Problems with Narcissism, Anxiety, and Anhedonia

[Ex-User (9062)]

When I seem to be in a Feeling grip, I definitely notice Six characteristics. When I am more like an INTP, I go into more like a Five observation mode. Sometimes I think enneagram is too much like astrology, though.

How do the six characteristics manifest?
INTP should most often be a five, but there are exceptions, of course.
Hm, well... i think it still can be a useful tool to put all the things one has not yet systematically assessed into perspective.

 

[TBerg]

How do the six characteristics manifest?
INTP should most often be a five, but there are exceptions, of course.
Hm, well... i think it still can be a useful tool to put all the things one has not yet systematically assessed into perspective.

As I have developed as a person, the Six characteristics have manifested in my desire for a psychological and physical place where I feel like I have a place. Like I am something rather than nothing in the most philosophically solipsistic way imaginable, knowing that my genesis is not what human reality really calls for. All my life, I have felt like people think of me as stupid, incompetent, and ultimately unworthy. I have also had some thoughts when I was a child that have made me wonder whether I am a sociopathic, child-molesting, misogynistic, rapist deep down. None of these things ever really happened, but I know why I might have had those thoughts early in my individuation. My mom always told me that she did want me to end up with these kind of traits, minus the child-molesting, which she attributed to my dad. I thereafter had a reaction formation against them that undermined my quest to find my true place in the world. I used TV shows and movies to try to figure out what people were truly like out there and what I was really expected to be. Thus arose my schizo desires to be everything at the same time.

I can deconstruct the fuck out of everything around me, knowing that reality does not fit together very nicely at all. I shoot the air out of others knowing that I have only air inside of me. I really fucking desire to have something that I can proudly call myself, but I just don't see it happening, because I am so sensitive to criticism anymore. My attempts to fulfill my Feeling sides have produced anxiety that negated those attempts. I never knew if I was on the right track or if I was using sociopathic methods to trick people into giving me affirmation. I use those somewhat sociopathic methods to make sure that my inner turmoil is taken into account when I am dealing with others. As you see, these traits fulfill the E6 skepticism and feeling of hopelessness. This all takes place from a place of detachment, which also makes me think of Five. Nowadays, my Rational side takes a more prominent role in my life, if people would only listen to me.

 

[TBerg]

https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=26726#.U0rqjYWO41w

According to this, I form my ideas for more security-based reasons, not wanting to accept things that don't make sense according to the little survival system that I rely upon for guidance.

 

[Ex-User (9062)]

I wonder where this sense of "insecurity" comes from.
I'm a six myself.
I'm mostly phobic, but recently i had bursts of counterphobic behaviour.
If i remember correctly, i had been counterphobic in my socially productive times.

 

[Analyzer]

What is a key difference between 5w4 and 5w6? I am for sure a 5, but go back and forth between the wings.

I have a feeling 5w6 are more concerned with "social" issues rather than natural or mathematical problems unlike the 5w4.

 

[Ex-User (9062)]

What is a key difference between 5w4 and 5w6? I am for sure a 5, but go back and forth between the wings.

I have a feeling 5w6 are more concerned with "social" issues rather than natural or mathematical problems unlike the 5w4.

I would say, off the bat, type 4 is a down to earth, creative, intuitive, individualistic, emotional, nostalgic and warm-hearted person.

The 6 is challenging, critical, loyal, less individualistic, security-seeking, doubting and emotionally reserved.

I'm not sure how to compare them in regards to your specific question,
but i may say for myself that i enjoy the "soft" sciences more than the "hard" ones.

 

[TBerg]

5w4s get their jollies off by brutally demonstrating reality as it fundamentally is. 5w6s feel that these insights are too destructive, and so they find a way to explain these insights away, as it were. Do you come as a godlike destroyer, or do you wish to create your own gods?

 

[TBerg]

I wonder where this sense of "insecurity" comes from.

How could the world pull the rug out from your entire existence?

 

[Ex-User (9062)]

Is this a rhetorical question?

 

[TBerg]

Is this a rhetorical question?

