Psychology of the beautiful gyal.

[Pyropyro]

Well c'mon then someone else take the stand, you all seem content to sit around and titter condescendingly at me behind your hands but you can only do so because I spoke my mind, shared my feelings and thus made myself vulnerable.

Can any of you do the same?

Well it's unusual for you to strip your Necrodermis off. Okay, I'll let's see what I can add to the table


View on Girls:
I also viewed girls as sex trophies before and that they only want rich, physically attractive and socially confident guys. I did try to be that guy but soon that goal vanished and I just enjoyed developing myself for just developing myself. Life is still hard but having control of my life feels liberating. Of course having a relationship would be nice but I'm really enjoying what I'm doing with my life.

There's also an odd change about my view as well. While I still like physical appearances, I now also consider their mental health, life goals and belief systems being aligned to my own.

Looking back, I've found that some of the girls I liked actually have deep-seated issues and it was best for me not to have a relationship with them. Besides, I'll make a poor therapist anyways so they're better off as well.

On Courtship:
I say courtship because we don't have a native word for dating. I've researched all about dating and frankly I think this Western strategy is the better relationship model for INTP's. But I live here so I guess I'll have to make courtship work.

I've found out that if you want to court a girl then you need to court their family members and friends as well. I think you'll need allies to get into a relationship with a girl. You can't do it alone. They may offer you useful tips, especially my married male friends or "brothers", and might even speak favorably to the girl on your behalf.

Oh yeah, I think they don't like friendship first then confess love later. They feel betrayed when you do. This is also why I'm now preventing myself on my "sisters" (close girl friends) <I've talked myself out of courting the INTJ girl I posted before BTW>.

I guess it's best to tell them upfront on what you want.

On Rejection:
I still act like a petulant child whenever I get rejected. Come on, that stings! However, my reactions get less and less dramatic as the years go by.

Coming from a calmer and more rational mindset, I think most of the rejections weren't because of me but because of their life goals. Some are simply immature and are as clueless or scared as I was. Some are more mature but are pursuing higher education or working experience (like a Doctor that I confessed to) and don't have the time and resources to engage in a relationship.

Oh BTW, I'm going to ask another girl this Sunday for a stab at courtship. Wish (or pray) me luck!

 

[Cognisant]

What would you like me to talk about?

Nothing you're an idiot.

Anyway, regarding superficiality, from your pictures @Cog, you seem both tall & attractive (and from other posts it seems you have $$$), and ur smartness, so honestly IDK what the fuckin' problem is.

I don't know either, I'm paranoid that maybe I seem standoffish or clingy or I don't smile enough or I have a creepy smile or I'm too forthright or not forthright enough, maybe I don't make enough eye contact, maybe it's too much, in short I have no fucking clue.

Best I can figure is that either there's something wrong with my brain that makes me an absolute prick and totally unable to see it or I'm just living in a bad area.

I also viewed girls as sex trophies before

WOW hang on I never said anything like that!

 

[Pyropyro]

WOW hang on I never said anything like that!

Well you did say "Lets be honest here the entire point of courtship is sex" So I guess that's the same right?

 

[Cognisant]

No, a relationship without sex isn't a relationship but that's not to say it's the basis of the relationship, only animals can have a relationship based on nothing but sex, that's a one night stand at best otherwise there's got to be some reason why you're spending time with them when you're not having sex.

I've never had a one night stand and I probably never will.

 

[Pyropyro]

No, a relationship without sex isn't a relationship but that's not to say it's the basis of the relationship, only animals can have a relationship based on nothing but sex, that's a one night stand at best otherwise there's got to be some reason why you're spending time with them when you're not having sex.

I've never had a one night stand and I probably never will.

Ah I see, it seems that I misunderstood your position. I'll be striking the word "also" in my previous post.

 

[Deleted member 1424]

I don't know either, I'm paranoid that maybe I seem standoffish or clingy or I don't smile enough or I have a creepy smile or I'm too forthright or not forthright enough, maybe I don't make enough eye contact, maybe it's too much, in short I have no fucking clue."]I don't know either, I'm paranoid that maybe I seem standoffish or clingy or I don't smile enough or I have a creepy smile or I'm too forthright or not forthright enough, maybe I don't make enough eye contact, maybe it's too much, in short I have no fucking clue.

You should make a video where you flirt with the camera and we can give you pointers! The only people who can criticize will be those who make similar videos.

I'm amused just thinking about it.


Joking aside, I think simply relaxing about the issue would help tremendously. You treat it so seriously and take such personal offense. I'm pretty much the opposite of a relationship/dating expert, but isn't the whole affair supposed to be enjoyable and fun? If it's not then the whole appeal/point is lost on me, outside of power dynamics and status perhaps. 'Relaxing' does not mean adopting a sociopathic attitude btw...

I think you need to be fine on your own before you can hope to have a decent, healthy relationship. If you find someone complementary, great. If you don't, eh, maybe next time. Your entire life, emotions, identity and self assessment should not revolve around the presence, absence, or state of someone else. Not even a spouse or child.

