Pmj's TWG/Mafia

[redbaron]

My gut reads Minu as scum.

Sinny's quick to +1 people's opinions when she'd normally insist on doing it all herself.

 

[redbaron]

Pretty sure you had a problem with me working by process of elimination in the previous games. (Cept for when we were both scum)

I didn't think it was viable but I've seen it work (and work well) multiple times now. It's a valid thing and besides that, I'm going to assume my issue was less to do with playing by process of elimination than it was the way you were doing it.

I know myself well enough to know that.

 

[Sinny91]

I'm just trying to keep all of my thoughts together. If I split things up I forget about them and in some cases forget entire people who are in the game, so I need the list present so I don't leave anyone out.

My personal commentary on it was probably a bit of an oversight to have posted. I'd originally made the list just so people could keep track of voting records (ie. it would make flip floppers apparent and could help catch some more blatant contradictions)

Fair enough. I think you've explained yourself well (under pressure).

I'm happy to move onto new meat.

I was supposed to be asleep ages ago.

One more cuppa, and then I'll be in the land of nod.

 

[Sinny91]

I didn't think it was viable but I've seen it work (and work well) multiple times now. It's a valid thing and besides that, I'm going to assume my issue was less to do with playing by process of elimination than it was the way you were doing it.

I know myself well enough to know that.

Nope, you precisely said that it was the wrong method, regardless of my conduct.

But now you've changed your mind, just like you've changed your style..

Hmm dumm.

 

[Helvete]

Okay, I'm wondering about RB now. Why are you giving out town stickers so easily? Honestly, my little hunk of pressure on Cheeseums could have just been opportunism. I could have made the exact same argument as a wolf....

...can it really be that easy? Cheeseumpuffs, RB, and Helvete? Have I just solved the game?

ERM no, its not that easy. You are wrong, try again.
I don't think you can town or scum read someone based on a single comment so sticker giving is probably s mere indication rather than alignment binding.

You're giving me green reads from your hounding of cheeseums and your utter lack of trust towards anything anyone has to say but that doesn't confirm you town.

 

[QuickTwist]

I'm not liking Yellow atm. Her pressuring Cheesumpuffs does in fact look like opportunism. that little tidbit about her solving the game does not bode well with me either. Pre-flip associations are a nono. In this game (this game specifically) the game is going to be solved with a combination of Night Actions and flips. I don't like the flippant remark that Yellow has solved the game already, even as a joke. It does essentially nothing. I haven't liked the stances that Yellow has made either. I don't really know who Yellow is serious about voting off at this point.

I am thinking cheesumpuffs is Town atm. I find that because of his IDGAF attitude. My guess (one I have found to be true for myself): Cheesum is not threatened by votes/wagons on him because he prolly knows that the game does not solely rely on him to win. I believe he and I would have the same reason for this, that we have been lynch bait and know that just because you die, doesn't mean its the end of the game.

I am Null on pretty much everyone else, but there is something that should be stated about redbaron. Helvets point on redbaron are decent. That said, I'm not sold on rb being scum at this point, but this mostly has to do with their unvote of Cheeseum. It would be very easy for redbaron to push Cheeseums lynch with knowing that cheeseum already has a few votes on him. Basically, it would be a more optimal strategy for rb to push a Cheesum lynch than to unvote him.

IDK if I will be around at EOD.

I'm going to:

Vote: Yellow

atm because I don't really see anyone really jumping out as Scum right now.

 

[redbaron]

Nope, you precisely said that it was the wrong method, regardless of my conduct.

But now you've changed your mind, just like you've changed your style..

Hmm dumm.

Yeah the way I play and my opinions on how to play are differ between my 1st and my 10th games. That's just so weird.

 

[Sinny91]

I don't trust QT's use of language. He sounds just like he did when he was scum.

Also like to note that because there are so few of us, in close proximity, the wolves are going to have to buddy/bus HARD.

 

[Sinny91]

Yeah the way I play and my opinions on how to play are differ between my 1st and my 10th games. That's just so weird.

Convenient, is the word I'd use.

 

[redbaron]

Also like to note that because there are so few of us, in close proximity, the wolves are going to have to buddy/bus HARD.

No not rly.

 

[redbaron]

Convenient, is the word I'd use.

