time before returning to baseline.
 

redbaron

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@redbaron Does that include caffeine? I guess you find the recreational consumption of chocolate to be a sign of weakness as well? Ice cream? Video games? Movies? Music? Do you use any of these, or are you above their influence too?

I said nothing about recreational use. I clearly stated that when used as a coping mechanism or when it is used because the person needs it to relax.

Using it as a coping mechanism is just a cop-out to me. I can see why someone might do it, but I think there are better ways to deal with things.

If you really need a drug to be able to relax and enjoy yourself, maybe you need to do some serious soul-searching.

Nowhere did I mention that using any of the things you mentioned for recreational purposes was a sign of weakness. Maybe that's a thought of your own construction instead, because it certainly isn't mine.

If you rely on and require a psychosis-inducing substance simply to function effectively in day-to-day life, then yes I would consider it a weakness. Failure to deal with the underlying issue by using drugs as a coping mechanism is only going to delay the point where it becomes overwhelming.

There is a difference between simply having something that can improve your experience, and relying on something to improve your experience. I am open to and have experimented with drugs at clubs, festivals and raves.

But I've been to them without taking anything as well and had just as much, if not more fun. I'd say I actually enjoyed being in a coherent state of mind more, as opposed to just being totally shit-faced and drooling over the pretty lights and loud noises.

First develop the self-discipline to live drug-free. Then try drugs. Doing it the other way around just creates dependency. This way, you never crave a drug because you never crave the experience or feeling it brings, whatever it is.

If you're already the person you want to be, there's no point taking drugs to be different. If you're not the person you want to be and that's why you take drugs, change the person you are, don't keep taking drugs.

Nothing I have read here leads me to believe that habitual users of marijuana do it for any other purpose than to feel better about themselves, or because they find their own abilities lacking in its absence.

I hasten to add that the keyword here is habitual. Please try not to misconstrue the meaning of my posts again by assuming that I mean everyone who has ever smoked marijuana or who smokes it recreationally.
 

Moocow

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I said nothing about recreational use. I clearly stated that when used as a coping mechanism or when it is used because the person needs it to relax.



Nowhere did I mention that using any of the things you mentioned for recreational purposes was a sign of weakness. Maybe that's a thought of your own construction instead, because it certainly isn't mine.

If you rely on and require a psychosis-inducing substance simply to function effectively in day-to-day life, then yes I would consider it a weakness. Failure to deal with the underlying issue by using drugs as a coping mechanism is only going to delay the point where it becomes overwhelming.

There is a difference between simply having something that can improve your experience, and relying on something to improve your experience. I am open to and have experimented with drugs at clubs, festivals and raves.

But I've been to them without taking anything as well and had just as much, if not more fun. I'd say I actually enjoyed being in a coherent state of mind more, as opposed to just being totally shit-faced and drooling over the pretty lights and loud noises.

First develop the self-discipline to live drug-free. Then try drugs. Doing it the other way around just creates dependency. This way, you never crave a drug because you never crave the experience or feeling it brings, whatever it is.

If you're already the person you want to be, there's no point taking drugs to be different. If you're not the person you want to be and that's why you take drugs, change the person you are, don't keep taking drugs.

Nothing I have read here leads me to believe that habitual users of marijuana do it for any other purpose than to feel better about themselves, or because they find their own abilities lacking in its absence.


I hasten to add that the keyword here is habitual. Please try not to misconstrue the meaning of my posts again by assuming that I mean everyone who has ever smoked marijuana or who smokes it recreationally.

The bolded part is precisely what I was responding to. And nowhere did I say I needed it to "feel good about myself" or find my abilities lacking. I'm attacking your vague distinction between recreational and coping. Could you tell me where those two things really separate? Habitual doesn't imply dependent, and doesn't exclude recreational.

Also we weren't born doing drugs. I'm pretty sure most people have given strict sobriety a good shot before checking out the alternatives.

