Requiem for XIII

[loveofreason]

ok... we know you need to get it off your chest....

this is the place to do it.

 

[Hawkeye]

All I can say is lol...

I thought there was something odd with the whole Alice profile.

 

[severus]

What...?

 

[Artifice Orisit]

This isn't going to be like the Requiem level of Hitman is it?
You know, when he seemingly comes back to life and shoots everyone.

...actually that would be pretty cool.

 

[Sapphire Harp]

Games, games, games...

I really have no idea whether it was all trollish-superiority games or unrivaled instability on XIII's part...

I just wish I could believe he is going to accept the ban and isn't going to try and infiltrate again... for whatever reason compels him.

*Clarifying Edit: LoR's post is in reference to the 'Bans' thread.
​

 

[Kuu]

what...?

 

[fullerene]

it's over in "crime and punishment." XIII and alice were the same person

 

[severus]

The one time I go to the Intriot section...!
I do wonder what hir intent was in the whole thing.

 

[Venture]

How did you uncover this deception among us?

Punishment was needed?

@Lor How did you know Alice was XIII?

I just asked that question can't you read?

 

[The Fury]

I began writing the post at 10:20 but I was distracted and so didn't actually send it until 10:29.

I'll delete it now.

 

[cheese]

Who the hell is Alice?

 

[Venture]

If you read his or er.... her posts as Alice, it dosn't appeal to be very INTPish.

Not the way I started on this forum.

 

[Metteyya]

I've been reading back through the XIII threads, on the recommendation of a member who I've been chatting with. I've had some limited experience in dealing with people with Multiple Personality Disorder (while I was working as an Ericksonian hypnotherapist), which is what the condition was called when I first encountered it.

It is a very interesting case indeed, and, if it would be agreeable to other members, I may comment on it more extensively at a later date

However, may I advise that language such as 'pretending' (as used in the 'ban' thread) is avoided? This individual may still be reading the forums, and such denial of the validity or honesty of his or her actions may cause unnecessary emotional trauma. In my non-professional opinion, the assumption of such friendly or quirky alter-identities as ''Alice...'' may be equivalent to a subconscious attempt to reconnect with a group of people who the individual felt close to, but had become estranged from. It's important to bear in mind, when dealing with such people, that they process meaning fundamentally differently, and that what seems dishonest to the outsider may be an entirely honest but other-than-conscious attempt to reach out.

While they may know, on some level, that they are not the details of the alter they assume (such as a 14 year old female called 'Alice'), they are not lying in any sense that you or I understand the word. The alternate set of behaviors and perceptions facilitated by such detailed alter-identities are as real to them as your personality is to you or mine is to me, and immediate rejection is often not understood-- emotionally-- in terms of the actions of other identities.

Consequently, I do advise extreme caution. It's probably unhealthy for this person to have continued access to forums, but, given that he/she does, being as gentle as rules permit might be the best way to deal with the problem.
S/He is undoubtedly capable of creating another account undetected, given the intelligence that his or her posts display, so it might be worthwhile considering that asking him or her to stay limited to one openly declared account could be more pragmatically effective than a blanket ban (which would likely lead to more extreme behavior spread across multiple identities, as it would put him or her in a position of opposition to the forum).

 

[loveofreason]

I've been reading back through the XIII threads, on the recommendation of a member who I've been chatting with. I've had some limited experience in dealing with people with MPD (while I was working as an Ericksonian hypnotherapist), which is what the condition was called when I first encountered it.

It is a very interesting case indeed, and, if it would be agreeable to other members, I may comment on it more extensively at a later date

However, may I advise that language such as 'pretending' (as used in the 'ban' thread) is avoided? This individual may still be reading the forums, and such denial of the validity or honesty of his or her actions may cause unnecessary emotional trauma. In my non-professional opinion, the assumption of such friendly or quirky alter-identities as ''Alice...'' may be equivalent to a subconscious attempt to reconnect with a group of people who the individual felt close to, but had become estranged from. It's important to bear in mind, when dealing with such people, that they process meaning fundamentally differently, and that what seems dishonest to the outsider may be an entirely honest but other-than-conscious attempt to reach out.

