Suicide = educational ?

[JUN]

I've been thinking about this lately... I've always had a strange obsession with making short stories about people driving themselves insane. Which sometimes lead to suicide and sometimes didn't.

So I began thinking, why ? What is it in suicide that's so strangely appealing.
Well, it most certainly isn't because i want to ESCAPE, i mean, sure, I'd love to escape, but I'd rather escape inside this world, i like this place and i like being alive, so i thought about it for a few seconds.

Am I sad ? no.
Am I lonely ? no.
Am I lost ? not really, no...

I realized that I'm just curious about the feelings that cross your mind before you die, I am not curious to learn what it is like when you die. But the thought that you momentaneously realize that you are ALIVE and that you are going to DIE, it just fascinates me. Such an intense moment really makes me feel amused. Or curious.

So what are your thoughts on it, do you really think there would be advantages on being near-death ? Same as there are advantages in war, considering how after war there is a massive morale boost and cultural boost etc. Do you think it is the same ?

Also considering how humans and societies work the same while organisms, although in different scales.

 

[tom]

interesting question...
are you talking specifically about suicide or any near death point?

 

[JUN]

Hmmm, i guess any near death point would do really. But suicide seems the best for me because it's self-induced, which means that you are more aware of what is going on really. While when you are near-death sometimes you tend to get all SILLY RELIGIOUS and shit. When you try to commit suicide you have a stronger notion of what is going on.

 

[Robert]

Not sure if I agree with your ideas about the advantages of war. Morale boost? The only people who feel better about themselves because we're killing other people and bombing the shit out of their countries are turds. I don't think nationalism is in any way a positive thing anyway. That sort of crowd mentality is dangerous and works as a substitute for more creative forms of identity, which are attained through experience and maturing. And I think war tends to lead more to an increase in the amount of money put into sciences specifically relating to the production of weapons (which has occasionally led as a by-product to great scientific discoveries) rather than a 'cultural boost', whatever that means. There have been as fertile periods in literature, art, film, etc. during times of peace as war.

But that's not really the issue. I think many people are curious about death, and it certainly has produced great art (Tennyson's In Memoriam for example is perhaps the greatest poetic response to death, and is also one of the greatest poetic sequences ever written in my opinion). Ernest Becker in The Denial of Death argues that all culture is actually based on a complicated response to death. But if that's true it's only so in a very general and diffuse way, in the same way as Freud argues all actions are basically based on the exercise of our libido. Once you apply such a concept so generally it ceases to lose much of its meaning.

But you're asking if suicide specifically is a catalyst towards great art, creativity, profound thought? I would argue emphatically no. There have been great works of art that have considered suicide, Sylvia Plath's 'The Bell Jar' being an obvious example, but they are rare. Most of the writing on suicide is dirge from my experience.

That said what you're saying about near-death producing a mental change in us is perhaps true. Montaigne writes in 'That no man should be called happy till after his death',

[...] our fine philosophical speeches may be only an outward show, or we may not be so hard pressed by our misfortunes as not to be able to keep our features composed. But in this last scene between ourselves and death, there is no more pretence. We must use plain words, and display such goodness or purity as we have at the bottom of the pot.

"Not till then are true words drawn up from the depths of the heart; the mask is torn off and reality is exposed." Lucretius, III, 57

That is why our earlier acts of our lives must be proved on the touchstone of our last breath. There comes the supreme day, the day that is judge of all the rest. 'It is the day', as one of the ancients says, 'that must judge all my past years.' (Seneca) I leave the fruit of my studies for death to taste. We shall see then whether my speeches come from my mouth or my heart.​

--though this seems to be suggesting rather than in death we have no choice but to be honest, and we can no longer evade what we are or what we have done with our lives.

 

[JUN]

Well... First, about that morale boost being related to war... You should check all the countries that are the most evolved right now and see the wars they were in, of course, if you're in Africa and are in constant conflict you'll never get to the point where you can rebuild yourself. My point is... In a post-war situation a whole country comes together, in fact, the whole world comes together and allows themselves to cooporate, compare it with make up sex. You argue and then you have sex, and then you argue and then you have sex, it's a cycle. Destruction, creation, etc.

