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Reasons for Lying

Jordan~

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What's wrong with going up to him, telling him you find him irresistibly attractive in a way that is incredibly irrational but intriguingly human and then kissing him?
My eyes actually widened in something not unlike terror reading that, and I made a kind of squeaking sound.
 

Ogion

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No, it's the difference between you and 'us' (INTP). You seem to handle relationships like something to plan through, to be laid into specific rules/frames. I think we are a bit different there. We would probably never be as direct and open in that matter.

Ogion
 

murkrow

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Which is why she should be direct when dealing with an INTP, no?
 

Dissident

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Or maybe:

Which is why it would be asking too much from her to do if she is INTP
 

digitalmonkey

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Or maybe:

Which is why it would be asking too much from her to do if she is INTP
We have never discussed anything tangible about "feelings," with the exception of the apology - which was quite terrifying on my end. I think if I really, really like someone it is really difficult for me to do - especially if he is an introvert and not providing any bridge. He tried to "position" himself near me in the earlier stages - but was just vindictive in the end. What really bites is that document he said he "threw away" - I really wanted and I can't *make* him return it to me. He was pretty mean. Again, even if he wanted to distance himself from me - he was indifferent and could have made a decision or nicely said he "wasn't interested" when I gave him an out - not hanging up on me. It's like he did a 360... // I could have easily lived as "friends." But apparently not happening.

I think lying is more than type - I think it is a coping mechanism one learns based on their upbringing...

I have been emotionally raked.
 

murkrow

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lol a 360.

this story now seems to be something that seriously effected you, and not a small event as it seemed at first.
 

Kumori

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I lie sometimes, but only in situations that don't adversely affect others, an example would be "Hey, we're going to the movies tomorrow want to come?" "Sorry I have a cousins birthday". I think lying is justified as long as it's not in a debate, argument, or it hurts others.
 

Vrecknidj

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This reminds me of something. I'm going to go start a new thread in Psychological.

It's going to be called When Does Loyalty Trump Honesty?

Dave
 

Wisp

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Eh. I believe you are a mild INTP. Especially close on the T/F axis, fairly defined everywhere else.

Edit: Oh, and don't mind murkrow. He can be aggravating sometimes. He's our resident extravert. THat's why we keep him around...
 

digitalmonkey

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This reminds me of something. I'm going to go start a new thread in Psychological.

It's going to be called When Does Loyalty Trump Honesty?

Dave
Hi all. Thanks Dave for pursuing this further. I have to run out for a bit - but will check out that thread later this afternoon.
 

digitalmonkey

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Re: Reasons for Lying / Vindictive

lol a 360.

this story now seems to be something that seriously effected you, and not a small event as it seemed at first.
Hi guys - sorry to revive this thread, but I thought I would just give you an update on the lying INTP. I think he was purposively vengeful and I am a masochist.

Well he is moving. The last time I saw him I mentioned something to the effect of: Well, I guess this is the last time I will see you - which his response was: Well that is up to you: I'll be around. He's (around) for a few more weeks. So being an idiot - I said something along the lines of - well, OK maybe we could go for coffee or something - how should I reach you since you never get back with me? (trying to throw humor into it). He told me I should call him. The ONLY reason I pursued this is b/c I thought he was in his avoidant INTP phase....

Anyway I waited about a week and half - we talked briefly and he said he could meet on a certain day and to call him that morning. I called him - asked if he was busy - he said was in the middle of something. I felt put off (and frustrated), so I (possibly emotionally) asked if I was bothering him an he mumbled something to the effect of yes...told me to take care and hung up on me! Lest to say this PISSED me off! I gave this guy so many outs; for never having to see me or deal with me (maybe this was a test?), but he would always interject something to drag it on. And when I did see him he would throw in snide remarks or state mistruths.

So am I as masochist? Again, he started being curt with me after I acccused him of a having an odd personality trait - I apologized. But apparently it didn't seem to help. But what I don't understand is why he kind of dragged me along.... Was he hurt/angry or just decided he hated me and I was to suffer? I will probably never know - and that is what is also so frustrating.

Sorry for the long rant... This (how are INTPs vindictive) topic probably should be in another thread but it was just easier posting it here.
 

Ogion

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Hm, i of course can only speak to myself, but i think, that that is not 'normal' INTP-behaviour. Being INTP (especially the I is important) does mean to be a bit distant, but what you describe is not just shy and distant but it really is (purposefully as it seems) not nice behaviour. I think an INTP would not begin or acti first in building a relationship but if the other makes the first move(s), he would respond. What that guy does is 'extra-careless', meaning it seems purposefully cold.

And by the way, you seemto always feel like apologizing when possibly seeming emotional. But i think you shouldn't. Don't feel guilty when angry at him. He seems to give you all right to. I know i am no Feeling Type, but that doesn't mean emotions would never be adequate. You have all right to be angry at him and frustrated.

