That annoying sense of superiority

[opheliaesque]

I judge people when they can't tell the difference between "your" and "you're" and I'm wondering why, in an INTP forum, there are so many of you who use it incorrectly. Somehow I got the notion that INTPs should be able to use correct grammar in my head, because of this presumed intelligence that we have. So being able to write at least pseudo-intelligently should be second nature to INTPs, right?
So then I'm questioning you being anything like an INTP. Then I question whether I'm just an asshat.

Anyone else get that nagging sense of self-righteousness whenever they come across something like this? I'm pegging this off as emotional immaturity, despite knowing that it's immature to feel this way, because INTP =/= superior. imeanwhaticonfusemyself.

EDIT: typo. lmao.

 

[Don't mind me]

Sorry, but internet law requires me to do this.

can't tell the different

 

[Trebuchet]

^ Now there is someone who knows Hartman's Law of Prescriptivist Retaliation, which states that any article or statement about correct grammar, punctuation, or spelling is bound to contain at least one eror.

I have a few theories for why people get it wrong on this forum:
1. They don't care.
2. They care, but don't have infinite time for editing, and something else mattered more.
3. English isn't their first language.
4. Editing is hard work, and it is impossible to do it perfectly.

Being a prescriptivist is fun, I admit. I used to spend a lot of time and energy on feeling superior. Enjoy.

 

[Moocow]

Not everyone on this forum is INTP.

 

[opheliaesque]

Whoops. Yeah that typo came to bite me in the ass.

Being willingly ignorant has always nagged me. It's more a case of not bothering to learn. Depends on context, really. English isn't my first language either and I'm still attempting to learn Japanese. Unless I'm on niconico, I try using the best grammar I can.

I'd rather INTPf not become rigged with posts that make me feel like it's someone speaking on skype.

EDIT: Searched up the different between prescriptivist and descriptivism; seems to me that it's more about changes in nuances in language rather than established grammatical rules which are taught to beginners. The their/there/they're gripe is often complained about.

@Moocow: the ones who say they are.

 

[pjoa09]

@opheliaesque My results for a bad personality test show that I am INTP. I still doubt it. Yet I can't say I am of any other personality type other than INTP. I am pretty sure if I didn't spend time doubting it I would've been confident that I am INTP.

It's not all INTP, more of a thought forum.

 

[Zionoxis]

I mean, some of us do not see it as that big of a deal. There opinions on the matter vary greatly.

 

[ObliviousGenius]

IMO, this is stupid. People will always make grammar mistakes and even though it's noticeable I don't feel the compulsion to correct someone every time they error. It's just too small or too petty of a complaint to waste my depleting energy on. The fact that there's a thread on it is annoying. It doesn't take an INTP every time to figure out someone is using incorrect grammar. Use "your" gift of insight for the things that others cannot understand on their own.

 

[Meer]

After a while, you can't edit your posts. That's why my typos exist.

People here are pretty good with English, to be honest. Much better than most of the internet.

But, that's not the point. Yes, I feel the same kind of gross self-righteousness and sometimes try to compensate or rationalize it or something.

 

[The Gopher]

Munkey made me fix my grammar in that regard... but I still have the english capacity of a 12 year old. In fact most of my emotions are also at a 12 year old's standard... oh wait that's because I am 12 years old...


On a serious side I don't have one.

 

[crippli]

Anyone else get that nagging sense of self-righteousness whenever they come across something like this?

I don't get my panties into a knot, and put on high heels just because I noticed there should have been an upper case letter instead. People are also trolling you, and do this on purpose.

Beware though, that you do not get to become emotionally compromised by mastery of language. And disperse justice on uneven ground. Meaning, not having considered all data. I find it uncomfortable that you use the word 'nagging sense' and you let this little catalyst start the emotional flow of self-righteousness.




I prefer to be enlightened, then continue in ignorance, say if I mistook choose with chose. There are many ways to teach.

 

[Dapper Dan]

I don't think good grammar is necessarily indicative of intelligence. Sure, it shows a certain level of education, but it's really just a matter of remembering all the rules and their exceptions.

 

[opheliaesque]

Grammar mistakes become annoying once it impede's on the legibility of the text.