While they may know, on some level, that they are not the details of the alter they assume (such as a 14 year old female called 'Alice'), they are not lying in any sense that you or I understand the word. The alternate set of behaviors and perceptions facilitated by such detailed alter-identities are as real to them as your personality is to you or mine is to me, and immediate rejection is often not understood-- emotionally-- in terms of the actions of other identities.

Consequently, I do advise extreme caution. It's probably unhealthy for this person to have continued access to forums, but, given that he/she does, being as gentle as rules permit might be the best way to deal with the problem.
S/He is undoubtedly capable of creating another account undetected, given the intelligence that his or her posts display, so it might be worthwhile considering that asking him or her to stay limited one openly declared account could be more pragmatically effective than a blanket ban (which would likely lead to more extreme behavior spread across multiple identities, as it would put him or her in a position of opposition to the forum).

Metteyya, your knowledge is very welcome, and I have amended the ban announcement.

XIII himself made mention that we may find it advisable - for his own well-being if not the forum's - to ban him as he attempts to recover and integrate. He has also said that he wouldn't attempt to make a second account... yet has done so.

Most of us aren't in the position to know the validity of his claims to illness, and the forum had become very divided over the consequences of XIII's posting here. I'm not making any personal judgements of XIII, but have to put the well-being of the forum over the unknowable motivations (and state) of an 'individual' user.

If XIII does indeed suffer DID, then it would seem that not having access to the forum is also the best thing for his recovery.

That said, I can see the wisdom in your suggestions and it would be fascinating if you could relay more or your experience/view on DID (MPD).

How did you uncover this deception among us?

Punishment was needed?

We have our super-sleuth behind-the-scenes And Yes... though calling it punishment doesn't really to justice to the action... you weren't here for the turmoil caused by XIII's identities, and the forum is too 'sore' to go through that again just now.

Who the hell is Alice?

ALICE! WHO THE **** IS ALICE!? Is it terribly sad that I remember that song?

 

[Carnap]

Maybe in time he could create an account, tell the mods about it, and come back calmly.

 

[loveofreason]

That's a possibility.

 

[Metteyya]

Metteyya, your knowledge is very welcome, and I have amended the ban announcement.

XIII himself made mention that we may find it advisable - for his own well-being if not the forum's - to ban him as he attempts to recover and integrate. He has also said that he wouldn't attempt to make a second account... yet has done so.

Most of us aren't in the position to know the validity of his claims to illness, and the forum had become very divided over the consequences of XIII's posting here. I'm not making any personal judgements of XIII, but have to put the well-being of the forum over the unknowable motivations (and state) of an 'individual' user.

If XIII does indeed suffer DID, then it would seem that not having access to the forum is also the best thing for his recovery.

That said, I can see the wisdom in your suggestions and it would be fascinating if you could relay more or your experience/view on DID (MPD).

I find your position very reasonable, and I also respect that you edited the announcement upon the basis of a suggestion.

My particular focus when working with individuals with MPD was the alteration of their timeline, which is a term used in hypnotherapy to designate the role that the other-than-conscious relationship with time plays in an individual's behavior.
Most people have a linear timeline, in that they subconsciously perceive a generally linear sequence of events which constitute a single meta-narrative.

For all I know, XIII could be a highly intelligent psychologist playing ''games''. The resemblances between his/her writing and the cases I've witnessed, though, is striking.

This is a very illuminating passage, copied from a thread called ''The Only Truth I've Told'':

change that occurred in me. I can talk about the experience, but I have no means to talk of it. And then I affirmed all, time imploded, and I felt myself stretching forwards and backwards, as a sub-process of a greater process transecting spacetime. There ceased to be now or an I, only a development, one small thread felt in relation to a spiraling... rising... multitude. But sun-reason shone through me and visions of that which can be linguistically approximated by the word ''eternity'' melted away. And the Sun-God was sharp and cutting, dividing with his unmoderated and innocent reason. Like a child, he had no grasp for subtlety but also no grasp for the tyranny of relativity. Eagle, exaliting above form. The burst of white light which encomapasses all of its dispersions in coloure form. The prism unbroken. SPINNING. How could I have known such subtlety and cosmic revelation and then... be here? How could I be back with her again, thinking of her world, when I have percieved it and all as perfect and ecstatic?

