Problems with Narcissism, Anxiety, and Anhedonia

[TBerg]

I feel the need to check in right now because I want to remain accountable to someone for something, as that keeps the constructive incentives flowing. I started out today with a sense that things were okay but that people complaining about petty crap might take me into someplace that would not be open to people but would be closed to what they may have to offer.

Right now I have a few beers in me, about which I am ambivalent. I am coasting through this post right now, knowing that thoughts are coming quicker to my fingers but that these thoughts are greased and numbed by the alcohol. This is the first time I have drunk something in a week or so. I recognize the benefit of having feelings not drowned out by the alcohol, and I know my mind has become more discerning without it, but I actually like the taste of beer and I have an unwarranted expectation that it will not detract from my ability to sense what is occurring around me and react in a constructive manner that allows me to process it at a higher level. I feel slick but stupid right now. I hope I can have more so-called willpower tomorrow. Have a good weekend.

 

[TBerg]

Okay. Time for a completely sober post. Today I felt tired from a trip back from selling things at an art festival, so a lot of my psyche was probably deadened from that. But right now I feel like I have made some progress in actually starting to feel attached to certain phenomenal activity around me. No longer is everything felt as absolutely pointless, futile, deranged, and groundless. For sure, I know that my nihilistic destroyer is still inside somewhere, but I seem to be able to do what others expect of me sometimes. It is like I get energy from the outside, and not of the weird narcissistic kind, either. Like I am actually forming real connections. I think living in a small Southern town really brings out my thick shell of defense mechanisms. Getting out of here and experiencing civilized people might have made my perceptions more healthy. Good thing there are more art festivals to go to in the weeks ahead. I notice in this post that I am less esoterically introverted and relying less upon my personal primitive archetypes.

But I know from reading Karen Horney that my personality structure must be examined piece by piece, noticing how seeing the surface of my psyche is only the beginning of solving my problems. I must continue to write hereon so that I have the sense that others will see what I solve or fail to solve in my mind. And I must really pay attention to my chains of thought so that I start to notice where my pressure points really are and how I might find new ways of receiving the information, either affectively or cognitively. With that in mind, I am going to go meditate.

Thanks for reading.

 

[TBerg]

Shit. That led me to a semi-psychotic state of mind in which I perceived that something like a demon, perhaps myself, inside of me was having weird perceptions and feelings. I did not so much notice myself and my surroundings as these weird happenings inside my mind. This also happens to me when I masturbate sometimes, though not very frequently at all. I feel a little disturbed right now.

My perceptions were like a series of somewhat abstract moving images that were transformed by my thought and that sucked me in the more I tried to see them. I also had strange feelings that transformed with the images. What triggers this stuff?

 

[Variform]

feel slick but stupid right now. I hope I can have more so-called willpower tomorrow. Have a good weekend.

How dopes one get willpower? Doesn't that require an act of will?

 

[BigApplePi]

@TBerg. Excuse me if I have this wrong. Is it your intention to treat this thread as a blog or diary and avoid interactions with other posters?

 

[Grayman]

Tberg

Your poetic view of reality leaves you estranged from people and ungrounded in reality.

 

[TBerg]

Tberg

Your poetic view of reality leaves you estranged from people and ungrounded in reality.

Honestly, precision is my top priority. I want to find the right words for the right things. I hate the crudeness of so much language, whether uttered by me or others. I just want to find better ways of saying things. But if there is aesthetic and emotional force behind it, then that is even better.

If I don't understand your question properly, then just rephrase it. I would be glad to answer more fully.

 

[TBerg]

@TBerg. Excuse me if I have this wrong. Is it your intention to treat this thread as a blog or diary and avoid interactions with other posters?

I just did not want to lose any data in different contexts. I intend to answer any question that is obviously asked. And I truly appreciate any answer that others provide me. Sometimes I do not know how to respond to others.

 

[TBerg]

How dopes one get willpower? Doesn't that require an act of will?

It depends on your stance on ontology and free will. I tend to view willpower as a paradox, something that feels like you are in control. I am both my will and a product of my will. I will and am willed. I know that I do not know exactly the difference between by ego exercising its veto power over my will and my will expressing itself through my ego. (In this case: will = id = archetypes; Shopenhauer < Nietzsche < Freud < Jung.)

 

[BigApplePi]

I just did not want to lose any data in different contexts.

Can you explain or elaborate on what you mean by that? I don't understand.

I intend to answer any question that is obviously asked.

That would be fine.

Sometimes I do not know how to respond to others.

May I advise you? You could start by saying, "BAP (that is me), I do not know how to respond to you." That would be adequate. No long answer explaining yourself is required. It's like a ball in a tennis court. One of us throws the ball to the other and the other returns it ... and so forth.

 

[TBerg]

Can you explain or elaborate on what you mean by that? I don't understand.


That would be fine.


May I advise you? You could start by saying, "BAP (that is me), I do not know how to respond to you." That would be adequate. No long answer explaining yourself is required. It's like a ball in a tennis court. One of us throws the ball to the other and the other returns it ... and so forth.

What I meant was that it is hard to remember the language in which I was thinking from day to day, and that these linguistic contexts need to be recorded in the most original state possible in order to see how I am progressing.

On the other matter, sometimes people come up with ideas of their own, and I find that it is better to let their ideas stand as they are without my interpretation. I will try to remember how to civilly talk to people on this board using basic manners. God I feel stupid sometimes. But growing away from that is what you provoking psychological resistance in me is all about, right?

 

[Red myst]

Who is the X-Girl you use for your avatar? Do you identify with her character, or this particular image, both, or neither? She seems to have that deep introspective but troubled look, like I could imagine you may look at times. Your writing is a bit less grounded than I am used to dealing with. I guess I am trying to ask a more concrete question, looking for a more concrete responce. Im an istp, if that explains it.

 

[TBerg]

Rogue. She has the power to suck the life out of everyone and absorb their powers. I historically feel like I have no power of my own, and so my modus operandi has been to either undermine people psychologically or try to learn their psychology so that I might instill it into my own mind.