Not at all. Be as serious as possible.

 

[TBerg]

Come on, man. I showed you mine. Now you show me yours if this is going to continue being interesting.

 

[TBerg]

So, right now my best friend and my sister are both having serious relationship issues that are threatening their marriages. My mom is taking it very hard. She is the most emotional person I know, and I am one of the most suppressive of my emotions. I am a student in stoicism. I hate that I just can't fix things. My sister is either putting up a massive front of sanity or is putting up with too much shit from her husband.

My best friend wants me to participate in a charade of an affair, telling her husband that I am coming for a visit when a prospective lover is also coming. This is to cover questions over credit card bills. I feel uncomfortable about the whole thing, but it might be the only way to moderate the situation. I don't want to participate in something that might blow up in her face and also hurt me in its path of destruction. I feel like I am going to lose more of any honest integrity that I have left. It is probably going to make me more misanthropic and distrustful.

 

[BigApplePi]

So, right now my best friend and my sister are both having serious relationship issues that are threatening their marriages. My mom is taking it very hard. She is the most emotional person I know, and I am one of the most suppressive of my emotions. I am a student in stoicism. I hate that I just can't fix things. My sister is either putting up a massive front of sanity or is putting up with too much shit from her husband.

My best friend wants me to participate in a charade of an affair, telling her husband that I am coming for a visit when a prospective lover is also coming. This is to cover questions over credit card bills. I feel uncomfortable about the whole thing, but it might be the only way to moderate the situation. I don't want to participate in something that might blow up in her face and also hurt me in its path of destruction. I feel like I am going to lose more of any honest integrity that I have left. It is probably going to make me more misanthropic and distrustful.

TBerg. I kept your OP in a window for a long time to see if I could say something in response just to make contact. I couldn't. I want to say something so I'll give an impression rather than be rational. I find your posts difficult to parse they are so integrated putting out more than one concept at the same time. That's it.

BTW when I read "5w4s" I have no idea what that means. Translate? Let's see if you want to respond to that or not before I try anything further.

 

[Ex-User (9062)]

Talking about my own experience or generalizing?

 

[TBerg]

TBerg. I kept your OP in a window for a long time to see if I could say something in response just to make contact. I couldn't. I want to say something so I'll give an impression rather than be rational. I find your posts difficult to parse they are so integrated putting out more than one concept at the same time. That's it.

BTW when I read "5w4s" I have no idea what that means. Translate? Let's see if you want to respond to that or not before I try anything further.

Thank you for your consideration. It makes me feel like I actually have people attempting to understand where I am truly coming from.

The difficulty with which you understand my posts probably is a result of the split soul that I experience in my everyday as well as intellectual life. I have so many different elements that I have acquired throughout my attempt at recovering an ego that it is hard for me to reconcile them myself. There are pieces that I try to put together, but they suffer from the disjunction of different parts created by different standards. My life concepts come from the outside, but they feel very personal to me. Sometimes I think I have the potential for multiple personality disorder, but it is not really that stark.

A 5w4 is a Type Five with a Four Wing. That means their disposition is observation with a penchant for pure individuality, without regard for external social concerns. It would follow that their intellectualized individuality would burn away at social reality. Sometimes I kind of feel this way, but my most pressing concern is making sure that I understand social reality so that I can forestall any danger to my tenuous place in the world. This intellectual regard for security places me squarely in the 5w6 camp, whose members such as Malcolm X devised intellectual artifices in order to resolve social concern that pressed upon the one who is 5w6.

 

[TBerg]

Talking about my own experience or generalizing?

Your own experience. Take the question as personally as possible.

 

[Ex-User (9062)]

Enneagram Type 5, wing 4.

 

[Ex-User (9062)]

I usually try to stay out of such situations of entanglement.
That's all i can say.

 

[TBerg]

I usually try to stay out of such situations of entanglement.
That's all i can say.

You are such a tease!

 

[Ex-User (9062)]

I don't feel too comfortable with that.

 

[TBerg]

I don't feel too comfortable with that.