Being in a relationship, just for the sake of a relationship (or sex/children)... I can't imagine anything more harrowing.


sidenote:

Walkyria, you probably didn't make my top ten of worst threads on intpf, but you're at least in the top fifty. I sincerely hope you never breed.

 

[WALKYRIA]

Well people, you gonna laugh, but one of the most important things I came to internalize was the fact that:
- Girls wants men with higher status THAN HER* overall( profession, job,...Etc)+ demnstration of higher value; but not too much, otherwise she'll feel devalued.
- Men, we want a girl who has better " looks status+ feminine power(= demonstration of higher "looks"y'all know what it is !)", thus who looks better than us.... But too goodlooking and we'll be getting crazy and paranoid about loosing her.
- So it's really for both men and women about dating up !( And if you don't follow the rule, you have n chance !).

*
THAN HER : it means, if you are a doctor... It'll be hard for you to date an holywood star(yeah, cause she has relatively higher status than you the man !). BUT, if you are a women with stunning high esteeem(= feminine well balanced behaviour) and amazing looks... You can prety much get with any man.

I mean It's fucking illogical and unfair... but attraction has nothing or less to do with smarts anyways !

I mean, it seems simple but I used to go date girls who were way under my league... got kisses and ONS, but than got rejected. Same thing when I talk about my "job"; got rejected instantly with low self-esteem girls... Isnt it amazing?


Thus yeah; we should go for the people who are our equals !

 

[Polaris]

^ Do you read a lot of Men's/Women's magazines or something? Is that where you get your ideas from?

 

[Pyropyro]

Well people, you gonna laugh, but one of the most important things I came to internalize was the fact that:
- Girls wants men with higher status THAN HER* overall( profession, job,...Etc)+ demnstration of higher value; but not too much, otherwise she'll feel devalued.
- Men, we want a girl who has better " looks status+ feminine power(= demonstration of higher "looks"y'all know what it is !)", thus who looks better than us.... But too goodlooking and we'll be getting crazy and paranoid about loosing her.
- So it's really for both men and women about dating up !( And if you don't follow the rule, you have n chance !).

*
THAN HER : it means, if you are a doctor... It'll be hard for you to date an holywood star(yeah, cause she has relatively higher status than you the man !). BUT, if you are a women with stunning high esteeem(= feminine well balanced behaviour) and amazing looks... You can prety much get with any man.

I mean It's fucking illogical and unfair... but attraction has nothing or less to do with smarts anyways !

I mean, it seems simple but I used to go date girls who were way under my league... got kisses and ONS, but than got rejected. Same thing when I talk about my "job"; got rejected instantly with low self-esteem girls... Isnt it amazing?


Thus yeah; we should go for the people who are our equals !

Huh? You claim that we got no chance if we don't date up yet we should go for people who are our equals?

 

[The Gopher]

Anyway, regarding superficiality, from your pictures @Cog, you seem both tall & attractive (and from other posts it seems you have $$$), and ur smartness, so honestly IDK what the fuckin' problem is.


(Sigh, unfortunately one *must* sometimes deal in the *social game arena,* and I choose to be the chasee rather than the chaser )

I am generally chased as well but I like playing both games. Idk personally I like flirting and joking but I do it with everyone. (unless I'm with other people) Better practice that way. If you can't hold a conversation with the guy/girl serving you at a restaurant who is literally paid to be there. How do you think you are going to walk up to someone you are attracted to and talk?

I don't know either, I'm paranoid that maybe I seem standoffish or clingy or I don't smile enough or I have a creepy smile or I'm too forthright or not forthright enough, maybe I don't make enough eye contact, maybe it's too much, in short I have no fucking clue.

Well if your intent is to pick up girls people can generally tell and defenses go up and it seems creepy. If you are in a bar having a great time and because of that you notice girls looking at you that is the moment you can go up to them randomly and say hi.

That's why I tell people to make friends and become good friends with everyone. Because if you just live your life being awesome people notice. Awesome varies from person to person but if someone else has the same views on awesome as you do then you are set.

That said if you want to just pick up girls at the club then work on body language and just stand tall walk and talk slowly don't move around nervously and don't come up with a cheesy opener and wait til they show they are interested by looking at you. Oh and everyone in a club or bar that is bored watches the door. So that's a good time to be awesome. (also something something psychological if you stand tall you feel more confident same with forcing smiles while thinking about something sad)

Unnatural at first but if you want to become someone that is confident then do that. Improve yourself or insert something motivational here.

Personally though I wouldn't date me, although I might date my future self. Might even get married to me!

 

[Affinity]

Latte you're right, but you're still an asshole.
But once again I'm a proud "Condescending Bastard" so I can't complain much

Is the mentality awful, yes, yes it is.
I don't like thinking of other people as anything less than people (unless they're subjectivists) however in my experience the disassociation removes barriers, specifically the horrible catch 22 of being nervous for fear of rejection and being rejected apparently for being nervous, y'know nervousness is contagious whereas talking to someone as if asking them out is no big deal keeps the pressure off them as well.