Ogion

In the end only you can decide on your behaviour and everything in this situation, but me, i would not really advocate for that guy.
 

Olba

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Yeah having sex with him will probably make him lie less, or at least about different things.
That's your solution?

Um, that's kinda disgusting. For one, you're clearly provocating contraception. For another, you're turning sex into a tool rather than what it should be. Biologically, it's nothing but reproduction. According to the media, it's a form of love.

You know, that's pretty evil of you.

And something just tells me that behind most lies is either insecurity or self-profit. Insecurity about the truth or its consequences.
 

digitalmonkey

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Hm, i of course can only speak to myself, but i think, that that is not 'normal' INTP-behaviour. Being INTP (especially the I is important) does mean to be a bit distant, but what you describe is not just shy and distant but it really is (purposefully as it seems) not nice behaviour. I think an INTP would not begin or acti first in building a relationship but if the other makes the first move(s), he would respond. What that guy does is 'extra-careless', meaning it seems purposefully cold.
Yes, his behavior seemed to used as a controlling mechanism and possibly a narcisstic tool - narcisstics can get off on *hurting* people. But strangely he is a Buddist so I would have thought he would have shown just a little bit more compassion. But my anger helps me wipe the slate clean - though at what cost?
And by the way, you seemto always feel like apologizing when possibly seeming emotional. But i think you shouldn't. Don't feel guilty when angry at him. He seems to give you all right to. I know i am no Feeling Type, but that doesn't mean emotions would never be adequate. You have all right to be angry at him and frustrated.
I know - I often take things on my shoulders and see it as my fault. But I am now starting to see in retrospect how I think this guy played with me.
In the end only you can decide on your behaviour and everything in this situation, but me, i would not really advocate for that guy.
Right, I guess it has hardened my shell a little and taught me not to be so vulnerable and trusting... b/c you can't really hurt unless you let someone in eh?
 

Jordan~

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That's your solution?

Um, that's kinda disgusting. For one, you're clearly provocating contraception. For another, you're turning sex into a tool rather than what it should be. Biologically, it's nothing but reproduction. According to the media, it's a form of love.

You know, that's pretty evil of you.

And something just tells me that behind most lies is either insecurity or self-profit. Insecurity about the truth or its consequences.
Actively "provocating" contraception... isn't that the same as not having sex with every person of the opposite gender you see, all the time? Think of all the poor sperm that die every time a man doesn't use them, or all the poor eggs that don't get a chance to be inseminated because of the evil of periods, and all the potential babies that don't get a chance to become disillusioned and angry and then die because of laws prohibiting sexual assault! And don't get me started on all the skin cells that fall off, uncared for, every day; nor the terrible damage we do ourselves by moving.

Calling having sex for fun or as a tool "evil" because it encourages contraception is a little bit extremely irrational. You're preventing an accident from ever happening, not deleting it when it does happen.

Aside from this, I think he was being light-hearted; and she can sleep with whoever the hell she likes, whenever she likes, wherever she likes; regardless of the babies that might not get to exist (not that they, ever, ever would have).
 

Olba

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Actively "provocating" contraception... isn't that the same as not having sex with every person of the opposite gender you see, all the time? Think of all the poor sperm that die every time a man doesn't use them, or all the poor eggs that don't get a chance to be inseminated because of the evil of periods, and all the potential babies that don't get a chance to become disillusioned and angry and then die because of laws prohibiting sexual assault! And don't get me started on all the skin cells that fall off, uncared for, every day; nor the terrible damage we do ourselves by moving.
Now I feel stupid. Advocating, not provocating.
Calling having sex for fun or as a tool "evil" because it encourages contraception is a little bit extremely irrational. You're preventing an accident from ever happening, not deleting it when it does happen.
And you're also turning majority of all teenagers into delusional beasts.

For one, I don't see any logical argument that would justify calling sex a form a love.

And due to all the hype, we have problems such as teenage pregnancy. If that isn't evil, then what is?
Aside from this, I think he was being light-hearted; and she can sleep with whoever the hell she likes, whenever she likes, wherever she likes; regardless of the babies that might not get to exist (not that they, ever, ever would have).[
Quite frankly, I'm not the type to jump at saving the world. However, I would rather have some of the current sex-related problems be gone.

For one, I'm sick of "homo" being an insult. I'm sick of being called a homo just because I don't grope girls. Heck, I'm sick of sexuality being a status symbol.

And you know, you can blame contraception on most of those issues. With contraception came the sex ed and with sex ed came the "sex is love"-message. And with that, teenagers got interested. And yay, we have ourselves a whole mountain of problems.
 