This illustrates the atypical nature of the young man or woman's timeline (I'm careful to say 'man or woman' because s/he seems to have a range of gender-identities). It's likely that there are, so to speak, disparate threads of meaning and identity which move in some kind of general direction, but which do not intertwine to form a cohesive narrative timeline. Different sequences of events aren't effectively related to, or integrated into, the whole.

For example, one sub-identity that the individual lives through may have its own, perhaps limited, set of memories and emotions. It is likely to be related to the general, confused movement that constitutes the individual's central timeline, but it cannot relate to, or even access, many of the memories and emotions exclusive to other sub-identities.
In the most extreme cases, this leads to something akin to amnesia; one sub-identity will have memory blackouts, and will be unable to recall events experienced by another. XIII/Alice's case seems a little more moderate. I suspect that, at any one time, s/he can generally remember events experienced by other sub-identities, but cannot feel as though they belong to him/her. S/He has access to all memories, but many of them aren't integrated in such a way that they can have any meaning to any part of him/her other than the sub-identity which experienced them.

So, in essence, the timeline is fragmented. Events don't quite form a linear sequence, and causality may be perceived as running from future to past, as well as from past to future.

I am very interested by this whole situation, but I don't feel that it's appropriate for me to comment further unless invited to. There is much that I could say, but perhaps now is not the best time to say it.

 

[Grove]

How many times has XIII popped up? How many personas?

 

[Latro]

How many times has XIII popped up? How many personas?

At least 3. XIII, XIII2, and Alice are the ones that I know. I'd say that XIII and XIII2 (which were very different in and of themselves) probably had sub-personalities as well.

Note that XIII and XIII2 were posted under the same account. Alice was the only 2nd account that I know of.

Your comments are very interesting by the way, Metteyya.

 

[snowqueen]

Hi Metteya - I'm intrigued - I thought that DID/MPD was largely discredited outside of American psychotherapy with most people feeling that the association with false memory syndrome and hypnosis to be problematic. Ian Hacking's excellent Foucauldian analysis of MPD is probably the most useful text I have read in recent years. Are you familiar with it? When and where did you work as an Ericksonian hypnotherapist - I know quite a few in London.

 

[Metteyya]

Indeed, it is problematic. However, regardless of whether the diagnostic criteria used for, and assumptions made regarding, traditional MPD are accurate, there was definitely a correlation between individuals who were diagnosed with it while I was practicing and the kind of timeline distortions that I described (please bear in mind that they were very rough descriptions, and meant only for a lay audience). That doesn't neccessarily validate the therapeutic models which were being worked with, of course. In all honesty, despite my ability to recognise symptoms, I was unable to significantly help the few patients who I tried to treat, and thus cannot defend the use of hypnosis in integration.

With regards to your other questions, I would be interested in discussing this with you further privately. You give the impression that you've worked in some kind of therapeutic field-- is that assumption correct?

I look forward to your response, either via pm or in this thread.

 

[Concojones]

Wow, Metteyya, it's an honour to have someone knowledgable like you here.

I'm glad you mention the ban of XIII/Alice.

@all: Just read about the ban now, and I can only see this as immature behaviour on our part. What a mess we're creating!! I repeat that I don't understand the problem that 'everyone' seems to have with XIII. I thought we INTPs were open-minded, but we seem to behave more like a bunch of 12-year old SJ's. Banning someone, new stealth accounts, banning again, what a messy game we've started.

I know it's not up to me to decide, and that this is a bad place to do it, but how about restoring the guy's account, and asking him to pause posting for a week or so, until everyone has come back to their senses?

