Manosphere

[kora]

Manosphere

A section of the internet where males who are upset that all the female individuals they have met do not want to sleep with them can go to vent and elaborately justify their resulting inferiority complex by blaming feminism and the emancipation of women as the cause for some imagined general problem in the whole society. They use darwinian arguments to state that womens natural place in society is one of total dependance on men and in the same breath complain of two faced manipulative gold digging behavior of the female gender which is a direct result of this dependance if anything (and also an unfair generalisation of an entire gender basically humungous fucking sexism), and so would be solved by feminism anyway. I guess that emancipation is a double edged sword ? Everything is a double edged sword though, hell even a double edged sword is a double edged sword. Anway, the more cultivated ones love to back up their view with shopenhauer and Aristote, worthless appeals to authority.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

I don't think there's anything new to discuss. Not because there aren't actual havens for such perspectives but because it's something born from deep social traits in humans. Focusing only on the unsuccessful "nice guys", PUA, neckbeards, red pillers or whatever you want to call them is more a witchunt in the style of Muslim faith vs irrelevant extremists which usually only serves to provide a convenient strawman to argue with online.

This stuff won't go away without treating the general issues of personality / psychology(and society). Meanwhile athletes, celebrities, and other socially apt males are getting away with all sorts of abuse because everyone is too afraid to go after popular people.

 

[Architect]

A section of the internet where males who are upset that all the female individuals they have met do not want to sleep with them can go to vent and elaborately justify their resulting inferiority complex by blaming feminism and the emancipation of women as the cause for some imagined general problem in the whole society...

I imagine that the beta-wolfs in a pack similarly go off for a smoke and vent, likewise blaming the females for their troubles. Its better (it seems to these guys) than facing up to the truth which is that they're not measuring up, which is pretty hard for the male psyche to handle.

Don't let it trouble you. These poor guys have been handed one of the worst reviews, and the stupider of them aren't learning from the experience. Unless they do eventually figure it out the problem is self correcting.

 

[kora]

Nothing new nah

 

[kora]

Society is emasculated. Wait, you mean a girl did that to you ?? Oh noooz my super man powerz are inexistant becuz female cryptonite succubus witches are sucking them dry.

Enough is enough. But you are right archie. It should not trouble me so i should give up my passtime of perusing manosphere articles to experience cocktails of disbelief/shock/amusement. I gather many of the members are teenagers so...

 

[Bock]

 

[Architect]

Society is emasculated.

Actually (generally speaking) young men appear to be becoming more emasculated. In Japan it's clearly been occurring and much discussion over there on the phenomenon. A huge problem too contributing to declining birth rates. There's a new class of young guys not interested in sex or romance.

In the West I see younger men (very generally) becoming way more neuter or feminine than in times past. Not sure the cause but we could discuss possible reasons.

So for these poor guys and those pathetic comments, maybe it's not society but them who are losing the mojo.

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

People tend to seem dumb to a critical person (even more so when that person doesn't judge their motives). People tend to seem even dumber in large groups when they find however many dumb things they share and acclaim them.

What's worthwhile about it?

Oh we can express our dissapointment, dismay, sure.

 

[Grayman]

Actually (generally speaking) young men appear to be becoming more emasculated. In Japan it's clearly been occurring and much discussion over there on the phenomenon. A huge problem too contributing to declining birth rates. There's a new class of young guys not interested in sex or romance.

In the West I see younger men (very generally) becoming way more neuter or feminine than in times past. Not sure the cause but we could discuss possible reasons.

So for these poor guys and those pathetic comments, maybe it's not society but them who are losing the mojo.

I don't think they are the issue. There is a larger number of boys growing up in broken homes without a male figure. Emasculation is an occurance due to having only a female parent being someone for the male to make comparisons from.

 

[Yellow]

In the West I see younger men (very generally) becoming way more neuter or feminine than in times past. Not sure the cause but we could discuss possible reasons.

I think parents/society have been falling down on the endgame of child-rearing.