Rogue also feels like she cannot get to close to others for fear that her affection would kill her lover. She consequently feels estranged and alienated. That also applies to my own psychological history. I feel that I should not get close to others for fear that I would make them worse people and as deranged as I feel. I have developed sometime arrogance to compensate for this feeling.

 

[Red myst]

Rogue. She has the power to suck the life out of everyone and absorb their powers. I historically feel like I have no power of my own, and so my modus operandi has been to either undermine people psychologically or try to learn their psychology so that I might instill it into my own mind.

Rogue also feels like she cannot get to close to others for fear that her affection would kill her lover. She consequently feels estranged and alienated. That also applies to my own psychological history. I feel that I should not get close to others for fear that I would make them worse people and as deranged as I feel. I have developed sometime arrogance to compensate for this feeling.

Can you give me some examples of how you have undermined people psychologically? Or examples of others psychology that you have tried to assimilate?

I totally get your avatar now. Even if I would have known it was Rogue, you have put it in a better perspective for me.

 

[TBerg]

Can you give me some examples of how you have undermined people psychologically? Or examples of others psychology that you have tried to assimilate?

I totally get your avatar now. Even if I would have known it was Rogue, you have put it in a better perspective for me.

I used to watch a lot of TV in order to see how others think and behave and see if I can find some examples of alternatives to my dysfunctional family members. I watched YouTube videos of debates to study how to defeat people in games of argumentation, in hope that I could win socially by winning rhetorically. I looked up biographical facts about how these debaters prepared for their rhetorical and academic prowess and tried, in vain, to implement them in my own life. I try to figure out how people around me work in their psyches, and then I deploy sarcastic nihilism to compensate for things that seem threatening to me.

 

[Red myst]

Some people do what you are talking about to an extent. But I guess you are telling me that you do this to an extream. Have you abandon this kind of thing now? Or are you still prone to doing it? Have you ever had someone in real life that you could get inside their head and adopt their psyche? I have noticed that certain people have entered into my life that have seemed to kind of "rub off on me". It's odd, but like I absorbed a bit of their way of thinking or sense of humor. Can you relate to any of they?

 

[TBerg]

Some people do what you are talking about to an extent. But I guess you are telling me that you do this to an extream. Have you abandon this kind of thing now? Or are you still prone to doing it? Have you ever had someone in real life that you could get inside their head and adopt their psyche? I have noticed that certain people have entered into my life that have seemed to kind of "rub off on me". It's odd, but like I absorbed a bit of their way of thinking or sense of humor. Can you relate to any of they?

I haven't really engaged in this behavior, save for the sarcasm, for a few months now. My new hope is in this thread, in which I hope that I will feel comfortable enough to lower some of my defenses and let others examine me. I hope that I am sometimes challenged and made to see patterns that I have avoided understanding for some time. Every time I am challenged, I hope that I can keep looking at the reason for my psychological resistance to fully understanding what they are saying.

When I went to college, I hung around the people that seemed to be the opposite of my family. I hung out with a lot of conservative Christians and had a secret desire to both have the social acceptance that they seemed to inculcate within their communities and have the ability to fit in to that environment without sacrificing all of my principles. During the process, I learned that there are different kinds of people everywhere and that neither I nor they had the answers to everything. But in some ways, I wished I could truly understand devotion at their level.

When it comes to people "rubblng off" on me, I try to make jokes that I think pertain to their situations and parrot their ways of talking about things. Sometimes I fail. But it was always too superficial, as their psychological depth did not seem to meet the needs in my own life. Now that I am studying psychology, I sometimes try to follow the language and body language that people use, and I sometimes successfully interpret them either lightheartedly or sarcastically. It annoys people sometimes, but it gives me a certain power, and sometimes I am able to do it in a way that results in better relations.

 

[Grayman]

Honestly, precision is my top priority. I want to find the right words for the right things. I hate the crudeness of so much language, whether uttered by me or others. I just want to find better ways of saying things. But if there is aesthetic and emotional force behind it, then that is even better.

If I don't understand your question properly, then just rephrase it. I would be glad to answer more fully.

I did not feel your poetry was simply how you spoke but of how you see. You want to percieve this emotion and beauty in everything you take in. I wonder if you see this emotion and beauty in yourself or is what you want to percieve externally a replacement for what is inside. Perhaps you are trying to make the world seem less dull because you inside you are void of what it has to offer thus far.

If this is true, how far can one take it before reality becomes what it is not? How much does it seperate yourself from the reality of others?

 

[Red myst]

I haven't really engaged in this behavior, save for the sarcasm, for a few months now. My new hope is in this thread, in which I hope that I will feel comfortable enough to lower some of my defenses and let others examine me. I hope that I am sometimes challenged and made to see patterns that I have avoided understanding for some time. Every time I am challenged, I hope that I can keep looking at the reason for my psychological resistance to fully understanding what they are saying.

When I went to college, I hung around the people that seemed to be the opposite of my family. I hung out with a lot of conservative Christians and had a secret desire to both have the social acceptance that they seemed to inculcate within their communities and have the ability to fit in to that environment without sacrificing all of my principles. During the process, I learned that there are different kinds of people everywhere and that neither I nor they had the answers to everything. But in some ways, I wished I could truly understand devotion at their level.

When it comes to people "rubblng off" on me, I try to make jokes that I think pertain to their situations and parrot their ways of talking about things. Sometimes I fail. But it was always too superficial, as their psychological depth did not seem to meet the needs in my own life. Now that I am studying psychology, I sometimes try to follow the language and body language that people use, and I sometimes successfully interpret them either lightheartedly or sarcastically. It annoys people sometimes, but it gives me a certain power, and sometimes I am able to do it in a way that results in better relations.

You can have their level of devotion, I see you already having a lot of devotion to yourself. The best kind to have. You are investing in yourself. That's something no one can take away from you. You are very self aware, something that I find rare. Well, on this forum it is not rare. There are a lot of very enlightened individuals on this fourm. Sometimes I feel that this self awareness is one of the things that makes us feel alone. This self awareness makes me feel a sense of confidence on one hand, but a bit of loneliness on the other. Every once in a while I come across someone in person who shares this particular trait, and conversation just flows.
So, what do you want to do career wise? What do you have a "knack" for?
What would you like to do that will not take "willpower" but will be energizing and stimulating? Oh, and why again do you think you have screwed up your life?

