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Reasons for Lying

digitalmonkey

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Is lying a typical INTP trait? I know an INTP that has lied to me several times regarding innocuous details - sometimes with almost a vindictive streak. These lies were apparently, (at least to me) false.

For example, at work he sent an email stating that he would have such and such done... (volunteering the information) on a certain date. When I went to collect it, he pretended like he threw it away, (when I know he didn't). He also knew it was important to me - is was really hurtful. I have caught him in several lies to me. Also, I think he used to have a crush on me... Do you think this would have any bearing on him avoiding me and lying to me. Seems immature.

Thanks in advance (an XNXP)
 

murkrow

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XNXP... really?

And yeah that's obviously just him being vindictive and not a representation of the type.

how are you sure he's INTP?
 

Dissident

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First of all, welcome.

I dont think lying is an INTP trait, or of any other type for that matter (I could be wrong, of course), but knowing the type may help you understand the reason why he lied (asuming he did). If he had a crush on you that is probably the source of the immature behavior, we are immature in those matters generally. You may want to double check wether that crush is really in past tense or not ;)
 

murkrow

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Yeah having sex with him will probably make him lie less, or at least about different things.
 

Dissident

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Dont you know what subtlety is? :p
 

Dissident

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Unless something goes wrong, then the fall hurts more :D

(I dont know what we are talking about anymore :p)
 

digitalmonkey

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Hi Guys - thanks for the responses.

Yes, I am almost positive he is an INTP. He is very introverted (to the point of schziod-ish), intuitive, heavy thinker, absent-minded and looses/forgets things. One time I was late for a meeting with him and when I apologized he said, (in a low monotone voice) that is was okay. When I next asked if he still had time to meet he went off about how he didn't realize it was that day, and he was really busy and on and on in a higher pitched voice, and then when I said we could reschedule he agreed to meet me. He *knew* we were meeting that day b/c I sent a reminder that morning w/ an attachment that he referred to in his excuse...

Also, I feel like he only has so much time for me and then shoves me off - almost wanting to get rid of me when I am around....

Any suggestions on how I should deal with this guy - I kind of like him.
 

Dissident

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I wish I could help make that lucky bastard even more lucky but I must declare myself incompetent.
 

digitalmonkey

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Hi Dissident - clearly you must not be entirely incompetent as you have that INTP perspective ;) Perhaps you could provide just a tiny bit of insight for me?
 

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Narcissism is an operating system over personality types. It is a psycho-social operating system designed to protect the Freudian ego and can cause people to lie about almost anything. I have found it is most likely in the Horse (ESFJ) as this type has the strongest Ego and is about the only type that believes instinctively in Freud, who is 80% fraud anyrate.

The ESFJ is as far removed from the INTP as possible and in this group lies our greatest adversaries. Lying, even murder, would be expected from such nasty animals.
 

Perseus

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Yeah having sex with him will probably make him lie less, or at least about different things.
Remarkable bit of insight. The latter is a Horse (ESFJ) or vice-versa. Probably the latter come to think of it.

The Camel variant is especially good at prolonged amounts of lying without guilt. In the latter the psycho-social overlay is Passive-Aggressive. As you know, it is the Camel that never forgets, and gets the hump (irritable).

If M is a Lion (ENTJ) they will know about Freud, whereas as an INFP/INTP have disdain for such an outlook.
 

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Also, I feel like he only has so much time for me and then shoves me off - almost wanting to get rid of me when I am around....

Any suggestions on how I should deal with this guy - I kind of like him.
Well...

I'll try to keep away from criticizing your attraction to a guy who treats you horribly.

Hm... no on second thought I can't stay away from that.

If you know that the guy has such immature ways of dealing with his emotions (and you do know this, for an absolute fact), how could you be at all interested in any form of involvement with him? The last thing you should be doing with a person like that is giving him more things to react to.
The fact that you work together makes it an even worse idea. While irrational attraction to a person can be safely pursued in a non-professional environment, romance in the work place should only be considered in a situation of fantastic compatibility. The reaction tendencies displayed by this guy mean that if anything were to go wrong in a romantic relationship, your work time would suffer from it. Do you really want your professional life to be ruined by the spiteful movements of the world's most ingenious personality type?