Ogion

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And due to all the hype, we have problems such as teenage pregnancy. If that isn't evil, then what is?
Immaturity? Stupidness? :confused:

Actually, i think it is up to everyone him/herself what he/she wants to do. I don't know, i suppose this is a (bigger) issue in America, here in Germany it is not that much (or i just don't know of it, that would be possible too).
I my school time i mostly shut myself off of the groups. (I was shut out anyway, but i was rather happy with that). So perhaps i didn't get the group dynamics, but when it comes to adolescents i am a bit misanthropic. People in puberty are just so narrowminded. (Recently that opinion/observation of mine gets more centered of humans as a whole, not just adolescents...:( )

Ogion
 

Jordan~

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Now I feel stupid. Advocating, not provocating.


And you're also turning majority of all teenagers into delusional beasts.

For one, I don't see any logical argument that would justify calling sex a form a love.

And due to all the hype, we have problems such as teenage pregnancy. If that isn't evil, then what is?


Quite frankly, I'm not the type to jump at saving the world. However, I would rather have some of the current sex-related problems be gone.

For one, I'm sick of "homo" being an insult. I'm sick of being called a homo just because I don't grope girls. Heck, I'm sick of sexuality being a status symbol.

And you know, you can blame contraception on most of those issues. With contraception came the sex ed and with sex ed came the "sex is love"-message. And with that, teenagers got interested. And yay, we have ourselves a whole mountain of problems.
Sex can be an expression of love, but doesn't need to be. This is my attitude. It can just be something fun that two people decide to do together.

One wonders how you can call teenage pregnancy and contraception evil in the same breath. Surely contraception is a solution to the [not exactly] evil [but more like socially difficult] problem of teenage pregnancy. Heck, tons of people in my year have sex, not one of them has gotten anyone pregnant, simply because they're smart enough to protect against it (and other things).

"Delusional beasts", I question? I suppose the ethics of using sex as a tool to achieve your own ends are (highly) questionable, but no more or less questionable than any other form of manipulation, really. It's never fair, and someone always loses out (unless it's a benevolent manipulator). That raises an interesting question! What if someone uses sex to achieve good? :p

Of course, teenagers were NEVER interested in sex before. There was no need for books telling them that masturbation was a mental illness that made them blind. >.<
Honestly? I think you'll find that teenagers being interested in sex is instinctive. It's not "HEY, SEX. THAT LOOKS LIKE MORE FUN THAN BOY SCOUTS! I'LL DO THAT INSTEAD!" - that's about as ridiculous as the suggestion that it's possible to "turn" someone gay.

Olga, I would say that the attitude needed towards sex(uality) is that it's not a big deal. This works in Scandinavia, where children are given sex education long before they hit puberty, and come to see it as being pretty normal. It takes away the mystery and the allure somewhat, leaving only "Oh, hey, sex." They have very low teenage pregnancy rates. Really, I think there are bigger problems. Teenage pregnancy is only a problem at all under a government that underprovides for its people. What's the purpose of government if not to ensure plenty? Otherwise it's just something that imposes rules without reason (other than maintaining order, and we managed that before we had governments well enough).

Oi, Ogion! I'm in puberty (or, well, leaving it, and past the interesting bit, but still doing all the shoulder-broadening face-lengthening things). Some teenagers are good - you can also replace "teenagers" with "people" for an equally valid axiom.

Group dynamics are hell, by the way.
 

Ogion

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Well, my statement was of course generalizing. And as always as i do such statements i regret half of the sentence ;) It was just that most of the teenager i observed were quite stupid, but then again, now in university (and generally in life) i observe the same thing with older people, so i should replace adolescents with people in general...
I supposed that group dynamics are hell, but since i didn't care much about the others and what they thought of me, they had not much to get to me. Sometimes they got physical (not very often, and if then something like spilling a drink on my clothes and saying "Oh, i'm soo sorry"), most of the times they just ignored me or insulted me verbally. What i found wuite interesting was, that obviously the 'leader' of the whole group needed oftenly some external 'enemy', to maintain his position. So most of the time when he harassed me (tried to), he needed to strengthen his position. It's like politicians who try to marginalize inne problems by conjuring an external enemy (much like the politic of the current US-administration).

Ogion
 

Jordan~

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We're probably more subtle. It never comes to physical violence, and only rarely to verbal abuse; but there's a very great deal of "bitching". It's more intrigue than outright conflict.
 

Olba

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Actually, i think it is up to everyone him/herself what he/she wants to do. I don't know, i suppose this is a (bigger) issue in America, here in Germany it is not that much (or i just don't know of it, that would be possible too).
Just so that you know, I'm not living in America. Actually, I'm living in Finland.
I my school time i mostly shut myself off of the groups. (I was shut out anyway, but i was rather happy with that). So perhaps i didn't get the group dynamics, but when it comes to adolescents i am a bit misanthropic. People in puberty are just so narrowminded. (Recently that opinion/observation of mine gets more centered of humans as a whole, not just adolescents...:( )
But that's exactly where the problem lies. Teenagers are prone to bragging and even lying. This makes for the known scenario where a group of people discuss how their weekend went. Of course, the topic turns out as how drunk they were and how many times they got laid. And of course, this puts pressure on some of them or those around them.