 

[TBerg]

You can have their level of devotion, I see you already having a lot of devotion to yourself. The best kind to have. You are investing in yourself. That's something no one can take away from you. You are very self aware, something that I find rare. Well, on this forum it is not rare. There are a lot of very enlightened individuals on this fourm. Sometimes I feel that this self awareness is one of the things that makes us feel alone. This self awareness makes me feel a sense of confidence on one hand, but a bit of loneliness on the other. Every once in a while I come across someone in person who shares this particular trait, and conversation just flows.
So, what do you want to do career wise? What do you have a "knack" for?
What would you like to do that will not take "willpower" but will be energizing and stimulating? Oh, and why again do you think you have screwed up your life?

Maybe I have not sewn that tapestry of my life together for you guys to see yet.

When I was a child, I fantasized about being Jesus, a superior messiah, the richest man in the world, the emperor of the world, and president of the United States. This is what led me to think about morality and politics. I studied political science in college, and I wanted to do something to make me feel involved. I worked at an NGO in DC for two and a half years, then got laid off due to lack of funds during the recession and lack of drive and skill on my part. I applied for a job teaching English in China and did that for a year and a half, then left because all of the toxic stuff there was making me sick all the damn time. From this experience of illness, I considered being a naturopathic doctor, but settled on pursuing neuroscience as a career path because I thought it was more interesting. I went back to college, and took science courses.

It was a transition that gave me tremendous anxiety, a phenomenon that made me shut down all of the gentle and heartfelt life that may have been in me at some point. I became even more mean and sarcastic and socially nihilistic. I am quite innumerate, and the algebraic part of Chemistry just thwarted me every time I spent hours every week trying to get that stuff into that dull aspect of my mind. It made me feel like shit. I did okay in my Biology classes, which involved less math, and I did well my psychology and philosophy classes. I got the second best grade in the class for my philosophy term paper. It energized me, but there is not really any work out there for philosophers, unless you are really lucky. To tell you the truth, work of so many sorts just produces a lot of anxiety in me. It distracts me from completing the task. I used to have a lot of anxiety about reading, writing, math (still do), and socializing. It makes me feel like those anxious years as a child set me back and that I will never be as proficient as the people I admire.

Now I am living at home again, helping my parents with their business and working around the house and doing work in the yard and the woods. I told them I was going to help them set up a hoop house for gardening, which is probably to arrive sometime this year or next. My parents at least understand some of what I am, but their presence brings back some psychological ghosts that I am trying to relate to in a healthy manner. But it is hard, man, it is hard. In the medium term, I hope to find an okay tech job to finance my part-time schooling in psychology. But it is hard to find a job that can pay all of the expenses.

 

[Red myst]

Maybe I have not sewn that tapestry of my life together for you guys to see yet.

When I was a child, I fantasized about being Jesus, a superior messiah, the richest man in the world, the emperor of the world, and president of the United States. This is what led me to think about morality and politics. I studied political science in college, and I wanted to do something to make me feel involved. I worked at an NGO in DC for two and a half years, then got laid off due to lack of funds during the recession and lack of drive and skill on my part. I applied for a job teaching English in China and did that for a year and a half, then left because all of the toxic stuff there was making me sick all the damn time. From this experience of illness, I considered being a naturopathic doctor, but settled on pursuing neuroscience as a career path because I thought it was more interesting. I went back to college, and took science courses.

It was a transition that gave me tremendous anxiety, a phenomenon that made me shut down all of the gentle and heartfelt life that may have been in me at some point. I became even more mean and sarcastic and socially nihilistic. I am quite innumerate, and the algebraic part of Chemistry just thwarted me every time I spent hours every week trying to get that stuff into that dull aspect of my mind. It made me feel like shit. I did okay in my Biology classes, which involved less math, and I did well my psychology and philosophy classes. I got the second best grade in the class for my philosophy term paper. It energized me, but there is not really any work out there for philosophers, unless you are really lucky. To tell you the truth, work of so many sorts just produces a lot of anxiety in me. It distracts me from completing the task. I used to have a lot of anxiety about reading, writing, math (still do), and socializing. It makes me feel like those anxious years as a child set me back and that I will never be as proficient as the people I admire.

Now I am living at home again, helping my parents with their business and working around the house and doing work in the yard and the woods. I told them I was going to help them set up a hoop house for gardening, which is probably to arrive sometime this year or next. My parents at least understand some of what I am, but their presence brings back some psychological ghosts that I am trying to relate to in a healthy manner. But it is hard, man, it is hard. In the medium term, I hope to find an okay tech job to finance my part-time schooling in psychology. But it is hard to find a job that can pay all of the expenses.

I am a bit innumerant myself. Anything other than basic arithmetic I learned because it involved a practical application I needed in everyday work. I could not learn in a school environment. Have you always had trouble with math? Or was the college math just more than you were expecting. From what I understand you were home schooled?

What kind of "tech" job did you have in mind?

I understand the tapestry somewhat better now. You did really cover a lot in your opening posts, but this summery clears it up a little more. You do need to find your niche career wise. You know now some of the things to avoid. And you know what you are good at. You have had some good life experiences. They count. Try to think of them that whey when your nihilism creeps in. They weren't a wast of time, and you are doing the prudent thing working to realign your career path.

 

[TBerg]

I am a bit innumerant myself. Anything other than basic arithmetic I learned because it involved a practical application I needed in everyday work. I could not learn in a school environment. Have you always had trouble with math? Or was the college math just more than you were expecting. From what I understand you were home schooled?

What kind of "tech" job did you have in mind?

I understand the tapestry somewhat better now. You did really cover a lot in your opening posts, but this summery clears it up a little more. You do need to find your niche career wise. You know now some of the things to avoid. And you know what you are good at. You have had some good life experiences. They count. Try to think of them that whey when your nihilism creeps in. They weren't a wast of time, and you are doing the prudent thing working to realign your career path.

