NT's - Superior Beings?

[Toad]

The MBTI tests personality types, not actual intelligence. But it does seem that the majority of intellects in society are NT's.

I am not saying we are superior beings! SO PLEASE do not take this thread as egotistical. I am just stating facts and am wondering what you guys think. I do not actually think that NT's are superior beings. The title is just a way to get your guys' attention. There is also a question mark at the end of it. I understand that every type has their role in society.

It seems that NT's have designed and built most of this world. However, we are such a small percentage of the overall population (somewhere between 10-15% I believe). Why is it that our type are so few in this world? Why would evolution leave so few of us? Maybe we are not all that superior. If evolution deemed us unfit, maybe that is why there is so few of us. But our society is becoming more and more technological. Do you guys think NT's will be the majority population in the future?

Maybe, NT's are the next stage in evolution. When I think of aliens, I see them as emotionless logical and scientific. Maybe our society will one day evolve into this type.

 

[Toad]

Do you guys think that NT's may have a higher rate of success than other types?

 

[flow]

Ahh, I've always wanted to start a thread saying something like, 'INTPS smartest personality type?', but never had the balls (this thread feels similarly minded). I think as far as the need for invention, NTs provide the bulk of the work. However, another major need in human society is the ability to get along with others. We need NFs for such important work, and I can't imagine my worth as an inventive ideas personality type any more necessary than the work that people like Gandhi or Martin Luther King provide. I'd argue that Intuitive's are superior beings, but I have trouble seeing the worth in Sensory types. Does that make me a Sensist? Urmm..

 

[Decaf]

Do you guys think that NT's may have a higher rate of success than other types?

Depends on what you mean by success. Gandhi was an NF and had spectacular success, but was never wealthy. Studies show that those who extravert thinking as either dominant or auxiliary (ESTJ, ISTJ, ENTJ, INTJ) tend to be the most interested and successful entrepreneurs.

Success, like intelligence, is far too vague a concept to draw good comparisons.

 

[Toad]

Depends on what you mean by success. Gandhi was an NF and had spectacular success, but was never wealthy. Studies show that those who extravert thinking as either dominant or auxiliary (ESTJ, ISTJ, ENTJ, INTJ) tend to be the most interested and successful entrepreneurs.

Success, like intelligence, is far too vague a concept to draw good comparisons.

You are so good at explaining stuff Decaf. You are now in my handful of people I respect on this forum.

 

[flow]

Damn you Decaf! Gandhi was MY EXAMPLE.

 

[Decaf]

Thanks Toad

Damn you Decaf! Gandhi was MY EXAMPLE.

Not my fault you ninja'd me

 

[Agent Intellect]

i'd say that the types are different, not better or worse. NT's i'd say use a lot more of the rational, logical part of the brain, while others (XSXJ's in particular) use more of the emotional, or intuitive (not the same definition as in mbti) part of the brain. i touched on this in a different thread a while back. i know for me, often when faced with something that requires quick or urgent decision making, i either become an idiot or simply freeze up, because i haven't had enough time to hash things out in my reasoning center yet. i'm no good at conversation, because i can't come up with witty retorts without first mulling it over in my head, while other people (most likely those with extraverted judging functions) are better at formulating coherent thoughts to other people without having to think about it.

to me, its like saying humans are "superior" to other animals. the fact that someone knows how to play the piano or do their times tables isn't going to save them in the african savannah, but a lion will have a much easier time, even though it is considered beneath us. different people, like different animals, are suited to their own various things.

 

[Beat Mango]

i'd say that the types are different, not better or worse. NT's i'd say use a lot more of the rational, logical part of the brain, while others (XSXJ's in particular) use more of the emotional, or intuitive (not the same definition as in mbti) part of the brain. i touched on this in a different thread a while back. i know for me, often when faced with something that requires quick or urgent decision making, i either become an idiot or simply freeze up, because i haven't had enough time to hash things out in my reasoning center yet. i'm no good at conversation, because i can't come up with witty retorts without first mulling it over in my head, while other people (most likely those with extraverted judging functions) are better at formulating coherent thoughts to other people without having to think about it.

to me, its like saying humans are "superior" to other animals. the fact that someone knows how to play the piano or do their times tables isn't going to save them in the african savannah, but a lion will have a much easier time, even though it is considered beneath us. different people, like different animals, are suited to their own various things.