So you asked for me to link the other games, did you actually bother looking or are you still basing this off the game we played 3 months ago compared to this one? If it's the latter I'm just going to end this interaction with:

Vote Sinny

 

[redbaron]

I'm tired, gonna go take a nap.

 

[Sinny91]

So you asked for me to link the other games, did you actually bother looking or are you still basing this off the game we played 3 months ago compared to this one? If it's the latter I'm just going to end this interaction with:

Vote Sinny

I was actually just about to open them.

As for "no not rly", what's your problem? Cat got your tongue? Usual Baron would never pass up an opportunity to talk about a tangent he might know a bit about.

Not going to educate us?

Am I basing what off a game three months ago?

Asking questions? I thought that was my objective. Ask shit, learn shit, vote off shit.

 

[QuickTwist]

I don't trust QT's use of language. He sounds just like he did when he was scum.

Also like to note that because there are so few of us, in close proximity, the wolves are going to have to buddy/bus HARD.

What do you mean my use of language?

What do you mean Scum are going to have to buddy/bus HARD? I don't know why you are putting emphasis on the word hard.

Why haven't you made your stances stronger than you usually do as Town? I have half a mind to think you are Scum for not being as strong in your stances this game as you have when you were Town. See how easy it is to meta read people?

Meta reads are garbage at this point. There is actually only a handful of people that I have played with for meta reads to mean anything at all. When you have 10+ games played with me, then we can talk about meta.

I do come across differently in Mafia than I do when I am not playing mafia, I'm not denying that. I just don't think it matters too much at this point.

 

[Sinny91]

Nah, you and Baron are both dodgy as fuck right now.

What I mean by hard is, given our numbers and ratio there is less chance for the wolves to slip by with little interaction happening among themselves, unlike in previous games.

I thought that would obvious, as it should be to both you and Baron.

I'll elaborate on your language when I feel I have enough examples to offer, should the language of yours of which I am suspicious of persist.

And before you question the viability of my methods, that's how I sniffed you out last game.

 

[QuickTwist]

Nah, you and Baron are both dodgy as fuck right now.

What I mean by hard is, given our numbers and ratio there is less chance for the wolves to slip by with little interaction happening among themselves, unlike in previous games.

I thought that would obvious, as it should be to both you and Baron.

I'll elaborate on your language when I feel I have enough examples to offer, should the language of yours of which I am suspicious of persist.

And before you question the viability of my methods, that's how I sniffed you out last game.

So because you have half a game played with me means that you have a Scum tell on me. That is reaching like you wouldn't believe.

What is your read on yellow?

 

[Sinny91]

So because you have half a game played with me means that you have a Scum tell on me. That is reaching like you wouldn't believe.

Is that what I said? No. So it's not what I meant. What I meant was what I said.

What is your read on yellow?[/QUOTE]

Seems Townly to me so far... I like her pressure on Cheesums, dunno why some of you are objecting to the pressure being upped.

 

[redbaron]

I was actually just about to open them.

As for "no not rly", what's your problem? Cat got your tongue? Usual Baron would never pass up an opportunity to talk about a tangent he might know a bit about.

Not going to educate us?

Am I basing what off a game three months ago?

Asking questions? I thought that was my objective. Ask shit, learn shit, vote off shit.

The problem is discussing scum strategy is stupid because it either gives them ideas or lets them create wifom around the strategies people talk about.

 

[redbaron]

So no I'm not gonna elaborate on why the thing you think is obvious is actually not obvious right now.

 

[Sinny91]

My gut reads Minu as scum.

Sinny's quick to +1 people's opinions when she'd normally insist on doing it all herself.

Sinny has only +1 one persons single post.

So what's with the unnecessary plurals?

You seem really unhelpful this time around Baron.

So are you advocating that we don't discuss potential scum strategies?

Seems counter productive to me.

 

[redbaron]

It's like townplay 101 that you don't discuss scum strategy.

 

[Sinny91]

It's like townplay 101 that you don't discuss scum strategy.

Really, because I read all the 101's and didn't read that anywhere.

Anyway, I thought Redfaggot was taking his afternoon nap after his glass of warm milk.

 

[QuickTwist]

Sinny has only +1 one persons single post.

So what's with the unnecessary plurals?

You seem really unhelpful this time around Baron.

So are you advocating that we don't discuss potential scum strategies?

Seems counter productive to me.

How does talking about Scum strategies help Town? Talking about what Town should do is fine, but talking about what Scum should do should not be done.