See what I mean ? And the thing about suicide... Yes, from what you showed there it really seems to be that way, suicide... a near-death experience allows one to gain an augmented self awareness, therefore a more complete life. Thank you for that insight, i wonder if anyone disagrees though.

 

[Artifice Orisit]

My point is... In a post-war situation a whole country comes together, in fact, the whole world comes together and allows themselves to cooporate, compare it with make up sex. You argue and then you have sex, and then you argue and then you have sex, it's a cycle. Destruction, creation, etc.

A very Freudian metaphor

 

[JUN]

A very Freudian metaphor

Why thank you, i was aiming for that. You know, make it Freudian so it's easier to understand and all ?

 

[Artifice Orisit]

Yeah, that's always bugged me.

It's like our brains are designed for innuendo.
What is the evolutionary advantage of having a dirty mind?

 

[JUN]

Yeah, that's always bugged me.

It's like our brains are designed for innuendo.
What is the evolutionary advantage of having a dirty mind?

Hmmmm, good point, well, procreate more, a dirtier mind stands for a greater desire ?

 

[ifelloverboard]

A sense of relief for people who have been in pain. Fear for those who weren't ready to die and maybe felt (if they believed in God) that they weren't ready or that they wanted to do more with their life.

As far as war goes, war is protection of the state. Whether that be resources, capital, or geography. As long as Nationalism/Sovereign States exist war as we know it between states will always exist.

Unfortunately I know more than a couple people who are NWO/Anti Globalization theorists who in the same sentence will argue war yet denounce globalization. There's arguments against globalization but they're not that there's going to be one prime minister and we're all going to be mindless drones slaving in fields.

I've always been willing to discuss globalization with rational and realistic individuals. Most of them I know are pro globalization.

 

[Robert]

Well, I think we have associative minds, which is advantageous.

Only we often associate towards sex as it's often on our minds, which obviously does have an advantage, as Ranondrugs said.

Though, re war, Ranondrugs, a metaphor isn't a proof. What's led you to believe that a country comes together more after a war? My sentiments are very anti-war, and I dislike glorification of war on any grounds, much in the same way I dislike glorification of suicide, but in order to argue against it logically I need to know exactly what is meant.

 

[Robert]

Oh, by the way, I understand the economic and social reasons war occurs, I just dislike the notion that wars should be fought in order to foster a good feeling in a country. It's a kind of gung-ho militant attitude I despise, and reminds me of the endless war in 1984 used to keep people from thinking about the state of their own society in their fervent hatred of other ones ...

 

[JUN]

Though, re war, Ranondrugs, a metaphor isn't a proof. What's led you to believe that a country comes together more after a war? My sentiments are very anti-war, and I dislike glorification of war on any grounds, much in the same way I dislike glorification of suicide, but in order to argue against it logically I need to know exactly what is meant.

Did I ever say i was pro-war ? I am not, I'm just saying what i think to be a regular behavior of organisms: be them humans, societies, countries, regions, the entire world. You are wounded ? You heal. You are injured ? You heal. Etc. Organisms have the ability to rebuild, you understand what I'm trying to say ?

And I'm also not defending suicide, I'm just curious about knowing if it is the same effect and i want to discuss it too.

 

[Robert]

Yeah, one does heal after being wounded. But that doesn't suggest the wound was beneficial, if you see what I mean.

 

[JUN]

The wound wasn't beneficial but it allows for a reset. Therefore allowing for a rebuild... Which was my point the whole time. Ah yes, which is in my opinion beneficial. I never particularly defended war or suicide attempts.

 

[Kidege]

I realized that I'm just curious about the feelings that cross your mind before you die, I am not curious to learn what it is like when you die. But the thought that you momentaneously realize that you are ALIVE and that you are going to DIE, it just fascinates me. Such an intense moment really makes me feel amused. Or curious.

Well, the thoughts that come to my mind when I realise I might die within the next few hours aren't amusing at all. It comes to sheer terror in some cases and not a lot of thinking is done.