It's not like I always think women are somehow lesser for being women, I associate with too many intelligent women who will readily cure me of such a notion if they think I seriously believe it, but when it comes to dealing with people on a superficial level I've found that best results come from adopting the superficiality, which is not my preference but y'know there's only so many times I can try to ask someone out by deconstructing the situation before I learn that it's not doing me any favors.

I wish I could be more honest but then has my honesty in this thread been more endearing or pathetic? I'm guessing the latter.

You're on the right path. Sociopaths are very successful with woman as they are not outcome dependent. They lack empathy and anxiety is not a factor which allows them to come off as extremely confident which communicates high status. Disassociation is good in this case, you want to be outcome independence. If you get rejected, it's no big deal as it should be.

Women are women, men are men, and equality is bullshit. Women are taking on more masculine traits, men are becoming more feminine and it is just not the way it should be. Focus on bettering yourself, go to the gym, take charge, and work on other alpha traits. At the end of the day you'll be a better man and the added bonus of being more attractive to the opposite sex.

 

[Minuend]

^ Do you read a lot of Men's/Women's magazines or something? Is that where you get your ideas from?

What if that's what normal ppl are like

Well, we'll never know

Well if your intent is to pick up girls people can generally tell and defenses go up and it seems creepy. If you are in a bar having a great time and because of that you notice girls looking at you that is the moment you can go up to them randomly and say hi.

I don't think there's a high probability of finding someone interesting at a bar. Well, for those who like the more shy, nerdy girls, at least.

Also, other people noticing one is a bit shy or awkward doesn't necessarily scare women away. Some women even find shy guys more adorable/ intriguing/ whatever than the confident. There's also something to be said in being comfortable with someone similar to yourself. E.g if you are shy, then you might relax a bit if you notice the other person is as well. I think it's a tad easier to go with trying to b comfortable with being awkward. To accept that one is. Confidence might grow from that eventually.

Women are taking on more masculine traits, men are becoming more feminine and it is just not the way it should be. Focus on bettering yourself, go to the gym, take charge, and work on other alpha traits. At the end of the day you'll be a better man and the added bonus of being more attractive to the opposite sex.

Why is feminine men and masculine women "not the way it should be"? Why is feminine and masculine relevant?

I find the concepts feminine and masculine redundant. I feel feminine when I wear a dress and masculine when I push stuff. (Mostly I feel neither, but more like just a "person"). Very bizarre, culturally born perceptions that makes little to no sense.

A better man is entirely subjective. Maybe for the some the mentioned is true, but for some of us, we search for those who see beyond and further. I like to consider us as superheroes who will advance the intelligence and growth of humans. Worship and donations are possible between 08 - 15 and our phones are always open to inquiries

 

[crippli]

I feel feminine when I wear a dress and masculine when I push stuff. (Mostly I feel neither, but more like just a "person"). Very bizarre, culturally born perceptions that makes little to no sense.

Me too. That is just how i experience masculinity and femininity as well. It takes more then a dress though. High heels, sexy lingerie, high hair, and lot's of badly done make up. And a stalker.

Last week I slept for 4 days in a car, and it was freezing. During the day I was competing. Got to stand on the podium. That was some macho days. And I felt sort of like a world conquerer there in the end. Girls blushing by only looking at them.

But normally, Just "a person". But on occasion, I do the feminine or, and less often, the masculine feeling. By some activity. Obviously, I don't consider physical aspects like a body to be overly relevant. Maybe I would if I had a huge ass, or a huge beer belly.

 

[The Gopher]

I don't think there's a high probability of finding someone interesting at a bar. Well, for those who like the more shy, nerdy girls, at least.

Also, other people noticing one is a bit shy or awkward doesn't necessarily scare women away. Some women even find shy guys more adorable/ intriguing/ whatever than the confident. There's also something to be said in being comfortable with someone similar to yourself. E.g if you are shy, then you might relax a bit if you notice the other person is as well. I think it's a tad easier to go with trying to b comfortable with being awkward. To accept that one is. Confidence might grow from that eventually.

Well duh, It is less likely to find interesting people at a bar, also at a bar it's more likely to find people interested in confident guys. It's contextual!

Also I practically live off being adorable and cute so I am well aware of that :P But everything you said is correct I just wanted to make sure you knew that I knew it was contextual.

 

[Pyropyro]

I don't think there's a high probability of finding someone interesting at a bar. Well, for those who like the more shy, nerdy girls, at least.

There's a lot of ladies like that on the academe, R&D Institutions (esp. Food Tech) and the local patent offices. They're nice, cute and very pleasant to work with. I wonder why males opt to go to bars to find them there instead.

 

[The Gopher]

Well you can go to uni bar nights. People can be academics and interesting and still go to bars... Like while I wouldn't go to a bar to meet people I feel the way you guys separate bars from nice people is a tad strange.