I just wanted to know a little bit of how you work.

 

[Ex-User (9062)]

Well, i don't feel comfortable being a tool in the hands of others.
I don't think so much about my reputation among people who know me,
as i'm sort of a Kantian.
I am also very suppressive in terms of emotions, because i think they can cause irrational behaviour.
I don't really grasp the case with your sister, though.

 

[Ex-User (9062)]

In all respect, i have to disagree.
I think that MX was not solely self-serving, otherwise he would not have taken all the risks to be repressed by TPTB upon himself.
Rather, he had an analytic eye for figuring out the most pressing issues
and a creative intellect to put them into words.

 

[TBerg]

At base, it is self-serving, because leaders of liberation desire most of all to clean up the wretched state of those with whom they are associated. I guess that might reflect my general view of human nature more than anything. The projections of my own psyche upon others. But we could debate this fundamental point forever due to lack of full knowledge.

I also would like to note that some leaders of oppressed groups get the psychological dividends of being big fish in little ponds. They can be leaders of something at least.

 

[Ex-User (9062)]

Well, would you say the Buddha, Ghandi, MLK and MX had only pursued their individual interest, when at the same time being able to pull masses of people for their project?
From my view, it is obvious that the interests of those people had been represented in that movement. (Otherwise they might as well have stayed at home.)

 

[TBerg]

Yes, of course the interests of those people were considered, but the interests were channeled through the individual ego need of security.

 

[Ex-User (9062)]

But wouldn't that contradict the very real possibility, of which most of those figures had been aware, of being martyred?

 

[TBerg]

But wouldn't that contradict the very real possibility, of which most of those figures had been aware, of being martyred?

That's the price we must sometimes pay to maintain the illusions of our egos. Our egos are sometimes stronger than our individual survival. They were martyred in order to provide radical integrity.

 

[Ex-User (9062)]

Hm, in my world the ego is supposed to assure the survival of the individual.
Wouldn't it be more logical to ascribe those qualities to the super-ego?

 

[TBerg]

In these cases, the ego is so idealistic that it follows the ego ideal pretty reliably.

 

[BigApplePi]

Thank you for your consideration. It makes me feel like I actually have people attempting to understand where I am truly coming from.

Since you like to talk about yourself I will talk about my self. I actually don't know whether I know where you are coming from or not. On one hand not much you say jells in my brain; on the other hand I have to ask myself if there is some narcissism to you. After all, it's in the thread title plus you continually talk so much about yourself. I rarely do that. In a weak sense I admire your smooth sentences.

The difficulty with which you understand my posts probably is a result of the split soul that I experience in my everyday as well as intellectual life. I have so many different elements that I have acquired throughout my attempt at recovering an ego that it is hard for me to reconcile them myself.

What ego? If I were to try to tell you my ego I wouldn't do it ... not sure where I last put it.

There are pieces that I try to put together, but they suffer from the disjunction of different parts created by different standards. My life concepts come from the outside, but they feel very personal to me. Sometimes I think I have the potential for multiple personality disorder, but it is not really that stark.

Not knowing you I find nothing mysterious when someone is experiencing the opposition of different values. I say look at some particulars and put them together. I feel that's weak of me. I could look at your earlier messages but am not doing that. I'm sticking to the present for now.

A 5w4 is a Type Five with a Four Wing. That means their disposition is observation with a penchant for pure individuality, without regard for external social concerns. It would follow that their intellectualized individuality would burn away at social reality. Sometimes I kind of feel this way, but my most pressing concern is making sure that I understand social reality so that I can forestall any danger to my tenuous place in the world.

Do you realize you said all that to a complete stranger? ... for that is what I am. Do you realize that first sentence has zero meaning for me? I read things linearly. You are painting a picture and I'm not ready to buy the picture ... as I gather you wouldn't want me to. What social concerns? You talking recent happenings? What's so tenuous about your place in the world? Is it more tenuous than mine?