Sex can be an expression of love, but doesn't need to be. This is my attitude. It can just be something fun that two people decide to do together.
Tell me, what in sex itself is loving?

One wonders how you can call teenage pregnancy and contraception evil in the same breath. Surely contraception is a solution to the [not exactly] evil [but more like socially difficult] problem of teenage pregnancy. Heck, tons of people in my year have sex, not one of them has gotten anyone pregnant, simply because they're smart enough to protect against it (and other things).
They're both evil and there is a clear connection. Granted, proper contraception will and probably already has affected the number of teenage pregnancies. However, with contraception came sex ed. This much is obvious. After all, what's the point of contraception if no one can use it? And then comes the time of safe sex, followed by the sex ed claiming sex as a form of love. Which is obviously going to affect the numbers of teenagers having sex. Which in turn will also affect the amount of teenage pregnancies.
Of course, teenagers were NEVER interested in sex before. There was no need for books telling them that masturbation was a mental illness that made them blind. >.<
Honestly? I think you'll find that teenagers being interested in sex is instinctive. It's not "HEY, SEX. THAT LOOKS LIKE MORE FUN THAN BOY SCOUTS! I'LL DO THAT INSTEAD!" - that's about as ridiculous as the suggestion that it's possible to "turn" someone gay.
Of course, I never said that the interest wasn't there in the first place. All I said is that with contraception and therefore the concept of safe sex, along with Sex Ed, the whole thing has grown into a global problem.

After all, someone can make the misunderstanding that once they hear attend their first lesson of sex ed, they're already expected to be having sex the next day. Or rather, that sex ed is the borderline of sex being allowed/expected or not.

Excuse me? Just because my username happens to look similar to that specific name, you don't need to call me that. Specially since that is not my name. Why would it be?

I would say that the attitude needed towards sex(uality) is that it's not a big deal. This works in Scandinavia, where children are given sex education long before they hit puberty
Umm, I live in Finland and the first sex ed lesson I attended in school was when I was 15. And the last time I checked, puberty in males begins at around 10-12? How is that "long before"?

and come to see it as being pretty normal. It takes away the mystery and the allure somewhat, leaving only "Oh, hey, sex." They have very low teenage pregnancy rates. Really, I think there are bigger problems. Teenage pregnancy is only a problem at all under a government that underprovides for its people. What's the purpose of government if not to ensure plenty? Otherwise it's just something that imposes rules without reason (other than maintaining order, and we managed that before we had governments well enough).
Of course, I'm not saying that teenage pregnancies are a problem everywhere. For one, I've never heard of it being a problem here in Finland.

However, since we, as you say, "come to view it as only "oh, hey, sex", we will also give it a lot less meaning. Which makes for a scenario where those who don't show a huge interest in it are labeled as homos. Believe me, I've gone through it.

Also, as we give it a lot less meaning, we come to view it as a part of any working intimate relationship. Which turns out as teenagers having sex. Which turns out as teenage pregnancies, specially when coupled with alcohol. And believe me, sex and alcohol supposedly go well together (not that I had any experience) in the Finnish culture.

Well, my statement was of course generalizing. And as always as i do such statements i regret half of the sentence. It was just that most of the teenager i observed were quite stupid, but then again, now in university (and generally in life) i observe the same thing with older people, so i should replace adolescents with people in general...
So you're saying that in general, most people are stupid? Oh well, this is nothing new.
 

orion119net

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So we went from someone having trouble with a stupid INTP, to typing that person as an INTP, to the stupid INTP being really stupid, to sex.

>_>

<_<
 

Dissident

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Interesting discussion nevertheless. I therefore suggest a thread-split.
 

Ogion

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@Dissident: That is the advantage of original forum style, you know, like in 'post-trees'. With the nowadays standard forum style you can only have post after post.

Ah, sorry Olba, i suppose you said so in one of the introduction threads.
But that's exactly where the problem lies. Teenagers are prone to bragging and even lying. This makes for the known scenario where a group of people discuss how their weekend went. Of course, the topic turns out as how drunk they were and how many times they got laid. And of course, this puts pressure on some of them or those around them.
Hm, well, yes i know that too. Most of the times i listened in on a 'discussion' of my classmates, it was mostly about that topic.
Does it get better with adults? I suppose being drunk and gotten laid isn't such a new thing anymore for them, so probably that won't be the topic, but i suppose most of the topic are so superficial. Ok, i know, now i am arrogant (which is visible only in the internet because of some kind of anonymity ;)), and i know (from my super-ego side) that i have no right to be arrogant...
And it probably is rather a different perspective on what is important. I never could decide if these things were really important to them (my classmates) or if it was just a result of the 'atmosphere' of being 'adolescent'. Because i can't see any importance in all that typical-teenager-stuff for myself (Well, maybe that goes along with my still being virgin at 21 :p).

