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RFC: Fork the site

Architect

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I'm beginning to wonder if we at INTPf should fork the site as they did at INTPc (INTP Central - now INTP Complex). We are in a similar situation, the original owner is seemingly hard to contact, disinterested in the forum and so forth. As a consequence the forum suffers from running old versions of the software (remember the hacking?), features and so forth.
 

Ex-User (9086)

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Mods have the forum backup, you have the technical aptitude to set up a forum. You can get the software to back the site externally, crude but it works. In the end you could have an exact copy of this place, at least raw data-wise.

Set one up and call yourself a super admin Architect and send out invites.

Simple, isn't it?

The only problem would be with intpforum.com domain name being registered, but you could go with intpforum.org/net/whatever. There are a few other problems, but nothing that wouldn't be solved by a google search placement and a proper popularity contestation.

It would be likely possible to arrange a redirect (or at least redirect message) from here to there as well.
 

Kuu

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An intriguing possibility.

An alternative would be to contact Ragnar and see if he'd be willing to allow you/someone access to the backend, or the domain itself...
 

Architect

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Mods have the forum backup, you have the technical aptitude to set up a forum. You can get the software to back the site externally, crude but it works. In the end you could have an exact copy of this place, at least raw data-wise.

Set one up and call yourself a super admin Architect and send out invites.

Simple, isn't it?

The only problem would be with intpforum.com domain name being registered, but you could go with intpforum.org/net/whatever. There are a few other problems, but nothing that wouldn't be solved by a google search placement and a proper popularity contestation.

It would be likely possible to arrange a redirect (or at least redirect message) from here to there as well.

I'd recommend doing a clean fork. Forget the old archives, start new, don't inherit the problems. Otherwise the name doesn't matter, intpfucktwits.com is fine. The main issue is proper governance. I'd suggest a group of three who could both moderate and administer. That way it's not dependent on one individual.

Costs would be the other issue, I recall some paid BBS is being used here, I'd research better/cheaper alternatives.
 

Ex-User (9086)

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Fair enough, although that approach is pure popularity contest with unclear results. Looking forward to what you can come up with though, since independence from a single support source in the age when people tend to disappear without warning is at least an order of magnitude more stable as a starting point.
 

Happy

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Do it. Do it. Do it.

PLEEEAAAASEEEEEE!

Would we have to keep our usernames? I want a new one.

I wish I could help, but I'm useless at that stuff.

Imagine it - a forum populated by like 50% programmers charged with creating their own new and improved forum. It could be like the most technically advanced forum on the interwebs. Cray cray. The chat room could be like a video conference. And that Arcade button at the top might actually do something - I've always wondered what that does. Probably science.
 

Ex-User (9086)

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I've always wondered what that does. Probably science.
It used to schedule you an audience with his imperial majesty Putin. But it was disabled after unforgivable abuse.
 

Jennywocky

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I was kind of pissed at losing a lot of the great posts at INTPc when it went down (there was good stuff there in the 2005-2007 range), and i'd feel the same if we lost some substantial post history from this forum as well.

I don't really fault the rest. Although at the same time, you know how INTPs are -- come up with cool new ideas and a clean design, then get bored/frustrated halfway through implementation and the whole project just crashes and burns. We're talking a system that needs to be maintained, which is the boring part. But if you're trying to fix/rebuild the airplane while still flying on it simultaneously, you can't just quit in the middle.
 

Architect

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Fair enough, although that approach is pure popularity contest with unclear results.

Hm? Not sure what you mean, the supreme dictators wouldn't be chosen, it's a power grab as it always is. Seriously though it would have to be several individuals stepping up with interest in the venture. I would hope the existing mods would be for it, as they should at least continue as mods on the new site if not full administrators also.

Looking forward to what you can come up with though, since independence from a single support source in the age when people tend to disappear without warning is at least an order of magnitude more stable as a starting point.

Also to be clear I'm not necessarily proposing myself as supreme dictator. My future with the forum is likely either to discontinue, or continue in a potential new and better INTPf. I hardly want to check the forum anymore, its been blurring over with hardly anything new for some time, for me personally at least.

Which is the reason for the RFC.
 

Architect

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I was kind of pissed at losing a lot of the great posts at INTPc when it went down (there was good stuff there in the 2005-2007 range), and i'd feel the same if we lost some substantial post history from this forum as well.

Good feedback. Of course INTPCentral is still available for archival reasons, maybe if you can articulate what bothered you about the cut and run.

up with cool new ideas and a clean design, then get bored/frustrated halfway through implementation and the whole project just crashes and burns.

I don't have a issue with that, those circuits have been long burned out from years of actually having to produce something. I can do the research, select the best candidate and set it up. I rather enjoy that kind of thing actually, easier than what I normally do. And actually I've been doing nothing but Cloud for the past few years so am primed on this stuff anyhow.

We're talking a system that needs to be maintained, which is the boring part.

Exactly, which is why I suggest involving existing mods. They're already (seemingly) comfortable with maintenance.

But if you're trying to fix/rebuild the airplane while still flying on it simultaneously, you can't just quit in the middle.