I'm not liking such little activity this game. We should have 2-3 times the amount of posts.

Sinny is gung ho like I expect her to be recently. She's wrong, but what I expect nonetheless.

I'll just repeat this, cuz she hasn't answered yet.

Sinny, what is your read on yellow?

 

[redbaron]

Gotta pick someone up. Discussing scum strategy for them is generally just frowned upon. It makes sense for the same reason that over-explaining why you townread your townreads just gives scum easy patterns to play within.

You're really not trying to find scum right now, you're just kicking up dust around inconsequential things. The entirety of your scumhunting is like, "I saw this person do this once" - that's not scumhunting, that'a fake hunting.

 

[Sinny91]

How does talking about Scum strategies help Town? Talking about what Town should do is fine, but talking about what Scum should do should not be done.

Why?

I'm not liking such little activity this game. We should have 2-3 times the amount of posts.

Inconsequential. We get what we're given.

Sinny is gung ho like I expect her to be recently.

What does that even mean?

She's wrong, but what I expect nonetheless.

I'll just repeat this, cuz she hasn't answered yet.

Sinny, what is your read on yellow?

You're wrong, but what I expect none the less.

Open your eye's and re-read.

 

[Sinny91]

Gotta pick someone up. Discussing scum strategy for them is generally just frowned upon. It makes sense for the same reason that over-explaining why you townread your townreads just gives scum easy patterns to play within.

You're really not trying to find scum right now, you're just kicking up dust around inconsequential things. The entirety of your scumhunting is like, "I saw this person do this once" - that's not scumhunting, that'a fake hunting.

Lol, if you say so, right?

What exactly are you doing to scum hunt? Other than trying to deter me from my scum hunt.

 

[QuickTwist]

Is that what I said? No. So it's not what I meant. What I meant was what I said.

Seems Townly to me so far... I like her pressure on Cheesums, dunno why some of you are objecting to the pressure being upped.

OK, lets try this approach:
You said you sniffed me out last game by what I presume to be because of my language. I am assuming what you mean by sniffing me out to mean you thought I was scum. So I guess I am just making one huge assumption that you were Scum reading me last game because of the language I was using. You also state that you have a Scum read on me this game, or am I just assuming that as well? I take you saying "QT can't be trusted" to mean that you are Scum reading me. If you mean that I can't be trusted because I haven't proven that I can be trusted, then you really need to clarify that.

 

[Helvete]

What about spaceclog? Pmj how long are you allowing before a replacement is found?

 

[QuickTwist]

Why?

I asked you first, go ahead and answer.

Inconsequential. We get what we're given.

Sure, if you just want to keep things the same. What if you want to spur on activity? IDK if it was you that said this or not, but someone was talking about keeping Scum from skirting by by not participating. So I'm pretty sure bringing it to Town's attention that they need to do shit is not a bad idea.

What does that even mean?

It means when you play you should be playing like you are sure of yourself. When you act like you are not sure, it is in conflict with what I know of your personality so its a dead giveaway that you are Scum.

You're wrong, but what I expect none the less.

Open your eye's and re-read.

You are being cryptic, which is WIFOM. I am not a mind reader. Either explain what you mean or drop this point.

 

[PmjPmj]

End of Day:
http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20160807T1441&p0=:&msg=End+of+Day+1&font=cursive

Stiffleg will be replaced after today if he doesn't make an appearance. One has to give a gent the benefit of the doubt.

If anyone knows how to get hold of him by means other than INTPf, please do so.

 

[Helvete]

Is that what I said? No. So it's not what I meant. What I meant was what I said.

What is your read on yellow?

Seems Townly to me so far... I like her pressure on Cheesums, dunno why some of you are objecting to the pressure being upped.[/QUOTE]


You said that rb and qt are being dodgy as fuck, apart from pressuring you, then why exactly? Seems like a direct contradiction to this post about town reading yellow due to her pressuring.

 

[Helvete]

Woah that qoute fucked up, the part that didn't quote properly is the post I was referring to, not the above quote

 

[redbaron]

QT's scumreading Yellow and Townreading Sinny. Total opposite of me: what gives QT? If you townread me, why are we disagreeing here?

 

[QuickTwist]

QT's scumreading Yellow and Townreading Sinny. Total opposite of me: what gives QT? If you townread me, why are we disagreeing here?