It does induce a sort of high at times. You find out what are the things that matter to you. But I doubt it's completely worth it, because if you weren't depressed before you might end up depressed later.

But suicide seems the best for me because it's self-induced, which means that you are more aware of what is going on really. While when you are near-death sometimes you tend to get all SILLY RELIGIOUS and shit.

Suicide isn't a guarantee of clear thinking either. Some people do it out of emo-ness. Heck, some people regret it right then and get "religious and shit", try and call an ambulance, etc.

 

[Toad]

When I attempted suicide, the only thing I thought about was how disappointed my family was going to be. I was sad, but wasn't scared. The fact that I was drunk might have caused the process to be less frightening.

 

[JUN]

Yeah, one can't forget about emotions indeed... Most people would just freak out. Good point, I was imagining myself in the situation and couldn't see too many feelings appearing on me hahahah.

 

[Beat Mango]

When I attempted suicide

???!!

 

[GarmGarf]

As being the universal* solution for anything of being, suicide possesses interesting properties.

It's like the (mathematical) zero of choices - it's the first considerable solution to any situation.

I would imagine that many more would be fascinated about the concept if society didn't make it such a taboo subject.


(*= The exception being the cases where beings are physically unable to commit suicide.)

 

[Vrecknidj]

Ranondrugs: I suggest you find a way to interview a few thousand people who attempted suicide and get some raw data. Speculation is interesting, but it leads to more speculation. It sounds to me like you're looking for information. And, rather than attempting some sort of dangerous or unethical experiment, collecting data from those who've already been there might be a good way to start.

For kicks and grins, you might want to get all their types as well, to see if there are clear correlations between the types.

Dave

 

[RubberDucky451]

Hmmmm, good point, well, procreate more, a dirtier mind stands for a greater desire ?

Maybe homosexuals are natures answer to overpopulation.

Hmm, that just jumped into my head.

 

[kubikub]

When I attempted suicide, the only thing I thought about was how disappointed my family was going to be.

I never attempted, but when I was younger I used to contemplate suicide, and I think my final thoughts would also have been about my family... although more along the lines of, "Yeah, take THAT. NOW how do you feel about the way you treated me?!"
Fortunately I've evolved.

I realized that I'm just curious about the feelings that cross your mind before you die, I am not curious to learn what it is like when you die. But the thought that you momentaneously realize that you are ALIVE and that you are going to DIE, it just fascinates me. Such an intense moment really makes me feel amused. Or curious.

Doesn't quite answer your question, but a few months back a man in my town committed suicide. I live near the ocean, and so there are a lot of small cliffs near the shore, but of course since my area has an insane property value there are a lot of houses on the very tippy-toppy edges of said cliffs. One neighborhood in particular had a gazebo perched to overlook the harbor below, and he decided to off himself by speeding down the cul-de-sac in his car and plow through the gazebo to meet his doom at the bottom of the cliff... which I feel like I should add was not a very good decision on his part, as it wasn't high enough to kill him on impact and he was alive for a few minutes trapped under the car (though given the situation, would you call it trapped? hmmm).
Anyways, forgive the lengthy backstory, but some friends and I decided to go check out the gazebo he drove through a few hours after it happened before the area was properly roped off. Especially because I was driving the car, it actually ended up being a very emotionally stirring experience for me. Driving down the same street, seeing the same houses, seeing the gazebo speeding closer. Even getting out of the car and looking over the edge of the cliff, thinking that this exact view of the ocean, that exact spot on the ground, were his final sights and last experiences here. (shiver)
It was almost like stepping into his shoes for a moment. Very stilling.

 

[bananaphallus]

I've gone through periods of intense and unremitting suicidal ideation in the past, even getting so far as to write a note, but the thought that always pulled me back was imagining the few moments interposed between life and loss of consciousness, which I'm sure a great number of those who've killed themselves (those who've employed more protracted means of committing suicide) have experienced, when life leaves your body, your heart has stopped and you're lifeless, paralyzed, but you still see what's around you, and you may even still be cognizant of the fact that there's no going back now, this is it - not that it would matter, but I couldn't handle this.