This intellectual regard for security places me squarely in the 5w6 camp, whose members such as Malcolm X devised intellectual artifices in order to resolve social concern that pressed upon the one who is 5w6.

Thar ye go agin. What system does this "5w6" belong to? I did read "The Autobiography of Malcolm X" some 40 years ago but what you said does not communicate.

 

[Ex-User (9062)]

Let me rephrase this more radically:
Putting other people's needs and interests before one's own is anti-egoism per defininition.
Ergo, the motivation must be regulated by something else, most probably the super-ego.

 

[TBerg]

As I have developed as a person, I have never ever expressed many of the core issues that I explain in these posts. I have kept much away from my closest friends and family when I had them, and then eventually lost many of them fundamentally because I did not have the intimacy to care about them. I cannot afford a therapist and have no insurance. I find the process of self-discovery interesting, and I hope others do so as well. This sort of talk therapy really does help me.

My social reality as never really made any sense. My family has been in turmoil for as long as I have remembered. I felt different and alien to much of the people I have interacted with, sometimes encouraged by the family turmoil and sometimes encouraged by my parents' bringing me up non-traditionally. I never felt like I could do anything that people would appreciate. I felt ashamed to be me. So I invented a lot of bullshit to make certain impressions upon people. I wanted to find a way to construct a reality that would parallel the reality I was facing in a way that would connect to my existentialism. I needed to find a way to secure my ego in my society.

I am just giving my own synthetic interpretation of the Enneagram, a system which I admit has certain Barnum characteristics. That might be the reason you find my interpretations so opaque.

Malcolm X joined the Nation of Islam and remained a Muslim for the rest of his life, even after he threw off the tethers of Elijah Muhammad. If that was not done for security reasons, I don't know what else is.

 

[TBerg]

Let me rephrase this more radically:
Putting other people's needs and interests before one's own is anti-egoism per defininition.
Ergo, the motivation must be regulated by something else, most probably the super-ego.

Makes sense. But I still contend that the ego receives dividends from the super-ego.

 

[BigApplePi]

My social reality as never really made any sense. My family has been in turmoil for as long as I have remembered.

What? Why not? What IS your social reality? Your social activities can be outside your family. I can understand you have family ties. Those are different.

I felt different and alien to much of the people I have interacted with, sometimes encouraged by the family turmoil and sometimes encouraged by my parents' bringing me up non-traditionally. I never felt like I could do anything that people would appreciate. I felt ashamed to be me.

That was then. This is now. How do you take the people on this Forum who talk to you? I take them fine. I'm interested in both topics and how individuals do them. I don't always recall what an individual says but after a while can get to know something of them. How's by you so far? Have you gotten to know anyone?

So I invented a lot of bullshit to make certain impressions upon people. I wanted to find a way to construct a reality that would parallel the reality I was facing in a way that would connect to my existentialism. I needed to find a way to secure my ego in my society.

Are you going to bullshit me? You will have a tough time.

I am just giving my own synthetic interpretation of the Enneagram, a system which I admit has certain Barnum characteristics. That might be the reason you find my interpretations so opaque.

Why don't we take it as it goes? I don't particularly care to learn Enneagram if it gets in the way of exchange.

BTW I broke down my responses into separate sections. Do you find that annoying?

 

[TBerg]

@BAP,

Currently my family is having problems that I am trying to help them with. That is why I talk about my family right now. I have one other good friend, and that's basically it. She lives a few hundred miles away, so I don't get to see her often enough, though. I have not really fit in anywhere due to my need to make up a deceitful persona to cover up my vulnerabilities and potentially frightening thoughts. Suppressing my dark nights and never telling people about them is what probably made me lose my ability to find pleasure.

When I talk to people on the Forum, sometimes I fear that they won't understand me either. I find some of the humor difficult to get behind, and some of their intellectual products appear to overshadow how I judge my own intellectual ability. I fear trying to get to know some members for fear that I will use an unsustainable persona to relate to them. I fear that I truly have nothing that people appreciate. I don't know what to do without personas tailored to fit the destruction or service of others. I do not feel like I have a core inside of me that people will accept.