I have never really been interested in math at any level. I have a lot of holes in my understanding of the dynamics of mathematical operations. I cannot manipulate equations to solve problems in different contexts unless someone tells me how.

I choose to associate my upbringing with the unschooling movement because of its lax nature. I know a lot of things because I was able to pursue my own interests, which did not include math. But my parents did require some pre-algebra studying. I liked history and geography.

I will search for tech support or installation jobs after I have gotten my parents on a better footing with their big garden and household maintenance and renovation. There are no jobs around here, and there are no universities around here.

I just am uncertain that I can develop rapports with people enough to be effective in my jobs or in becoming a psychologist, but maybe I am just thinking about my performance at parties. But I am not completely sure what my strengths really are, and if they can actually serve something.

 

[Red myst]

I have never really been interested in math at any level. I have a lot of holes in my understanding of the dynamics of mathematical operations. I cannot manipulate equations to solve problems in different contexts unless someone tells me how.

I choose to associate my upbringing with the unschooling movement because of its lax nature. I know a lot of things because I was able to pursue my own interests, which did not include math. But my parents did require some pre-algebra studying. I liked history and geography.

I will search for tech support or installation jobs after I have gotten my parents on a better footing with their big garden and household maintenance and renovation. There are no jobs around here, and there are no universities around here.

I just am uncertain that I can develop rapports with people enough to be effective in my jobs or in becoming a psychologist, but maybe I am just thinking about my performance at parties. But I am not completely sure what my strengths really are, and if they can actually serve something.

Not seeing your interaction with people, I can't comment on your rapport. But you write very well. Your virtual rapport seems to be very good. I would guess that you could be a writer of some sort. Perhaps some sort of journalist or blogger. Just throwing that out there, I have no idea how to get a foot in the door in those occupations. But I'm just telling you what I see.

So to find work, you will have to move away from your parents. And supporting yourself while trying to go to university is tough. How did you do it when you studied political science? Did you get a degree in political science? What kind of work did you do at NGO? If you were not laid off would you have liked to continue working there? And what's your experience in the tech support or installation field? I'm assuming you are talking about IT type work.

 

[TBerg]

I did not feel your poetry was simply how you spoke but of how you see. You want to percieve this emotion and beauty in everything you take in. I wonder if you see this emotion and beauty in yourself or is what you want to percieve externally a replacement for what is inside. Perhaps you are trying to make the world seem less dull because you inside you are void of what it has to offer thus far.

If this is true, how far can one take it before reality becomes what it is not? How much does it seperate yourself from the reality of others?

Yes, you are right. My libido is directed towards the transformation of my perception so that my frailties are overlooked for better things of esoteric beauty. Without the transformation, I feel like nothing. I feel like I have nothing else to offer myself or other people. I feel like I can not find someone to love and who would love something of my real depth. I feel like I cannot do anything. I just feel like a fucked up loser of a kid.

 

[Grayman]

Yes, you are right. My libido is directed towards the transformation of my perception so that my frailties are overlooked for better things of esoteric beauty. Without the transformation, I feel like nothing. I feel like I have nothing else to offer myself or other people. I feel like I can not find someone to love and who would love something of my real depth. I feel like I cannot do anything. I just feel like a fucked up loser of a kid.

You feel these things but what do you reason?

 

[TBerg]

You feel these things but what do you reason?

Okay. I used some of my crap on my best friend, but she also loves part of my true depth. I am able to sometimes create brilliance in ideas. I know that my curiosity is the most important impulse in my life. I know that it enables me to see things that others do not see. I know that I enjoy researching about matters and then explaining them in text and sometimes speech. I know that I can see problems that others do not see. But I am sometimes cowardly and do not express these things for fear of being inappropriate or create inconvenience for me. And my style sometimes works against my literal intent by being blunt in a sarcastic or ridiculing manner.

I also know that this quasi-public examination of my psyche is making it easier to be honest with myself without as many defensive arguments or excuses.

 

[Grayman]

Okay. I used some of my crap on my best friend, but she also loves part of my true depth. I am able to sometimes create brilliance in ideas. I know that my curiosity is the most important impulse in my life. I know that it enables me to see things that others do not see. I know that I enjoy researching about matters and then explaining them in text and sometimes speech. I know that I can see problems that others do not see. But I am sometimes cowardly and do not express these things for fear of being inappropriate or create inconvenience for me. And my style sometimes works against my literal intent by being blunt in a sarcastic or ridiculing manner.

I also know that this quasi-public examination of my psyche is making it easier to be honest with myself without as many defensive arguments or excuses.

Yet your emotions do not find these qualities to be enough to bring you value. What greater value do you seek? What is of greater importance?

 

[TBerg]

Yet your emotions do not find these qualities to be enough to bring you value. What greater value do you seek? What is of greater importance?

Fixing the universe, because I am Allah.

 

[Grayman]

Fixing the universe, because I am Allah.

Exagerated truth?

 

[TBerg]

Fixing the universe, because I am Allah.

That was my starting point at least. After slowly stepping down from that pedestal, I wanted to be an academic marvel, but lacked the talent and temperament to pull it off at the time. I got magna cum laude at a small liberal arts college without august academic standards, and I still did not think that was very impressive. I thought it would not get me into a good enough position or graduate school.

So much of this was guided by my need for narcissistic energy, but I was never satisfied or very happy at all, mostly because of my negative self-image in social situations.

 

[Grayman]

That was my starting point at least. After slowly stepping down from that pedestal, I wanted to be an academic marvel, but lacked the talent and temperament to pull it off at the time. I got magna cum laude at a small liberal arts college without august academic standards, and I still did not think that was very impressive. I thought it would not get me into a good enough position or graduate school.

So much of this was guided by my need for narcissistic energy, but I was never satisfied or very happy at all, mostly because of my negative self-image in social situations.

The jump in phsche and time confuses me. How can you be on that pedestal and have so little faith in youself?

Why was that pedestal bad in the first place? Ideals are not meant to be achieved. It is only important that achievable goals where placed before the ideal to provide adequate satisfaction on the way. The path, when regarding our lives, must be more important than the goal but that does not invalidate the goal.