Assuming you will ignore my advice I suggest you deal with him in as straightforward a way as possible. If he is being a pest then confront him about it. If you are interested in him then tell him, but display your depth of emotional awareness by revealing the issues you have with your attraction to him (he's childish, conniving, selfish with his time). Make it very clear to him that you are only attracted to what you see in him and not the person he acts as when he does those things, that way you can safely escape should he not share the interest.

I could go on.
 

Jordan~

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Digitalmonkey, what's your type? INTP? It would be handy to know if we were going to give you advice about interacting with this person.
 

digitalmonkey

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Well...

If you know that the guy has such immature ways of dealing with his emotions (and you do know this, for an absolute fact), how could you be at all interested in any form of involvement with him? The last thing you should be doing with a person like that is giving him more things to react to.
Good question ;) I really wish I was not attracted to him, believe me. We both were a tad flirty earlier and then I kind of lashed out at him over some dumb personality trait he had, he gave me the "evil stare" when I tried to apologize about it and nothing has been the same since. I really was trying to be sincere, but he never gave me a chance to explain myself.
Assuming you will ignore my advice I suggest you deal with him in as straightforward a way as possible. If he is being a pest then confront him about it. If you are interested in him then tell him, but display your depth of emotional awareness by revealing the issues you have with your attraction to him (he's childish, conniving, selfish with his time). Make it very clear to him that you are only attracted to what you see in him and not the person he acts as when he does those things, that way you can safely escape should he not share the interest.

I could go on.
Based on recent behavior, I think this would be easier said than done....
 

digitalmonkey

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Digitalmonkey, what's your type? INTP? It would be handy to know if we were going to give you advice about interacting with this person.
Hi, I can be extraverted at times, but really I usually test INFP, but am fairly objective when it comes to talking about feelings...
 

murkrow

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Everything is easier said than done... except everything.

If you want to break through his barriers you need to take the offensive.

Here's something I have learned about NTs: We don't trust apology, especially from people who seem to rely on or overvalue emotion. It is very likely that he saw your apology as an attempt to return to the more comfortable level of relationship you once shared. If you're going to apologize to him then you have to fight through his natural aversion to apology.

In everything you do with him, be articulate. Leave nothing unsaid, make all your points clear.

Unfortunately, as a feeler you're going to need to do some serious self translation if you want to get through to him. The language of shared feelings and atmosphere and unspoken agreements that NFs live in doesn't communicate over to NTs. Tell him everything.


But to be absolutely honest (I guess that's a redundant statement. [wow, the posts I have made this thread have been so self indulging, I have done very little backpeddling])

THIS GUY SOUNDS LIKE A PRICK

and not in a good way.

Is it just sexual attraction or something? Because I have a feeling male INTPs make somewhat poor lovers. (yeah, not deleting that.)
 

EditorOne

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"Do you really want your professional life to be ruined by the spiteful movements of the world's most ingenious personality type?"


This is probably the most useful insight I've been granted so far in 2008. Thank you! :)
 

Dissident

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I have a feeling male INTPs make somewhat poor lovers. (yeah, not deleting that.)
Be sure not to put that in the "Things that I know" thread and we are ok, you can feel whatever you want.

digitalmonkey said:
when I tried to apologize about it and nothing has been the same since. I really was trying to be sincere
How do you "try" to be sincere? If you are trying that means you arent actually being sincere, maybe he perceived that. I think that honesty is the way to go, if what he did bothered you, pretending that it didnt wont help, making clear that you like him either way (which I suppose you do) may do the trick. Once you establish a relationship he will probably try not to do those things, we INTPs are pretty easy going with mundane stuff (we just dont care), but if its one of the strong INTP traits then you may very well take it or leave it as it is.
 

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Is it just sexual attraction or something? Because I have a feeling male INTPs make somewhat poor lovers. (yeah, not deleting that.)
Pfft, we're described as devoted and eager to please in love. A logical introvert (shy and not quick to follow their emotions) still has needs, and it's said that INTPs have a well-developed imagination. What I'm getting at is that we have plenty of time to go over the theory, if you know what I mean. :p

N.B. the above is pretty tongue-in-cheek

Edit: and now for something perhaps helpful.