 

[Hawkeye]

I have nothing against XIII. Whether the symptoms are true or not I found the stuff he posted to be very interesting reguardless to whether it was purely baiting material.


My only concern is that if it is a mental illness this forum will no doubt cause more harm than good. To be perfectly honest though, if I were diagnosed with DID surely the doctors would investigate into my lifestyle and severly reduce interactions or temptations that could cause harm to me.


XIII will be a very difficult person to debate with also because everything said to him will be taken to heart.

 

[snowqueen]

Indeed, it is problematic. However, regardless of whether the diagnostic criteria used for, and assumptions made regarding, traditional MPD are accurate, there was definitely a correlation between individuals who were diagnosed with it while I was practicing and the kind of timeline distortions that I described (please bear in mind that they were very rough descriptions, and meant only for a lay audience). That doesn't neccessarily validate the therapeutic models which were being worked with, of course. In all honesty, despite my ability to recognise symptoms, I was unable to significantly help the few patients who I tried to treat, and thus cannot defend the use of hypnosis in integration.

So how long were you an Ericksonian hypnotherapist? Where did you train? What techniques were you trying out with these clients? I'm really intrigued.

With regards to your other questions, I would be interested in discussing this with you further privately. You give the impression that you've worked in some kind of therapeutic field-- is that assumption correct?

I look forward to your response, either via pm or in this thread.

Sorry I don't have time right now - off out for dinner. I'm not good with pms - don't like those small boxes. Yes I worked in mental health for 25 years. You can check out my previous posts and you should find out enough about me.

 

[fullerene]

wow... thanks for all those posts, metteyya. I'm also quite glad to have you around here; your wealth of knowledge and experience is like a gold mine.

conco: I think (if I understood what you said) that your version of events is mistaken. XIII was never banned--s/he just made two accounts. The forum rules are that duplicate accounts results in banning all of them, so the mods were just following those. The fact that lor said that XIII may be able to make a new one if s/he calms down, and also ammended her banning-announcement post to be more sensitive upon hearing metteyya's advice, are two good signs of maturity and open-mindedness.

 

[Chimera]

A very good friend of mine has DID.
If XIII really does have it too, then I sympathize completely. It's a sucky disorder to deal with.
But I haven't been paying much attention to the whole drama with XIII and the forum, so that's really the only thing I can say on the matter.
​

 

[Halcyon]

I believe he has conscious control, whereas the transition between personalities in someone with DID would be involuntary. If he does have a psychological problem, I believe it would have been created from personality experimentation, rather than having caused it. But of course, this is all speculation; none of us can provide certainty for this matter.

 

[Toad]

I told you guys XIII was a coconut head. LoL. I actually wouldn't mind him coming back. He seems harmless. If he did come back he would lose all credibility with me. It would be nice to have someone as crazy as I am around here though haha. I don't think he really has any pyschological problems. He's probably just a guy that's really bored with his life or isn't able to express himself in the real world so he has to come online to do it.

How did you guys find out Alice was XIII? If I had spent any time in the introit section and had seen Alice's intro I would have guessed that it was XIII...He was always into posting pictures that relate to what he says.

So you're not allowed to have 2 accounts?

 

[fullerene]

I talked to him for a while in irc (I'm quite convinced it was really him), and he seemed quite sane. He descrbed his personality-switching sort-of like a river, in that he couldn't change 'on demand' or with perfect accuracy or anything, but that he could sort of direct the flow and push the changes in general directions with some effort. I enjoyed the conversation, but understand that even though he seemed completely sane, and was quite nice, he could be a completely different person the next time we talked. To think about that was quite strange, so I can't even imagine what it would be like to people who knew him in real life.

Yeah, though. Forum rules are no dual accounts (and I'm sure that one was really his, because when his XIII name in irc got disconnected, it reconnected as Alice. He also didn't deny it or anything when I asked)... so I guess they banned both of them.