Though I think there is some misinterpretation going on; whatever. I sitz on mai high chair above u all.

I don't think good grammar is necessarily indicative of intelligence. Sure, it shows a certain level of education, but it's really just a matter of remembering all the rules and their exceptions.

I never said that it was. Whilst not indicative of intelligence, I think a blatant misappropriation of grammar *whilst* trying to sound intelligent does. Grammar mistakes become annoying once it impede's on the legibility of the text. Typo's invariably happen.

I don't get my panties into a knot, and put on high heels just because I noticed there should have been an upper case letter instead. People are also trolling you, and do this on purpose.

Beware though, that you do not get to become emotionally compromised by mastery of language. And disperse justice on uneven ground. Meaning, not having considered all data. I find it uncomfortable that you use the word 'nagging sense' and you let this little catalyst start the emotional flow of self-righteousness.

I prefer to be enlightened, then continue in ignorance, say if I mistook choose with chose. There are many ways to teach.

Hmm... I often come to conclusions without taking in all the relevant data, leading to a result that has one single, stupid, blatant error which leaves me headdesking in frustration.

Ehhhh I've gone beyond the point when I get butthurt by the internet. Trolls be benign trolls.

 

[cheese]

It's irritating because there's this little jolt of discomfort and squeamishness inside every time you see a major/simple mistake, like you're/your and so on. Adymus described Ti/Fi as having 'yuck' reactions. I wouldn't say this is Ti, but a 'yuck reaction' is the right way to describe what happens when people like us see errors like that. There's a danger of falling into the superiority trap, yeah, and it's always worth noting that your own grammar won't ever be perfect (especially as there are different standards anyway). But I'd like to note it's not *just* a superiority complex. It actually feels really icky when you see a mistake like that. Perhaps there's a stronger need for harmony in some than others - in this case, harmony between what is known and what is seen. I get the same reaction when I read or hear something aesthetically displeasing (bad poetry, bad music), especially if it's coming from myself. It just feels ugly and it doesn't sit right. Maybe the brain doesn't like it because it has to work twice as hard? (Decoding meaning and doing so while registering all the little errors in construction that interfere with the smoothness of decoding.)

Generally though people with particular aesthetic preferences are really annoying, so maybe it's best to be rid of these little moments of discomfort if possible.

 

[Zionoxis]

Aside from my earlier (and failed) provocation, I try to have at least decent grammar. I am terrible for throwing in 70 dependent clauses at the end of my sentences as I forgot to elaborate on a point, but I am not entirely sure if that is incorrect or not. As for spelling, my rule is that if spellcheck finds it, I fix it. Otherwise...it's all fair game.

 

[Meer]

I don't think good grammar is necessarily indicative of intelligence.

Intelligence is bullshit. I would think that the proper use of a written language correlates with critical thinking skills, at least a little bit. How often do people around here use google to make sure they're (look at me go) spelling and/or using a word correctly? Likewise with rethinking things and going back and editing sentences, over and over and over.

People who just smack the keyboard a bunch of times and press send without proofreading or anything... To me, it seems like that may be caused by not so great critical thinking, uneducatedness or just a giant sense of entitlement, e.g., 'I dun hafta chang mu langgag fer neone else, dey can jus figur out wut im tryin 2 say!!11!'

But, maybe I'm full of bullshit. I definitely feel disgusted when people spell 'lose' with two o's.

 

[Mello]

Intelligence is bullshit. I would think that the proper use of a written language correlates with critical thinking skills, at least a little bit. How often do people around here use google to make sure they're (look at me go) spelling and/or using a word correctly? Likewise with rethinking things and going back and editing sentences, over and over and over.

People who just smack the keyboard a bunch of times and press send without proofreading or anything... To me, it seems like that may be caused by not so great critical thinking, uneducatedness or just a giant sense of entitlement, e.g., 'I dun hafta chang mu langgag fer neone else, dey can jus figur out wut im tryin 2 say!!11!'

But, maybe I'm full of bullshit. I definitely feel disgusted when people spell 'lose' with two o's.

Extraverts are much better speakers in real life.