Read this. It could help a little.
 

digitalmonkey

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Edit: and now for something perhaps helpful.

Read this. It could help a little.
I have seen that site. I sometimes fall into the ENTP camp as well. Apparently, the ESFP is suppose to be the ideal mate for the INTP according to this site. Do you all really agree with this?
 

digitalmonkey

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How do you "try" to be sincere? If you are trying that means you arent actually being sincere, maybe he perceived that..
I guess I should not have said "trying." I was actually very sincere, but couldn't get past that angry stare - I felt that if I *continued* I would felt some deeper wrath.
 

Jordan~

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I have seen that site. I sometimes fall into the ENTP camp as well. Apparently, the ESFP is suppose to be the ideal mate for the INTP according to this site. Do you all really agree with this?
I'd rather be with an INFP. I don't think I'd like living with an extravert.
 

Dissident

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Being with an E could be a little annoying but would act as some kind of catalyst to get things done and "move" a little more, that cant hurt. INFPs must be very kind and all which is nice but there would be comunication problems, I think ENTX would be very good.
 

Jordan~

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I just want someone I can be quiet with who'll know I'm not being cold or emotionless, who values doing things we enjoy together above being active and going out and doing stuff, and who won't drag me to parties. The fact that they're nice and all is a big bonus, too. To be honest, I don't want a catalyst, I like being reclusive. I want a male Amélie Poulain - though perhaps she's an S rather than an N?
 

murkrow

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Es don't spend all their time at parties, I haven't been to one in months.

Digital, if you're interested in the types that match the INTP well there are a few threads in the MBTI part of the forum. (Mostly me arguing that ENTJ is hands down the best match)

Is devoted and eager to please really an attractive way to describe a male lover?

Digital, what tests have you taken for your type? have you read all the descriptions? It would be nice to be able to pinpoint your type a little better.

Not to say that it needs to be decided for every letter, but I've yet to meet someone who is purely X on any count, I myself have a very balanced P/J axis but it's definitely more accurate to treat me as a J.
 

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Parties, social gatherings of any kind, spending time with more than 3 people... that kind of thing.

If I was a woman, I'd want my man to be eager to please and devoted. Heck, I want my man to be eager to please and devoted and I'm not a woman. :P
 

murkrow

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I know what you meant by parties, and you're still wrong.

Being eager to please and devoted aren't bad things, but I doubt they're the first things that come to mind when a woman is thinking about a sexual partner, or the most important.
 

Dissident

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Maybe not for a casual encounter, but probably in a long term relationship its value would increase.
 

murkrow

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Hm...

devoted is good.

I'm curious how the eagerness to please manifests, will an INTP adapt their sexual persona to match the desires of their lover?
 

Dissident

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It says that INTP´s love is "almost childish in its purity" (that nearly makes me blush), Im not so sure how in generally manifests tho, but that can give you an idea.
 

digitalmonkey

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Not to say that it needs to be decided for every letter, but I've yet to meet someone who is purely X on any count, I myself have a very balanced P/J axis but it's definitely more accurate to treat me as a J.
This might sound odd but I am either an ENTP or INFP.

I am definitely an NP - I can be extroverted and have lots of ideas, (am an idea generator) and hate messing with the details. I am a quick learner, love digital editing, and know a bit of code, but love psychology... I think maybe I am now getting more in touch with my feelings..., so maybe I lean towards the ENTP. However, I have to have my alone time and would rather "hide-out" than socialize often... An NP mixture.

btw - the INTP basically "cut me off" today and I think wants no further communication with me. He really hurt me and I guess I will have to work to get over it.... Lying verses being direct is immature in my book.
 

Dissident

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Maybe Murkrow is right and he IS a prick, possibly I am a prick too so I dont distinguish them right away :p

As for your type, yes, it does sound odd, ENTP and INFP are very different. Forget about the types, the descriptions and all for a minute and take at least 2 different test responding honestly, you cant get ENTP in one and INFP in the other.
 

digitalmonkey

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Maybe Murkrow is right and he IS a prick, possibly I am a prick too so I dont distinguish them right away :p
Yes, anger is helping me, as it is slowly replacing my *warm* feelings for him. I thought about telling him I thought his behavior was hurtful - but do you think it would even have an impact on him? I don't want to be emotionally manipulative, but want to know his behavior *stinks*. I realize you cannot speak for him - but maybe you could share some of your INTP male perspective...