Are you one to argue, also, that garbage collectors are as important as doctors?

You might think man and beast are equal but tell that to the cow or chicken who is bred for our consumption. We're on top of the food chain and we can infer from that that we're superior, at least in the current context.

 

[walfin]

Why do NTs comprise 10% of the population?

Reproductive success!=Material "success"

e.g. Newton, Leibniz, all the other unmarried childless mathematicians, scientists, philosophers (Einstein being the exception rather than the rule)
Either they were childless by choice (possibly NTs were that way even then) or there was some truth to the high-school-dork image.

I'm glad INTPs comprise such a teensy weensy slice of the population though. If everyone was INTP very little work would actually get done (although most people would get along very well).

Are you one to argue, also, that garbage collectors are as important as doctors

Meh. Can you imagine a garbage collector strike? The filth? The disease? The squalor?

Though I'd rather robotic garbage collectors be used instead. Don't think most garbage collectors like their job all that much.

 

[Toad]

Are you one to argue, also, that garbage collectors are as important as doctors?

You might think man and beast are equal but tell that to the cow or chicken who is bred for our consumption. We're on top of the food chain and we can infer from that that we're superior, at least in the current context.

So are you saying that NT's are superior?

NT's in general, not just INTP's. INTP's are probably the most inferior,imo, of the NT's.

 

[flow]

WHAT!? Charles Darwin, Socrates, Carl Jung, Einstein?! Inferior? It's those damn INTJs that are worthless.

 

[Toad]

LoL...Yes, but INTJ's are able to kill us. Light vs. L

 

[Devercia]

"INTP's are probably the most inferior,imo, of the NT's."

huh? based on what? importance to society? if thats the case any IxxP would be, but thats a bit naive in my opinion. Personally, I think the INTP has more potential for intellectual focus than the other NTs. The Es are distracted with the world, and the Js are split between thinking and doing.

"Are you one to argue, also, that garbage collectors are as important as doctors? "

I know its not exactly what you said, but I am genuinly hard pressed to make a descision between medical care and sanitation. The usefulness of one is inversly proportional to the presence of the other.

"You might think man and beast are equal but tell that to the cow or chicken who is bred for our consumption. We're on top of the food chain and we can infer from that that we're superior, at least in the current context."

Here, you are equating importence to power. I would say the SJs of the world have the most power, and despite what they think, I would not deem them important for more than getting the menial but necessary tedium of humanity done with. Frankly, as much as I despise their worldview and sociology, I glad they are around so I don't have to be the garbage man.

 

[Beat Mango]

So are you saying that NT's are superior?

I would say they're capable of more. They're the brains behind the operation. Yes, the people who carry out the operation are very crucial, but ultimately they are just playing the game, not directing it.

Meh. Can you imagine a garbage collector strike? The filth? The disease? The squalor?

Ok I don't know if you're being serious, but: I would rather have garbage outside my house with no garbage collector to pick it up than a wound or illness without a doctor to attend to it.

 

[Toad]

^^This is why I respect Mango~!

Anyways, I don't like SJ's either...I think they are way too narrow minded and bossy.

 

[Beat Mango]

"Are you one to argue, also, that garbage collectors are as important as doctors? "

I know its not exactly what you said, but I am genuinly hard pressed to make a descision between medical care and sanitation. The usefulness of one is inversly proportional to the presence of the other.

Do you play chess? You sound like the type of person would argue that a queen is no more valuable than a pawn.