Other than a few last-minute cognitive and hormonal developments, the real difference between a teenager and an adult is social/emotional/psychological maturity, which comes from guidance and experience. I think a lot of men and women are making it into adult ages without actually taking that developmental leap. They aren't growing up; they're just getting older.

Too many young men and women are senseless brats. In both cases, they display poor insight (blame others for their problems or deny that they have problems), fail to take on responsibility for their lives (expect parents and others to support them well into adulthood), and think that the artificial privileges extended to them in childhood should still apply in their adult lives (as is evident in their warped sense of entitlement, fairness, etc.)

So yes, red-pillers wanted to be handed ownership of a woman who was designed and programmed just for them. Then they recede into pouty-land when real life doesn't work that way. Similarly, many women think they are entitled to a handsome ATM/servant with psychic abilities. Insatiable, but with eyes only for her.

It's disgusting and it's curable.

We baby teens and young adults. We tell them it's okay to stay stuck in childhood. We tell them that someone else will clean up their messes. We tell them that they can't handle adult responsibilities. Teens are wired to practice being adults. When they continue to practice being children, their development is stunted. This crap started in earnest with mid-to-late Gen X, and it's getting worse.

Teens need progressively increased responsibilities, they need to be exposed the natural consequences of their decisions, and they need to be weaned off the privileges, handicaps, and safety of childhood.

 

[kora]

@architect and grayman So what is this phenomenon of emasculation precisely ? I mean how does it manifest ? What does it mean for a boy to be emasculated ? Let's chat i would have thought it was acceptable enough for someone to not be interested in sex, particularly with issues of overpopulation looming over us ^^

@bock this is not the post photos of your mum thread.

@Blarraun indeed not much use but i have noticed that some forum members here post links to manosphere sites. Otherwise i'm Just taking up interwebz space to complain yes.

 

[Bock]

Actually (generally speaking) young men appear to be becoming more emasculated. In Japan it's clearly been occurring and much discussion over there on the phenomenon. A huge problem too contributing to declining birth rates. There's a new class of young guys not interested in sex or romance.

In the West I see younger men (very generally) becoming way more neuter or feminine than in times past. Not sure the cause but we could discuss possible reasons.

So for these poor guys and those pathetic comments, maybe it's not society but them who are losing the mojo.

Sexual revolution, female hypergamy, dismantled nuclear family, economic changes (women do not need men to provide for them anymore for example) and so on.

Gee i wonder why it's always the men that gets all the blame, maybe it's because they're born with inherent value while women are disposable? Oh wait

 

[kora]

PS: If the emasculation you are talking about is what yellow is referring to in his (quite Interesting) post, then you are using "emasculation" to mean more dependant on others and immature ?
Correct me if i'm jumping to wrong conclusions, i'm pretty impatient.

 

[Bock]

@bock this is not the post photos of your mum thread.

The image quite fittingly represents the tone (and to some degree the content) of your posts in this thread.

 

[Cognisant]

Ask a man and a woman the same question "what stands between you and becoming a parent" and two answers will predominant.

The first is obviously money, everybody's worried about it, nobody feels they have enough and when women go looking for partners they seek money because it promises as sense of security they currently lack. This itself is nothing new but the attitude that money and relationships are two separate things started with the boomers because they were living in a time of great economy prosperity, this has fucked up every generation since because we've all grown up with the same romantic Disney bullshit.

If instead the equation (money = women) was the given assumption (as it always was) there wouldn't be a problem, young men would seek financial success before trying to seek the attentions of women and any man who didn't would be laughed at and scorned for his foolishness. But that's not how it is, ask any young man that's currently working his ass of to become successful and he'll tell you he feels left out, left behind, because there's plenty of other young men out there courting women by charisma and persistence.

It's no longer the fashion to look down on these people, instead you honest hard working young men feel that they're the fools or that they don't measure up to this new standard.

The second problem is expectations, fictional media has branched off into gender specific demographics depicting two different and often contradictory kinds of romance, neither of which is healthy nor realistic. Men don't know how to woo anymore or expect that it shouldn't take anywhere as long as it does and women expect more wooing than any sane man is willing to undertake.