As for your type, yes, it does sound odd, ENTP and INFP are very different. Forget about the types, the descriptions and all for a minute and take at least 2 different test responding honestly, you cant get ENTP in one and INFP in the other.
I toyed with the thought of being an ENFP, but I am not a very social person, (except when I am already in the group). When already in a social setting, I can be very charming, extroverted, but would rather really go deep in conversation with that one interesting person. I have many acquaintances, but am bad at calling/keeping up with friends and tend to have my core circle to rely on when I need them. But can go for months w/out speaking to my best friend... just pick up where we left off.

I do usually test as INFP, but some of the description just doesn't jive with me. I am also an enneagram 9 (fairly positive on this).

Thanks for all your feedback...
 

murkrow

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DO NOT TELL HIM THAT WHAT HE DID HURT YOU.

Hurting you was likely his intention.


Okay theres a few ways to tell if you're INFP or ENTP.

Do you approach ideas by relating them to yourself and trying to get the most utility from them?
When you discovered the MBTI were you very interested in the "optimum match" idea?
Have you read the optimum matches for ENTP and INFP?
Which did you find more attractive?
Are you good with words and argument?
Can you often see connections between things that others can't?
Do you often use metaphor to describe things?


answer each of these questions, in depth, and we'll have a much better idea of your type.

Both my INFP and INTP friends are very well liked among their social circles.
 

Dissident

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Yes, anger is helping me, as it is slowly replacing my *warm* feelings for him. I thought about telling him I thought his behavior was hurtful - but do you think it would even have an impact on him? I don't want to be emotionally manipulative, but want to know his behavior *stinks*. I realize you cannot speak for him - but maybe you could share some of your INTP male perspective...
It all depends on wether he does have a crush on you or not. If not, he probably wont care at all, but if he likes you it could have a pretty strong impact. He may not show it right away out of pride or shame but he will actually feel really bad (I would).

But like I said, Im not so good at this, dont take my word on it.
(Anyone else is kind enough to give me/her a hand here dammit!! :p )
(INTPs I mean)
 

digitalmonkey

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DO NOT TELL HIM THAT WHAT HE DID HURT YOU.

Hurting you was likely his intention.
Why, should I not tell him? If I tell him and he didn't care - it won't matter anyway. It I tell him and he does - then he should keep the info. in his mental memory for future relationship reference. Maybe I should tell him he was a prick :)

Okay theres a few ways to tell if you're INFP or ENTP.

Do you approach ideas by relating them to yourself and trying to get the most utility from them?
I relate to social perceptions of things not necessarily related to myself. I can get self-absorbed with self-analyzation, but typically my thought processes go like this: If I hear an idea, watch a documentary, hear about someone's problem - my *immediate* next thought is to understand the alternative perspective of an action/an event/idea. "I wonder if this X group of people did X b/c X happenend" OR "Well maybe she did this b/c X influence."
When you discovered the MBTI were you very interested in the "optimum match" idea?
Have you read the optimum matches for ENTP and INFP?
Which did you find more attractive?
Can you elaborate on the above, I have not read them.
Are you good with words and argument?
When I feel confident, I can twist arguments to always lie in my favor - usually most of my ability to do so is with people close to me. I do not always do this with people I am not comfortable with.
Can you often see connections between things that others can't?
Yes, to a fault to where people don't understand my leaps of connection. Also, I have been criticized for not doing things the easiest way and am able to find loopholes and am frequently described as "creative" though I don't feel necessarily so.
Do you often use metaphor to describe things?
I think sometimes. I like to compare/contrast theories. Instead of metaphors, I tend to speak more in the hypothetical - (I am all about the hypo...)
 

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My reasoning in not telling him he hurt you is mostly in the interest of not giving him any satisfaction. This discussion has built a pretty strong dislike towards him in me and I don't want him to consider anything he's done successful. But you make some strong points and I'll concede that the selfless altruist would tell him how he made them feel.