Ogion
 

Olba

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Ah, sorry Olba, i suppose you said so in one of the introduction threads.
Yes, I did. One of the users, might've been Lin, asked me about where I was from.
Hm, well, yes i know that too. Most of the times i listened in on a 'discussion' of my classmates, it was mostly about that topic.
So I'm not the only one?
Does it get better with adults? I suppose being drunk and gotten laid isn't such a new thing anymore for them, so probably that won't be the topic, but i suppose most of the topic are so superficial. Ok, i know, now i am arrogant (which is visible only in the internet because of some kind of anonymity ;)), and i know (from my super-ego side) that i have no right to be arrogant...
Ah, yes, good. I'm the kind of person who regularly gets stuff like "No-life!" or "Get a life!" thrown in my face. I wonder what would those individuals say if I actually told them that 95% of all the stuff people are willing and capable of talking about are meaningless and boring to me?

And also, I wonder what's up with all the superficiality nowadays? I mean, when you see someone you haven't seen in a long time, it's almost mandatory to say "You've grown!" or "You've lost some weight!" or something of the sort, depending on the person.

What is said is I'm bound to be overkilled by such phrases next summer when I graduate. I'm planning to invite some people I haven't seen in over two years, you see. Of course, taking into account the occasion, it's possible that majority will greet me with something like "Congratulations for graduating!", but I can also see them commenting on my height, my physique, my hair, etc.
And it probably is rather a different perspective on what is important. I never could decide if these things were really important to them (my classmates) or if it was just a result of the 'atmosphere' of being 'adolescent'. Because i can't see any importance in all that typical-teenager-stuff for myself (Well, maybe that goes along with my still being virgin at 21 :p).
Well, I'm seen as a weirdo by my "peers". To me, that much is very clear when they start asking questions like "Are you a narcissist?" or "Are you a homo?" or the classic "Are you insane?". For one, I guess I'm kinda known for having rather strange opinions. For one, as you can see, I'm here, labeling contraception as "evil" and yet I would readily accept Hitler as the greatest contributor to global peace. This particular example is one most people will never accept or understand.
 

Ogion

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So I'm not the only one?
Well, no.

Olba said:
Ah, yes, good. I'm the kind of person who regularly gets stuff like "No-life!" or "Get a life!" thrown in my face. I wonder what would those individuals say if I actually told them that 95% of all the stuff people are willing and capable of talking about are meaningless and boring to me?
They'd probably just see themselves confirmed. Fools. (Perhaps it is not that high a percentage with me, but i see it similarly like you)

Let us be thankful for the fools. But for them the rest of us could not succeed.
Mark Twain
;)

Olba said:
And also, I wonder what's up with all the superficiality nowadays? I mean, when you see someone you haven't seen in a long time, it's almost mandatory to say "You've grown!" or "You've lost some weight!" or something of the sort, depending on the person.

What is said is I'm bound to be overkilled by such phrases next summer when I graduate. I'm planning to invite some people I haven't seen in over two years, you see. Of course, taking into account the occasion, it's possible that majority will greet me with something like "Congratulations for graduating!", but I can also see them commenting on my height, my physique, my hair, etc.
You know, i had an easier time accepting, that it were no superficiality, but just that i have differing interest. But i think, it really is superficiality. I don't see how one could wish superficiality and stupidness, but so it seems to me. I mean, could this really be just a 'Type-thing', that INTPs just think on different tracks (thankfully)? Seems too easy an explanation. I just don'r know enough of other peoples inner wishes, interests...I just have such a hard time understanding how people can be so deliberately boring and stupid.
Well, i'd certainly like to err here, and get shown that people aren't like that...


Olba said:
Well, I'm seen as a weirdo by my "peers". To me, that much is very clear when they start asking questions like "Are you a narcissist?" or "Are you a homo?" or the classic "Are you insane?". For one, I guess I'm kinda known for having rather strange opinions. For one, as you can see, I'm here, labeling contraception as "evil" and yet I would readily accept Hitler as the greatest contributor to global peace. This particular example is one most people will never accept or understand.
Hm, i think these questions are just defence. They try to dismiss other interests and other lifestyles, unconventional people as bad, so they don't have to think about them.

To your last statement: Well, i kinda can guess how that gets misinterpreted ;) Especially since i come from Germany. Here the most are more sensitive to that topic (well, obviously not our average teenager. They probalby know the Nazis only from their WWII-computer-games. "They are the enemy right?"^^).

Ogion
 

Jordan~

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Sorry, Olba, I thought Olga was your username. Well, in Norway at least, and I think Sweden, sex ed is much earlier. Perhaps I should have said "liberal Scandinavia", to distinguish, or "Germanic Scandinavia", as opposed to "Finno-Ugric Scandinavia".

