Low carbs, high fat

[Minuend]

So I accidentally stumbled across a book about LCHF. It was interesting had two- three pages of sources. I have yet to check them out, and I should probably see other sources as well. The book was very biased. Often when others didn't agree, it would dismiss them as conservative or freaked of loosing money. Which makes me instantly skeptical. But the life style itself seem interesting. And it did sometimes explain "scientifically" why the others were wrong.

Now, the idea is that the new food (sugar and white flour ((too much carbs))) is harmful to the human body because we cannot process it efficiently. Regarding sugar, that shouldn't come as a surprise.

Though what some might find a bit more dubious is the amount of fat you're supposed to eat. Let me illustrate, you take out:

Bread
Light products
Fruit and some vegetables (like potatoes)
Pasta
Rice
Sugar (coke, fast food, candy etc)

And yhis is your new diet:

Cheese (anything with cheese must be good )
Egg
Meat, fish, bacon (I love bacon. Eggs and bacon for breakfast is a good breakfast. Fat meats)
Butter, real butter.
Vegetables
Crème fraiche and cream
Cofee with whipped cream
Fat souses like béarnaise (my personal favorite) (You should make it yourself tho, finished products isn't as good for you)

The idea is that fat is good for you, because the body is made to process it etc.

In addition, the new foods are blamed for the increase in diabetes, overweight epidemic heart disease, tooth issues among other things (in the book, I mean).

Here's the wikipedia article about it

 

[Jah]

I'm terribly contrarian, so:

I don't like this whole fetishism with food at all.


Yes, there is some fact to this approach, such as the fact that fat is not dangerous for you, but necessary for your hormonal production and your continued survival.


But they always go too far.

always.



So, yes; Fat is not the devil, it won't kill you, and keeping track of your omega-acid balances will help you function much better.

But neither is carbohydrates.
In fact they are the preferred fuel for your mind.
(That being said, you do also function on ketone bodies.)

So, Yes, too much carbohydrates can fuck with your system.
So can too much fat.

Two things to avoid:

Most grains contain gluten and lectins, which are known to cause some havoc in your gut and fuck with your endocrine system (hormones). (White Rice contains neither.)

Dairy is a common intolerance, so people should try to find out whether or not this applies to them, and adapt their diet around this.


However, there is no reason to be dogmatic about it, be aware of the dangers associated with over-consumption of the different nutrients, but don't throw them over-board just because there is a limit to how much you can take.




So, Sugar; creates an insulin spike, which can make you prone to over-consume.

Solution: Eat, then stop eating, do other stuff, then much later again; eat. and recycle.


The major problem lies, in my opinion, in the way people constantly consume.
Which is also indicated in the increase in caloric intake from Snacks;
http://recomp.com/blogma/2011/06/in...reased-energy-intake-at-the-population-level/

Stop eating all the time, let your body make use of the glycogen stored in your liver and muscle (the first by letting time pass between meals, and the second by working out vigorously once or twice a week, followed by a re-feed on carbohydrate (which turns to glucose, which is then transformed into glycogen.))


Your body is adapted to going for extended periods without food.
(You're quite capable of going 60 hours without food before your body starts "going into starvation mode")

Thus the whole "eat every 3 hours" should clearly be recognized as a false notion, which, unless coupled with exercise, will lead to over-consumption and increased obesity.

 

[Minuend]

What do you consider a good balance?

Say 20g carbs a day? 50? 100?

Well, the thing about LCHF (I actually started on this yesterday as an experiment) is that you eat less automatically because you are full longer. I have noticed this, having previously become hungry about every 3 hours. Now I have gone 5 hours and my last meal could have contained more fat. I feel less need to eat in between because it's constantly like I just ate.

Now, I don't count. I just try to keep carbs at a minimum.

Btw, didn't you, Jah, mention that you didn't eat very often? What do you eat on a normal day?

I am planning on trying for at least a month to see if I notice any difference in energy level and amount of food I need to eat to stay full. I also want to see if I can get rid of the slight amount of fat I've gathered around my belly. I tried a low fat diet but didn't get any result, despite exercising 4-5 days a week.

I want to go on longer before I make up my mind whether it is a good approach or not. I also want to study it further.

One thing I gotta say though, eating like this makes things much more simpler. I like fatty foods (who doesn't?) ((well, actually, my mother doesn't too much)). So every meal becomes enjoyable because you can sprinkle it with bacon, butter, cream, cheese, mayonnaise etc.

And as wiki says, it doesn't increase your chance of, for instance, heart disease.