 

[BigApplePi]

So much of this was guided by my need for narcissistic energy, but I was never satisfied or very happy at all, mostly because of my negative self-image in social situations.

Let's see if you can answer this TBerg. What is the opposite of narcissism?

 

[TBerg]

I had faith that a guardian angel in college would take care of me and give me insight into reality that would allow me to actually fulfill the things I wanted to fulfill. I knew that my experience was at odds with the people surrounding me, so I also knew that my understanding of anything was very limited. I thought I was more limited than other people. But I always had ambassadors that brought me to new social situations and new parts of the world. I guess they were my guardian angels. I had a few friends before, but I was never before embedded in a mass society that I would have been in primary and secondary school. I would have been slaughtered by those motherfucking children, though. I do not condemn those choices my parents made.

Basically I am saying that I suspected that it was not true that I was divine, but it was my animating drive. At any rate, I knew I had to burn away at it in order to have anything anyone else had. I feared that no one respected me but were simply looking at me like a clownish alien. My negative attention-whoring was why I projected that feeling onto others. They had to conclude that.

 

[TBerg]

Let's see if you can answer this TBerg. What is the opposite of narcissism?

Service, maybe.

Freud: Other-directed libido.

Jung: Extroversion.

 

[BigApplePi]

Originally Posted by BigApplePi
Let's see if you can answer this TBerg. What is the opposite of narcissism?

Service, maybe.

Freud: Other-directed libido.

Jung: Extroversion.

Those are good theoretical answers. Suppose I rephrase. Suppose we say you are "stuck" in a narcissistic state. How would you say your expression on this Forum differs from say ... Grayman's or Red myst's with whom you have just been speaking? Take a look at their posts. How are they different from yours?

 

[TBerg]

Those are good theoretical answers. Suppose I rephrase. Suppose we say you are "stuck" in a narcissistic state. How would you say your expression on this Forum differs from say ... Grayman's or Red myst's with whom you have just been speaking? Take a look at their posts. How are they different from yours?

The difference is my expression of my deepest insecurities and the fact that I judge myself so harshly for the these insecurities. I judge myself like a wrathful Middle Eastern god would. I would not have been able to see this without this process.

 

[BigApplePi]

Originally Posted by BigApplePi
Those are good theoretical answers. Suppose I rephrase. Suppose we say you are "stuck" in a narcissistic state. How would you say your expression on this Forum differs from say ... Grayman's or Red myst's with whom you have just been speaking? Take a look at their posts. How are they different from yours?

The difference is my expression of my deepest insecurities and the fact that I judge myself so harshly for the these insecurities. I judge myself like a wrathful Middle Eastern god would. I would not have been able to see this without this process.

Yes we could say you have judged yourself harshly. However there is another difference. As a clue, what is the definition of narcissism? How would you say the difference between you and them is in terms of narcissism?

 

[TBerg]

Yes we could say you have judged yourself harshly. However there is another difference. As a clue, what is the definition of narcissism? How would you say the difference between you and them is in terms of narcissism?

I am looking at myself and they are not?

 

[BigApplePi]

I am looking at myself and they are not?

Very good. That is what I was looking for. Note that you phrased what they were doing as a negative. How could you phrase what they are doing as a positive?

Something I like to do is avoid using "not" as it doesn't say what is.

 

[Grayman]

God I want to meet someone and feel like I would not have to lie to them to make them like who I am. I fear that telling them all of my darkest secrets would prompt ostracization.

People are prone to objective morality. Their judgments are often of little value. My mother said she would disown me if she found out I was gay. There was some speculation on the matter likely because I was not interested in sexual activity. Currently my mother has nothing to do with me as I make no efforts to please her and will oppose her, although kindly and gently.

I have come to the conclusion that everyone has those dark secrets. I am not certain why you feel the need to share them. Our secrets don't define all of who we really are. I suppose there can be some. I will not judge you.

You mentioned social fakeness. I am much more like you.... maybe...

I am of two minds...

ONE:

I have no guilt for the pain I cause to those around me. I have little concern for their little insignificant pleasures. They are so concerned with the unconcerning. So wrapped up in sharing their every little pleasure throughout the day as if everyone else were supposed to enjoy it. If I let any one of them know I saw it this way they would think me a horrible person. I do not really care though. There is no point of letting them know and I am happy letting them think their pleasures are worth something because believing it so makes them accomplish what they need to at the end of the day. I will even go so far as to commit to the social expectations myself and ask about their children as if I really cared about them. I don't know their children so why should I care? I will ask how their day went even though I don't expect them to tell me the truth. I will call someone and tell them I missed them even though I did not but I know they need to hear that I did. I will listen to complaints without comment and look concerned even though I think it all petty. I will then try to get them to see to see how petty their issues are but they do not see. They suffer. They hurt themselves and I cannot stop it. If someone rapes you why do you allow yourself to give them the privilege of taking more when you let it destroy your life? When someone dies why destroy more, of your soul, by committing to depression. Why do you give the world the satisfaction of taking your 'will' when the world takes your eyes? Why allow others to take your happiness? Why let them destroy your confidence, your mental foundation? I have the gift of choosing how I feel, to choose what I see, to choose what I value, I am a force of will and when my body is broken and bleeding and the skin is peeled from my bones I will be solid in my will because it cannot be taken. For me to lose it is to meet the death of who I am. The world is petty. It is insignificant. It is selfish. I do not care about pleasing it. I want nothing from it. I only want it to have the same satisfaction that I have. I only want to allow itself happiness.

I am more concerned with the larger picture. The value of life itself and the overall satisfaction derived from it. I am more concerned with helping other receive that satisfaction than I am about the small things.

TWO:

I have a value that it is important to empathize. I chose this value as core value although I have no idea what makes it valuable beyond my belief. I value a love that is not just a give and get but a give with no return. I value understanding in a way that I can feel what they feel and see it the way they see it. I value knowing them and loving what I see because I value it as they do. I see through their eyes and I see their pain and I do not enjoy it so I want to stop it. I see their lack of satisfaction in life, so I want to give them what I have and enjoy so much. I see their sorrow and depression and a heart that is void of emotions because their fear to fill it. I want to fill it for them.