Suicide obviously isn't educational, well it may be, but it's not like you'd be able to apply this knowledge. But I think near death experiences, not just failed suicides, may profoundly alter one's perception of life, and could potentially be educational in some way.

 

[JUN]

> Suicide obviously isn't educational, well it may be, but it's not like you'd be able to apply this knowledge. But I think near death experiences, not just failed suicides, may profoundly alter one's perception of life, and could potentially be educational in some way.

So it is educational, right ? Something that is profoundly life altering is indeed educational. It improves your life and your views on the world bla bla dee da, right ?

 

[Robert]

Ridiculous glorification of suicide. For most people it does not 'improve their life and their views on the world'. For people who are driven to suicide by genuine mental illness it is only an attempt to escape something that usually remains when they fail. For people who attempt it for attention-seeking reasons it might buy them a temporary increase in love and affection, but it rarely has any lasting beneficial effect. I don't know where you've got this idea of suicide from.

 

[bananaphallus]

> Suicide obviously isn't educational, well it may be, but it's not like you'd be able to apply this knowledge. But I think near death experiences, not just failed suicides, may profoundly alter one's perception of life, and could potentially be educational in some way.

So it is educational, right ? Something that is profoundly life altering is indeed educational. It improves your life and your views on the world bla bla dee da, right ?

I was just saying being 'close' could possibly be educational in some way, and I'm not sure attempting suicide is the de facto way to achieve this sort of heightened awareness (if this is what happens). But no, killing yourself - a successful suicide - is not educational, if anything it's the exact opposite of educational/wildly counter productive.

 

[Polaris]

I think my understanding is that Ranondrugs is merely observing the "Yin Yang" balance, or whatever one may call it, that seems to be the universal driving force. I do not think she is glorifying suicide or war, just presenting her observations of how everything seems to have a rebound effect.

Speculating about the issue is not the same as actually identifying with it, or it being a representative of one's own personal belief.

But: Theory is one side, practice is usually quite different. Speculations about the possible "educational" effects of suicide and war are perhaps topics that one should avoid unless directly affected.

 

[Toad]

I think only near death experiences can count as "educational". Attempted suicides are more depressing than anything..

 

[Beat Mango]

"The Edge - there is no honest way to explain it because the only ones who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over." - Hunter S Thompson

 

[Da Blob]

Suicide is the ultimate act of self-destruction. The idea that it can be educational is , more or less , preposterous - what mistake in the future can one avoid after committing suicide... One's enemies laugh and throw a party, the few others grieved and are burdened with remorse...

However, self-destruction in a milder form can be 'educational'. A lot of the more serious therapy sessions involving a counselor and a client is to see and destroy that part of self that is the source of a major obstacle that is preventing the client from growing and adapting to his or her life in reality. This is one reason some avoid therapy like the plague. They know it is going to involve destruction of some cherished beliefs or self-ish responses to the pain of their lives, an amputation of sorts...

 

[JUN]

I think my understanding is that Ranondrugs is merely observing the "Yin Yang" balance, or whatever one may call it, that seems to be the universal driving force. I do not think she is glorifying suicide or war, just presenting her observations of how everything seems to have a rebound effect.

Speculating about the issue is not the same as actually identifying with it, or it being a representative of one's own personal belief.

But: Theory is one side, practice is usually quite different. Speculations about the possible "educational" effects of suicide and war are perhaps topics that one should avoid unless directly affected.

This. Thank you for clearing out things for me... I really wasn't being able to make people understand my point of view in here. I'm just discussing and observing... Really.

And like the last poster said... Maybe not actual suicide but just self-destruction, suicide might be too strong of a word to used here, so sorry for all those who were affected by it.

Zero-sum, like a friend told me a yesterday, is what might be in order here. And all that Yin and Yang bullshit, yeah, which is basicly the same. We're talking about balance here.

 

[Robert]

'Whenever a thing changes and alters its nature, at that moment comes the death of what it was before.'

 

[JUN]

Yes, nice sentence. Totally sums up what I was trying to discuss here.