 

[redbaron]

That's why I tell people to make friends and become good friends with everyone.

This probably works with certain people who view someone with lots of friends as, "desirable". You might find there's a lot of people who don't actually care for this though, and even find the concept a turn-off. People with lots of friends tend to assume you want lots of friends too - absolutely horrible for anyone who needs a high level of personal freedom.

I'm probably bias, but it seems that most of the people I know who have, "lots of friends" are capable of that because they're fine with surface level communication. I'd rather have no friends.

Then again I wouldn't really consider someone with whom I share only surface level intimacy with a, "friend" in the first place. I suppose if I considered all those people who I share amicable relationships with on a superficial level as my friends, then I do have a lot of friends. Honestly though that seems a bit...shallow?

Women are women, men are men, and equality is bullshit. Women are taking on more masculine traits, men are becoming more feminine and it is just not the way it should be. Focus on bettering yourself, go to the gym, take charge, and work on other alpha traits. At the end of the day you'll be a better man and the added bonus of being more attractive to the opposite sex.

I tend to just think that if you're not ready to be alone you're definitely not ready for a relationship. All this stuff about being alpha and other related ideas seem to ultimately converge on the idea that we should live for ourselves and not someone else.

Yet I don't see how any of this is related to gender preconceptions. Whether someone's a man, woman, transgender or whatever other permutation of gender there is - they should live for themselves, and not use a relationship as a means of validating their existence.

The way that this somehow becomes about how women are becoming more masculine and vice-versa and how that's, "wrong" is just fucking stupid, really.

 

[The Gopher]

Spoiler

This probably works with certain people who view someone with lots of friends as, "desirable". You might find there's a lot of people who don't actually care for this though, and even find the concept a turn-off. People with lots of friends tend to assume you want lots of friends too - absolutely horrible for anyone who needs a high level of personal freedom.

I'm probably bias, but it seems that most of the people I know who have, "lots of friends" are capable of that because they're fine with surface level communication. I'd rather have no friends.

Then again I wouldn't really consider someone with whom I share only surface level intimacy with a, "friend" in the first place. I suppose if I considered all those people who I share amicable relationships with on a superficial level as my friends, then I do have a lot of friends. Honestly though that seems a bit...shallow?

I meant it more as make friends with people and if the people are cool date them. Not intended to mean if you have lots of friends people will date you. As for shallow I'm just very good at getting under the surface quickly. Although there is a definite distinction between good friends, friends and people I'm friendly with.

Edit: also as an introvert my definition of lots might be off

 

[Variform]

HAHAHAHA!

Oh seriously? LOL

Too many giggles to even breath right now

*ahem*

Okay. I'm good now. You know what? A woman wants to have sex and for a woman a relationship is the way to have that.

Also, men had...you...right where...you...wanted them. Yeah, exactly. Egads you are adorable with your tiny easily crushed ego and your needing to vent over the interwebs.

I am pleased you found it so bemusing. At least some reaction is better than none.
My ego thanks you. Nothing worse than being ignored.

 

[redbaron]

Edit: also as an introvert my definition of lots might be off

I'm thinking this might be the case. Lots of friends to most people seems to be ten or more. Lots of friends to me is like...three at most. Not sure I could even handle that. I have a partner and two other people who I dedicate a decent amount of time to. Which isn't even as much as most people dedicate.

So to me the idea of having, "lots" of friends in the way people seem to consider it is mind-boggling

 

[Variform]

Talk about these topics makes me feel lonely. I need to stay away from it.

 

[Cognisant]

Joking aside, I think simply relaxing about the issue would help tremendously. You treat it so seriously and take such personal offense. I'm pretty much the opposite of a relationship/dating expert, but isn't the whole affair supposed to be enjoyable and fun? If it's not then the whole appeal/point is lost on me, outside of power dynamics and status perhaps. 'Relaxing' does not mean adopting a sociopathic attitude btw...

I think you need to be fine on your own before you can hope to have a decent, healthy relationship. If you find someone complementary, great. If you don't, eh, maybe next time. Your entire life, emotions, identity and self assessment should not revolve around the presence, absence, or state of someone else. Not even a spouse or child.

Being in a relationship, just for the sake of a relationship (or sex/children)... I can't imagine anything more harrowing.

I am "fine on my own", I don't desperately need to be in a relationship but still being able to get by with being single is not the same as being happy with it, maybe if I knew for certain that I was going to live forever being fine would be enough because I'd always have the future to look forward to but I'm currently very much aware that I'm not immortal, the years are passing by which causes my regret and my anxiety to grow.

Sure I'm only 24, but I remember being lonely at 21 and 18 and 15 and earlier.
I never had a girlfriend when I was a teenager and now I will NEVER know that that's like, that's a horrible thought and I don't want to end up thinking much the same about my twenties, but I'm already 24.