Where have I stated that Sinny is a Town read of mine? I haven't. At this point Sinny is only a very slight Town read right now, but i think that might be sorted rather soon granted Sinny actually responds to what I have asked her.

I think Yellow is our best bet to lynch Scum today, yes. I would rather Lynch Yellow than have a no lynch at this point. Pretty much everything Yellow has done has seemed "off" to me. I'm not super sure Yellow is Scum at this point, but given that I think its best to lynch her rather than a no lynch shows you where I'm at.

Finally, I made this post elsewhere that I am going to Quote now:

I don't have to agree with everything a Town read says for them to be a Town read. I don't have to agree with anything they say for me to Town read them in theory. All I have to do is have rational for why that player is Town and I don't even provide that all the time for my Town reads. Scum reads are likewise - I don't have to disagree with everything they say or really anything as long as I have a basis for why that player is Scum. Admittedly, you need more backing for your Scum reads than your Town reads if you actually want to get your Scum reads lynched.

Found in this post: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=8094112#p8094112

 

[QuickTwist]

I'm giving Sinny a half hour to respond to me or I am voting them. I believe I have caught Sinny in a lie, so if Sinny doesn't respond I will make my case on them, Vote them and go to bed.

 

[redbaron]

Where have I stated that Sinny is a Town read of mine? I haven't. At this point Sinny is only a very slight Town read.

???

You said above she's doing what you expect as well. I mean, that's basically saying she's being townish yes?

 

[QuickTwist]

???

You said above she's doing what you expect as well. I mean, that's basically saying she's being townish yes?

Right, but the difference is that if she isn't being completely stubborn it is a dead giveaway that she is Scum. Its not a correlation coefficient that because She is acting how I expect means that she has to be Town. Scum are trying to act like they are Town.

Like I said, I think I caught Sinny in a lie where there is no reason to lie. I think you lynch that shit. That's why if Sinny doesn't return pretty damn soon I will be voting for her. It may not be a rock solid case, but it WILL be the best we have at this point. There is this thing: Lynch all liars. If she doesn't respond soon she is a liar.

 

[redbaron]

Fine with that anyway since her asking me for games then apparently not even reading is fake as fuck to me. Like pretending she's "reading" my meta when she's obviously not because she got it wrong.

 

[Minuend]

Just woke up, so collected thoughts so far:

Yellow seems town to me so far. Just not seeing behavior that makes me think she's being deceiving. RB seems his usual self as well. Both seems town to me. And I'm not convinced about cheesepuffs. He seems his usual floaty self as well.

Helvete seems overconfident and challenging, like he knows he'll be able to get away with it (being scum). Idk, my gut says scum. The way he writes comes off as sneaky to me.

QT and sinny could be either. QT seems a bit more town to me than not at this point though

 

[QuickTwist]

Fine with that anyway since her asking me for games then apparently not even reading is fake as fuck to me. Like pretending she's "reading" my meta when she's obviously not because she got it wrong.

That is the EXACT reason why she is lying. She was lying that she was reading through your games. She said she was going to bed. So when she said she was "just about to open them" engage us for a short while and go to bed is not only counterintuitive, but outright lying that she was going to read them at that moment. It is counter intuitive because if she would've said she was going to read them later, she very well could have said so, but she said she was going to do that right then and there. That is a lie that I think Sinny is unaware of. She has a good chance at being Scum because she is making promises that she is not keeping which is a big red flag, and she has an even bigger chance of being detrimental to Town because if she is lying about small things, she is going to lie about big things as well.

Vote: Sinny

 

[Minuend]

Sinny did reply to the yellow read btw, unless the quote error is confusing me:

http://intpforum.com/showpost.php?p=542836&postcount=117

Is that what I said? No. So it's not what I meant. What I meant was what I said.

What is your read on yellow?/quote]

Seems Townly to me so far... I like her pressure on Cheesums, dunno why some of you are objecting to the pressure being upped.

But QT's reasoning about sinny makes sense to me. The lack of a strong sinny presence (as in "attitude", not number of posts) from the beginning seemed a bit unusual (though not immediately enough to make me strongly suspicious).

At this rate, my vote is going toward sinny as well.