So now everybody's confused, upset and blaming each other and they're not wrong because everybody's got their expectations messed up, and now there's sites for men and women to congregate and find unity in hatred of the other.

 

[kora]

Sexual revolution, female hypergamy, dismantled nuclear family, economic changes (women do not need men to provide for them anymore for example) and so on.

Gee i wonder why it's always the men that gets all the blame, maybe it's because they're born with inherent value while women are disposable? Oh wait

Wut.


I dont get it, who has inherent value.

 

[Cognisant]

Sexual revolution, female hypergamy, dismantled nuclear family, economic changes (women do not need men to provide for them anymore for example) and so on.

You know what's wrong but not why it's wrong.

You're frustrated that your female peers are having sex, just not with you, and that's a legitimate frustration but the solution isn't to take it out on them now, rather you wait, work hard, then date 20yr old women in your 30s, 40s and maybe even further if you're that wealthy. Meanwhile as those now attractive women lose their looks they'll be discarded and forgotten, left to compete for an ever dwindling pool of men still interested in women their age.

Once upon a time a man would get married and stay married.
Then people starting getting divorced all the time.
Now it's the norm to just not get married.

Apparently this is called progress

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

@Blarraun indeed not much use but i have noticed that some forum members here post links to manosphere sites. Otherwise i'm Just taking up interwebz space to complain yes.

Apologies if I seemed dismissive, I don't follow the forum content, you are probably better informed than I am and you may as well have every reason to complain and raise the awarness of the problem that is personally relevant to you.

 

[Grayman]

@architect and grayman So what is this phenomenon of emasculation precisely ? I mean how does it manifest ? What does it mean for a boy to be emasculated ? Let's chat

Responsibility: Leadership through service and making an example of what it means to be a productive member of society and a reliable man for his family. A man has to be able to set aside his pride and accept advice but be ready to do what is right for his family. He needs to love his family and show affection where it is needed but needs to put primary focus on their own ability to sustain themselves. A man is not helping his family unless he is making it so they can survive without him. He needs to help his family find their own strength and independence.

Security: A protector and security for the family and wife. A man needs confidence and to focus on emotional wisdom and less on emotional expression. He needs to be reliable and make sure he provides for his family where needed. He also needs to be self-sustainable and sustain the family. He should be someone his wife can always feel safe and confident in. A woman needs someone who can listen to her but she also needs a man in her life who she can feel confident in their ability to handle the situation. A man needs to be able to set aside his feelings and security to provide for the security of the family but must not fall into the trap that he can never ask his wife to be there for him when the family is finally safe and the situation has passed. The woman desires this emotional connection at times and this is the most appropriate time to allow her to connect. Work is primarily for the security of the family. A man who puts his desires for success at work above the success of the family is missing the point of what it is to be a man and why it was so important that he worked in the first place.

Influence: By following the idea of what it is to be a man a man can influence those around him. A man who needs to bribe, intimidate, or dominate those who rely on him is not a man but a boy who has failed to become a man. A true man transcends the need to invoke such influence. A man is someone who is listened to because he is respected and trusted by his family.

EDIT: A single man has the same responsibility to society. A man who is married has to put his family first.
*************
What it is to be a man is a set of ideals that society has failed to achieve. Focus has been put on the failures and all of what it is to be a man, husband, and father is under attack and deemed discriminatory or dominating to women and homosexuals. I am under the belief that a homosexual is a man when he is willing to be self sacrificing and a proud member of society who is a respectable and confident human being.

 

[Deleted member 1424]

Oh man...

This thread has progressed pretty much exactly as I thought it would.

*Snickers*

@Blarraun indeed not much use but i have noticed that some forum members here post links to manosphere sites. Otherwise i'm Just taking up interwebz space to complain yes.

You do realize that the demographic you're complaining about is the exact demographic that pervades on this forum to no small extent? This forum isn't devoted to the topic and there are solid minority voices, but there are plenty of lesser Elliot Roger-complexes going on around here.

Unless you're specifically trying to reach out to them in some capacity.
It's a waste of time and energy, Higs. There's no real communication to be had and you can't help them.