 

[Base groove]

Joking aside, I think simply relaxing about the issue would help tremendously. You treat it so seriously and take such personal offense. I'm pretty much the opposite of a relationship/dating expert, but isn't the whole affair supposed to be enjoyable and fun? If it's not then the whole appeal/point is lost on me, outside of power dynamics and status perhaps. 'Relaxing' does not mean adopting a sociopathic attitude btw...

Agree with 'simply relaxing would help tremendously' and rationale.

I don't know either, I'm paranoid that maybe I seem standoffish or clingy or I don't smile enough or I have a creepy smile or I'm too forthright or not forthright enough, maybe I don't make enough eye contact, maybe it's too much, in short I have no fucking clue.

Best I can figure is that either there's something wrong with my brain that makes me an absolute prick and totally unable to see it or I'm just living in a bad area.

It's probably a mixture of all of it, including the bad area. 2 parts bad area for every 1 part absolute prick. Are you actually an absolute prick? I don't see it in your posting.

Sure I'm only 24, but I remember being lonely at 21 and 18 and 15 and earlier.
I never had a girlfriend when I was a teenager and now I will NEVER know that that's like, that's a horrible thought and I don't want to end up thinking much the same about my twenties, but I'm already 24.

Yes you are under a lot of pressure. Who has put the pressure there? Who is applying it and continues to apply it? How much force is involved ... etc etc

I think this has reached the point where you must link your online dating profile for forum critique...

 

[redbaron]

I am "fine on my own".

I guess it depends on how one interprets, "fine". But when you follow this statement up with talking about your ever-increasing regret and anxiety and that the thought of not having a girlfriend is horrible...it sounds like you're the opposite of being fine on your own (which isn't a dig at you).

There's no real reason to beat yourself up or be so anxious about not having had a girlfriend by whatever age. I don't think you're in an easy situation, but you don't exactly seem to make it any easier on yourself

 

[Cognisant]

What I wrote is true but I think you all read too much into it.

90% of the time I'm thinking about robots & AI
(which may be my problem)

 

[Affinity]

I tend to just think that if you're not ready to be alone you're definitely not ready for a relationship. All this stuff about being alpha and other related ideas seem to ultimately converge on the idea that we should live for ourselves and not someone else.

Yet I don't see how any of this is related to gender preconceptions. Whether someone's a man, woman, transgender or whatever other permutation of gender there is - they should live for themselves, and not use a relationship as a means of validating their existence.

The way that this somehow becomes about how women are becoming more masculine and vice-versa and how that's, "wrong" is just fucking stupid, really.

I am concerned with Hetero relationships and amplifying the contrast between men and women. How society, feminism, and generations of children raised by their mothers are reversing those roles and reducing that contrast. So no, it's not stupid really if you think about it. Want to be more attractive to the opposite sex? Create more disparity.

 

[doncarlzone]

I am concerned with Hetero relationships and amplifying the contrast between men and women. How society, feminism, and generations of children raised by their mothers are reversing those roles and reducing that contrast. So no, it's not stupid really if you think about it. Want to be more attractive to the opposite sex? Create more disparity.

Are you really concerned of just interested? The less educated and poor a country is, the more likely the women are to find the traditional alpha male attractive. You see the same trend in the different social classes in every country. It's no mystery really.

Being attractive to the opposite sex is such a broad notion anyway. You could take any random 10 men off the street and ask them what they find attractive in a woman and I probably wouldn't agree with any of them. But feel free to go chop some wood for the sake of disparity

 

[TimeAsylums]

Sure I'm only 24, but I remember being lonely at 21 and 18 and 15 and earlier.

I never had a girlfriend when I was a teenager and now I will NEVER know that that's like, that's a horrible thought and I don't want to end up thinking much the same about my twenties, but I'm already 24.

And look at what you have accomplished thus far. ++

I am "fine on my own", I don't desperately need to be in a relationship but still being able to get by with being single is not the same as being happy with it

So you are self secure. So then there really isn't a problem.

Just keep on keepin' on

 

[TimeAsylums]

Also, there is always hope:

[bIMGx=300]http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/butthurt-dweller-married.jpg[/bIMGx]

 

[Jennywocky]

This probably works with certain people who view someone with lots of friends as, "desirable". You might find there's a lot of people who don't actually care for this though, and even find the concept a turn-off. People with lots of friends tend to assume you want lots of friends too - absolutely horrible for anyone who needs a high level of personal freedom.

It's good to note that real, meaningful relationships usually also involve some investment. Some "ties that bind" are more flexible/stretchable than others, but typically you don't get something for nothing. You might be one of the first I've seen who came right out and noted that relationships might run counter to the need for high levels of personal freedom, but I think it's a good thing to remember since some of those who feel a loss at not being connected aren't connected because they're also trying to appease that freedom urge.

This is something I am actively conscious of at the moment, being a divorced woman and alone for the first time in a long while. I miss having daily connections with people (especially because I was used to them), yet at the same time forging new relationships is a huge energy and time drain and I don't know if I am prepared to do that again. over this time when I'm choosing to maintain independence, I can't really complain about not having someone.

