Subordination

[JoeJoe]

Maybe this should go in the INTP section but I think it's also a more general psychological question.

Here's my situation: I am a very intelligent person, but I am also quite lazy. In fact I think I only did normal homework at home (I sometimes still work in the bus or during breaks) three times during the last school year and I barely learn for class tests. As a result my average grade is B. (As far as I know, A's are more common in the USA than in Germany. A report with straight A's is extremely rare in Germany, the average is between B and C, but closer to C)

I'm pretty sure that if I would work, let's say 45 minutes per day, I could easily make it to an average around the middle between A and B. So far I haven't had any problem with having a lower average but I'm considering if I want to study psychology later, for which you need a very high average to be accepted at the university and next year I will already be collecting points for my final report.

Now the question is: Why am I so stupid, that I don't work harder?

I used to think that it was because I was afraid to be seen as a nerd/geek/striver (De: Streber). In recent time however I happened to notice that a long time ago, I already realized that it's near impossible to influence what others think about you.
In the last half year the following also happened: During the first quarter (third quarter of total year) I was working very well, especially in school (The end grade is either 50% exam results and 50% how well you work during classes or, if you don't write exams, 100% how well you work in classes (Sonstige Mitarbeit)) and had much better results than usual. I was quite happy and felt good about my results and I was motivated to keep up the good work. But what happened? My participation in all classes went back dramatically and now I have "normal" grades again.

Now my conclusion is the following: I'm not really afraid of what others think about me, I'm rather afraid of rising too high in the hierarchy. However, I don't know where this fear comes from and I would really like to know how to get rid of it.



I'm interested in your opinions and advices on this topic, thanks in advance.

JoeJoe

 

[walfin]

Darn. I had only exams when I was that age. So much better. No consistent work needed. (Never had to do homework and I skipped classes whenever I felt like it).

Unfortunately there's nothing to be done in your case except buckle down and put your nose to the grindstone (I'd translate that to German, if I knew how to ).

Don't be afraid to be seen as a nerd. If I'm not mistaken I think Germans place a lot of emphasis on Gleichheit. While there's nothing wrong with that it's bad when its misplaced. Think about it - when you get what you want done, you will do a hell lot more good for society than some Lumpenproletariat. If this is the problem, and not general laziness, then it's much easier. It's really not a bad thing to be a "Streber" (although I don't know what that connotes, societal views shouldn't matter so much).

Good luck!

(Study hard! ~nag of the day)

 

[JoeJoe]

umm...

Walfin, you don't seem to have read the post correctly. I'll just repeat what I've said before:

I'm not afraid of being seen as a nerd (but I used to think that was the cause), I'm somehow afraid of being too far up in the "hierarchy", as if I had no right to be so good, maybe that I'm not worth being successful. (?)

Don't be afraid to be seen as a nerd. If I'm not mistaken I think Germans place a lot of emphasis on Gleichheit.

I think it's pretty hard to know on what the country you live in puts a lot emphasis if you haven't lived in other countries (Though I have, but I was only 3-6 years old). But imo Germany puts less value on equality than other countries. E.g. the school system has relatively few comprehensive schools. The kids are seperated after 4th (in some states 6th) grade and go either to Hauptschule, Realschule or Gymnasium. Haupt- and Realschule are 5th to 10th grade and Gymnasium is 5th to 13th (in a few years 12th) grade. If your average of the final report of the Realschule is good enough you can go into the 11th grade of the Gymnasium and after 13th grade you have the qualification (Abitur) to go to university. For someone on the Hauptschule it's almost impossible to make an Abitur. The system itself isn't really that bad, but for some reason those on the Hauptschule are from socially lower classes and there are many migrates, while those on the Gymnasium are usually better off.

I hope this little essay won't lead us too far off topic. :s

The national anthem speaks for unity, right and freedom (Einigkeit, Recht und Freiheit).

 

[wadlez]

I think you should express beliefs and opinions which are congruent with the 'in' group you would like to remain a part of, aswell as deliberatly engaging in other behaviour which promotes group acceptance and group cohesion. If you actively try to analyse and act in a way which will grant you more acceptance with the group, you could counter balance the fact you get better grades than them.
If questioned on why you are performing so well, you could atribute it to something they can relate to, such as pressure from your parents.
This way you can have your cake and eat it too.

 

[Ermine]

Remember, nerds will rule the world. I mean this in all seriousness. For example, who's the richest guy in the world? A nerd known as Bill Gates. Just be whoever you want to be, and things will work out.