I judge people when they can't tell the difference between "your" and "you're" and I'm wondering why, in an INTP forum, there are so many of you who use it incorrectly. Somehow I got the notion that INTPs should be able to use correct grammar in my head, because of this presumed intelligence that we have. So being able to write at least pseudo-intelligently should be second nature to INTPs, right?
So then I'm questioning you being anything like an INTP. Then I question whether I'm just an asshat.

Anyone else get that nagging sense of self-righteousness whenever they come across something like this? I'm pegging this off as emotional immaturity, despite knowing that it's immature to feel this way, because INTP =/= superior. imeanwhaticonfusemyself.

EDIT: typo. lmao.

your dum dont takl to me

 

[Fukyo]

I judge people when they can't tell the difference between "your" and "you're" and I'm wondering why, in an INTP forum, there are so many of you who use it incorrectly. Somehow I got the notion that INTPs should be able to use correct grammar in my head, because of this presumed intelligence that we have. So being able to write at least pseudo-intelligently should be second nature to INTPs, right?
So then I'm questioning you being anything like an INTP. Then I question whether I'm just an asshat.

Anyone else get that nagging sense of self-righteousness whenever they come across something like this? I'm pegging this off as emotional immaturity, despite knowing that it's immature to feel this way, because INTP =/= superior. imeanwhaticonfusemyself.

EDIT: typo. lmao.

 

[Minuend]

^

 

[Jah]

Stephen Fry, a man we can all respect, has something to say about this "grammar-nazi" stuff :

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7E-aoXLZGY"]Stephen Fry Kinetic Typography - Language - YouTube[/nomedia]

 

[crippli]

I definitely feel disgusted when people spell 'lose' with two o's.

Do you feel the same way with handicapped people, because they can not walk properly?

Perhaps the language is defect when two similar words offer such different meaning. And people who memorize and become emotionally attached to the difference between lose and loose have OCD issues?

 

[Dapper Dan]

It's irritating because there's this little jolt of discomfort and squeamishness inside every time you see a major/simple mistake, like you're/your and so on. Adymus described Ti/Fi as having 'yuck' reactions. I wouldn't say this is Ti, but a 'yuck reaction' is the right way to describe what happens when people like us see errors like that. There's a danger of falling into the superiority trap, yeah, and it's always worth noting that your own grammar won't ever be perfect (especially as there are different standards anyway). But I'd like to note it's not *just* a superiority complex. It actually feels really icky when you see a mistake like that. Perhaps there's a stronger need for harmony in some than others - in this case, harmony between what is known and what is seen. I get the same reaction when I read or hear something aesthetically displeasing (bad poetry, bad music), especially if it's coming from myself. It just feels ugly and it doesn't sit right. Maybe the brain doesn't like it because it has to work twice as hard? (Decoding meaning and doing so while registering all the little errors in construction that interfere with the smoothness of decoding.)

Generally though people with particular aesthetic preferences are really annoying, so maybe it's best to be rid of these little moments of discomfort if possible.

Yep. This is something I can relate to. It's like an itch that I just... want... to scratch...

From what I can tell, it seems to all come down to a good understanding of the systems at work. If I understand the system and it seems to work, then I'm likely to follow (and correct others on) the rules of that system. If the system has noteworthy flaws, then I tend to brainstorm solutions out loud (thanks a lot, Ne). Unfortunately, this can often come off as complaining or arguing to others, which I usually don't even realize until someone tells me to shut up, and I'm like .

Then again, sometimes I am just complaining. >_<

 

[ellamichaela]

I judge people when they can't tell the difference between "your" and "you're" and I'm wondering why, in an INTP forum, there are so many of you who use it incorrectly. Somehow I got the notion that INTPs should be able to use correct grammar in my head, because of this presumed intelligence that we have. So being able to write at least pseudo-intelligently should be second nature to INTPs, right?
So then I'm questioning you being anything like an INTP. Then I question whether I'm just an asshat.

Anyone else get that nagging sense of self-righteousness whenever they come across something like this? I'm pegging this off as emotional immaturity, despite knowing that it's immature to feel this way, because INTP =/= superior. imeanwhaticonfusemyself.

EDIT: typo. lmao.