/vote sinny

 

[PmjPmj]

Current Votes:

Sinny - 3 (Minu, RB & QT)
RB - 1 (Helv)
Spacelobster - 1 (Cheesum)
Helv - 1 (Sinny)
Cheesum - 1 (Yellow)

Unless maths fail, Sinny is currently at risk of being hung.

(we all knew she was hiding something).

 

[Sinny91]

I'm giving Sinny a half hour to respond to me or I am voting them.

English is your first language isn't it? Why do you keep fucking up your pronouns? I am a 'her' not a 'them', or a 'their'.

I believe I have caught Sinny in a lie, so if Sinny doesn't respond I will make my case on them, Vote them and go to bed.

If you caught me out in a lie then you should come straight out with it.

Rather than pussy footing about.

Sinny has only +1 one persons single post.

So what's with the unnecessary plurals?

No answer?

You are being cryptic, which is WIFOM. I am not a mind reader. Either explain what you mean or drop this point.

Dude, you said that I hadn't answered your question about Yellow, which in fact I had. So once again, I'm going to tell you to go back and use your bloody eye ballz. No WIFOM, no bullshit, just QuickTwist unable to read or comprehend, apparently.

You said that rb and qt are being dodgy as fuck, apart from pressuring you, then why exactly? Seems like a direct contradiction to this post about town reading yellow due to her pressuring.

Because of the dodgy behavior I'll be touching upon in this post.

QT's scumreading Yellow and Townreading Sinny. Total opposite of me: what gives QT? If you townread me, why are we disagreeing here?

What's your scum case one me?

Where have I stated that Sinny is a Town read of mine? I haven't. At this point Sinny is only a very slight Town read right now, but i think that might be sorted rather soon granted Sinny actually responds to what I have asked her.

Patience is a virtue.

I think Yellow is our best bet to lynch Scum today, yes.

Scum would say that.

I would rather Lynch Yellow than have a no lynch at this point.

Pretty much everything Yellow has done has seemed "off" to me.

I'm not super sure Yellow is Scum at this point, but given that I think its best to lynch her rather than a no lynch shows you where I'm at.

Scum looking to stir the pot.

Right, but the difference is that if she isn't being completely stubborn it is a dead giveaway that she is Scum.

What am I supposed to be being stubborn in regards to? You utter phallus.

Its not a correlation coefficient that because She is acting how I expect means that she has to be Town. Scum are trying to act like they are Town.

Like I said, I think I caught Sinny in a lie where there is no reason to lie.

What lie is that?

I think you lynch that shit. That's why if Sinny doesn't return pretty damn soon I will be voting for her.

Technically Sinny pulled an all nighter and should be snoozing by now, I did advise that I'd be asleep, and then you go and try to murder me in my sleep? Pussyhole.

It may not be a rock solid case

Fucking far from it.

, but it WILL be the best we have at this point.

Is that a certainty? Repeat a lie often enough until they believe it's true? Your Nazi propaganda don't wash with me.

There is this thing: Lynch all liars. If she doesn't respond soon she is a liar.

Logical fallacy, obviously. I sincerely hope everybody else is keeping track of QT fallacies.

So what is this lie that QuickTwist and Redbaron are harrrping on about?

That I 'promised' to read Barons other mafia games immediately?

That is far removed from what I actually wrote which is:

I was actually just about to open them.

Where is the lie?

So no I'm not gonna elaborate on why the thing you think is obvious is actually not obvious right now.

Well, you aren't elaborating on much , apart from QT's false conclusions.
One has to wonder whyyy.

Like I said, I think I caught Sinny in a lie where there is no reason to lie. I think you lynch that shit. That's why if Sinny doesn't return pretty damn soon I will be voting for her. It may not be a rock solid case, but it WILL be the best we have at this point. There is this thing: Lynch all liars. If she doesn't respond soon she is a liar.

What lies??

Fine with that anyway since her asking me for games then apparently not even reading is fake as fuck to me. Like pretending she's "reading" my meta when she's obviously not because she got it wrong.

What are you basing this bullshit on? lol

Can you see what I'm doing? Do you actually know what I'm doing?

I think not.


Anyway, apart from that, my wagon is obviously being engineered by scum.

Town to the rescue please.

 

[Sinny91]

Unvote Helvete.

Vote Redbaron.

I believe RB and QT to be scum, I think there is more to be gained if RB flips first.

 

[Minuend]

I agree the case against you isn't strong, sinny. But nothing has convinced me I should suspect RB or QT as scum. Maybe they will turn out to be so later, but right now I'm not seeing it.