You sound much more ENTP than INFP. You could even be an INTP.

Loopholes, creativity, leaps of reason difficult for outsiders to grasp, compare/contrast, focus on cause and effect in stories... all these point to NT.

I've never met a T type who incorrectly typed themselves as F though, never, so you're likely close to the middle on the T/F axis.

what makes you sure you're a P?

E/I is a really tough one to judge in anything but extreme cases. Personally I had a hard time distinguishing my E/I and sometimes have doubts. I am helped by having friends who are exceptionally close to me and able to give worthwhile opinions on the subject, all pointing directly to E.

Do your plans/dreams include the success of a group you're involved in (or plan/dream to be involved in) or the success of yourself singularly?

When you need to come to a decision on a topic do you retreat to a controlled environment to weigh all of the data or do you share your problem with others?
 

digitalmonkey

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I've never met a T type who incorrectly typed themselves as F though, never, so you're likely close to the middle on the T/F axis.
I am not sure if this has any bearing, but my brother is an ISTP (pretty textbook), my father is an ISTJ (I think / was a chemical engineer), my mother a smothering enneagram 2, ENFP, my grandfather was an INTP, my grandmother an ESFJ (I think).

I think I lie on the T/F fence - I do use a lot of extraverted feeling, (want people to fee; comfortable in situations - no conflict...etc.), but with regards to my own emotions I tend to talk about them objectively and analyze them, but I do feel them in real time. I am sensitive to criticism and can in turn, be very critical.
what makes you sure you're a P?
I am a major proscrastinator, always run late, wait to the last minute to finish things, horrible at guaging time needed for projects, loose things (much better than in the past), *collect* things, file my taxes late etc., etc., I am so far from a J, (unless under stress), it isn't even humorus.
E/I is a really tough one to judge in anything but extreme cases. Personally I had a hard time distinguishing my E/I and sometimes have doubts. I am helped by having friends who are exceptionally close to me and able to give worthwhile opinions on the subject, all pointing directly to E.

Do your plans/dreams include the success of a group you're involved in (or plan/dream to be involved in) or the success of yourself singularly?
The ideal "dream" success would be to be singularly recognized for something - I have never thought about this in the way you've framed it - interesting.
When you need to come to a decision on a topic do you retreat to a controlled environment to weigh all of the data or do you share your problem with others?
I can talk a lot when I am excited about something.

Ideally, to get a clear handle on "details" or write I would ideally need to retreat, but that is not always possible. I am easily distracted by outside noises, people (unless in a coffe shop) when I need to read or write. But I do like to brainstorm with others.

I tend to say weird detailed statements that seem so much farther down on the priority of what I am thinking about outloud, so people sometimes feel like I don't "get it" - what they don't realize (how could they) - is that the apparent is already obvious and I don't want to discuss that - I end up bringing up things that seem minorly connected or not "on task" with the discussion. (I am thinking of work today)...
 

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I think you're an INTP.

not an especially pronounced one, but still.

check the INTP relationship page

http://www.personalitypage.com/INTP_rel.html

If you are one then it makes sense that you'd be attracted to one.

k now that that's settled want to discuss morality or something?
 

digitalmonkey

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I think you're an INTP.

not an especially pronounced one, but still.

check the INTP relationship page

http://www.personalitypage.com/INTP_rel.html

If you are one then it makes sense that you'd be attracted to one.

k now that that's settled want to discuss morality or something?
I don't know... my wave length definitely seemed to parallel this guy - but he was so much more quiet than me unless engaged in his "public mask" and then he'd skirt off to his "cave" after social interaction. But I tend to do that too, but not nearly as severe... I remember jobs in the past where I would intentionally get away from others at lunch and read, (or sleep) in my car or just leave...

Here's a few more details on me....