@Cog
You never cease surprising me with how utterly deluded you truly are.

 

[Grayman]

...

After reading this crap on Elliot Roger's... men who have the wrong priorities and are too focused on themselves instead of what people around them need. They are highly insecure and push people away with their constant pressures of affection forcing. Anyone who is a wooer is an foolish boy who will always fail. Then again he might succeed once in a while to get the highly insecure female who doesn't meet up to his own selfish expectations.

 

[The Gopher]

Adaire, Higs, there is a better way. You should become a raving uhh what's the term Manosphere person(?) In the same way Westbro baptist church is a shining light pushing people towards acceptance... noticing how insane and over the edge you are you will push people towards the right path.

No but seriously I love extremists. They generally do a disfavor to their cause and it's not only a disaster but it's a hilarious one.

That said I think we have enough of each side due to the majority of the forum being INTP and thus hopeless in relationships while maintaining narcissism complex's. This allows people to blame others and not take responsibility for their own actions or failings. Ironically (or not?) those who don't take responsibility for their failings are the ones that don't improve and those that do put appropriate blame on themselves generally improve. (in general)

 

[StevenM]

They are their own demise. If you want to add fuel to their fire, just don't have sex with them.

 

[Architect]

@higs and others.

This is a rough idea I've put little thought into so take that into account. Mainly it comes from what is happening in Japan. After working on a project there for years and still having friends I keep in contact I keep tabs on the country. This is something I heard about when I was visiting in the late 90's, and I've been reading it's gotten worse, as I indicated.

Other than the personal interest I keep tabs on Japan because for many reasons (including financially and demographically) they hit big trend points before we in the West do. For example, they hit their housing bubble peak in the 1990 and have been declining ever since. I used this to help predict we were going to hit our housing bubble peak in 2008. There are many other examples, but it stands to reason that it's worth considering that Japanese trends will also be exported over here eventually.

On masculinity I've been keeping a vague eye out and it does seem anecdotally to be happening.

Archetypically, this ...

rather than this

So higs, at this point it doesn't seem to be related to having sex yet (over here). Young men still seem to have their libido. It seems to be starting with their role models (which are reflections of their hero archetypes) and their presentation and behavior. Masculinity carries with it a tempered edge of anger and violence, which seems to have declined.

That's as far as I've gone. Feel free to trash the idea.

 

[Grayman]

That's as far as I've gone. Feel free to trash the idea.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUET3dZbNYA

I think you are displaying the perception of a young teenage girls affection.

Here is a closer look at the majority.
http://www.cosmopolitan.co.uk/enter...375/cosmopolitan-sexiest-men-of-2014/?slide=1

Women want a neat kept,non monkey, man and only 17% want a smooth chest.
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...oming-especially-below-the-neck-69851052.html

 

[EyeSeeCold]

You do realize that the demographic you're complaining about is the exact demographic that pervades on this forum to no small extent? This forum isn't devoted to the topic and there are solid minority voices, but there are plenty of lesser Elliot Roger-complexes going on around here.

Pervades? Maybe that's exaggerating a bit? I mean even pokemon discussion is more common.

 

[Pyropyro]

So what do we exactly want to do with the members of the manosphere here? The opening post is basically just a definition. Should we:

• Define the cause and effect of their behavior (a bit interesting although also a bit rehashed)
• Formulate a way to help them get out of the manosphere (probably more interesting; I really prefer to know how to help them since I almost was sucked into that area. Fortunately, I found PUA techniques a bit too inhumane for my tastes)
• Prove how awesome we are and how superior our genitals are compared to theirs ()
• Waste INTPf space (well at least we will get higher post counts)

 

[Grayman]

So what do we exactly want to do with the members of the manosphere here? The opening post is basically just a definition. Should we:

• Define the cause and effect of their behavior (a bit interesting although also a bit rehashed)
• Formulate a way to help them get out of the manosphere (probably more interesting; I really prefer to know how to help them since I almost was sucked into that area. Fortunately, I found PUA techniques a bit too inhumane for my tastes)
• Prove how awesome we are and how superior our genitals are compared to theirs ()
• Waste INTPf space (well at least we will get higher post counts)

So how do you get them out of it? The problem has nothing to do with technique or picking up girls. It is entirely a problem with themselves.