I personally prefer posts without separation, as I find the separation itself distracting. It also makes me think that I have to use the same number of paragraphs, when perhaps one paragraph can answer multiple questions at the same time.

 

[TBerg]

Right now I am feeling like I have no desires of my own. I don't even know who I am, because so much of my personality is devoted towards the need of security from others. I cannot trust my own feelings because they threaten the very fabric that I have laid out for my protection. When I look into it, I see the problems, but I fear that I will lose everything if I abandon the poor methods of survival that I have accumulated over the years. I don't trust my own perceptions because I know of the many layers of neurotic patterns that prevent me from seeing things clearly. I don't trust what I am saying now, because it could be a desire for negative attention. But I am also choking up right now. I don't usually cry at all.

One thing that I know is my fault is my laziness, which I have at least partially rectified, but the fear that I am not doing my part is still there. I am now very sensitive and quick to anger when people accuse me of not doing enough. Good luck working with me.

 

[BigApplePi]

Right now I am feeling like I have no desires of my own. I don't even know who I am, because so much of my personality is devoted towards the need of security from others. I cannot trust my own feelings because they threaten the very fabric that I have laid out for my protection. When I look into it, I see the problems, but I fear that I will lose everything if I abandon the poor methods of survival that I have accumulated over the years. I don't trust my own perceptions because I know of the many layers of neurotic patterns that prevent me from seeing things clearly. I don't trust what I am saying now, because it could be a desire for negative attention. But I am also choking up right now. I don't usually cry at all.

One thing that I know is my fault is my laziness, which I have at least partially rectified, but the fear that I am not doing my part is still there. I am now very sensitive and quick to anger when people accuse me of not doing enough. Good luck working with me.

"Good luck working with me." Tell me something TBerg. I see your self-expression and something of the content of what you're saying. Are you satisified or would you like ME to take a shot at getting you out of where you say you are at? (Not that I could ... I'm just asking for a shot. I'm in no hurry if you aren't.)

 

[TBerg]

I feel better at this exact moment. But go ahead anyway. I need to continue to unwrap my defenses.

 

[TBerg]

Reading Karen Horney seems to be good for me.

 

[BigApplePi]

Reading Karen Horney seems to be good for me.

I especially liked her, "Neurosis and Human Growth" if I recall that title correctly. Read it 40+ years ago. It defined three personality types I was fond of. What were they? Self-effacing, Arrogant, Withdrawn?

Edit: I meant neurotic personality types.

 

[TBerg]

Right now I am reading Self Analysis. I wanted to know more practical things first, like how to go about figuring things out without going too far into the self-defeating and exacerbating cycle of rumination and obliteration.

 

[BigApplePi]

I read that one also 40+ years ago and thought that was a great idea. I could cure myself and didn't need to rely on anyone else. I was wrong.

 

[TBerg]

That's a nice good night warning.

 

[Grayman]

My attempts to fulfill my Feeling sides have produced anxiety that negated those attempts. I never knew if I was on the right track or if I was using sociopathic methods to trick people into giving me affirmation.

It is the reality of the human race. Affirmation is a necessity and something we sought for since childhood. It is best if they give it while validating it with evidence but many simply give it through sympathy without any real consideration of what it is they are giving. I have trouble myself when receiving non-validated affirmation. The feeling as if I tricked them used to be an issue myself. I have decided to not emotionally accept such affirmation as an upgrade to my confidence and as such I do not have to feel guilt for it. I do accept validated affirmation but that is okay as the evidence shows something indicating that it was earned. I can accept non-validated affirmation as a want to bond and will pursue efforts to contribute in my own fashion to satisfy whatever needs they may have.

 

[Grayman]

Right now I am feeling like I have no desires of my own. I don't even know who I am, because so much of my personality is devoted towards the need of security from others. I cannot trust my own feelings because they threaten the very fabric that I have laid out for my protection. When I look into it, I see the problems, but I fear that I will lose everything if I abandon the poor methods of survival that I have accumulated over the years. I don't trust my own perceptions because I know of the many layers of neurotic patterns that prevent me from seeing things clearly. I don't trust what I am saying now, because it could be a desire for negative attention. But I am also choking up right now. I don't usually cry at all.