You just described my work life for 20 years. I deal in software systems that last for years, so continually deal with this issue. In this case it's why I recommend a cut and run, and put the history in an easily accessible archive. It would freshen up things, and it's not mission critical so we can pasture the history, in my opinion at least.
 

Ex-User (9086)

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Hm? Not sure what you mean, the supreme dictators wouldn't be chosen, it's a power grab as it always is. Seriously though it would have to be several individuals stepping up with interest in the venture. I would hope the existing mods would be for it, as they should at least continue as mods on the new site if not full administrators also.
I couldn't care less about the power struggle for the executive positions.
You would do fine as a supreme dictator I guess, or as one of three, so long you would be active on a daily basis.
What I meant was for your fork to succeed people have to acknowledge and move to the other place, which requires some incentive and prep-work.

So this may result in users staying at both places, community split, old users being confused after return, new users being confused etc.

In the end it will probably mean a composite, every scenario predicted will occur within a percentage spread.
 

Jennywocky

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Good feedback. Of course INTPCentral is still available for archival reasons, maybe if you can articulate what bothered you about the cut and run.

Last I knew, it was around but not available.

I don't even know what you mean by your last sentence, I already explained my problem. I don't blame people for getting fed up with the lack of investment by the owner at the time, the site had been in sad shape technically for some time and was a pain to use due to all the bugs and spammy virusware.

Exactly, which is why I suggest involving existing mods. They're already (seemingly) comfortable with maintenance.

I meant system maintenance. Do the mods here actually do tech work? On sites I've modded on, usually the admins have some tech background and mods are hired to maintain the social/interactive end. Someone needs to be consistent with the tech end, which involves security issues, tech patches/upgrades, and fixing problems when they arise (whether that means interfacing with the host tech support or whatever).
 

Architect

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Last I knew, it was around but not available.

Looks like it finally died. I know it was still there and available as of a few months ago.

I don't even know what you mean by your last sentence, I already explained my problem. I don't blame people for getting fed up with the lack of investment by the owner at the time, the site had been in sad shape technically for some time and was a pain to use due to all the bugs and spammy virusware.

I just mean that, assuming the history could be preserved one way or another would you be fine with that.

I meant system maintenance. Do the mods here actually do tech work? On sites I've modded on, usually the admins have some tech background and mods are hired to maintain the social/interactive end. Someone needs to be consistent with the tech end, which involves security issues, tech patches/upgrades, and fixing problems when they arise (whether that means interfacing with the host tech support or whatever).

I'm good for that but don't want to be a mod.

One thing is we don't have a core group of participants as INTPc does. There are the regulars like you, me and others, but it seems this forum is more of a revolving door.
 

Ptah

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Just mean to share my perspective as the guy who essentially "forked" INTPcentral into a new forum a while back ... be prepared. It may not be obvious to some ... the amount of effort, time and money that can go into establishing and (key: )maintaining a forum like this.

Also, I was in a position of not having any access to the underlying data or domain of INTPc, back when. So it was a clean slate. At least in our case, that was generally desired or at least acceptable to most. Later, we obtained a sort of archive of the old place, although since there is no formal relationship between our team and the team of INTPc, we don't publicly host it, since it isn't "ours". Cue more politics and effort. Even so, we have our history preserved, without any cooperation of the original management (although that may change in days to come, etc, blah).

In our case, the fork worked because -- to put it diplomatically -- INTPc had been abandoned to all sorts of problems for too long. There was little if any tearing of the culture between two sites.

I write all this with the best of intentions as another guy in the INTPish forum space, to share my particular experience in a "forked" forum situation. In short: it is work, ongoing. Be sure its worth it to you! Have a clear idea of what you want to preserve, what you want to drop or change, etc. Have the money and time set aside. But first, of course, see if you can reconcile your desires with the extant madministration? (and, yes, we tried that before instituting our "fork")

Nevermind all that involved with SEO for a new domain name.
 

TBerg

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I wouldn't want some of my posts to vanish either. I kind of like the black look and feel as well. Not only is it different from all the other sites, but it is easy on the eyes at night too. Easier to sleep after reading.
 

Fukyo

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I'm beginning to wonder if we at INTPf should fork the site as they did at INTPc (INTP Central - now INTP Complex). We are in a similar situation, the original owner is seemingly hard to contact, disinterested in the forum and so forth. As a consequence the forum suffers from running old versions of the software (remember the hacking?), features and so forth.

While the forum software is old and vulnerable, I haven't noticed such big issues like what plagued INTPc, and I don't think it makes the site unusable.

There is always room for improvement, and I realize many would probably like to have more modern bells and whistles.

Jennywocky said:
Do the mods here actually do tech work? On sites I've modded on, usually the admins have some tech background and mods are hired to maintain the social/interactive end. Someone needs to be consistent with the tech end, which involves security issues, tech patches/upgrades, and fixing problems when they arise (whether that means interfacing with the host tech support or whatever).

We do both. Troubleshooting happens within the scope of the tools we have. Last time we had a hack, which was a few years ago, it was Kuu who got rid of the malicious code, actually, and I've made some fixes myself. Although Ragnar does get involved when things such as hacks happen. Well, at least he used to - we haven't had one in a while. Still, he has a service that monitors if the site is online or not.