Combined:

When I see them value the insignificant I empathize and I value the happiness derived from what they see itself. When they suffer the small things, I suffer with them, I feel the pain through their eyes, so that they don't have to feel alone. Although I do this in the current, I still maintain the future. I must seek total satisfaction for the individual for the future above the current. Thus I will cause pain in the current to derive a better future for them. I also see the eyes of those they love and the eyes of those around them and I see their pain too. I want to keep them from suffering from the others and the others from them. It is all impossible and not within my abilities to stop or fully comprehend. It is all too complex but I value the attempt and so I must do what I can when it will be accepted.

 

[TBerg]

Very good. That is what I was looking for. Note that you phrased what they were doing as a negative. How could you phrase what they are doing as a positive?

Something I like to do is avoid using "not" as it doesn't say what is.

I can only look at others within my own perception. I know I need to look at others and comprehend them, but my comprehension is created by my own psychological dynamics, which I have described. I need to overhaul my manner of creating perceptions so that I can comprehend others and find constructive interpretations, instead of devaluing them in my perceptions. That's why I have been pushing my interpretations to the surface of this discussion, in hope that you would find ways of prodding me back toward a better-blazed trail in my psychological journey.

 

[BigApplePi]

I can only look at others within my own perception. I know I need to look at others and comprehend them, but my comprehension is created by my own psychological dynamics, which I have described. I need to overhaul my manner of creating perceptions so that I can comprehend others and find constructive interpretations, instead of devaluing them in my perceptions. That's why I have been pushing my interpretations to the surface of this discussion, in hope that you would find ways of prodding me back toward a better-blazed trail in my psychological journey.

That is an interesting response. Now I have to find another way to address to you what I want to say. You say you need to comprehend others. No you don't. Not to just interact with them.

Actually I want you to do something which may sound a little weird. What I'm after is to get you to do something non-narcissistic. You are good enough at examining your own self. The new task would be to do something with another person ... say one of the two I mentioned or myself. Again that sounds weird.

You see we (the three of us) are separate people just as you are from us. What I would like you to do ... for an exercise ... is to make some inquiry to one of us about them that has no apparent relation to you. The object is to get outside of yourself. This is practice mind you. Can you do that?

 

[TBerg]

People are prone to objective morality. Their judgments are often of little value. My mother said she would disown me if she found out I was gay. There was some speculation on the matter likely because I was not interested in sexual activity. Currently my mother has nothing to do with me as I make no efforts to please her and will oppose her, although kindly and gently.

I have come to the conclusion that everyone has those dark secrets. I am not certain why you feel the need to share them. Our secrets don't define all of who we really are. I suppose there can be some. I will not judge you.

You mentioned social fakeness. I am much more like you.... maybe...

I am of two minds...

ONE:

I have no guilt for the pain I cause to those around me. I have little concern for their little insignificant pleasures. They are so concerned with the unconcerning. So wrapped up in sharing their every little pleasure throughout the day as if everyone else were supposed to enjoy it. If I let any one of them know I saw it this way they would think me a horrible person. I do not really care though. There is no point of letting them know and I am happy letting them think their pleasures are worth something because believing it so makes them accomplish what they need to at the end of the day. I will even go so far as to commit to the social expectations myself and ask about their children as if I really cared about them. I don't know their children so why should I care? I will ask how their day went even though I don't expect them to tell me the truth. I will call someone and tell them I missed them even though I did not but I know they need to hear that I did. I will listen to complaints without comment and look concerned even though I think it all petty. I will then try to get them to see to see how petty their issues are but they do not see. They suffer. They hurt themselves and I cannot stop it. If someone rapes you why do you allow yourself to give them the privilege of taking more when you let it destroy your life? When someone dies why destroy more, of your soul, by committing to depression. Why do you give the world the satisfaction of taking your 'will' when the world takes your eyes? Why allow others to take your happiness? Why let them destroy your confidence, your mental foundation? I have the gift of choosing how I feel, to choose what I see, to choose what I value, I am a force of will and when my body is broken and bleeding and the skin is peeled from my bones I will be solid in my will because it cannot be taken. For me to lose it is to meet the death of who I am. The world is petty. It is insignificant. It is selfish. I do not care about pleasing it. I want nothing from it. I only want it to have the same satisfaction that I have. I only want to allow itself happiness.

I am more concerned with the larger picture. The value of life itself and the overall satisfaction derived from it. I am more concerned with helping other receive that satisfaction than I am about the small things.

TWO:

I have a value that it is important to empathize. I chose this value as core value although I have no idea what makes it valuable beyond my belief. I value a love that is not just a give and get but a give with no return. I value understanding in a way that I can feel what they feel and see it the way they see it. I value knowing them and loving what I see because I value it as they do. I see through their eyes and I see their pain and I do not enjoy it so I want to stop it. I see their lack of satisfaction in life, so I want to give them what I have and enjoy so much. I see their sorrow and depression and a heart that is void of emotions because their fear to fill it. I want to fill it for them.


Combined:

When I see them value the insignificant I empathize and I value the happiness derived from what they see itself. When they suffer the small things, I suffer with them, I feel the pain through their eyes, so that they don't have to feel alone. Although I do this in the current, I still maintain the future. I must seek total satisfaction for the individual for the future above the current. Thus I will cause pain in the current to derive a better future for them. I also see the eyes of those they love and the eyes of those around them and I see their pain too. I want to keep them from suffering from the others and the others from them. It is all impossible and not within my abilities to stop or fully comprehend. It is all too complex but I value the attempt and so I must do what I can when it will be accepted.

Wow. That is exactly like how I think about things. You managed to capture it with such detail that I can see all the pieces come together. I can see that you have such a focus that does not get caught up so often in the cacophony of irrational and unkind impulses.

Do you feel satisfaction from this, or is it more an attempt at keeping madness at a minimum around you? Is it a little of both, in that you feel good after bringing down the noise?

If empathy is so important, do you think that our main goal should be to understand others?

 

[Grayman]

Wow. That is exactly like how I think about things. You managed to capture it with such detail that I can see all the pieces come together. I can see that you have such a focus that does not get caught up so often in the cacophony of irrational and unkind impulses.