What's loving about sex? What's loving about anything at all? It's just an emotional value we assign to things. I think there might be some scarring there in your case (you seem almost to view sex as a bad thing), but whatever. Sex ed from an early age (when children obviously aren't intended to have, and would be grossed out by the concept of having, sex) means that you're ready for it and used to it by the time you are having it.
 

shiftwalker

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I am an INTP and I don't lie without a good reason. Having said that I have no way of proving this and as a result this post is useless.

"One word, Trust."
 

shiftwalker

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Hi Guys - thanks for the responses.

Yes, I am almost positive he is an INTP. He is very introverted (to the point of schziod-ish), intuitive, heavy thinker, absent-minded and looses/forgets things. One time I was late for a meeting with him and when I apologized he said, (in a low monotone voice) that is was okay. When I next asked if he still had time to meet he went off about how he didn't realize it was that day, and he was really busy and on and on in a higher pitched voice, and then when I said we could reschedule he agreed to meet me. He *knew* we were meeting that day b/c I sent a reminder that morning w/ an attachment that he referred to in his excuse...

Also, I feel like he only has so much time for me and then shoves me off - almost wanting to get rid of me when I am around....

Any suggestions on how I should deal with this guy - I kind of like him.

Hmm... Try to put yourself in his shoes figure out why he acts so dishonest. Remember this thou, people don't change very often. If he doesn't make a serious attempt to adjust with you, I would tell you to look elsewhere immediately. Consider that he might be lying to you.

"A friend you can't trust is no friend at all."
 

shiftwalker

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Immaturity? Stupidness? :confused:

Actually, i think it is up to everyone him/herself what he/she wants to do. I don't know, i suppose this is a (bigger) issue in America, here in Germany it is not that much (or i just don't know of it, that would be possible too).
I my school time i mostly shut myself off of the groups. (I was shut out anyway, but i was rather happy with that). So perhaps i didn't get the group dynamics, but when it comes to adolescents i am a bit misanthropic. People in puberty are just so narrowminded. (Recently that opinion/observation of mine gets more centered of humans as a whole, not just adolescents...:( )

Ogion
See the other side, you said that "every" adolescent is narrow minded. Having said that what does that make you?
 

Olba

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To your last statement: Well, i kinda can guess how that gets misinterpreted ;) Especially since i come from Germany. Here the most are more sensitive to that topic (well, obviously not our average teenager. They probalby know the Nazis only from their WWII-computer-games. "They are the enemy right?"^^).
But in this case, most people will disagree simply because it's at best doubtful that Hitler was thinking of committing to the world peace when he did his acts of cruelty. But ironic as it is, there haven't been any large wars after Hitler. Not to mention that the UN and EU have grown enormously after Hitler. Which shows quite well that people will need to actually witness the horrible acts instead of them being just possibilities before they start working to prevent them.

What's loving about sex? What's loving about anything at all? It's just an emotional value we assign to things. I think there might be some scarring there in your case (you seem almost to view sex as a bad thing), but whatever. Sex ed from an early age (when children obviously aren't intended to have, and would be grossed out by the concept of having, sex) means that you're ready for it and used to it by the time you are having it.
But my question is perfectly valid. After all, Sex Ed tells you to only have sex with someone you love. Heck, even psychology says the same.

And since the Sex Ed is early, those kids will obviously think that they're now ready for it. Which shows up in the number of teenage pregnancies and it advocates peer pressure indirectly. Ironic as it is, if there was no sex ed to begin with, the numbers would be larger.
 

Ogion

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See the other side, you said that "every" adolescent is narrow minded. Having said that what does that make you?
Well, it didn't said 'every', and i corrected my generalization already.

But in this case, most people will disagree simply because it's at best doubtful that Hitler was thinking of committing to the world peace when he did his acts of cruelty. But ironic as it is, there haven't been any large wars after Hitler. Not to mention that the UN and EU have grown enormously after Hitler. Which shows quite well that people will need to actually witness the horrible acts instead of them being just possibilities before they start working to prevent them.
[...]
Yeah, i know that argument. And it is probably true, that after it there was a big change in interstate affairs and such. But actually much of these changes are due to the USA-Soviet Union antagony. And even if it might bring out good things in the end as well, that doesn't make it right in the first place. But that is a bit offtopic here.

Would someone explain to me, just for the sake of discussion, what "Sex Ed" is?