I'm probably bias, but it seems that most of the people I know who have, "lots of friends" are capable of that because they're fine with surface level communication. I'd rather have no friends.

Yeah, what I find is that lots of times I don't feel like making the effort nowadays at something I perceive as shallow overall and not meeting my actual individual needs.

Then again I wouldn't really consider someone with whom I share only surface level intimacy with a, "friend" in the first place. I suppose if I considered all those people who I share amicable relationships with on a superficial level as my friends, then I do have a lot of friends. Honestly though that seems a bit...shallow?

I don't think shallow necessarily has to be a perjorative. It depends on what the relationship is meant to accomplish. Sometimes it is appropriate or practical to have certain types of relationships (like network relationships) that provide a basic return for a basic investment and nothing more. Or to just "be on good terms" with people so they know who you are and generally what you're about, even if you don't have a deep converation with them.

I think there can be problems when you have a relationship that typically calls for more and you don't want to invest (like a marriage or parent/child or close friendship), or you invest WAY too much in what should just be a casual relationship and is from the other person's end of things.

I tend to just think that if you're not ready to be alone you're definitely not ready for a relationship. All this stuff about being alpha and other related ideas seem to ultimately converge on the idea that we should live for ourselves and not someone else.

Yet I don't see how any of this is related to gender preconceptions. Whether someone's a man, woman, transgender or whatever other permutation of gender there is - they should live for themselves, and not use a relationship as a means of validating their existence.

^^ Agreed on that. I never like the idea of "living for someone else," even if you are being "altruistic." In the end, it's your life, and you have to provide your own meaning and not place it in another's agency, if you mean to be an autonomous individual. How can one truly give of themselves when they have nothing to give, their existence and well-being hinging on the autonomy of another?

The way that this somehow becomes about how women are becoming more masculine and vice-versa and how that's, "wrong" is just fucking stupid, really.

I figure it comes down to:

1. Know thyself.
2. With that knowledge, be the best "thyself" thou canst be.

 

[Affinity]

Are you really concerned of just interested? The less educated and poor a country is, the more likely the women are to find the traditional alpha male attractive. You see the same trend in the different social classes in every country. It's no mystery really.

Assertiveness, dominance, confidence, leadership, charisma, physical strength, status, power, money (not necessarily for its monetary value but for the status and power that come from that), etc... All women find those traits attractive to one degree or another regardless of social class.

Being attractive to the opposite sex is such a broad notion anyway. You could take any random 10 men off the street and ask them what they find attractive in a woman and I probably wouldn't agree with any of them. But feel free to go chop some wood for the sake of disparity

You can ask those men and yourself whether they prefer if they prefer women shorter or taller than them, stronger or less stronger (physically), dominant or more submissive, longer hair or shorter hair, larger bust or smaller bust, etc... And I'm sure most of them would reach the same conclusion.

 

[doncarlzone]

Assertiveness, dominance, confidence, leadership, charisma, physical strength, status, power, money (not necessarily for its monetary value but for the status and power that come from that), etc... All women find those traits attractive to one degree or another regardless of social class.

Sure, those traits come in many flavors, hence why I wrote "traditional alpha male".

You can ask those men and yourself whether they prefer if they prefer women shorter or taller than them, stronger or less stronger (physically), dominant or more submissive, longer hair or shorter hair, larger bust or smaller bust, etc... And I'm sure most of them would reach the same conclusion.

The flavors in which the common traits come, get proportionally more complex with the level of education and intelligence in humans - and yes you can end the conversation by reducing it to horny monkeys if you choose to. Btw, I have no intention of turning this into a pissing contest as I doubt there is much disagreement, really.

 

[Deleted member 1424]

Assertiveness, dominance, confidence, leadership, charisma, physical strength, status, power, money (not necessarily for its monetary value but for the status and power that come from that), etc... All women find those traits attractive to one degree or another regardless of social class.

Clearly, I must not be a woman then. I find dominating men repugnant, and men obsessed with power, status and wealth even more so. It's completely disgusting to me. Believe it or not, most people prefer to have fewer assholes in their life.





It's hilarious that so many frustrated men on this forum purport to know so much about the inherent base nature of all women. You know the last thing they'd ever actually do is listen to what a woman actually says about her perspective or, god forbid, view them as individual people with different desires, philosophies and needs. Your ignorance is painfully evident and you sound more brainwashed than fundamentalist Christians.

I wish you all the best of luck finding the skeleton key to the vagina.

 

[Jennywocky]

There's a skeleton key?

... maybe it's time to get that vagina dentata upgrade and post the "Beware of Teeth" sign.

 

[doncarlzone]

Clearly, I must not be a woman then. I find dominating men repugnant, and men obsessed with power, status and wealth even more so. It's completely disgusting to me.

Agreed. There are the same stereotypical notions for what men want.