What do you think about Helvete?

 

[Sinny91]

I agree the case against you isn't strong, sinny. But nothing has convinced me I should suspect RB or QT as scum. Maybe they will turn out to be so later, but right now I'm not seeing it.

What do you think about Helvete?

I've no major causes for concern.

It doesn't wash with me that RB and QT's behavior isn't suspicious.

It fucking is.

 

[cheese]

Ok, I'm here for a bit. Just gonna post general impressions because I have to get work done. I'd forgotten day cycle was 24 hours and I'm pressed for time.

Sinny seems normal to me. Got all up in arms and italicised shit.
QT seems teachery, which made me totally not suspect him in last game (in spectator thread), but iirc he was scum. I don't like the way he's digging into Sinny - makes no sense to me. However, I've learnt from the spectator thread that I just don't agree with the way most other people think in this game.
RB seems about normal with a bit of off-ness. I think I skimmed his long posts while out so I might've missed stuff.
Cheeseumpuffs: Ok, I see this dude constantly misread everywhere and it pisses me off. He acts like a typical Ne dom - all vague impressions, hunches, and playfulness that is often misinterpreted as intentionally deceptive. That is just how we work! Almost everything that's levelled at him I could easily explain as perfectly natural resulting from my own thought processes. I don't read anything sus in him so far, whereas imo there's a long track record of Puffs (as well as Ne-dom types in general) being misread.
Yellow: She seemed really scummy to me last game, and I was wrong. She's pushing just as hard this game, and seems just as scummy. I assume she's being good town and/or I can't read her.
Helvete: Is super exuberant. Dunno what this means. We all basically missed him in spectator thread cos he seemed so normal. He seems normal and jokey now too but much more so?
Minuend: Seems perfectly fine. However, I'm pretty sure I'd be unable to read her. She's just so level-headed/neutral no matter what.

(Haha, I *did* cover everyone! I kept thinking I must've missed some but there are just so few players. Plus shapelog's not here.)

So yeah, I've got nothing solid. No one stands out particularly to me, just argument styles that grate. It's completely against the grain for me to get hung up on details and burrow into people based on tiny little things. I know that's how you catch people but it's also how you get tunnel-vision.

Oh fuck just remembered there are 3 wolves. That seems ridiculously unbalanced. Also that makes most of what I've said even more useless since basically no one looks suspicious, and at least 2 of you *are* wolves, quite possibly 3 (if Shapelog's town).

Ok so I'm catching up on the most recent posts atm. I agree, QT and RB pushing on Sinny like that makes no sense. What lie? But then, this is how RB tends to operate in general. Accuses people of stuff when imo they're actually being perfectly normal and reasonable humans, because he thinks in very black and white terms and sees things in an objective system of logic that most people don't actually use. (No offence RB, this is just how I read you. It's a xxTJ style of operating.)

QT on the other hand seems a bit strange, pushing so hard. I also think we should be pretty cautious about lynching (I figure him saying her 'lie' thing is the best case we've got is just him pushing for more info, but lynching based on something that doesn't even make sense to me worries me). 6 against 3 isn't very good odds; we can't really afford mislynches.

I'm gonna try to do a more thorough read-through tomorrow and post something of more substance. I've barely picked out possible connections and tells. I'm really trying to avoid doing any work tonight but I know I have to so I have to go for now.

 

[QuickTwist]

Sinny,

Did you or did you not go through red barons games? If you did, what did you learn?

 

[Sinny91]

Sinny,

Did you or did you not go through red barons games? If you did, what did you learn?

Why don't you account for your lies, before you ask anything of me.
You scum.

 

[cheese]

OK I'm still around (goddammit).

I had a look over the supposed 'lie' incident. The way I read it, Sinny's reason for asking for links was so that RB could back up his claim that he was playing in multiple other games, not that she could check for sure if he'd changed his playing style. It's more like testing whether someone can back up what they're saying rather than going and looking for themselves in depth.

It's like when you ask someone to cite studies. Most people ask just to check the other person is willing to do the work, not to actually do the work in checking themselves.

This whole 'it's a lie' thing just seems retarded the more I think about it. But it's just as likely the result of two incompatible thinking styles clashing.

Aargh getting frustrated with this game/not being able to be here on this game guilt-free.