Ogion
 

Olba

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Yeah, i know that argument. And it is probably true, that after it there was a big change in interstate affairs and such. But actually much of these changes are due to the USA-Soviet Union antagony. And even if it might bring out good things in the end as well, that doesn't make it right in the first place. But that is a bit offtopic here.
That's exactly the counter-argument I get. But how about you try to show me where I implied that anything that Hitler did was right? All I ever said is that the consequence was the safety we enjoy today.
Would someone explain to me, just for the sake of discussion, what "Sex Ed" is?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_Ed
 

Ogion

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I mean, i did write it in the first place, so perhaps i should read my posts more before posting ;)

Ogion
 

Jordan~

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But in this case, most people will disagree simply because it's at best doubtful that Hitler was thinking of committing to the world peace when he did his acts of cruelty. But ironic as it is, there haven't been any large wars after Hitler. Not to mention that the UN and EU have grown enormously after Hitler. Which shows quite well that people will need to actually witness the horrible acts instead of them being just possibilities before they start working to prevent them.
Hitler did a lot more bad than good, even ignoring the Nazi atrocities. Ending the post-World War I cultural revival, which looked like it was going to bring liberalism to the world, with greatly improved civil rights, etc. - after all, the aristocratic youth were all snorting cocaine and attending orgies, not exactly the stuffy conservativism associated with past eras. The war crippled many countries and resulted in the collapse of the British Empire, bringing instability to many regions and social problems for the UK.
It sounds a little selfish and perhaps illogical, but I really can't stand to see the collapse of a great nation, especially one that looks ready to quickly get much better. Instead, thanks to Hitler, we had to wait for the '60s to get a kind of watered-down, much-opposed movement of the same sort. He set the world back thirty years culturally, which is never a good thing. Also, the Cold War was a direct result of WW2, and the invention of the nuclear bomb under conditions that it was designed to be used. It was overall a pretty crappy war.

But my question is perfectly valid. After all, Sex Ed tells you to only have sex with someone you love. Heck, even psychology says the same.

And since the Sex Ed is early, those kids will obviously think that they're now ready for it. Which shows up in the number of teenage pregnancies and it advocates peer pressure indirectly. Ironic as it is, if there was no sex ed to begin with, the numbers would be larger.
Sex ed tells you to have sex with people you love? It sounds like Finnish sex ed just isn't very good.

The teenage pregnancy figures are, as I said, very low in Norway and Sweden; and a very healthy attitude exists towards sex there, with little peer pressure.
 

Olba

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Hitler did a lot more bad than good, even ignoring the Nazi atrocities. Ending the post-World War I cultural revival, which looked like it was going to bring liberalism to the world, with greatly improved civil rights, etc. - after all, the aristocratic youth were all snorting cocaine and attending orgies, not exactly the stuffy conservativism associated with past eras. The war crippled many countries and resulted in the collapse of the British Empire, bringing instability to many regions and social problems for the UK.
It sounds a little selfish and perhaps illogical, but I really can't stand to see the collapse of a great nation, especially one that looks ready to quickly get much better. Instead, thanks to Hitler, we had to wait for the '60s to get a kind of watered-down, much-opposed movement of the same sort. He set the world back thirty years culturally, which is never a good thing. Also, the Cold War was a direct result of WW2, and the invention of the nuclear bomb under conditions that it was designed to be used. It was overall a pretty crappy war.
And again, you're missing my point. I don't dare to deny all of the obvious negative side effects, but none of them change the fact that there have been no wars in Europe since Hitler. And most likely there will be no such wars due to the strict grip the EU has on Europe right now.

However, my point is the following: People are stupid. And therefore, unless they suffer, they will never learn. This has been proven countless times in the history. And the actual opposite, people learning by suffering, is exactly what happened after Hitler's reign.

Sex ed tells you to have sex with people you love? It sounds like Finnish sex ed just isn't very good.
Not strict so. But rather they spell indirectly that sex is something you do with someone you love, as though it was a form of love. And heck, even psychology agrees with that. If anything, I will agree that children and therefore family are something to be shared with someone you love, but that's as far as I'll go. With safe sex, sex became somethin else. It's not about reproductiong anymore, it's about pleasure. And that I find to be pathetic. It's sad to see the human, who is said to be the most intelligent of all animals, be a mere slave to its feelings and desires.

The teenage pregnancy figures are, as I said, very low in Norway and Sweden; and a very healthy attitude exists towards sex there, with little peer pressure.
Well, I cannot exactly say that the teenage pregnancy figures were high to begin with, just that it's a problem that is partially caused by sex ed and the failure ratio of "safe" sex. This is not really something you can disagree with.

As for peer pressure, I cannot really say anything from experience, but I know for sure that it exists. And just by existing, it's a problem enough.
 

Ogion

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all of the obvious negative side effects
Well, i do find it daring to call it side effects. It was defenitely not side effects. It was a side effect that afterwards there was the reaction, maybe learning effect, that you decribe. It is a bit like touching a hot stovetop. The touching in itself is not good, but you can learn from it. And i think Europe (differently in different parts, for sure) has learned some things.
But that there were no wars in Europe afterwards (at least no big wars) has many reasons. One was surely that the people had enough of war. Another was, that they mostly didn't have the strength anymore (individually and economically, and politically), another is the dualism of the Cold War and a few other.
But it did not drive out cruelty and atrocities, right? Think of soviet gulags, Stalinism, many opressions in the communist states. Think of the Balkan turmoils in the nineties (There was war, there was ethnical cleansings...). Think of Spain and their hold on to fascism till the mid-seventies (and they got out of it mainly by being so lucky to get a king who was willing to push Democracy).
So not everything is right now, not everyone learned. I agree with Jordan, that the Nazi-german-period did more bad than good. On many levels...