Haha, priceless, also figured it's just me being immature, but I think we have the right to be a bit arrogant at times, I mean....we aare right... And sometimes it's nice to have everybody just live in harmony despite who's being right (well no, it's not, but let's pretend), but have a feeling that this special little trait of ours will never disappear, it's built in, like a bs and spelling error checker, might as well get to know people who can challenge us and who can use words and sentences like they ought to be used

 

[Meer]

Do you feel the same way with handicapped people, because they can not walk properly?

I would, if they could teach themselves to walk with a dictionary or a single google search. But sadly, I don't think that's a very good comparison.

 

[Zionoxis]

Stephen Fry, a man we can all respect, has something to say about this "grammar-nazi" stuff :

Stephen Fry Kinetic Typography - Language - YouTube

Agreed. Completely.

 

[Jah]

I would, if they could teach themselves to walk with a dictionary or a single google search. But sadly, I don't think that's a very good comparison.

What if they're only slightly physically challenged, like post-polio, where "all it takes" is a lot more dedication and concentration than what "normal" healthy people would need.


Fuck that shit.
It's all ego-affirming BS. ( an "I'm better at X than Group Y"-game. (meta: so is this, to some extent. also it's a "cut the BS"-game. ) )


Either language is viewed as a living thing, where the goal is simply to communicate ideas effectively,
or it is viewed as a dead system of rules and laws which you must memorize by rote, and regurgitate at will, in order to be able to convey an idea.

Precision is not always the name of the game, so unless you're writing in order to formulate a precise, often complicated, idea, it doesn't really matter.

(We could probably make a case for "the pedant" as a childish archetypal structure within the evolving/growing mind. )

 

[crippli]

I would, if they could teach themselves to walk with a dictionary or a single google search. But sadly, I don't think that's a very good comparison.

I think it's a good comparison. Some can learn to walk properly, by just raising their head a notch, and stop dragging their feet along. Clearly just laziness. But others really are handicapped, and will never be able to walk with grace and style.

Because, in your example, there wasn't a failure in communication. You understood perfectly. You picked out the error immediately. That person was able to walk from A to B. It was just how the person walked that was the problem? Clumsily? On rollerblades would also have broken the rules, but gotten from A to B just as most of the others. But that would have been awesome?

Yeah, what Jah said. It seems ego affirming.

I still don't understand the 'yack feeling'. A feeling of superiority should make you feel snug, relaxed, superior. That is not something I associate with being upset due to reading loose instead of lose.

 

[EditorOne]

? Life is too short to get emotional over a misspelled word. Mere bad spelling is not worth mentioning, especially in a forum, unless it is so bad you can't figure out what a person is saying. As in "an elephant eats shoots and leaves" or "an elephant eats, shoots and leaves". Personally, an armed elephant on a drive-by is not something I'd care to experience. Sometimes commas matter. Sometimes they don't. Irritation at others' casual mistakes seems mean spirited, does it not? And, dare one say, arrogant?

 

[Dapper Dan]

? Life is too short to get emotional over a misspelled word. Mere bad spelling is not worth mentioning, especially in a forum, unless it is so bad you can't figure out what a person is saying. As in "an elephant eats shoots and leaves" or "an elephant eats, shoots and leaves". Personally, an armed elephant on a drive-by is not something I'd care to experience. Sometimes commas matter. Sometimes they don't. Irritation at others' casual mistakes seems mean spirited, does it not? And, dare one say, arrogant?

Only tangentially related, but I couldn't help but notice you skipped the Oxford comma. That makes you an evil person.

Just thought you should know.

 

[EditorOne]

After 38 years of Associated Press style, it is amazing I even know what the Oxford comma is.

"The elephant eats, shoots, and leaves." There you go.

J

 

[Oedipus]

Bad grammar doesn't bother be on internet forums or in chats because it doesn't matter. I generally only point out mistakes if I'm trying to be an ass or if English isn't the person's first language and they make the same mistake regularly.

 

[Akuma]

I do notice some grammar/spelling mistakes but I can't get angry or irritated at it, it's the internet, everyone makes typos and my own grammar is quite terrible.

I could blame it partially on the fact that my teachers never really taught us properly, I remember one telling us to avoid using semi colons because they were too difficult to explain, but I've always been bad with English even before that.