 

[Cherry Cola]

Do you ever wonder if the people who are interested in you are ones you don't notice because they are also the ones who do not dare to approach you?

 

[Jennywocky]

Do you ever wonder if the people who are interested in you are ones you don't notice because they are also the ones who do not dare to approach you?

It makes you wonder sometimes how the human race hasn't died off yet.


... but yeah, if you happen to favor the same traits that instill a barrier against initiating contact, you won't have much luck.

 

[Cherry Cola]

It makes you wonder sometimes how the human race hasn't died off yet.


... but yeah, if you happen to favor the same traits that instill a barrier against initiating contact, you won't have much luck.

I'm pretty sure that happened to me and a gal about 2 years ago, in fact in retrospect I'm quite certain of it. Oh well ^^

First we was like digging each other, then we was like not sit next to each other once, then we was like what is going, then I cba'd to show up for school.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

You know the last thing they'd ever actually do is listen to what a woman actually says about her perspective or, god forbid, view them as individual people with different desires, philosophies and needs.

It would help if women were more inclined to speak up and offer their perspective, I am pretty sure there are lots of guys that would be willing to listen. There is a trend/pressure for them to be intellectually repressed from what I've experienced.

 

[Jennywocky]

^^ Ironically, they were trying that on INTPComplex just a few days ago.

End Result: Men took over the entire thread, women created their own subforum [female only] to discuss women's issues in. Go figure.

 

[doncarlzone]

Gender role discussion - it's doesn't get any more 2014. That's all people talk about in my country - food and gender roles. Usually starts off with a man whining on a blog who subsequently gets verbally raped by women. It's a reoccurring trend.

 

[Affinity]

Clearly, I must not be a woman then. I find dominating men repugnant, and men obsessed with power, status and wealth even more so. It's completely disgusting to me. Believe it or not, most people prefer to have fewer assholes in their life.

I think people are taking it the wrong way when I list these traits because surely you can be dominant without being an asshole, assertive without being a douchebag, attain power/status/wealth without being a sociopath. Don't take it to the extreme but don't be spineless either because both extremes are simply undesirable.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

I have talked enough about myself already but once more can't hurt.

Spoiler

My development:

For as long as I can remember, which is 2nd grade or 7 years old, I've had the inability to transfer my interest in certain females to (successful) social interaction, leading to various crushes of different lengths that I've had to internally endure in the last 15 years where I'd often just stare like an idiot. The first real crush I ever had which involved actual attempts at socializing was with a girl I met at 13/14 years old, but she was bi/lesbian and probably didn't realize I had romantic feelings. After that I asked out a couple more girls and was rejected(again, one was bi/lesbian). Then I met another girl my last year of highschool who I had more chemistry with than my first real crush, we were getting along fine for weeks until school had ended and I never got her number or even thought about getting it, I took it pretty hard after graduation.

Since then, I've been around attractive women at my local college, but I don't have the interest, energy, or confidence to approach any of them, not to mention the fact that it would be much harder to get to know them in such a setting as it's not like high school.

My perspective:

I don't hate women, if anything I like them too much. But I'm aware that my lack of relationships/experience leads to idealization, frustration and misunderstandings with females. So to be responsible for myself I try not to let any of it affect women, but there is still my long standing problem of being unable to socially interact in general.

I understand that improving oneself helps, and I'm working on that. But that's not what gets to me, what gets to me is that everyday you can see tons of people in relationships and to be responsible is know that you aren't entitled to a woman because they're individuals also, but seeing everyone else in relationships feels like a sick joke when trying to keep that in mind. I also don't think I'd be a very good partner besides commitment and acceptance, but then I look and see full blown sociopathic people who do have partners then it's like 'what does mean for me?'.

I can handle myself, and value independence greatly but as I've elaborated in another thread, I would feel too superfluous without a cause to devote myself too, self-indulgent living until the day I die is not a meaningful life for me. The cause doesn't have to be a relationship (with or without having kids of my own), but I'd still have a lingering desire for social intimacy.

 

[Jennywocky]

I think I find it difficult to talk about because I don't feel "typical" either, as much as any of you of any gender persuasion might.

My ENFJ friend and I were talking about this last night. She's 36, I'm 45, we're both divorced and thus "free to date." But the main gist is that both of us have already had kids and we just don't naturally market ourselves.

She does have an attractive body after being severely overweight a few years ago, and as she lost weight she went from unnoticed to getting hit on regularly, but her time in the dating field pretty much just revealed guys who wanted to have a fun dates and sex (if they could get it) and then moved on regardless. She enjoys dating and sex as much as anyone else, but was looking for something a little more meaningful; and eventually, when she caught on, she stopped dating. The gist was that you definitely get attention if guys are physically attracted to you, but it doesn't mean they are relationship material or looking for something long-term.