Yesterday I ate 4 crisp bread with butter and bacon infused cheese.
Low carb lasagna with squash
One small bite of cheese with butter on it
(And, of course I drank some water in between and a cup of coffee with cream)

And I wasn't hungry until 12 o'clock this morning. Which I find interesting.

ED: I want to add. I think the reason some get a bit overexcited is because they have tried loosing weight for so long without results and then BAM they start LCHF and get results quite quickly. And they want to "help" others. Kinda like door-to-door jews.

Btw, what could explain the increase in overweight people? Do really that many people stay inactive? Some publish studies that "could" link it to genes, but why this sudden increase in fat genes? Explaining it by blaming food is tempting, because it makes sense. But I shall not jump to (Mordor) conclusions, of course, it would be utterly ridiculous to do so with no basis.

 

[Smooch]

Minuend,
keep us posted.

I've been quite interested in doing this for a long time and I'm trying to decide what would be the best way to go about it.

 

[smithcommajohn]

Low carb diets are very effective on most obese people. I think a lot of it stems from them eating less food overall once they get away from the sugar. Sugar creates an urge to consume more (in me anyway). If you have a can of Coke, it almost seems like something is missing, right? You begin to crave something starchy and salty to go with it, so you get a bag of chips. Ahh! Now we're completing the cravings. Sugar > Salt > Sugar > Salt > etc. If you're not careful you will finish a 2 liter of Coke along with a huge bag of chips and wonder why your belly hurts. I think these kinds of foods naturally cause us to overconsume.

If you go on a low carb diet you will start off consuming quite a bit at first, but over time I think you will find yourself eating less and less. The foods simply don't create that same kind of reaction as starches and simple sugars.

In the end, you can eat whatever it is you like to eat, but in moderation. Take care to listen to your body. It really will tell you what's going on. It lets you know when it is hungry (don't eat because it's time to eat). It lets you know when you've had enough (don't necessarily clean your plate). It will even tell you what it needs (cravings). It will then tell you if you did good (how you feel about 2 hours later).

 

[EditorOne]

We are omnivores, so just about anything is fair game. What we haven't done is link our eating habits to First World food richness and availability. Our bodies are set up to extract immediate energy from food, then convert what we eat beyond immediate need into fat for use some other time. That might or might not be within five minutes or five days. We are, it seems, constantly pulling the "make fat" trigger and rarely pulling the "convert body fat to energy" lever. So these "fad" diets are really clever ways to pull that lever while giving the body enough food that isn't easily processed to prevent you from feeling hungry.

A lot of people think eating fat makes you fat, like it goes right from the pig to you or something. There's a whole lot of chemistry between the pig's fat and your fat, and if you need all the energy in that pig fat just to make it through the day, none gets converted into your body fat.

There are other ways than the low carb diet to get to the same place, but they are a lot harder to handle because your brain has to get used to the idea that hunger isn't bad.

Highly processed foods are energy rich; your body quickly gets, in a few mouthfuls, what would, 5,000 years ago, have been enough energy to go all day. It then converts the rest into body fat. But your stomach quickly empties, and the brain gets a message that says "I'm hungry." Hungry you may be, but more food you do not need. Eating more highly processed, energy rich food repeats the process.

Your body doesn't pull the "convert fat to energy" lever for quite some time, like a day or two of not eating anything. The low carb diet tricks the body's two signal systems: Your stomach is not empty, so you don't feel hungry; your body isn't getting quick energy, so it starts working on your fat.

That's what I understand about it and I have doubtless oversimplified.

The danger of the low carb diet is one of carrying it to extremes. After a few days of nicely working on your fat reserves, your body might really pull another lever and start consuming protein -- your own muscle. The balance required is to keep the body using stored body fat for energy without pushing it over the edge into consuming muscle and taking other steps, like stopping hair growth, fingernail growth, etc.

POWs sometimes find themselves at the mercy of diets worked out by idiots or by necessity. United States prisoners at Andersonville and other Confederate prisons lost fat, muscle, hair and everything else in the last two years of the war. They were getting food, but it was essentially one thing: Corn meal. It was not ground properly, their bodies couldn't process it properly, and reacted as if they got no food at all. Fourteen months on just corn meal will definitely solve your weight problems, but it's not recommended. Those guys were also vulnerable to sickness they would normally have shrugged off -- another danger when you take any diet to extremes.

We are omnivores. If we were intelligent about being omnivores, we'd probably be healthier.