And you're saying that we can't do without animals in the food chain, therefore they are as important as us. Well, the key difference is, their role in the food chain is to serve us. That's fairly significant imo. Yes they are important, but only as our servants (inferiors), which is the original topic of this thread - are they inferior.

 

[Toad]

Wow. So are you saying that NT's run the show, while the rest of the world are our pawns that do our bidding? Strong statements made...I respect that.

 

[walfin]

Respect the aged, O animals of the jungle!

Sometimes I wonder whether the cockroaches view us as pawns who's only purpose in life is to supply them with trash to eat. Then I wonder if the cockroaches could wonder about how we feel and try to look at the world through our eyes.

Nope. Probably not. Brain too small.

Situation's not the same with the SJs though. We view them as pawns, they might view us as pawns, useful only in doing stuff they don't really like doing (like, I dunno, calculus?).

 

[Beat Mango]

Respect the aged, O animals of the jungle!

Sometimes I wonder whether the cockroaches view us as pawns who's only purpose in life is to supply them with trash to eat. Then I wonder if the cockroaches could wonder about how we feel and try to look at the world through our eyes.

Nope. Probably not. Brain too small.

Situation's not the same with the SJs though. We view them as pawns, they might view us as pawns, useful only in doing stuff they don't really like doing (like, I dunno, calculus?).

The difference is we see them as people with strengths that are different to ours, but they don't extend us the same courtesy. They just see us as weird or inept S's (you can tell this by the jobs they give us)

 

[Toad]

Yea, it does seem that S types rarely try to understand us as much as we can understand them.

 

[Enne]

Wow. So are you saying that NT's run the show, while the rest of the world are our pawns that do our bidding? Strong statements made...I respect that.

Pretty much. That's why the percentage split is the way it is. Too many cooks spoil the soup. Gotta have lots of waiters, too.

 

[Enne]

Yea, it does seem that S types rarely try to understand us as much as we can understand them.

Necessity. They don't have to; the world as it is is preoriented to suit them. Just like most people who don't experience some form of depression don't really have that urge to grow / look closely at their lives, most sensorally oriented people would have no need to relate to an N minority.

 

[Toad]

Wow I can't believe how egotistical we are. If I were to bring this up with regular people, they would crucify me. lol

Enne, are you trying to get ur post count up? U have been double posting like crazy lol

 

[walfin]

Actually, you know what, Mango, you're probably right.

Much as I know (rationally) that cognitive processes differ from person to person I can't help but forget that sometimes. And I imagine how people would think, forgetting that they're not all INTPs.

 

[Devercia]

Do you play chess? You sound like the type of person would argue that a queen is no more valuable than a pawn.

You've managed to put quite a few words in my mouth. Your chess example is boiling them down to individual pieces, rather than the collective role, which is why my words changed them to "sanitation" instead of "garbage men." Its much easier to make a garbage man than a doctor, but the collective roles of both are important.

To build upon your analogy with the words I chose to use, it would be better to ask "Would you rather have your queen, or all 8 of your pawns?"

And you're saying that we can't do without animals in the food chain, therefore they are as important as us. Well, the key difference is, their role in the food chain is to serve us. That's fairly significant imo. Yes they are important, but only as our servants (inferiors), which is the original topic of this thread - are they inferior.

Though I did quote the animal analogy, I did not mention it in my point. To point out the hole, Humans generally don't eat lions, but they do eat us. Does that make them more important? Sure, a human can kill a lion, but they don't eat them, or at least actively seek to. That is a flaw of the animal analogy, not my point.

Generally, you seem to be saying that those with more power are more important. Often those with great power are inconsequential. To me, whats most important is what would be most disastrous to lose. Among other things, the queen is more important, because there is only one. Likewise, the pawns are less important, because there are eight. Collectively, the queen is not so important, but the pawns are.

Whats superior is whats important IMO or what has more potential, not what wields authority, or wealth, or eats the other. rarity and effort of development are considerations, but ones my words implied were ignored.

Yea, it does seem that S types rarely try to understand us as much as we can understand them.