  • Feelings: But I seem to be in touch with other's feelings - almost too much so - I can sense what others are feeling and it affects me - positively or negatively - sometimes the energy is too much. I am bad at verbally expressing anything *real* in terms of how I feel for someone, unless emoting at full throttle - like it is too much.
  • Focus: Also, I know a lot of INTP can hyper-focus - I can, but it never seems to be what I need to be doing...
  • Animals: I feel a lot for animals (very infp I think). But I am not the "quiet presentation" of the INFP.
  • Annoyance: When growing up I didn't *like* a lot of people - they annoyed me...
  • Love: and I never really *loved* anyone - very rare - / got over them quickly unless I was "denied" and then it seemed I only wanted them b/c they weren't available or a challenge. This guy I think irritated me, b/c I really cared for him and am left holding the short stick. I can be aggressive in relationships if need be - (that's not very INTP is it)?
Once this is resolved I'd be happy to discuss morality....
 

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Well your MBTI isn't really all that important to this current lying thing.

My guess is INTP but I am not very good at typing people. A good way to find your type if you're unsure is to find a forum dedicated to that type and see how closely you can relate to it's members and how you interact with them, I originally thought I was an INTJ but a few hours on the INTJforum showed me I clearly am not.

Look at historical figures of the personality types you're stuck between, maybe you can find something someone has done historically that really strikes a chord with you. For me it's Roosevelt's bombing of Japan, the definitive ENTJ moment of the last 500 years.


I am unsure of what you are thinking about when it comes to this relationship with the liar. What is it about him that is so appealing? It's likely that we're only getting the negatives and none of the positives.
 

digitalmonkey

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Look at historical figures of the personality types you're stuck between, maybe you can find something someone has done historically that really strikes a chord with you. For me it's Roosevelt's bombing of Japan, the definitive ENTJ moment of the last 500 years.
That's a good idea. I'll check into other forums and historical figures - I don't really see myself as the Mother Thersa crusader type, but neither the Walt Disney - ugh.. I keep trying to resolve myself.
I am unsure of what you are thinking about when it comes to this relationship with the liar. What is it about him that is so appealing? It's likely that we're only getting the negatives and none of the positives.
Positives: He is intelligent, a good writer, concerned about global issues, calming, intuitive, and it was like I just *knew* the first time I saw him there was something there. Also, I at first was a little dumbfounded by his treatment of me - it seemed he was either bored/scared of talking to me, that I soon translated into him being attracted to me - then it was so much more... "reading each other" staring, exuding compliments etc. I was at first flirty, but then realized I was investing too much emotionally - thereby becoming vulnerable and taking a big step back and not talking with him - just observing. We observed each other...

Negatives/Unaswered Questions:
In terms of the future - it seems nothing will happen. He appeared to *purposively* piss me off. He lied about innocuous things like he hadn't been around certain times (when I later found out he was) - said he didn't know where one of my documents was - actually stating/telling me he "probably threw it away" - knowing I really wanted it. Lied about directions on how to get to a certain place - stating he didn't know where it was and then later mentioning in coversation he "goes there all the time" - weird stuff like that - lies that, (I perceived), were apparently false to both him and me. Either he forgot the "context" of his lies, thought I was an idiot or wanted to hurt me.

Question: if you are trying to get rid of a girl why would you purposively be cruel? Can't you just say hey it's best we don't see each other anymore? Could it be that he liked me, couldn't/wouldn't be with me and is pushing me away by being cruel or do you think he just doesn't like me anymore?? He was smitten with me for many months - that I do know.
 

murkrow

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Many months?!

Jesus Christ you Is are weird...

How can two people me mutually interested in each other for MONTHS, working together and never have it come to a head?!

anyway...

What's wrong with going up to him, telling him you find him irresistibly attractive in a way that is incredibly irrational but intriguingly human and then kissing him?
 

Perseus

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Also yay perseus for calling ENTJ lion!
Changed it to Griffin now. Lion is allocated to ESTP. About equal status with the Tiger.

This as a result of the revelations of Eziekel in Babylon. I am not biblical, I got it through Bob Dylan, own experience and latterly the Internet especially Wikipedia.
 

digitalmonkey

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Many months?!

Jesus Christ you Is are weird...

How can two people me mutually interested in each other for MONTHS, working together and never have it come to a head?!

anyway...

What's wrong with going up to him, telling him you find him irresistibly attractive in a way that is incredibly irrational but intriguingly human and then kissing him?
My last conversation he cut me off - so I am now angry and hurt. I think I'll just tell him how he made me feel in an "analogy" letter and be done with it... I have wasted WAY too much emotional energy on him...
 
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