Do you feel satisfaction from this, or is it more an attempt at keeping madness at a minimum around you? Is it a little of both, in that you feel good after bringing down the noise?

If empathy is so important, do you think that our main goal should be to understand others?

It is contentment, satisfaction, inner-calmness, but it is also purpose. How I felt when younger is best defined in the last paragraph after the asterix. Currently I am in a place between the meditation and the after affects of it. Calm but determined.

I am not certain how to define accurately what the madness of the world really is. The world is chaotic on the surface but once you see the pieces they all have a part and they all effect each other. The chaos is not physical it is not the world. It is in you. The world is but what it is needed to be to turn.

When I see nature I find nature to be the balance. A man comes along and he creates chaos. He builds a house and he creates rules and he fights against nature. Nature seeks to achieve balance again. It tries to reclaim the lawn. It tries to grow over the garden. It tries to bring back down the house. The man fights this. He pushes back. He spends his whole life pushing the dust back out off his floor, replacing the rotting boards on his deck, putting up new shingles, and weeding his garden. Nature keeps fighting back and the man stresses and feels anxious that he cannot keep things in order. He reaches an old age and he cannot keep the garden producing. The roof is leaking and the deck is broken. He dies a tired man. Over many years the house is gone and in its place lies the forest. It is as if the man never existed.

Strength and happiness is not achieved by facing your enemy. It is achieved by dancing with your enemy. Understanding your enemy. Move with your enemy. Understand your enemy. Live with your enemy. Be your enemy. Love your enemy.
Eventually there is no enemy.

Empathizing and understanding are very important but it would be wrong to assume that I just mean understanding how a person reasons. A person is made of values. A person reacts emotionally to what they value. If you see them get emotional about something you can define that thing as valuable to them. It is important to understand their values.
A person is also emotion and to many their emotion is of great value. When understanding them fully you have to value their emotions. See yourself through their eyes. Feel what they are feeling understand what they are angry or sad about. Feel and accept the value in it.
This is the most difficult part. If they value something so insignificant, how do you get past that? Like I said before, you are prioritizing their feelings not what they value. The significance of the cause is not important beyond what it can do for the individual. Imagine all the happiness you can make a person feel by providing them simple things. Imagine the joy they feel and make that joy your own. Let the joy consume you as it does the other person. Let yourself share in their love, in their pleasure. Imagine it. Make it grow. Make it tear inside of you and tear into your heart.

But a person is not just joy. A person is a mix of emotions. To know the person you must experience the worst of them as well as the best. Maybe they suffer a loss.
Feel their sadness and loneliness. Be them and then while them let it consume you. Let it empty all that you have inside you. Let it tear you apart and force tears from your eyes. Let yourself feel this and you will want nothing but to fill that hole inside of them. You will love them and you will not be alone and they will be somewhat feel filled. In turn you will be filled because you are them. Such is the blessing of suffering as one.

The individual is nature. You cannot just force it to change. You have to dance with it. You have to find the beauty in it. You have to move with it and love it or you will die an old tired man and forgotten.

**************

I changed my avatar to what is in my mind when I needed to separate from the world in my youth. I suppose others would recognize it as meditation and others disassociation but when I was young and needed to separate my consciousness from the emotions and the events of my surrounding I would picture this image(avatar) and I would go through the forms. I would feel the movement of my arms the shifting of my legs. The thoughtlessness. There was a supreme calmness and the wind would shift through the tree and through my body as I moved with it. The sword was my arm and extension of myself. The wind was a part of me as I moved. I was part of it. I was one with everything. I was calm. I was movement. I was everything. I was nothing. Then....In the real world, I was control. I was fearless. I was but thought and determination. I was the wind a steady strength and relentless.

I no longer use this 'meditation' except to separate myself from physical pain. I have little need for it.

 

[BigApplePi]

Strength and happiness is not achieved by facing your enemy. It is achieved by dancing with your enemy. Understanding your enemy. Move with your enemy. Understand your enemy. Live with your enemy. Be your enemy. Love your enemy.
Eventually there is no enemy.

Empathizing and understanding are very important but it would be wrong to assume that I just mean understanding how a person reasons. A person is made of values. A person reacts emotionally to what they value. If you see them get emotional about something you can define that thing as valuable to them. It is important to understand their values.
A person is also emotion and to many their emotion is of great value. When understanding them fully you have to value their emotions. See yourself through their eyes. Feel what they are feeling understand what they are angry or sad about. Feel and accept the value in it.
This is the most difficult part. If they value something so insignificant, how do you get past that? Like I said before, you are prioritizing their feelings not what they value. The significance of the cause is not important beyond what it can do for the individual. Imagine all the happiness you can make a person feel by providing them simple things. Imagine the joy they feel and make that joy your own. Let the joy consume you as it does the other person. Let yourself share in their love, in their pleasure. Imagine it. Make it grow. Make it tear inside of you and tear into your heart.

But a person is not just joy. A person is a mix of emotions. To know the person you must experience the worst of them as well as the best. Maybe they suffer a loss.
Feel their sadness and loneliness. Be them and then while them let it consume you. Let it empty all that you have inside you. Let it tear you apart and force tears from your eyes. Let yourself feel this and you will want nothing but to fill that hole inside of them. You will love them and you will not be alone and they will be somewhat feel filled. In turn you will be filled because you are them. Such is the blessing of suffering as one.

The individual is nature. You cannot just force it to change. You have to dance with it. You have to find the beauty in it.

Nice post Grayman. Something to aspire to.

 

[Variform]

It depends on your stance on ontology and free will. I tend to view willpower as a paradox, something that feels like you are in control. I am both my will and a product of my will. I will and am willed. I know that I do not know exactly the difference between by ego exercising its veto power over my will and my will expressing itself through my ego. (In this case: will = id = archetypes; Shopenhauer < Nietzsche < Freud < Jung.)

You just said that to make me fall in love with you.

 

[BigApplePi]

If empathy is so important, do you think that our main goal should be to understand others?