My theory is that mostlikely because they have stopped or chosen to specialize in the third stage of cognitive development. Ns move on or specialize in the 4th. I have heard Piaget said most people don't attain the 4th stage.

Wow. So are you saying that NT's run the show, while the rest of the world are our pawns that do our bidding? Strong statements made...I respect that.

Pretty much. That's why the percentage split is the way it is. Too many cooks spoil the soup. Gotta have lots of waiters, too.

I would disagree here aswell. The brains behind the operation is not the will behind wills. As I am sure you are aware, the leader is often not the brains of the operation, nor do the brains make many decisions. Influence they may have, but not necessarily authority. Traditionally, the brains give advice, but the leaders have to want to listen, and generally, the followers only listen to the leader.



(Edits, lots of em.)

 

[Toad]

What are the 4 stages of cognitive development? That sounds interesting.

Edit: Nvm, I just read it on wiki.

 

[echoplex]

The other types are needed for breeding! Our lack of S and F probably make us the most unlikely to breed.

Plus, you could say that if our ideas built the world, our sheer numbers don't matter much. Truly superior ideas spread fast and don't need many people to create them. Just one person can create one idea that affects millions of people. So a successful society, in theory, only needs a few really good intellectuals to make the good ideas, a few more people to boldly voice those ideas (EJ), and waaaay more people to physically deliver the fruits of those ideas (S). Meanwhile, society will also need people to entertain everyone (SP), and many more people to emotionally nurture those around them (FJ).

I'm sure there are other important roles I'm forgetting.

 

[Devercia]

If I gave a link, this post will be moderated. Wiki Piaget cognitive.

Note that I edited the hell out of my previous post.

 

[Toad]

Yes Echo, I believe you are right.

If society had evolved with NT's being the majority, then we would be a society filled with ideas but without the realization of any ideas.

 

[Devercia]

I would also question the role of evolution in the lack of numbers. I cant point out a flaw in the statement that NTs may breed less. However, evolution is based on breeding and survival until that event as well as nurturing young till adulthood. Likewise, it does not have the power to direct a species to its most efficient make up, whether physically or in what constitutes its collective numbers, it merely limits what does not work so well in breeding and survival. To suggest otherwise would imply some sort of intelligence behind it (God?).

Something tells me that a NT heavy society would not die off more or breed significantly less or than the current SJ dominant society.

I propose that the numbers are merely based on the laws of probability. personality is based in the brain, as such, I argue that the NT brain is more complex, and therefore, less likely to develope. The environment for it to develope may also be a rare set of circumstances.

 

[saffyangelis]

LoL...Yes, but INTJ's are able to kill us. Light vs. L

Just I'm glad INTPs comprise such a teensy weensy slice of the population though. If everyone was INTP very little work would actually get done (although most people would get along very well).picking up on this because I had a conversation about it with Zenman yesterday on the IRC,

What makes you think Light is INTJ? I thought ENTJ personally

ENTJs have a natural tendency to marshall and direct. This may be expressed with the charm and finesse of a world leader or with the insensitivity of a cult leader.
...
ENTJs are natural born leaders. They live in a world of possibilities where they see all sorts challenges to be surmounted, and they want to be the ones responsible for surmounting them.
...
There is not much room for error in the world of the ENTJ. They dislike to see mistakes repeated, and have no patience with inefficiency.
...
ENTJs are very forceful, decisive individuals. They make decisions quickly, and are quick to verbalize their opinions and decisions to the rest of the world.
...
The are assertive, innovative, long-range thinkers with an excellent ability to translate theories and possibilities into solid plans of action.

and so on is why I thought he was ENTJ =P

/derailing

 

[Toad]

Well it seemed that even though Light was very popular, it was all an act. I always thought he seemed to enjoy being more alone.

 

[saffyangelis]

But think out of the INTJs you know, (I only know one confirmed INTJ, so I could be way off here though) and could you imagine them managing to have about six girls on the go at once? Plus managing to manipulate so many people (the task force and others) into following them?