 

[A22]

#Edited

Correct me if I'm wrong: Fat takes a while to be digested, and, since it is only done in the intestine, you'd feel hungry in the meantime (which would be most of the time). When it's finally good for the body to use it, you would get a peak of energy, since fat provides way more energy than carbs. But you would probably have already eaten again since it takes a while to be good for use and that's only done in your intestine.

Also, if you eat too much animal (saturated) fat it wouldn't be really good for you. And hydrogenated vegetable oil / trans fat is really unhealthy so you should avoid eating it. Vegetable oil (or unsaturated fat) is the healthy one (if you don't eat too much of it). So it's kind of hard to get food with the "right" kind of fat.

I've read about some studies about low-carb diet in Readers Digest though. They seem to agree that a low-carb diet really is healthier but I don't recall reading anything about replacing most carbs with fat.

 

[Architect]

People are so messed up over food these days.

Our bodies burn glucose. Sugar & white flour are most easily converted to glucose, so no it's not that we aren't designed to eat them, we are especially designed to eat them, but it's too much of a good thing. Like alcohol, they get converted too quickly to glucose. Over time this is bad for you, because we were designed for foods that weren't so energy rich, i.e. complex carbohydrates and other vegetables.

We are also not designed for eating large quantities of meat. Among the primates we are an excessive exception, the others eat no more than 3-6% of their calories (if that) from meat products. Meat and especially dairy are high energy intensity foods you need to avoid.

See the trend here? Eating high on the food chain/energy intensive foods = bad. Eating low on the food chain/low energy intensive foods = good.

A lot of people think eating fat makes you fat, like it goes right from the pig to you or something. There's a whole lot of chemistry between the pig's fat and your fat

This is dead wrong, I recommend you do some research on this topic. I'm not going to repeat it here, but the reality is that no processing occurs with dietary fat (think for a moment, why should it? Why wouldn't your body just take fat and deposit it and vice versa?) For example, we could take a sample of the fat in your stomach down to a lab, and they can identify it precisely as pig, fish, cow or fowl fat. I can provide references if you're interested (Dr Neil Barnard has some books that discuss this with full references from the literature)

Additionally saying 'we are omnivores so anything is game' is one of those statements that is technically right but fundamentally wrong. Sorry for picking, otherwise I really respect you but this is all wrong.

Low carb diets are wrong, wrong, wrong! Don't do it people, Atkins died a sick, fat old man of a heart attack, but he did one thing right. He told people exactly what they wanted to hear and made a lot of money from it.

 

[Bird]

Just eat avocados.

 

[smithcommajohn]

Just eat avocados.

Mmmmm... Love me some avocados! I've heard them described as the "perfect food". Not sure why, but I don't care either way. YUM!

 

[ApostateAbe]

I have a low carb and high fat/protein diet, and I love it. It is great for body builders and diabetics, of which I am both. But, I really do think it is the natural and healthy way to eat, regardless, and I recommend it for everyone.

Here are some tips for that diet:

• Many grocery stores including Walmart sell heaps of bacon "ends & pieces," which is cheap and contains large irregular chunks of protein-rich bacon meat, not just the wimpy thin stuff that you get in stereotypical bacon slices. I love getting up in the morning and frying in a skillet a handful of that stuff, letting the skillet get all greasy, and I add sliced onion, sliced half-a-tomato, sliced mushroom, green vegetable of choice (okra, zucchini, broccoli, Brussels sprouts, asparagus), mix it all together, and add an egg to the skillet. Turn off the heat, flip the egg over easy, and let it sit for thirty seconds before transferring everything to your plate all at once. Truly the breakfast of assholes (champions be damned).
  
  
  
  
  
• Walmart and other grocery stores sell thin circular sandwich bread (some sold with a hole in the middle to make it bagel-like), and it contains half the carb content as normal bread, so having a sandwich using that bread means eating half the carbs. I like to fry up a frozen hamburger patty, slice of onion, and I lightly toast the bread, I add two slices of Monterrey Jack cheese and sliced pickles to make a big juicy cheeseburger. The bread looks like this:
  
  
  
  
  
• I buy carrots and celery, and I snack on those vegetables by dipping them in a jar of natural chunky peanut butter. I am not talking about the homogenized sugary crap that claims to be peanut butter, but it is the stuff that you have to mix with a butter knife as soon as you open the jar. That is the truly delicious stuff deserving of the name, "peanut butter."
  