Ogion
 

Olba

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Well, i do find it daring to call it side effects. It was defenitely not side effects. It was a side effect that afterwards there was the reaction, maybe learning effect, that you decribe. It is a bit like touching a hot stovetop. The touching in itself is not good, but you can learn from it. And i think Europe (differently in different parts, for sure) has learned some things.
But that there were no wars in Europe afterwards (at least no big wars) has many reasons. One was surely that the people had enough of war. Another was, that they mostly didn't have the strength anymore (individually and economically, and politically), another is the dualism of the Cold War and a few other.
But it did not drive out cruelty and atrocities, right? Think of soviet gulags, Stalinism, many opressions in the communist states. Think of the Balkan turmoils in the nineties (There was war, there was ethnical cleansings...). Think of Spain and their hold on to fascism till the mid-seventies (and they got out of it mainly by being so lucky to get a king who was willing to push Democracy).
So not everything is right now, not everyone learned. I agree with Jordan, that the Nazi-german-period did more bad than good. On many levels...

Ogion
I never claimed that everyone did, nor did I imply such.

Of course there will always be those who are deliberately ignorant or those who think they're above everyone and everything else. That is something that will not change no matter how many Hitlers or Stalins the world goes through.

And never did I say that the goods outweighed the bads. However, peace and learning will always come with a price. And there is also a gap to the learning.

Also, with peace, comes time. We don't need to put time into making weapons of war anymore, therefore we can focus on more important things, such as health care, education or charity work. Surely you cannot disagree that all of the three have seen a whole lot of improvement due to the peace. Heck, it even allows for us to study abroad.

Eating is not about nutrition anymore, its about pleasure.
Disgusting animals! How dare they to enjoy food!
Eating is still about nutrition. The possible pleasure only comes as a side dish that doesn't actually dismiss it's original purpose. Therefore, your attempt fails.

I think I get it, Ill have sex once evey ten years for reproduction, eat something here and there just to survive (disgustingly healthy food, no dessert), and use the rest of my time in intelligent endeavors trying to be worthy of the human title.
Yeah, sounds like fun.
"Like fun", huh? Well, I'm not one to tell you how to life your life. And actually, if you wanted to be efficient, you wouldn't reproduce that much. It would cause problems if every adult in the world reproduced once every 10 years. That would mean everyone would have at least 4-6 kids. Which is a lot more than the global average today, which I believe is something around 2.x.
 

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It's not about reproductiong anymore, it's about pleasure. And that I find to be pathetic. It's sad to see the human, who is said to be the most intelligent of all animals, be a mere slave to its feelings and desires.
Eating is not about nutrition anymore, its about pleasure.
Disgusting animals! How dare they to enjoy food!

I think I get it, Ill have sex once evey ten years for reproduction, eat something here and there just to survive (disgustingly healthy food, no dessert), and use the rest of my time in intelligent endeavors trying to be worthy of the human title.
Yeah, sounds like fun.
 

Ogion

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Interesting, Olba answered Dissidents post two minutes before he posted it...Strange case of quantum-reversed-causality, i guess :p

@Olba
Well, ok. i think in principle we agree. Of course bad situations (can) bring good experiences. They should, it would lead to less real bad things. And if more people just observed the bad experiences of other people more, then perhaps they didn't need to repeat them. And yes, peace brings the possibility to learn other things.

Ogion
 

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Eating is still about nutrition. The possible pleasure only comes as a side dish that doesn't actually dismiss it's original purpose. Therefore, your attempt fails.
I dont think that explains all the people with eating disorders.
Pleasure is a natural incentive to do things that you are supposed to do, being a rational human being gives you the possibility of seeing past that, getting the pleasure of sex without an undesired pregnancy, getting the pleasure of eating without becoming a fatty, wether people are smart enough to actually do it or not is up to them. I dont see why pleasure cant be a a good enough reason to do something that doesnt harm anyone (in sex case, it even gives someone else pleasure, win-win situation:p). Drawing is not for any purpose other than giving me pleasure, is it pathetic to do it? Eating chocolate is not for any other purpose than giving me pleasure, is it pathetic to do it? Im not a fucking robot.
"Like fun", huh? Well, I'm not one to tell you how to life your life. And actually, if you wanted to be efficient, you wouldn't reproduce that much. It would cause problems if every adult in the world reproduced once every 10 years. That would mean everyone would have at least 4-6 kids. Which is a lot more than the global average today, which I believe is something around 2.x.
Rounding after puberty would be one at 20, one at 30, and one at 40; you are too old at 50, so 3 is not so crazy. Of course, Im not doing this, I was just pointing how dumb it is to expect for people to only have sex for procreation. Are you proposing ascetism?
 
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