And Innocent Light seems a lot more idealistic than an INTJ is, and the death note can't change personality, I think =P

Sorry for any spoilers people!

 

[LucielaMinerva]

Why is it that our type are so few in this world?

cause if EVERYONE wanted to make plans, then who the HECK would be doing the building?

 

[LucielaMinerva]

i'd say that the types are different, not better or worse. NT's i'd say use a lot more of the rational, logical part of the brain, while others (XSXJ's in particular) use more of the emotional, or intuitive (not the same definition as in mbti) part of the brain. i touched on this in a different thread a while back. i know for me, often when faced with something that requires quick or urgent decision making, i either become an idiot or simply freeze up, because i haven't had enough time to hash things out in my reasoning center yet. i'm no good at conversation, because i can't come up with witty retorts without first mulling it over in my head, while other people (most likely those with extraverted judging functions) are better at formulating coherent thoughts to other people without having to think about it.

to me, its like saying humans are "superior" to other animals. the fact that someone knows how to play the piano or do their times tables isn't going to save them in the african savannah, but a lion will have a much easier time, even though it is considered beneath us. different people, like different animals, are suited to their own various things.

I agree with this. The term "better" is a relative notion. Before we even begin to start comparison, we have to have something to compare to.

What common ground does an INTJ and an ISFP have to allow the statement "INTJs are better than ISFPs" hold true? At the most, when we are dealing with a logical problem, because the INTJ's functions are better suited to handle a logical problem more effectively and objectively than an ISFP's.

But if we want to compare which person is better, then it's going to take a heck load of other considerations before making judgements. It also essentially means that we are saying that a particular personality is significantly "better" than another type. Does that mean people who HAVE that personality are always "better" (again, relative term) than others who do not?

Quite impossible to judge, I say.

 

[Toad]

Well Luciela, if you read the previous posts it seems that most of the people who posted a reply seems to think that NT's ARE better than the rest. LoL.

 

[LucielaMinerva]

Well Luciela, if you read the previous posts it seems that most of the people who posted a reply seems to think that NT's ARE better than the rest. LoL.

They are entitled to their opinion. If I wanted to stroke my own ego now, I would agree with them, but I CAN explain why they feel that way- like I mentioned; "betterness" is a relative term- and it all lies in WHAT it is relative to.

I presume that most here ARE NTs, DO have some semblance of an inflated ego (it's ok, I have it too) and measure the goodness of things from a mainly analytical and logical perspective; hence obviously the ability of rationality would seem the most ideal, and therefore, those possessing it would naturally be "better".

But just to remind everyone- logic is not everything. There are just some things in life that are beyond logic (e.g. love), and therefore not always solvable with logic.

But with that said, I would DARESAY that A LOT of things are, depending on what you have been exposed to, but I wouldn't be so bold as to claim that NTs as a type is better.

NT is a function that serves its own purpose. What WOULD be better is an NT personality WITH a very developed SF.

And that's my aim- not to be just any one type, but every single type so that I can be best in everything.

YAY!

 

[Toad]

That is my goal too Luci...

 

[walfin]

Something tells me that a NT heavy society would not die off more or breed significantly less or than the current SJ dominant society.

I propose that the numbers are merely based on the laws of probability. personality is based in the brain, as such, I argue that the NT brain is more complex, and therefore, less likely to develope. The environment for it to develope may also be a rare set of circumstances.

Evolution selects those with higher reproductive fitness at a given instance in time. Sensors might have had a higher chance of survival in the past due to several reasons - it is more essential to be able to live from day to day when you're starving. Furthermore NTs/NFs might have been more likely to be executed by tyrant kings in the past (except those who were the aides of the despots, and perhaps the despots themselves).

There is also a chance that NT-ness is the result of several recessive alleles AND rare environmental circumstances (considering that 2 NT parents do not necessarily an NT child make).

An NT heavy society might not die off or breed less quickly, but it might slowly, over successive generations, have more and more Other Types.