I will admit, I need my daily cup(s) of green tea to function normally. If I don't get them I am sluggish, slow witted, and irritable. I've chosen this very well defined dependence because there are other benefits to making a habit of it. Now, does this make me something other than my ideal, self actualized whole?
 

Brontosaurie

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each time I smoke I write "the logical song" by supertramp, only in retrospect realizing it already existed.
 

redbaron

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Nowhere did I say I needed it to "feel good about myself" or find my abilities lacking. I'm attacking your vague distinction between recreational and coping. Could you tell me where those two things really separate? Habitual doesn't imply dependent, and doesn't exclude recreational.

Habitual implies addiction in medical terms e.g. Habitual intoxication, habitual drug-use. I've never heard the term, "Habitual recreational drug-user."

But to avoid confusion I'll elaborate on the difference between recreational smoking, and smoking as a coping mechanism and where the distinction lies.

If you smoke it recreationally - "of or relating to the occasional use, asserted not to be addictive."

A recreational smoker doesn't have the desire to smoke for the purpose of improving their ability to function in certain areas or deal with stress. They smoke because it is enjoyable, and if they stopped smoking altogether, it wouldn't impact how they cope with stress.

Coping - a person's patterns of response to stress.

If you smoke in part because it makes you feel less stressed, you are using it as a coping mechanism. An ineffective way of dealing with stress. Doesn't solve the issue, just pushes it aside until later. Smoking to help you socialize or to help a relationship is smoking to deal with stress.

The key difference is pretty simple. Even though the recreational smoker might be less stressed when they smoke, they don't rely on the drug to reduce and cope with stress.

The why you smoke is more important than how often you smoke. While drugs alter the chemicals in the body, it is nothing compared to the mental crippling people inflict upon themselves by failing to deal with the root cause of their issues. What are you going to do, just smoke weed all the time to feel better about yourself, and hope the issue goes away in the meantime?

As for the green tea analogy, I laughed. I've never understood the, "I need my coffee" mentality that so many people seem to have. I am who I am and the thought that whether or not I had a cup of tea in the morning would impact my mental or physical capacity just makes me laugh. Seems like the biggest placebo in the world.

There are things that are, 'nice' to do but ultimately have no impact. I like to have a big breakfast when I get up. If I'm running late, I'll skip it. This has absolutely no impact on my mood or ability to think during the day, and why should it? Why should my mental, physical and emotional capacity be diminished in a noticeable way, just because I didn't get to have the breakfast I wanted?

Such a first world problem, I don't even give things like this a second thought. "Oh boy I'm hungry, I didn't get to eat my usual breakfast!"

Meanwhile kids are starving on the other side of the world and can't even get a drop of the fresh water we have on tap, and I'm worrying about whether or not I had a green tea this morning.

I can imagine the look on the kid's face after I tell him I sleep in a warm bed every night, have the luxury of as much drinking water as I please and eat 3 meals a day - that I'm irritable because I didn't get to drink my green tea this morning.

First world problems buddy, first world problems. Get over them. They mean nothing, and any thought or concern for them is just a waste.
 

ObliviousGenius

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@redbaron Thanks for giving us the J approach. I don't think you understand the reasons people smoke weed.

I don't correlate the thought of smoking weed to help with stress as a weakness. Your definition of "habitual" is wrong as well. Apparently we all hate ourselves and need weed to lift ourselves up. Maybe you should reread the thread without your own subjective bias as to what you're reading.
 

Moocow

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You said:
If you smoke in part because it makes you feel less stressed, you are using it as a coping mechanism. An ineffective way of dealing with stress. Doesn't solve the issue, just pushes it aside until later. Smoking to help you socialize or to help a relationship is smoking to deal with stress.
Me said:
@redbaron Does that include caffeine? I guess you find the recreational consumption of chocolate to be a sign of weakness as well? Ice cream? Video games? Movies? Music? Do you use any of these, or are you above their influence too?
The question stands in regards to this point. Do you only relieve stress by solving problems? Recreation has no part in your stress management?

The key difference is pretty simple. Even though the recreational smoker might be less stressed when they smoke, they don't rely on the drug to reduce and cope with stress.
Humoring your definitions... so what makes you think all marijuana smokers rely on it to cope?