 

[walfin]

I think it's pretty hard to know on what the country you live in puts a lot emphasis if you haven't lived in other countries (Though I have, but I was only 3-6 years old).

Yeah. Well. I haven't

Just happened to remember an article on Germans valuing Gleichheit more than Freiheit a few years back in Newsweek.

Yep I realise I've misunderstood what you were trying to say.

You feel you need a "right" to make it, or "deserve" to be successful (perhaps I'm not getting this either)? Why?

Thanks anyway. I've just read up on the German education system on wikipedia. It seems...complicated. I suppose you're in the Gymnasium. Is that the reason why you feel you need to "deserve" it?

 

[eudemonia]

Now my conclusion is the following: I'm not really afraid of what others think about me, I'm rather afraid of rising too high in the hierarchy. However, I don't know where this fear comes from and I would really like to know how to get rid of it.

Clearly you've been doing some thinking on this topic and have already achieved some progress. What might help is to examine the fear more deeply and to understand what triggered the period of good work.

What do you feel may be the implications of rising too high in the hierarchy? What are you afraid of?

Go back to the first quarter of last year when you worked well. What was it that motivated you to work harder? Was there a particular incident, thought pattern or trigger?

 

[JoeJoe]

Well, I talked to wadlez about this topic on the chat, and we have come to the conclusion, that the source actually does come from how others perceive me.

Another thought just occurred to me: If I get good grades, I would rise in the "hierarchy". However, being in a higher position also means more responsibility and attention from others(!!), which maybe I feel uncomfortable with.

 

[brain enclosed in flesh]

Another thought just occurred to me: If I get good grades, I would rise in the "hierarchy". However, being in a higher position also means more responsibility and attention from others(!!), which maybe I feel uncomfortable with.

I think you hit on the truth a bit more in this last post of yours, Joey Joe Joe. I used to wonder why I didn't try harder in school and I believe 'not being one of those other overachievers' was one of my reasons- I went to a fairly prestigious school and I had friends who were psychotic about getting good grades and I 'knew' I could be one of them but there was something holding me back. I did well in the subjects that have always been easy for me, abysmal in the ones which would have required effort. But my parents and teachers didn't really seem to care. They just attributed it to me being a right brain sort of person who didn't have the capability to understand math.

But to put it simply, I don't think I tried all that much because performing well isn't all that much of a priority for me. I don't care all that much about being esteemed or having prestige. And I do think a big part of that also has to do with the attention and responsibility that comes along with it.

So I guess I'm just agreeing with you. I'm mildly hungover so no great kernels of wisdom are emerging from brain as I hoped they would when I started to write this.

 

[Ermine]

Which is worse, getting attention and increased responsibility, or not progressing as much as you want?

For me, attention and responsibility are the price I pay for progressing as much as I can in my given situation. With growth, there are always growing pains. And also, getting attention doesn't mean you need to reciprocate that attention.

EDIT: Ironic. You are capable of better grades than you have, and are holding back because you don't want more attention and responsibility. I, on the other hand, always got good grades in an effort to keep people from interfering with me and my academics, and the rest of my life for that matter. If I look like I'm doing well and don't have any problems, no one will bug me. So far that policy has been working well.

 

[Jordan~]

I don't work hard not because I'm too stupid, but because I'm too clever to value the resulting achievements.

 

[Elektra]

I think the problem is that you yet do not fully realize the consequence. it hasn't sunk in yet. Stop wasting your time wondering why...just do it, buy a kitchen timer and do those damn 45 minutes before every bed time. Have your parents set up a password on your PC if need be. You can analyze it after your Abitur. I still use a timer and I'm home with 2 kids now, I just get distracted by everything but 15 minutes here and there never seem that bad.

Besides the fear of getting more attention because of good grades is unfounded. Als ich zum Schulende endlich den Arsch hochgekriegt hab haben mich die Lehrer endlich in Ruhe gelassen weil die dachten dass ich es ja eh weiss . Hat auch keinen mehr interessiert wenn ich wieder mal zu spaet kam.

 

[eudemonia]

Going back to the first quarter again, did you reflect on what it was that triggered your initial spate of hard work? Also, what seemed to trigger the subsequent laziness in the second half?

den Arsch hochgekriegt

Elektra does this mean 'get your arse in gear' in German? If so, I must add that one to my extremely limited German vocab

Jordan - loved your post However can't you value the functionality of the achievements rather than the content or symbolism of them? Don't they just give you more choice, more freedom and more independence?