One thing that I know is my fault is my laziness, which I have at least partially rectified, but the fear that I am not doing my part is still there. I am now very sensitive and quick to anger when people accuse me of not doing enough. Good luck working with me.

I cannot know how much or what you do; nor could I be a valid judge if I had seen. Have you taken up the responsibility of another life with a promise? This is the greatest responsibility. The rest of the responsibility is given by yourself and taken by yourself. We must seek our own purpose and place your own expectations on ourselves. No one else can do this and no one else should do this. They offer but a knowledge of new options. We must always accept the evidence but deny the opinion and seek our own answer. Only in this will we find our own truth. No ones truth or perception is fully valid but it is what we have. If we cannot trust our own then we are nothing and we trust nothing. If we cannot trust ourselves who can we trust?

 

[BigApplePi]

I feel better at this exact moment. But go ahead anyway. I need to continue to unwrap my defenses.

That's good you feel better right now, but is that fair to a future self of yours that might feel badly? What would happen to you if you let down your defenses and became vulnerable? This is not an easy Q to answer.

 

[TBerg]

That's good you feel better right now, but is that fair to a future self of yours that might feel badly? What would happen to you if you let down your defenses and became vulnerable? This is not an easy Q to answer.

You are actually touching upon what I was trying to say. I want to continue the process of unwrapping my defenses so that the massive ugly shell that I have created is pared down to something that allows me to see what might be inside. Today I have dealt with attacks on my psyche from members of my family who continue to do the same goddamned negative thing over and over, sneaking around and letting petty crap trigger full-blown wailing. It made it difficult for me to disarm when there were things occurring around me that made it seem like nothing would ever change the fucking shit that engulfs my perception of reality. God I want to meet someone and feel like I would not have to lie to them to make them like who I am. I fear that telling them all of my darkest secrets would prompt ostracization. I also follow certain classically Freudian patterns of dealing with my family, but that might be due more to my hypochondriacal attachment to dark things.

 

[BigApplePi]

You are actually touching upon what I was trying to say. I want to continue the process of unwrapping my defenses so that the massive ugly shell that I have created is pared down to something that allows me to see what might be inside. Today I have dealt with attacks on my psyche from members of my family who continue to do the same goddamned negative thing over and over, sneaking around and letting petty crap trigger full-blown wailing. It made it difficult for me to disarm when there were things occurring around me that made it seem like nothing would ever change the fucking shit that engulfs my perception of reality. God I want to meet someone and feel like I would not have to lie to them to make them like who I am. I fear that telling them all of my darkest secrets would prompt ostracization. I also follow certain classically Freudian patterns of dealing with my family, but that might be due more to my hypochondriacal attachment to dark things.

This is getting closer to a solution. But loosening up on defenses must be done with care ... not in front of the enemy, real or imagined, but to a friendly. I do not know what is going on with your family so I cannot say. Furthermore I do not see your shell as "ugly." It's just a shell.

As to meeting someone (say on this Forum) you wouldn't have to lie to, deepest and darkest secrets aren't necessary. They are too easily misunderstood because they are so special. I would recommend an ordinary secret ... secret is the wrong word. Just reveal some unknown to your listener. To be fair this should not be one-way. People have told me, for example, I try to analyze people without revealing myself. They are right in faulting me for that. Let's see. What should I reveal about myself that would get you to feel safe? ... Um. Glug. I'm at a loss for words. Well, how about: I have undergone psychotherapy and have sort of felt ashamed of it when I have no reason to feel that way. If I am correct, this is the first time I've revealed this secret since I've been on this Forum.

 

[digitalbum]

I remember my precocious friend in high school saying how funny/hypocritical/ironic it was that when his parents, and others, were younger, they were such idealistic hippies, now they drive around in SUVs and own boats. They still have all their Beatles albums though, I've seen 'em.