The why you smoke is more important than how often you smoke. While drugs alter the chemicals in the body, it is nothing compared to the mental crippling people inflict upon themselves by failing to deal with the root cause of their issues. What are you going to do, just smoke weed all the time to feel better about yourself, and hope the issue goes away in the meantime?
Who has the omniscience to tell anyone "why" they use a drug? Do you believe everyone's rationalizations? Do you believe all of your own? If society is going to tell me why I do something I may begin to believe it, or I may come up with my own reasons, but even so I would simply be coming up with them, as opposed to others who are simply borrowing them. It's particularly common for accusers such as yourself to declare knowledge of the big why questions when it suits your prejudices.
And again, what makes you think even a majority of marijuana smokers do nothing but smoke all day?

As for the green tea analogy, I laughed. I've never understood the, "I need my coffee" mentality that so many people seem to have. I am who I am and the thought that whether or not I had a cup of tea in the morning would impact my mental or physical capacity just makes me laugh. Seems like the biggest placebo in the world.

There are things that are, 'nice' to do but ultimately have no impact. I like to have a big breakfast when I get up. If I'm running late, I'll skip it. This has absolutely no impact on my mood or ability to think during the day, and why should it? Why should my mental, physical and emotional capacity be diminished in a noticeable way, just because I didn't get to have the breakfast I wanted?

Such a first world problem, I don't even give things like this a second thought. "Oh boy I'm hungry, I didn't get to eat my usual breakfast!"

Meanwhile kids are starving on the other side of the world and can't even get a drop of the fresh water we have on tap, and I'm worrying about whether or not I had a green tea this morning.

I can imagine the look on the kid's face after I tell him I sleep in a warm bed every night, have the luxury of as much drinking water as I please and eat 3 meals a day - that I'm irritable because I didn't get to drink my green tea this morning.

First of all, caffeine dependence is real and starving children in Africa aren't going to have it because they can't afford or access caffeine!

Secondly, your anecdotal report of caffeine use / disuse doesn't disqualify the empirical evidence which happens to corroborate my own experience with it. It has real effects and creates real dependency with certain schedules of use. I appreciate your overwhelming righteousness but my first-world pampering is not the issue of discussion here, and is really pretty irrelevant.

I asked you to defend two assertions you've apparently made:
-That marijuana use is deleteriously different from any other common recreational activity,
-That dependence upon a substance is immoral, or somehow degrading,

and you have replied with an ad hominem / strawman attack; an appeal to Africa. Nuke the argument from orbit!
Please try again, but on topic this time.

First world problems buddy, first world problems. Get over them. They mean nothing, and any thought or concern for them is just a waste.

I'll leave the Africa thing at this: You first. Leave this argument and go save the world then, buddy. Can you exempt yourself, lest I turn every post you make into an insult to the great starving people of Africa?
 

SLushhYYY

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When I smoke my introverted nature sky rockets. My intuitive nature becomes hard to deal with since my thoughts are running through my head at hyper speed. My paranoia also gets out of control, but its my current life goal to eliminate any sort of paranoia from my life so pursuing this task while high makes it much more worthwhile since it affects my sober personality as well.

I definitely don't need it though. I went all last year smoking weed every single day, all day, but I've cut it down to once a day before I sleep just because I like falling asleep high. Not that I need it to fall asleep, that is dependence which I'm really not that into. I do what I want.

It makes me feel good, and as long as I'm not damaging my reputation or anybody else's there is no problem with it. However, effects do differ from person to person, if you have an unstable mind I don't recommend doing drugs at all, but seeing as you are all INTP's I assume you are all pretty leveled.
 

redbaron

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The question stands in regards to this point. Do you only relieve stress by solving problems? Recreation has no part in your stress management?

No. I'm only stressed for the length of time it takes me to figure out if I'm either going to have to live with the problem because it can't be solved or how the problem can be solved. After that, there's no point stressing about something because it:

A. doesn't help you live with the problem
or
B. help you solve the problem

Humoring your definitions... so what makes you think all marijuana smokers rely on it to cope?