Hi TBerg. Did you get an answer to that question? I don't think the answer to that is necessarily yes. How did you find your experience with Grayman?

Anyway you can resume yourself as you were before. You may step out of yourself and then return. Does this make any sense? Are you still there ... I don't see you posting for a few days.

 

[Variform]

When it comes to people "rubblng off" on me, I try to make jokes that I think pertain to their situations and parrot their ways of talking about things.

I don't want to interfere but I just got a deja vu reading this, as I listen to 'Voulez Vous' by The Shirts.

I feel I remember reading on a forum listening to this. And it is this forum. I know because of the color scheme I picked, the gold black one. And the overall sens eof darkness it gives off.

Just saying...

 

[TBerg]

Hi TBerg. Did you get an answer to that question? I don't think the answer to that is necessarily yes. How did you find your experience with Grayman?

Anyway you can resume yourself as you were before. You may step out of yourself and then return. Does this make any sense? Are you still there ... I don't see you posting for a few days.

Sorry, everyone. I was gone and busy this weekend, and I have been a little sick. I am regaining my energy today. I hope to give a good response to the intricately considered post by Grayman. So far, his emotions seem to be more constructive and more centered than mine. I recognize the thoughts, but I do not experience the corresponding emotions as much these days.

 

[TBerg]

It is contentment, satisfaction, inner-calmness, but it is also purpose. How I felt when younger is best defined in the last paragraph after the asterix. Currently I am in a place between the meditation and the after affects of it. Calm but determined.

I am not certain how to define accurately what the madness of the world really is. The world is chaotic on the surface but once you see the pieces they all have a part and they all effect each other. The chaos is not physical it is not the world. It is in you. The world is but what it is needed to be to turn.

When I see nature I find nature to be the balance. A man comes along and he creates chaos. He builds a house and he creates rules and he fights against nature. Nature seeks to achieve balance again. It tries to reclaim the lawn. It tries to grow over the garden. It tries to bring back down the house. The man fights this. He pushes back. He spends his whole life pushing the dust back out off his floor, replacing the rotting boards on his deck, putting up new shingles, and weeding his garden. Nature keeps fighting back and the man stresses and feels anxious that he cannot keep things in order. He reaches an old age and he cannot keep the garden producing. The roof is leaking and the deck is broken. He dies a tired man. Over many years the house is gone and in its place lies the forest. It is as if the man never existed.

Strength and happiness is not achieved by facing your enemy. It is achieved by dancing with your enemy. Understanding your enemy. Move with your enemy. Understand your enemy. Live with your enemy. Be your enemy. Love your enemy.
Eventually there is no enemy.

Empathizing and understanding are very important but it would be wrong to assume that I just mean understanding how a person reasons. A person is made of values. A person reacts emotionally to what they value. If you see them get emotional about something you can define that thing as valuable to them. It is important to understand their values.
A person is also emotion and to many their emotion is of great value. When understanding them fully you have to value their emotions. See yourself through their eyes. Feel what they are feeling understand what they are angry or sad about. Feel and accept the value in it.
This is the most difficult part. If they value something so insignificant, how do you get past that? Like I said before, you are prioritizing their feelings not what they value. The significance of the cause is not important beyond what it can do for the individual. Imagine all the happiness you can make a person feel by providing them simple things. Imagine the joy they feel and make that joy your own. Let the joy consume you as it does the other person. Let yourself share in their love, in their pleasure. Imagine it. Make it grow. Make it tear inside of you and tear into your heart.

But a person is not just joy. A person is a mix of emotions. To know the person you must experience the worst of them as well as the best. Maybe they suffer a loss.
Feel their sadness and loneliness. Be them and then while them let it consume you. Let it empty all that you have inside you. Let it tear you apart and force tears from your eyes. Let yourself feel this and you will want nothing but to fill that hole inside of them. You will love them and you will not be alone and they will be somewhat feel filled. In turn you will be filled because you are them. Such is the blessing of suffering as one.

The individual is nature. You cannot just force it to change. You have to dance with it. You have to find the beauty in it. You have to move with it and love it or you will die an old tired man and forgotten.

**************

I changed my avatar to what is in my mind when I needed to separate from the world in my youth. I suppose others would recognize it as meditation and others disassociation but when I was young and needed to separate my consciousness from the emotions and the events of my surrounding I would picture this image(avatar) and I would go through the forms. I would feel the movement of my arms the shifting of my legs. The thoughtlessness. There was a supreme calmness and the wind would shift through the tree and through my body as I moved with it. The sword was my arm and extension of myself. The wind was a part of me as I moved. I was part of it. I was one with everything. I was calm. I was movement. I was everything. I was nothing. Then....In the real world, I was control. I was fearless. I was but thought and determination. I was the wind a steady strength and relentless.

I no longer use this 'meditation' except to separate myself from physical pain. I have little need for it.

I find the difficulty in my own experience is grounded in resentment and distrust the self and others. As you say, the chaos is palpable to the extent that this resentment infects relations. How does one understand the potential of greater heights without being resentful about the frustration of not being up there? I mean, so many things could be so much better if only people, including me, were better composed and disposed. Everyone eats unhealthy food, drinks mind-numbing alcohol, does not think about making life better for those around them, continues to avoid understanding other people, and will used language that keeps setting the stage for the recurrence of the same bad theme over and over again.

No one seems to regard social mores seriously, the social mores seem always to be corrupted by lack of integrity and self-interest, and no one seems to have virtue.

Also, when there is so much real madness around you, and I am talking about real dysfunction, it seems like the stress that you absorb by empathy cripples you and does not allow you to fulfill your potential for creative intelligence. I mean, if the world sometimes stultifies people by external means, then how is one to deal with this perceived dilemma? If so many things around you seem so insecure, then how can you focus on something that truly animates you? How do you find animation when you use so much of your psychological resources suppressing the perception of the threats around you? It is like when you suppress true despair, then you suppress true bliss as a necessary corollary.

When you describe your meditative practice, are you talking about meditating WHILE the threatening events are unfolding, or are you talking about doing it in a more controlled and peaceful environment? I have had bad luck with meditation these days. Some thought or emotion always seems to be able to come into my attentive focus.