No sense of superiority here.

 

[kantor1003]

"Annoying", yes, quite the appropriate title if you ask me. You should not have bothered with the four other words as that word, in isolation, would sufficiently have expressed my sentiment as far as this thread is concerned. The fact that you couldn't write a paragraph worth of text complaining about mistakes without having one yourself makes this even better, if one takes this humorously that is. However, I'm not doubting your sincerity and your posts have not been stupendous enough for me to find them funny, so I'm left with, yes, you guessed it right, simply "annoying".

For the years I've been here there has been, perhaps, two posters whom I've had great difficulty understanding due to poor writing. Similarly, there has only been one or two persons who's style of communication, or way of expressing themselves, I've greatly admired. Your concern about this forum turning into that of a Skype chat is hardly warranted (as far as I've seen, you're the only one in this thread that have used an acronym similar to what one might find in a Skype chat*). Seeing that you are a new member, or one that haven't been posting all that much, is this thread simply a way for you to try and assert yourself?

And go ahead, point out my grammar mistakes, or better; why don't you present some aesthetically pleasing content, both with regards to the ideas themselves, but also in form and expression as to set a good example and inspire the likes of me, who greatly admires a unique expression, in all areas (writing included), if presented to him(?).

(I'm sorry I have to come off as such a douche, and I'll probably regret that later, but- )
/The reason this bothers me so much is because I think most of us here put some effort into having as few mistakes as possible, and in presenting ourselves in a decent way. I therefore find it highly unwarranted, and just plain mean, when some fool comes along, snaps up a mistake here, and a little mistake there and goes on to rant about it, questioning their intelligence, while displaying very little on their own - especially if said poster hasn't contributed to the forum in any meaningful way./

*lmao

 

[Trebuchet]

Well, Language Log once posted a great visual aid for the Oxford comma.

I usually use the Oxford comma because that is how I was taught, but as long as the sentence is clear (say, by rearranging the order of items), I don't think it matters much.

 

[Minuend]

As long as there are people making ground-braking discoveries in science, it is hard to take people seriously when they feel superior because they know the difference between loose and lose...

 

[Execution Commentary]

Some believe that dreams serve as a release mechanism to flush out undesirable stimuli stemming from the waking hours. If that is the case, in my dreams I strangle everyone who has ever abused the English language to my heart's content. (Not that I feel superior. )

 

[EditorOne]

"ground-braking." Did you do that on purpose, Minuend? :-)

I don't know that there's a rule covering it, but my inclination on anything grammatical is that the easiest way to make the meaning clear is, by default, the right way to punctuate. That practical approach can get you in trouble. When I was a young reporter I once was so pissed off by a pompous, overbearing copy editor who insisted on a nonsensical interpretation regarding the use of a colon to introduce a list of survivors in obituaries "because it's that way in the AP Stylebook" that I dashed of a query to the authors of the stylebook. They were 1. astonished and 2. apologetic, because they realized several things: 1. There are idiots who will take an example of how things can be done and turn it into a rule; 2. They intended their stylebook to be a guide, not law for newspaper writers and 3. They made a poor choice in punctuation in that particular example in any event. So the officious copy editor was ruthlessly and with great smugness enforcing a mistake. What was the rule? The copy editor believed that a semicolon could be used in a list only if the list were introduced by a colon. (The AP, incidentally, removed the language that had produced an unintended result and sprinkled its massive stylebook with what amount to warnings against literal-mindedness in all subsequent editions. It very much looks like a project overseen by an INTP at this point. Here's their introduction on punctuation:

The basic guideline is to use common sense.
—Punctuation is to make clear the thought being expressed.
—If punctuation does not help make clear what is being said, it should
not be there.
“The Elements of Style” by E.B. White and William Strunk Jr. is a bible
of writers. It states:
“Clarity, clarity, clarity. When you become hopelessly mired in a sen-
tence, it is best to start fresh; do not try to fight your way through against terrible odds of syntax. Usually what is wrong is that the construction has become too involved at some point; the sentence needs to be broken apart and replaced by two or more shorter sentences.”
This applies to punctuation. If a sentence becomes cluttered with commas, semicolons and dashes, start over.)