  
  
  
  
• To continue doing everything that I do (which is wise), go to your local tea shop for old ladies, and pick up a bag of loose-leaf Genmaicha, a tea strainer that fits a large mug, and a large mug if you don't already have one (you can get that at Walmart). Then, you can have delicious tea all day--just heat a mug of water in the microwave whenever you feel like having tea. If your hick town doesn't have a tea shop, then go to your local marijuana-accessory shop to get your tea strainer (the tea strainers at Walmart are crap), and you can find Genmaicha sold on the web. Here is the kind of tea you are looking for:
  
  
  

 

[digital angel]

I'll take brie.

 

[ApostateAbe]

I'll take brie.

That's cool, too. If you went for any a cheese that is pre-sliced or colored orange, then there would be a problem.

 

[Minuend]

People are so messed up over food these days.

Our bodies burn glucose. Sugar & white flour are most easily converted to glucose, so no it's not that we aren't designed to eat them, we are especially designed to eat them, but it's too much of a good thing. Like alcohol, they get converted too quickly to glucose. Over time this is bad for you, because we were designed for foods that weren't so energy rich, i.e. complex carbohydrates and other vegetables.

To nitpick, you say yourself that we are badly designed for quick energy

But that is not relevant, we agree a lot of that stuff isn't good.

We are also not designed for eating large quantities of meat. Among the primates we are an excessive exception, the others eat no more than 3-6% of their calories (if that) from meat products. Meat and especially dairy are high energy intensity foods you need to avoid.

Of course you shouldn't indulge in meat. It's both bad for your health and the environment. There's not enough meat to go around if everyone ate as much as we (the...rich folks, I guess) did. There's a balance to be kept as in any diet. You shouldn't completely avoid carbs either.

I believe the clue about LCHF is increasing fat consumption, not meat.

Low carb diets are wrong, wrong, wrong! Don't do it people, Atkins died a sick, fat old man of a heart attack, but he did one thing right. He told people exactly what they wanted to hear and made a lot of money from it.

No, Atkins died from slipping on the ice, suffering head trauma at the age of 72. He did have some heart problems earlier, but those was, as stated in the article, ironically not related to his diet.

Research clears LCHF of increasing risk of heart disease (as mentioned in earlier wiki article).

Correct me if I'm wrong: Fat takes a while to be digested, and, since it is only done in the intestine, you'd feel hungry in the meantime (which would be most of the time).

Here's how it works. Now by eliminating a great dose of carbs, you don't get hungry as often.

This diagram on the next page is actually kinda helpful.

But neither is carbohydrates.
In fact they are the preferred fuel for your mind.

If I understand correctly, the brain needs the glucose which comes from carbs. The rest is stored as fat (more or less). This "problem" can be solved by the body's own mechanism- the gluconeogenesis.


ED: Okay, I think I misspelled this so that I confused gluconeogenesis with glycogenolysis.

ApostateAbe: thanks for tips, at this point I take in any advice I can get.

And before I finish; I do consider critical analysis. I want to do what's best for my body, if this is not it, I want to know. By questioning, you also make it easier for me to focus on what to read up on to discover the truth. I'm excited.

 

[Polaris]

Like Jah said...balance.

I think it is important to "get to know" how your body works. Read all the scientifically backed literature out there (this is a good site for properly referenced articles that summarise all the important points on diet : http://articles.mercola.com/sites/a...is-supersize-documentary-really-accurate.aspx

exercise: http://articles.mercola.com/sites/a...ram-to-keep-your-body-biologically-young.aspx)

Keep exploring this site, particularly the hyperlinks. I've tried to eliminate certain foods for a few weeks and then reintroducing them to see how my body reacts. I've realised refined carbs make me extremely lethargic.

So I have thus been avoiding refined carbs, particularly at breakfast time as it sets me up for carb-craving later in the day. I actually don't eat anything until about 12 Pm or 1 PM. I drink plenty of water and have the occasional cick of caffeine (no milk or sugar added). When I finally have lunch, I am not in a state of "carb-desperation", and I feel better than ever. Only problem is weight loss if you are prone to losing weight easily. If not, then bonus.

Today I had fresh beetroot salad with steamed green beans and goats cheese. This is actually really filling and I don't get that fatigue I would normally get if I had a meal of bread and whatever goes with it.

For dinner (before 7.30 PM I will usually eat things like red meat, salad, etc. I do eat white or brown rice at times, but usually find I don't need it. It's just a habit.

Now I don't eat like this all the time. I get the occasional craving. So I then pig out on some hot chips, a bowl of pasta, or baked potato with sour cream, ham and sweet corn. This happens perhaps twice weekly.

Of course, there's the odd CHOCOLATE-binge. Happens.