Never said that.

Who has the omniscience to tell anyone "why" they use a drug? Do you believe everyone's rationalizations? Do you believe all of your own? If society is going to tell me why I do something I may begin to believe it, or I may come up with my own reasons, but even so I would simply be coming up with them, as opposed to others who are simply borrowing them. It's particularly common for accusers such as yourself to declare knowledge of the big why questions when it suits your prejudices.
And again, what makes you think even a majority of marijuana smokers do nothing but smoke all day?

Never said that or made those claims either. I can't propose to know why some people might smoke in order to cope better. But I can propose that if people instead of dealing with the root cause of an issue, decide it's better to smoke marijuana, they're setting themselves up for the stress later.

If the cause of the stress is never resolved or removed, smoking marijuana isn't going to prevent it from recurring later.

First of all, caffeine dependence is real and starving children in Africa aren't going to have it because they can't afford or access caffeine!

It is real, but pathetic.

Secondly, your anecdotal report of caffeine use / disuse doesn't disqualify the empirical evidence which happens to corroborate my own experience with it. It has real effects and creates real dependency with certain schedules of use. I appreciate your overwhelming righteousness but my first-world pampering is not the issue of discussion here, and is really pretty irrelevant.

It's true I won't argue with the evidence, but it's still a self-inflicted problem and a stupid one at that.

I asked you to defend two assertions you've apparently made:
-That marijuana use is deleteriously different from any other common recreational activity

I never said recreational use was bad or should never be done, but for the sake of argument why don't you compare the positive and negative effects of smoking marijuana to walking.

I don't care enough to do it, as I'm already pretty certain as to what the results will indicate.

-That dependence upon a substance is immoral, or somehow degrading

It's none of these things. We have a dependence on water to live.

Morality. Not even going to go there. Smoking a plant is not immoral, however you spin it. Although I'm sure you'll find a way to concoct a scenario where smoking a plant WOULD be immoral, but I'll leave that to you.

What is degrading is dependence on something to cope with day-to-day issues. I don't know why most people smoke marijuana, but if they smoke it to relieve stress or to help them function in daily life, I think it's a poor choice of relief.

Since it's already mentioned, why not try walking? It's shown to have a variety of mental and physical health benefits.

and you have replied with an ad hominem / strawman attack; an appeal to Africa. Nuke the argument from orbit!
Please try again, but on topic this time.

If the argument is a question of a person's character and conduct in the first place, ad hominem can be relevant.

I also don't see where I've created a straw man either. I'm not misrepresenting your opinions, I'm giving mine.

Sharing my opinions as to how poor of a choice smoking as a coping mechanism is, has nothing to do with a misinterpretation and representation of your thoughts and feelings.

Pointing out there are people with much larger problems than your own to point out how small and petty your problem is does not constitute a fallacy.

I'm not telling you that because children are starving in Africa, you don't have some sort of minor dependency (this would be a fallacy) - I'm telling you that I think it's pathetic that you have concern about this dependency and seemingly allow it.

I'll leave the Africa thing at this: You first. Leave this argument and go save the world then, buddy. Can you exempt yourself, lest I turn every post you make into an insult to the great starving people of Africa?

Should I care if you do this? I don't.
 

Ninjamanda

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I don't think weed is a coping mechanism. I mean, yes it does help me feel less stressed but everyone has SOMETHING they do to help them cope with certain situations. You don't have much power over how your mind helps you deal with things.

Just because I smoke to relax doesn't take away the problems I am dealing with. I am fully aware of the things that stress me out and the things I need to take care of. But knowing myself, if I get too overwhelmed I am not going to get anything solved. If I smoke, it calms me down and helps me to think of ways to deal with things. Stress causes more health problems than weed does.

Also, if you lived in my neighbor, you wouldn't want to be walking around in it.
 

redbaron

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I don't think weed is a coping mechanism. I mean, yes it does help me feel less stressed but everyone has SOMETHING they do to help them cope with certain situations. You don't have much power over how your mind helps you deal with things.