 

[Deleted member 1424]

Adaire, Higs, there is a better way. You should become a raving uhh what's the term Manosphere person(?)

I already am a raving lunatic.
I just save the madness for things that are fun.

 

[Pyropyro]

So how do you get them out of it? The problem has nothing to do with technique or picking up girls. It is entirely a problem with themselves.

Grayman you should have picked the option where you prove how awesome your genitals are compared to theirs but no... you just have to pick a sensible option.

What I mean in my last post is that PUA was almost my "gateway drug", if you will, to their world. I believe that although related to the topic at hand, PUA is a subject best discussed in another thread.

The problem is that these guys are full of themselves and are not aware or care of the damage they cause to the people around them. Basically, it's an empathy issue. You have to coax them out of their bravado covered shells.

So how do you do that? I think it's best to help them find something bigger than themselves that is worth fighting for/doing. It will take a lot of coaxing, charisma and "walking the walk". You have to embody a part or a whole of the person that they would wish to be. That, Grayman, is quite hard in my opinion. And no, before anybody will raise the issue, this is isn't about that alpha beta crap.

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

Trying to "pick up" women at clubs is a terrible idea. If that "scene" is not "them", I recommend not going there, period.

Proxy's tips:

1) Be a decent person, not "nice".
2) Have a backbone. Always doing what other people want will not lead to success in any endeavor.
3) Set a life goal and strive towards it. Having a purpose makes you more attractive.
4) Don't make your life about attracting the opposite sex.
5) Don't be creepy.

Edit:

I forgot to mention that people should have faith in Jesus.

 

[Grayman]

Trying to "pick up" women at clubs is a terrible idea. If that "scene" is not "them", I recommend not going there, period.

Proxy's tips:

1) Be a decent person, not "nice".
2) Have a backbone. Always doing what other people want will not lead success in any endeavor.
3) Set a life goal and strive towards it. Having a purpose makes you more attractive.
4) Don't make your life about attracting the opposite sex.
5) Don't be creepy.

Edit:

I forgot to mention that people should have faith in Jesus.

Are you a spiritual leader in your household?

 

[Pyropyro]

Are you a spiritual leader in your household?

Proxy's a saint dude.

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

Are you a spiritual leader in your household?

Of course.

 

[Grayman]

@higs

I view the manosphere extremists as the emasculated group. I think they are emasculated by their upbringing and a society that doesn't give a shit enough to provide for stable homes and good parenting because their greatest focus is on equality to the extent that they will let these young men drown themselves in their pitiful world.

Growing up around christian community I did find value in one thing. It is amazing when women can bring encouragement to males in leading and being good example for the younger males and just being there for them. I think society lacks that support group and encouragement. Instead I see people that fight to take away males involvement in a children's life. Society only talks about mans failure in a woman's world which is fine but they fail to endorse and recognize the greater values that would encourage young males and give them guidance.

LONG STORY SHORT: We as a society should take some responsibility in how the children of our society turn out.

 

[The Gopher]

The problem with society taking responsibility is that "society" effectively is nobody. Saying it's society's responsibility allows people to offload the responsibility. (regardless of if what you saying is true or not) Individuals are the ones required to take responsibility (which makes up the society) and they/we won't do that if it's "society" that is the problem.

So while technically what you said may have been correct wording causes people to feel less guilty.

 

[Grayman]

The problem with society taking responsibility is that "society" effectively is nobody. Saying it's society's responsibility allows people to offload the responsibility. (regardless of if what you saying is true or not) Individuals are the ones required to take responsibility (which makes up the society) and they/we won't do that if it's "society" that is the problem.

So while technically what you said may have been correct wording causes people to feel less guilty.

Why does it work for recycling, cancer awareness, energy conservation, and equal rights?

 

[redbaron]

Why does it work for recycling, cancer awareness, energy conservation, and equal rights?