 

[Concojones]

Yeah I was surprised too about Alice = XIII, so I read Alice's intro post, and the similarity is undeniable, IMHO. To tell the truth, I had a good laugh while reading! Reminded me of my little cousin who'll cover his eyes with his hands and think he's invisible.

conco: I think (if I understood what you said) that your version of events is mistaken. XIII was never banned--s/he just made two accounts. The forum rules are that duplicate accounts results in banning all of them, so the mods were just following those. The fact that lor said that XIII may be able to make a new one if s/he calms down, and also ammended her banning-announcement post to be more sensitive upon hearing metteyya's advice, are two good signs of maturity and open-mindedness.

You're absolutely right, cryptonia. I was slightly losing it.

The thing is... there's nothing I hate more than seeing a lack of mutual understanding lead to a fight and predictable, avoidable misery. It's exactly that which has been happening here over the last few weeks. It's painful to see it unfold, and I feel an urge to intervene. My F, I guess...
I think highly of LoR and the other mods, and I acknowledge that according to the rules they have every right to ban, but doing so may also further escalate a conflict that should have been avoided in the first place. OK, enough ranting.

 

[Jesin]

I talked to XIII about the ban yesterday. It sounds like the whole duplicate account thing was a misunderstanding, and he didn't intend to break any rules. I've PMed lor about it.

 

[snowqueen]

I talked to XIII about the ban yesterday. It sounds like the whole duplicate account thing was a misunderstanding, and he didn't intend to break any rules. I've PMed lor about it.

XIII shouldn't be allowed back unless the admins are 100% sure that it isn't going to affect his mental health. Unless of course the entire DID/MPD confession was just another fiction in which case lots of people here might not really want to have someone who's manipulated their feelings around.

If there is a British op they should ask XIII for their real name and a contact person (who can be identified and contacted by telephone through a confirmable route) who can vouch that he is mentally stable enough to participate in a forum. Otherwise the worst case scenario is that something untoward happens and then it hits the media and this forum really will be ripped apart.

If the DID/MPD thing was a fiction (I believe that whole post was a response to Noddy's rant about authenticity and that XIII was demonstrating how easy it was to fake authenticity but I'm just an old cynic) and XIII wants to come back and post his fictions then I would suggest that it is confined to the Handmade and Blogging section where those who enjoy his writing and ideas can access them and yet it is clear to others that they are entering a conversation with someone whose identity may shift entirely at a whim.

 

[Jesin]

XIII shouldn't be allowed back unless the admins are 100% sure that it isn't going to affect his mental health.

It's not like he's under quarantine or anything. He's apparently still going to school. If he's stable enough to go to school, why wouldn't he be stable enough to participate in a forum?

And I see little reason to believe that he's faking it. While I admit that it is a possibility, I'd rather not be paranoid about it. That way lies madness, I think. He seems genuine.

 

[snowqueen]

It's not like he's under quarantine or anything. He's apparently still going to school. If he's stable enough to go to school, why wouldn't he be stable enough to participate in a forum?

And I see little reason to believe that he's faking it. While I admit that it is a possibility, I'd rather not be paranoid about it. That way lies madness, I think. He seems genuine.

What evidence do you have that he is still going to school? What evidence do you have that he has got a serious personality disorder? What evidence do you have about anything to do with XIII other than what he has told you?

This is not about being paranoid. It is about being sensible and taking care of another human being.

He either has an incredibly serious mental disorder or he doesn't. If he does then you as admins have a duty of care. If he doesn't, then he's been lying - no problem, he's sane, it's a game, but you need to be sure.

If it's a game - restrict the game to the area of the Forum which is clearly about games/fiction etc. How is that 'quarantine'? It's no different to moving Mor-Cog to the Arena out of the Insults thread.

 

[preilemus]

but that takes the fun out of it snowqueen, once you realize you're in a game, manipulation of it becomes much easier.

(i know im gonna get flamed for that)

 

[Concojones]

@Jesin: do you know what his reasons were for playing Alice? I ask because he'd said that he wouldn't be playing other characters anymore (is bad for him). Quite paradoxical.

 

[Kuu]

but that takes the fun out of it snowqueen, once you realize you're in a game, manipulation of it becomes much easier.