But the real issue is one of our mantras: Don't sweat the small stuff when the small stuff doesn't matter.
And as small stuff, AP style does advocate for Oxford commas if the last item in a list is compound and therefore the clarity is needed. "They ordered Scotch, gin, and rum and coke."

 

[ObliviousGenius]

As long as there are people making ground-braking discoveries in science, it is hard to take people seriously when they feel superior because they know the difference between loose and lose...

That "ground-braking" had to be on purpose. Because it is just too delightfully ironic for you to make such a rookie mistake on a thread like this.

 

[kantor1003]

I'm pretty sure it's "IN a thread like this", not on.

 

[Roran]

The problem here is that English has an assload of seemingly arbitrary grammar and spelling rules, to the point where even native speakers (such as myself) do not even speak it right (see?) .

And yet, when I see a notice a grammar or spelling error, it's like I need to correct it or..... something will happen. Note the similarity to OCD. I'm thinking that that is because this is a type of OCD, but I'm not a psychologist, so, yeah...

 

[ObliviousGenius]

I'm pretty sure it's "IN a thread like this", not on.

How can you say that? For example, one would not hear "you can find your information IN the website."

 

[kantor1003]

How can you say that? For example, one would not hear "you can find your information IN the website."

My reasoning is that you referred to a mistake that was done within, or inside, something. If you say ON a thread, it indicates a proximity and a position above or outside something, and I view posts belonging to a thread as something contained within it, or "under" it as I'm sure most would agree. Whether that is valid reasoning, I wouldn't know, so I would appreciate if someone could sort this out.
I agree that one wouldn't say "you can find your information IN the website.", but I don't know why I wouldn't say that. If I were to attempt to reason my way as to why (without any knowledge about linguistics), I would have to use more time than what I have available at the moment.

 

[ObliviousGenius]

I guess I see your point. Truth is I don't know the difference between "in" or "on" now. There doesn't seem to be a clear rule to follow to know when to use which, because it's possible to use both words in the same context.

 

[EditorOne]

Chaucer wrote grammatically, but it's incomprehensible to most of us now. He spelled real gud too.
Stuff changes. "Rules of grammar" and the dictionary are much the same: They reflect the accepted usages and definitions of the moment.
Somewhere between insane adherence to precise rules of grammar that 90 percent of us never master anyway and insane random strewing of words and punctuation across a tortured volcanic landscape, there is communication. "In the thread," "on the thread," you bet, there's ways of looking at things from different perspectives right there in which two-letter word you use. Neither is automatically right nor automatically wrong. And we aren't even down to regional quirks yet.
Y'all are getting downright S-like with this dust-bunny level of detail. Keep it up and youse can turn in your INTP badges. You-uns be sorry then.

 

[Zadigdigs]

Maybe because some are as French as myself. Trying...

 

[the_s_rabbit]

Grammar mistakes bother me when they are abundant, especially when the content is critical in nature. If your not going to give you're statement a quick proofread, than you shouldnt be arguing. Its annoying and discredits you.

...I just realized that, on this forum, I am going to have to proofread every post 20 times before I hit the submit button. But I guess that is really not too much of a stretch for me, being that I am a perpetual self-analyst and critic.

 

[Luna]

I don't really care about other people's grammar/spelling. I don't even mind if it's horrible, just as long as I can read it. I'm more concerned about what they are saying than how their sentences look.

Another thing is, for some people, English might not be their first language. If they are at least able to communicate their idea effectively enough for others to understand it, then that alone is impressive to me. Especially considering that English has a lot of rules and can be a difficult language to learn.

 

[Jellybones]

Grammar mistakes bother me when they are abundant, especially when the content is critical in nature. If your not going to give you're statement a quick proofread, than you shouldnt be arguing. Its annoying and discredits you.

...I just realized that, on this forum, I am going to have to proofread every post 20 times before I hit the submit button. But I guess that is really not too much of a stretch for me, being that I am a perpetual self-analyst and critic.

ha

 

[ObliviousGenius]

LOL, S_rabbit. Maybe you should proofread about 30 times.

 

[kantor1003]

So funny! This thread will go one forever!