 

[JoeJoe]

Going back to the first quarter again, did you reflect on what it was that triggered your initial spate of hard work? Also, what seemed to trigger the subsequent laziness in the second half?

Up until now, I tried to remember when was the first time I did "too well", what were the consequences, what did I feel, that made me decide I'll have normal results. But I couldn't remember.

Now to the first quarter. During the end of 2008 and the very beginning of 2009 I was in a course from Landmark Education (but I had to break it off, because it was too far away, which was too exhausting), which was very inspiring and motivating, I also noticed that I'm much happier in general, than usual. What you learn in Landmark Education courses is hard to explain, but it's a lot about processing past experiences, which leads to whole new possibilities and empowers you to get what you want.

I think what is important, is that I didn't think: "OK, now I'm gonna work hard", it just happened, just like when I think: "I have to prepare this presentation, and I'm not gonna make it during 2 hours, the evening before" and I still don't do it. --> obviously the subconcious working.

Now to the second quarter: The only thing which I can think of, which could have triggered my laziness is that I found out my grades, which were a lot better than usual in some classes. Especially those classes which don't interest me that much were better, and I was also the laziest in those classes during the second quarter.

Writing this I guess it could also be, that I'm afraid of growing above myself. I am so used to having average grades that now I'm afraid of change.

 

[Beat Mango]

Sounds like you bought into the lie that there is something wrong with you if you don't care for achievements. If you want to go out and get good grades, go out and do it, you know what it requires. If not, don't. Don't worry about this "getting over the fear" stuff, that's just poppycock. Do or do not, there is no try.

 

[eudemonia]

Now to the first quarter. During the end of 2008 and the very beginning of 2009 I was in a course from Landmark Education (but I had to break it off, because it was too far away, which was too exhausting), which was very inspiring and motivating, I also noticed that I'm much happier in general, than usual. What you learn in Landmark Education courses is hard to explain, but it's a lot about processing past experiences, which leads to whole new possibilities and empowers you to get what you want.....

I think what is important, is that I didn't think: "OK, now I'm gonna work hard", it just happened, just like when I think: "I have to prepare this presentation, and I'm not gonna make it during 2 hours, the evening before" and I still don't do it. --> obviously the subconcious working.

Now to the second quarter: The only thing which I can think of, which could have triggered my laziness is that I found out my grades, which were a lot better than usual in some classes. Especially those classes which don't interest me that much were better, and I was also the laziest in those classes during the second quarter.

Writing this I guess it could also be, that I'm afraid of growing above myself. I am so used to having average grades that now I'm afraid of change.

Well, Joe Joe, you're getting warm

You know this is not just a simple case of laziness. At some point in your life, probably quite early on, you have learned that this works for you. In some way it generates psychological benefits or rewards for you. The trick is to identify when you first learned this and what 'benefits' you gained from it. Maybe you realised for example, that by underachieving you avoided attracting stressful expectations from other people or whatever it might be.

Now however it is no longer working for you and you have decided that you might like to change But you're right change tends to trigger fear because you fear that all of those benefits you gained will be lost and some imaginary negative consequences will come about instead.

The point is, that you are still young enough to change this pattern of learned behaviour and if you don't change it now it will continue to do damage (eg. at work, at university) and become harder and harder to change the older you get.

So first of all understand it - when did it first start. what were the benefits; why were they benefits at the time. What impact are they having on your life right now. Are they still benefits? How would you like to change?

Secondly - when you have raised it to awareness - face your fears - write them down and coolly and rationally confront them. How logical are they? What are the costs of being driven by these fears? would you like to overcome them? What are the benefits.

Thirdly - work out small step-by-step changes in behaviour. Then manage the consequences.

See if this works for you.

Good luck

 

[JoeJoe]

So first of all understand it - when did it first start. what were the benefits; why were they benefits at the time. What impact are they having on your life right now. Are they still benefits? How would you like to change?

Secondly - when you have raised it to awareness - face your fears - write them down and coolly and rationally confront them. How logical are they? What are the costs of being driven by these fears? would you like to overcome them? What are the benefits.

Thirdly - work out small step-by-step changes in behaviour. Then manage the consequences.

Except for the third step, this is exactly how Landmark Education works. Thanks a lot for reminding me, I had forgotten the details.