(i know im gonna get flamed for that)

You may enjoy it, but not everyone wants to play games. Specially not as unwilling victims. It's not a flame, just a fact.

 

[snowqueen]

but that takes the fun out of it snowqueen, once you realize you're in a game, manipulation of it becomes much easier.

(i know im gonna get flamed for that)

You're right of course! And contrary to appearances I found a lot of XIII's writings absolutely fascinating and brilliantly conceived. It was the lack of the person who was generating the personae that was disappointing - I wonder 'who' is negotiating with Jesin? And it was the manipulative element which was disturbing - playing most of the people on here as puppets - is that ok - really?

@Jesin: do you know what his reasons were for playing Alice? I ask because he'd said that he wouldn't be playing other characters anymore (is bad for him). Quite paradoxal.

Indeed - he himself said his doctors said he should be literal at all times. Either this is true or it isn't. If it's true then perhaps the doctors should be contacted? I'm sure Metteyya would agree how bad it would be for his mental health to have a place for his different personae to run rampant as the treatment for DID is all about 'reintegration'.

Now there's another issue - 'Alice' was a 14 year old girl. Now I'm not for a minute suggesting this is the case ... But ... an older man coming on to a forum and posing as a 14 year old girl? We have other members that age - female members (who I'm sure can look after themselves but for argument's sake ...)

 

[Concojones]

an older man coming on to a forum and posing as a 14 year old girl?

'Posing'? Really?

P.S. I just read that Metteyya was banned for being XIII. I must say I really had no idea. It looks like I misjudged XIII.

 

[preilemus]

snowqueen: http://intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=3320

Metteyya is actually XIII

 

[Tyria]

It's interesting how everyone reacted to Metteyya. I for one was fooled at first.

 

[Concojones]

Mettayya's posts are funny in hindsight: all those references to XIII! He was playing us. At the same time, vanity shone through (the guy couldn't resist applauding his own intelligence).

I knew something was off with Metteyya (a 60y old hyper-intellectual on a forum for 14y olds, c'mon!), but didn't think any further than that.

Anyway, I've enough said here. Time to address his actual message in the other thread.

 

[snowqueen]

snowqueen: http://intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=3320

Metteyya is actually XIII

You don't say - why what a shock! You mean he's not actually a Korean, a metaphysics professor, married 7 times, used to deal acid, an Ericksonian therapist and co-incidentally an 'expert' on DID/MPD??? But... but... that's so plausible.

But bloody typical that he revealed himself just I went off to have dinner missed the whole show!

 

[preilemus]

lol its not over, theres still the part where everyone has to say their opinion of him

 

[severus]

Nooooo.

euh
why

 

[Concojones]

You mean he's not actually a Korean, a metaphysics professor, married 7 times, used to deal acid, an Ericksonian therapist and co-incidentally an 'expert' on DID/MPD??? But... but... that's so plausible.

LOL

 

[Hawkeye]

Yes!!!

My suspicions turned out to be correct!

 

[EloquentBohemian]

You don't say - why what a shock! You mean he's not actually a Korean, a metaphysics professor, married 7 times, used to deal acid, an Ericksonian therapist and co-incidentally an 'expert' on DID/MPD??? But... but... that's so plausible.

But then again, if he was actually Mesopotamian, a pataphysics professor, married 8 times (...and divorced 9), used to deal Bufo alvarius toad sweat, a Scientology therapist (an Auditor) and co-incidentally an 'expert' on Phrenology...

...now that would be plausible.

 

[NoID10ts]

But then again, if he was actually Mesopotamian, a pataphysics professor, married 8 times (...and divorced 9), used to deal Bufo alvarius toad sweat, a Scientology therapist (an Auditor) and co-incidentally an 'expert' on Phrenology...

...now that would be plausible.

Holy shit!!!!

EB is XIII too! Ban him. Ban him right now!

 

[EloquentBohemian]

It would be difficult, if not impossible, to ban the Deus ex Machina, O Blue and Somewhat Foggy One...


...or I could be a result of Alien Space Bats.