That said, there might be a change in MBTI distribution in world population many years from now, considering that people appear to be getting more intelligent (Flynn effect), and that the S-N dimension is correlated with IQ (though it is not known whether one gives rise to the other or not).

But just to remind everyone- logic is not everything. There are just some things in life that are beyond logic (e.g. love), and therefore not always solvable with logic.

Heard of the hormones vasopressin and oxytocin?

 

[Enne]

Enne, are you trying to get ur post count up? U have been double posting like crazy lol

No, I don't really care about / notice my post count, I'm just too ferret-y to slow down and make proper flowing quote walls.

 

[Toad]

Your avatar is kinda turning me on...Shit...it kind of reminds me of this athletic chick I went out with in HS. She was always punching me. Very abusive...I remember she used to give me bruises.

YOu know what?!!? I think every girlfriend I ever had has been abusing me. Seriously, I think they all punch, pinch, kick, scratch, and bite me.

I may be prone to abusive relationships...WTF

 

[Cryss Winters]

Your avatar is kinda turning me on...Shit...it kind of reminds me of this athletic chick I went out with in HS. She was always punching me. Very abusive...I remember she used to give me bruises.

YOu know what?!!? I think every girlfriend I ever had has been abusing me. Seriously, I think they all punch, pinch, kick, scratch, and bite me.

I may be prone to abusive relationships...WTF

Quite possibly. ... and how does this make you feel? =3

 

[Toad]

I don't know. Maybe I will always be attracted to more masculine women? Maybe I will always be the bitch in the relationship. Maybe...I like being dominated...

 

[Beat Mango]

But if we want to compare which person is better, then it's going to take a heck load of other considerations before making judgements. It also essentially means that we are saying that a particular personality is significantly "better" than another type. Does that mean people who HAVE that personality are always "better" (again, relative term) than others who do not?

Quite impossible to judge, I say.

Well I guess that's why I don't come up as 100% P - I'm prepared to step out, despite not possessing all relevant information, and make a judgement on this one. A few potentially problematic questions like the ones you've put forward don't bother me. There would be holes in any argument if we looked close enough, and if we used those as reasons to throw them out then we would be left with skepticism, which I'm not satisfied with. It might be impossible to make an ultimate judgement, but not to make a probable one.

And that's my aim- not to be just any one type, but every single type so that I can be best in everything.

YAY!

Haha... (you are joking, right?)

 

[Beat Mango]

Whats superior is whats important IMO or what has more potential, not what wields authority, or wealth, or eats the other. rarity and effort of development are considerations, but ones my words implied were ignored.

What I thought you were implying was that all are equally indispensable and therefore equally superior, which is what I was disagreeing with.

It seems we disagree on what it means to be superior. If I can't convince you that a doctor is superior to a garbage collector, then I sure won't be able to convince you that an NT is superior to other types. That's why I asked the question.

 

[Devercia]

It seems we disagree on what it means to be superior. If I can't convince you that a doctor is superior to a garbage collector, then I sure won't be able to convince you that an NT is superior to other types. That's why I asked the question.

You can't convince me of what I already believe, but did not state. I never said otherwise either.

Hey toad, I speak for myself, but I also find tomboys attractive. The INTP has a very masculine thought process(T is almost a synonym), despite a feminine way of acting.Since most women are F, the tomboys make more sense to me. there is now a chain of correlations:

Female T --> tomboy --> higher testosterone/muscle development --->aggressive behavior

 

[Toad]

You know I think I would say that NT's are needed just like other types are needed, but we are more cursed. I think we carry more weight on our shoulders than other types.

Yea I like tomboys.

 

[Razare]

I doubt NT's would be ranked among the happiest people on earth, inferior type in my opinion. I'm sure we're the wealthiest though if that's what you mean.

 

[Toad]

Wow, you really think we are the wealthiest Razare?

I heard Donald Trump was an ESTP and Bill Clinton an ESFP.