The difference with Landmark is, that in the end, you create an empowering possibility. You don't change but rather transform, because if you change something where you have a problem you just have another version of the problem.


This thread has helped me a lot in finding a solution. Thanks to everyone, I might post my results soon.

 

[Perseus]

All the Dogs ISTJ are slaving away, so if you are lazy they think you a Cat ISFP, and that is an insult.

 

[Felan]

For me I always got the best grades when I was challenged in the course and the worst grades when I wasn't. I think if I could do school over I would *try* asserting to my teachers that I needed to be challenged a bit more to engage better in the course.

If nothing else it will alter the teachers perception of you. Very possibly plant a seed in them that in borderline decisions will tip in your favor. Over the course of a year netting you an improved grade, even they don't do anything more to challenge you.

You can also change the rules of your education by working the student-teacher interaction. One of the thing MBTI does really well is provide a tool for communicating better with people of other types.

Many if not most teachers are idealists and frustrated, just opening that channel of communication with them will be a benefit. Feeling like they are making a difference for a student can be like the succor of life to them.

If the teacher is a Rational then likely they are challenging already or hungry for it. As long as you don't ask them a bunch of stupid questions or the same question over and over, they will likely be a great source of learning.

If they are the sort of teacher that is a real stickler for details and doing homework, then they are probably a Guardian and will likely feel like a gate keeper. These are the worst to deal with as you pretty much have to massage their ego of being the key to your grade. They will like explaining the same material again and again, mind-numbingly and heart-breakingly so. They typically don't like stepping outside of their box. Courses taught by Guardians will be strictly a nose to the grindstone, do the work, cross all the t's, dot all the i's, and occassionally stop in or stay after and ask them to repeat something they've said so they know you care and think they have the answer.

Artisans are probably similiar to Rationals but their classes are likely a lot of fun and rather dynamic. I don't think there are a lot of a Artisan teachers though, they seem to get into trouble too much.

 

[Rain]

Maybe this should go in the INTP section but I think it's also a more general psychological question.

Here's my situation: I am a very intelligent person, but I am also quite lazy. In fact I think I only did normal homework at home (I sometimes still work in the bus or during breaks) three times during the last school year and I barely learn for class tests. As a result my average grade is B. (As far as I know, A's are more common in the USA than in Germany. A report with straight A's is extremely rare in Germany, the average is between B and C, but closer to C)

I'm pretty sure that if I would work, let's say 45 minutes per day, I could easily make it to an average around the middle between A and B. So far I haven't had any problem with having a lower average but I'm considering if I want to study psychology later, for which you need a very high average to be accepted at the university and next year I will already be collecting points for my final report.

Now the question is: Why am I so stupid, that I don't work harder?

I used to think that it was because I was afraid to be seen as a nerd/geek/striver (De: Streber). In recent time however I happened to notice that a long time ago, I already realized that it's near impossible to influence what others think about you.
In the last half year the following also happened: During the first quarter (third quarter of total year) I was working very well, especially in school (The end grade is either 50% exam results and 50% how well you work during classes or, if you don't write exams, 100% how well you work in classes (Sonstige Mitarbeit)) and had much better results than usual. I was quite happy and felt good about my results and I was motivated to keep up the good work. But what happened? My participation in all classes went back dramatically and now I have "normal" grades again.

Now my conclusion is the following: I'm not really afraid of what others think about me, I'm rather afraid of rising too high in the hierarchy. However, I don't know where this fear comes from and I would really like to know how to get rid of it.



I'm interested in your opinions and advices on this topic, thanks in advance.

JoeJoe

This sounds a lot like an INTP friend of mine. I always aspire for the top of what I aim for, but when asked about what he wished to be at the very best by me, he said "vice president". "Why not President?" I asked, and he replied that he just wants to be second best, but not best. This is one of those things I will never be able to relate to, as I would think you should always aspire for the best in your area.

 

[Invoke Ninja's True Power]

you aren't stupid, just lazy....like me. My friends hated me for not doing the homework, never studying and getting that A on the test and making the honor roll (all B's or higher) most of the time for the last 2 years of high school. I am 26 now and realized too late that getting better grades could have gotten me through college for free or very cheap, it doesn't usually sink in until its too late. Lucky for me I got a second chance at college now, and I'm still lazy.

There is a world of difference between knowing and realization.
I've known this for 1/2 my life and it still hasn't fully sunk in.