Because individuals do those things.

 

[Grayman]

Because individuals do those things.

A group of them who value societal success and overall health.

 

[The Gopher]

It's the difference between taking a highway and the back-roads. Just speech optimization.

Also technically it doesn't work for recycling, cancer awareness maybe... but that could also be in part to the amount of people who know people with cancer. It doesn't work for energy conservation and I have no data on equal rights.

Now sure it works to an extent when individuals inspire others to help but on a general mass scale most people don't care about recycling unless they are told they need to do it. Being told society needs to do it is putting it onto a third party and thus people feel they can get away with it or that they wouldn't effect anything.

Now telling individuals they need to do stuff overall leads to groups doing stuff and society doing stuff. All I was saying is that if you word it differently you can have greater effects. In other words I'm not disputing your point I'm telling you if you use a different engine oil it would optimize performance.

 

[redbaron]

Recycling actually works pretty well in a lot of countries, just not ones full of short-sighted planks.

 

[The Gopher]

Well fair, but I live in a country of short-sighted planks.

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

If instead the equation (money = women) was the given assumption (as it always was) there wouldn't be a problem, young men would seek financial success before trying to seek the attentions of women and any man who didn't would be laughed at and scorned for his foolishness. But that's not how it is, ask any young man that's currently working his ass of to become successful and he'll tell you he feels left out, left behind, because there's plenty of other young men out there courting women by charisma and persistence.

It's no longer the fashion to look down on these people, instead you honest hard working young men feel that they're the fools or that they don't measure up to this new standard.

Do you seriously think this honestly working man cannot meet and appeal to women? That women are a "commodity" domain of PUAs, rich old etc.?

Oh man...

This thread has progressed pretty much exactly as I thought it would.

*Snickers*

Way to show how you are above all that, because you have gained some kind of perspective and understanding that is unobtainable to people you are referring to.

And you will hold onto this precious little edge of understanding that allows you to look down on everyone else...

Or maybe someday you will gracefully appear in another thread to give the common folk some more of your condescension.

 

[RaBind]

It might be easy to fall into the trap of bringing the no real Scotsman fallacy into this. No real man would be part of the Manosphere, because they're part of the Manosphere as a result of them not being a real man to begin with. There would have to be a clear distinction between what a real man is, and what sort of man you have to be in order to be in the Manosphere. The qualities of being a real man and of being in the Manosphere are vague and debatable.

The value of an individual can be formed by either their state of being/attitudes or their achievements/results. We tend to think that an individual with a good state of being/attitudes is usually going to end up with what they deserve/what has been brought about by their own doing, but this isn't always necessarily so. For all you know you might be talking about the epitome of a man who has done everything right, but just drew the short stick of the draw and wasn't lucky with women. His view of powerlessness and incapability of doing anything about the situation might actually be totally spot on, but the only thing other people would be able to do for the said person is say "suck it up", "stop winning", "stop being a loser" or some other variation of fuck you and your problems.

On the other hand the worst manifestations of men could use PUA techniques or other similar stuff and be very successful with regards to women and relationships.

The Manosphere itself imo is quite small. It is only though the internet, and its demographics, that you are able to gain so much expose to it.

 

[Cognisant]

Do you seriously think this honestly working man cannot meet and appeal to women? That women are a "commodity" domain of PUAs, rich old etc.?

Well when you put it that way you're making a strawman of me.

Of course a working man can meet & appeal to women, it would be absurd to say otherwise, what I'm saying is that not going out to drink/socialize of a weekend, spending long hours working, making good investments rather than buying fashionable phones/clothes/car/etc makes it more difficult to meet and appeal to women, at least in the short term but the short term is all that most young men are concerned about.

And of course women can't literally be bought (well apart from the obvious) and you can't go up to any woman you like and say "hey I'm rich, dump your boyfriend for me" because again that's just ridiculous. However if $100 notes were cash in a proverbial peacock's tail the bigger you tail is the more visible you are and your tail towers over your peers then that's clearly advantageous.

I'm not talking absolutes, I'm talking in general.