For me, I tend NOT to put out the typical female mating calls I see other women do -- I'm not telegraphing overtly that I'm going to pamper you, stroke your ego, fuck your socks off, clean your house, or be the emotional damsel in distress who you can then "be a man for" -- I tend to engage guys on a creative or intellectual level and thus I don't feel like I ever get seen as dating material myself. It's not that I'm not sexual or inaccessible, people typically like me, find me smart and funny, and we laugh a lot and can have insightful discussions. But nothing romantic/sexual ever seems to come from it. And it's not that in a relationship I WON'T take care of my partner, not have mind-blowing sex, not dote on him and want to take care of him... but it's not something I telegraph well until I'm actually IN the relationship.

(My track record suggests that I find someone when I'm pursuing an area of interest for me and meet someone of like mind who I end up spending time with, and things suddenly click. I'm not really someone who thrives or who enjoys the dating scene. The people I end up with usually are capable of seeing who I am beyond the surface.)

Aside from not feeling attractive to men, it doesn't bother me a ton in the pragmatic sense because I rarely meet a man I am personally interested in anyway, but I admit it would make ME feel good on some level to feel attractive that way even when I'm not interested. Oh well.

....

as far as commenting on what I see in the thread (and I don't feel like rereading it all), well, part of the problem is that a chunk of you are in a different stage of life than me... teen and 20-something year old guys who haven't had girlfriends and are dying to find someone, have sex, enter a LTR. You've never really HAD something mind-blowing yet and are taking it hard that you haven't.

I'm not sure what to say about that, except that obsessing about it isn't going to be an attraction to most women. Insecure men are not a turn-on... but I also understand that you might be insecure because you're deep enough to be aware of your failings, thoughtful enough to imagine/experience failure, etc. IOW, if you were dumber, or meaner, you might actually have more TEMPORARY success. The nice, thoughtful folks often disadvantage themselves in that shitty stage of life, and I'm sorry you are there. A lot of people go through it. I can just say that becoming absorbed by it will derail your chances to find someone. I think you'd do better to not obsess over it, and find something you love to do and are good at, and shine at it -- something bigger than yourself. I find myself attracted to guys who are really good at what they do and love what they do, while not needing to do it to "prove themselves."

Basically, somehow you gotta come to grips with your own failures and weaknesses, and be okay with it rather than beat yourself up over it, and move forward with your lives. YOu also gotta accept that girls can be immature too and not see you for who you are, and even if that means you are currently alone, that's their fault and not yours... but ALSO accept that you need to give women time to grow up and find themselves... so you can stop fretting over that and getting pissed about it. You really gotta be focusing on knowing yourself and then chasing after what you love regardless. Some of that stage is just something to "ride out" until people grow up some more and can view themselves and each other with clearer eyes. Note how a lot of these issues are just "people" issues, but they might just look a bit different depending on personality and gender. That's all.

Sorry for the lousy motivational speech. It's a first draft. I hope it is useful to someone.

 

[TimeAsylums]

I'm going to pamper you, stroke your ego, fuck your socks off, clean your house, or be the emotional damsel in distress who you can then "be a man for"

Anyone else turned on?? 11/10 best roleplay

I tend to engage guys on a creative or intellectual level

smart and funny, and we laugh a lot and can have insightful discussions

but this too

 

[Jennywocky]

See, wtf?! The only people I get hot with are guys online whose faces I'll never see!

I'm doomed to virtual sexing for eternity.

 

[Base groove]

I think it's one of the worst ways people can treat each other - to have preconceived notions about the way someone is or what they're going to do next based on what's happened in the past between other people, but you see it everywhere anyway.

It's how prejudices form and it only takes a few trials for prejudice to firmly set in place.

Something as "fun" as the dating game can turn pretty 'un-fun' pretty quickly.

 

[TimeAsylums]

See, wtf?! The only people I get hot with are guys online whose faces I'll never see!

I'm doomed to virtual sexing for eternity.

On a serious note,

It is damn hard to find a "bestFriend + a partner + a romantic partner + a sex partner" all in one. Sometimes you get mixes.

Anyway, I agree with Jenny on that one must simply focus on oneself. Become self-secure, as Kuu mentioned elsewhere, become comfortable with being alone. Because being alone does not have to equal loneliness, for you can be surrounded by people and still be lonely.




unseriously:

I'm going to pamper you, stroke your ego, fuck your socks off, clean your house, or be the emotional damsel in distress who you can then "be a man for"

Hmm...my mom does 4/5 of these....

 

[doncarlzone]

Hmm...my mom does 4/5 of these....

And how come she doesn't clean your house too?

 

[Jennywocky]

Anyway, I agree with Jenny on that one must simply focus on oneself. Become self-secure, as Kuu mentioned elsewhere, become comfortable with being alone. Because being alone does not have to equal loneliness, for you can be surrounded by people and still be lonely.

Great. Thanks for that memory...all three million of those memories...

pamper you, stroke your ego, fuck your socks off, clean your house, or be the emotional damsel in distress who you can then "be a man for"

Hmm...my mom does 4/5 of these....

.... still trying to figure out which four.







EDIT: .... aw. Don beat me to it.