I disagree completely with the bold part. I think people have a huge capability to influence the way in which things ultimately impact them. I believe that how much we stress has a lot to do with how we interpret things.

Just because I smoke to relax doesn't take away the problems I am dealing with. I am fully aware of the things that stress me out and the things I need to take care of. But knowing myself, if I get too overwhelmed I am not going to get anything solved. If I smoke, it calms me down and helps me to think of ways to deal with things. Stress causes more health problems than weed does.

You have a good attitude, but do you really want to be smoking weed regularly to deal with that stress in 20-25 years time? Over that period of time, regular usage will most likely impact your mental capacities quite severely.

I would be aiming to not be overwhelmed in the first place. Maybe that sounds impossible to you, but don't you think it would be of benefit if you were able to control your stress levels without smoking?

It's a naive thing of me to say not knowing your situation fully, but I could never accept that I needed an external substance to deal mentally with difficult issues. I enjoy adapting to stressful situations with a positive mindset and discovering a positive outcome.

Challenges need not be a negative thing. I'm not saying everything always turns out the way I wanted or that I feel good about everything that happens, but I can say that I never doubt who I am and my capabilities to deal with anything. You have the capability to deal with anything if you teach and control your own inner thoughts.

Also, if you lived in my neighbor, you wouldn't want to be walking around in it.

Fair enough, I can't argue with that.
 

Ninjamanda

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I know that I can stop if necessary, I have done it before. And believe me, I spent most of my life dealing with crappy situations and not using weed to help me out and I made it through just fine. But now I have chosen to make things slightly easier for myself. Think about it this way, you get a cold or you get sick. I have no doubt that most peoples immune systems will fight it off eventually but think of how much easier it is to get sleep if you take some nyquil to ease the symptoms so you can get over it.

I have struggled through so many things and I am happy to find something to appease the war that is life.

Also, your mind does have crazy ways of helping you cope with things. It might have repressed some traumatic incident you went though, but you wouldn't know because your mind took it away for you. Thats kind of what I meant when I say you don't always have control over what your brain does.
 

Moocow

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@redbaron
Never said that or made those claims either. I can't propose to know why some people might smoke in order to cope better. But I can propose that if people instead of dealing with the root cause of an issue, decide it's better to smoke marijuana, they're setting themselves up for the stress later.
I'm not even contesting that. What I'm contesting is the bolded attribution that those who smoke frequently or habitually are trying to cope at all. I think you would have to know the person extremely well to tell whether they are using it recreationally or coping.

If the cause of the stress is never resolved or removed, smoking marijuana isn't going to prevent it from recurring later.
Again, not arguing that.

I'm not telling you that because children are starving in Africa, you don't have some sort of minor dependency (this would be a fallacy) - I'm telling you that I think it's pathetic that you have concern about this dependency and seemingly allow it.
I'm a little confused by your wording here. Do I have concern about my dependency? No... I allow it because green tea has a myriad of short term and long term health benefits that require daily consumption. In my opinion, the health benefits (and enjoyment) I get and hope to get later on are worth the dependence on it which is a relatively minor setback that manifests rarely. Granted, if I could have my green tea without caffeine then I'd go it, but as far as I know the caffeine removal processes also removes most of the other good compounds. It is earmarked in the plant's chemistry but not bad enough to avoid altogether. I digress... why is this pathetic, again?

We've been arguing coping versus recreation, but I think those do not encompass the kind of use I'm trying to explain. Let's call it supplementation. Like with caffeine, some people use marijuana because it supplements a particular trait they want to maximize, and it isn't always numbness. That might appear habitual, or dependent, but the difference is that it's positive reinforcement from an external outcome, not negative reinforcement from themselves.

Not trying to perpetuate the loop of condescension here if you already know the exact meaning of those but in case you don't, I'm specifically referring to operant reinforcement types.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinforcement#Positive_and_negative_reinforcement
 
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