 

[Cognisant]

Way to show how you are above all that, because you have gained some kind of perspective and understanding that is unobtainable to people you are referring to.

And you will hold onto this precious little edge of understanding that allows you to look down on everyone else...

Or maybe someday you will gracefully appear in another thread to give the common folk some more of your condescension.

Don't bother as far as she's concerned by virtue of having a Y chromosome we're automatically deluded oppressive misogynistic bastards if not in fact rapists.

 

[kora]

Responsibility: Leadership through service and making an example of what it means to be a productive member of society and a reliable man for his family. A man has to be able to set aside his pride and accept advice but be ready to do what is right for his family. He needs to love his family and show affection where it is needed but needs to put primary focus on their own ability to sustain themselves. A man is not helping his family unless he is making it so they can survive without him. He needs to help his family find their own strength and independence.

Security: A protector and security for the family and wife. A man needs confidence and to focus on emotional wisdom and less on emotional expression. He needs to be reliable and make sure he provides for his family where needed. He also needs to be self-sustainable and sustain the family. He should be someone his wife can always feel safe and confident in. A woman needs someone who can listen to her but she also needs a man in her life who she can feel confident in their ability to handle the situation. A man needs to be able to set aside his feelings and security to provide for the security of the family but must not fall into the trap that he can never ask his wife to be there for him when the family is finally safe and the situation has passed. The woman desires this emotional connection at times and this is the most appropriate time to allow her to connect. Work is primarily for the security of the family. A man who puts his desires for success at work above the success of the family is missing the point of what it is to be a man and why it was so important that he worked in the first place.

Influence: By following the idea of what it is to be a man a man can influence those around him. A man who needs to bribe, intimidate, or dominate those who rely on him is not a man but a boy who has failed to become a man. A true man transcends the need to invoke such influence. A man is someone who is listened to because he is respected and trusted by his family.

EDIT: A single man has the same responsibility to society. A man who is married has to put his family first.
*************
What it is to be a man is a set of ideals that society has failed to achieve. Focus has been put on the failures and all of what it is to be a man, husband, and father is under attack and deemed discriminatory or dominating to women and homosexuals. I am under the belief that a homosexual is a man when he is willing to be self sacrificing and a proud member of society who is a respectable and confident human being.

You're just listing qualities that any individual in society could/should strive for, confidence, responsibility, independance, wisdom, self control, providing for family etc...why are these inherently tied to "masculine" behavior? Is it because you're being silly by any chance? They are things I want for myself and my mother and grandmother achieved these as well as their husbands. They are not inherently masculine traits and I don't know why you consider them such. Your posts so far on the forum hadn't given me the impression you were determined by such reductionist traditional world views. Oh well, you're still on a higher level than bock that's for sure. I suppose values such as compassion caring and empathy, non dominating behaviour are the feminine ones? I think everyone should strive for those as well, and again, I think we should stop categorizing them as inherently feminine, and even less categorize them as WEAK, because it would be a GOOD thing if they were integrated into societal structure, they would help GROWTH as a whole. Basically jesus was right.

@Blarraun no problem I don't think you're dismissive, you seem pretty sensible.

@bock, I suggest you follow St proxyamenra's five simple rules and you will most likely improve the quality of your interactions and relationships with both genders? I would include a picture of an angry baby to sum up the level of your arguments but would rather not waste my time.

@architect please refrain from soiling my threads with pictures of Justin Bieber in the future. Thank you.

I'm off to have a triple marriage with adaire and gopher now. Pyropyro and Blarraun can be bridesmaids. I used game to convince them all.

 

[Cognisant]

Can I be the priest?

 

[kora]

Can I be the priest?

Okay but you have to be naked. And we're roasting you on a spit and eating you after the ceremony.

 

[Ex-User (11125)]

1) Be a decent person, not "nice".
2) Have a backbone. Always doing what other people want will not lead to success in any endeavor.
3) Set a life goal and strive towards it. Having a purpose makes you more attractive.
4) Don't make your life about attracting the opposite sex.
5) Don't be creepy.

Ok good points there...except no. 3 is not really necessary I guess