Does anyone remember when people were discussing this in 2009 when he also had a period of being MIA?


Also, it might not be common knowledge, we refer ourselves to mods because it is shorter, but we're actually administrators even if we don't have the same permissions as the owner.


Happy said:
And that Arcade button at the top might actually do something - I've always wondered what that does. Probably science.

We used to have games there, but it got disabled because it was a vulnerability.
 

Yellow

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While the forum software is old and vulnerable, I haven't noticed such big issues like what plagued INTPc, and I don't think it makes the site unusable.
That's true, but another thing to consider is the age of the PHP version this is running on. I mean, they go out of support within a couple of years. Depending on our hosting company, at some point, they may drop finally support for this version / upgrade everything on the network to a version of PHP that will leave the site broken. Right?
 

Fukyo

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^ Considering Ragnar pays the bills so should be in touch with the host, I hope he wouldn't let something like that happen out of negligence...I suppose they would let him know if the forum would no longer be supported and that he'd do something about it, even if just letting the forum know so someone else could take over.
 

Cognisant

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I don't come here to play games.
Well I do but not those sorts of games.

Just don't fix what isn't broken, a forum is its people and the main reason I'd either move or stay is to be somewhere secure, I want to be in a forum that isn't going to just disappear without warning some day because someone stopped paying the bills.

I couldn't care less whether or not the archive continues to exist, we're not wikipedia, there's no index, the same crap gets brought up over and over again because people don't read the archives and even when they do and necro a pre-existing thread the conversation just starts anew.

Although if we had such an indexing system that would be neat.
 

Reluctantly

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I'm surprised INTPc doesn't sell the database they had. It's weird how it just vanishes and I guess the owner just sits on it?
 

Ptah

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It is both more complicated than that, and that simple.
 

Rook

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Just don't fix what isn't broken, a forum is its people and the main reason I'd either move or stay is to be somewhere secure, I want to be in a forum that isn't going to just disappear without warning some day because someone stopped paying the bills.

I quite agree with this statement...
That is all.
 

Architect

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It is both more complicated than that, and that simple.

lol ... yeah exactly. On the matter of forum posts ever disappearing, that's one of my many frustrations with the site. I asked a mod to check with Ragnar if he could do a SQL dump of all my posts. I keep getting requests for some kind of guide or coherent form. Anyhow, nothing. So for me, are my posts here, are they gone? Doesn't seem to matter, I can't get easy access to them.

Thanks for your perspective Ptah, appreciate you speaking up here about your experience.
 

Fukyo

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Architect, based on my impression of Ragnar I doubt he would grant that kind of request. If he hasn't abandoned his email account I'm assuming the silence means "no".

Unwillingness to cooperate in providing you with an easy way to copy your posts doesn't mean the posts are going to disappear. :confused: Afaik, the host is supposed to be making timely backups of the forum, and we never suffered any serious loss of posts in the past when forum was under attack.

If Ragnar can be bothered to pay the bills he's probably not going to flush the forum down the shitter.
 

Architect

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Fukyo - I wasn't saying the posts would disappear, I was simply observing that Ragnar appears not to care to pay much attention to the forum.
 

J-man

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The lack of emoticons on this forum isn't cute. The idea was funny for like a second. Almost.

Just saying.
 

Inquisitor

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lol ... yeah exactly. On the matter of forum posts ever disappearing, that's one of my many frustrations with the site. I asked a mod to check with Ragnar if he could do a SQL dump of all my posts. I keep getting requests for some kind of guide or coherent form. Anyhow, nothing. So for me, are my posts here, are they gone? Doesn't seem to matter, I can't get easy access to them.

Thanks for your perspective Ptah, appreciate you speaking up here about your experience.

On that subject, I was interested in seeing pictures of your office layout/desk, chair, monitor setup, etc. Whatever you feel like putting up. Interested because my current setup is giving me shoulder problems, and your idea about sitting on a Criterion stool seemed very ingenious. I've been testing it out on an old architect's/draftsman table with a normal stool. Seems to work well. Plus I've noticed flagging energy when I'm sitting down for too long in my normal chair. In the Ask Architect thread, those pictures no longer seem to be accessible. They're on the first page of the thread btw. Also, I was looking at that keyboard you recommended. Looks pretty neat. I emailed the company with some questions but so far haven't heard. Was wondering if I should potentially get the soft, click, or firm tactile touch and if that extra set of buttons is valuable for a software engineer to have?
 

Reluctantly

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[bimgx=250]http://www.webstaurantstore.com/images/products/main/53630/241966/melinda-flatware-stainless-steel-salad-fork-12-pack.jpg[/bimgx]

btw, how (why?) does forking mean going to another site?
 

Ex-User (9086)

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btw, how (why?) does forking mean going to another site?
Imagine multiple roads forming at a crossroads, or a river delta or a confluence.

Does look like a fork, does look like a trident, etc.
 

Reluctantly

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I see, makes more sense than someone taking a fork to the site like it's food, tearing it up, and flinging it somewhere like an unwanted brick of meatloaf. forks make me think of stabbing. :)
 
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