I only eat butter (the Danish stuff is amazing), and use extra virgin (organic if available) oil or coconut fat for cooking (research coconut fat at Dr Mercola's site, and learn why this previously cursed type of saturated fat is in fact better for you than any processed vegetable oil you'll find on the supermarket shelf).

I must add that too much fat at once has an adverse effect. Therefore I steer away from cream and too oily foods as they make me feel downright ill.

High GI carbs aren't bad, but again...anything in moderation. On the other side the odd refined carb-binge now and then isn't going to kill you as long as you don't do it all the time.

Since I've started fasting more I've also realised it does amazing things for one's er....libido....ahum.

 

[Minuend]

That's informative, Polaris.

Though, your mention of balance made me think. What does it mean? And do we really need balance?

Well, that depends on what balance is. We need more of some stuff, and less of other stuff.

What would you have changed about the LCHF diet? More carbs? Fruits? What would you add, what would you take away? What is an ideal way of eating?

Ed: As a side note: I had tummy issues with the bread, fruit, lots of water and low fat diet. It was like the "healthier" I ate, the worse it became. Now I realize that was probably due to some of the carbs as I feel gooder now. We'll see if it continues that way.

 

[Jah]

What do you consider a good balance?

Say 20g carbs a day? 50? 100?

Well, the thing about LCHF (I actually started on this yesterday as an experiment) is that you eat less automatically because you are full longer. I have noticed this, having previously become hungry about every 3 hours. Now I have gone 5 hours and my last meal could have contained more fat. I feel less need to eat in between because it's constantly like I just ate.

Now, I don't count. I just try to keep carbs at a minimum.

Btw, didn't you, Jah, mention that you didn't eat very often? What do you eat on a normal day?

I am planning on trying for at least a month to see if I notice any difference in energy level and amount of food I need to eat to stay full. I also want to see if I can get rid of the slight amount of fat I've gathered around my belly. I tried a low fat diet but didn't get any result, despite exercising 4-5 days a week.

I want to go on longer before I make up my mind whether it is a good approach or not. I also want to study it further.

One thing I gotta say though, eating like this makes things much more simpler. I like fatty foods (who doesn't?) ((well, actually, my mother doesn't too much)). So every meal becomes enjoyable because you can sprinkle it with bacon, butter, cream, cheese, mayonnaise etc.

And as wiki says, it doesn't increase your chance of, for instance, heart disease.

Yesterday I ate 4 crisp bread with butter and bacon infused cheese.
Low carb lasagna with squash
One small bite of cheese with butter on it
(And, of course I drank some water in between and a cup of coffee with cream)

And I wasn't hungry until 12 o'clock this morning. Which I find interesting.

ED: I want to add. I think the reason some get a bit overexcited is because they have tried loosing weight for so long without results and then BAM they start LCHF and get results quite quickly. And they want to "help" others. Kinda like door-to-door jews.

Btw, what could explain the increase in overweight people? Do really that many people stay inactive? Some publish studies that "could" link it to genes, but why this sudden increase in fat genes? Explaining it by blaming food is tempting, because it makes sense. But I shall not jump to (Mordor) conclusions, of course, it would be utterly ridiculous to do so with no basis.

Carbs.... around 100 grams, would be somewhat normal and balanced, in relation to what we evolved eating. (According to Captain Caveman, Mark Sisson. http://www.marksdailyapple.com/the-primal-carbohydrate-continuum/ )


However, as I mentioned, I don't think it really matters as long as the essentials are covered. (If you're going to emphasize any nutrient in order to lose weight/aid body re-composition: go for more protein; around 2 grams per kg ++ , This is due to the Thermal effect of digesting protein, as well as the increased satiety it brings. )



Personally, I eat one or two meals a day.
Big meals, though. (sometimes more than 2000 cals in one sitting.)
I try to make sure to get enough protein, Essential fatty acids and vitamins/minerals.

However, it's not the biggest deal, and I'll also go almost entirely vegan some days. (Based on my own experience, I think the Daily Values should be extended to 60 hours, or closer to three days. Then again; I'm no dietician, so I can't recommend anything, just tell you to research for yourself.)


Here's a thing, though:

Before you take the big leap into LCHF, Search for people who have followed this diet, and then Changed, look for the falsification of the theory, not just things that support it.

Last time I read, people are starting to drop off these diets including more carbohydrate (approx 100-150 grams daily, seems like a recurring level), and are finding their mental faculties restored alongside general health.




As for the ways of applying the whole High-Fat theory;
This is actually difficult, because you have to look for high-quality fat.
That means; No Trans-Fat, Countering any omega-6 with omega-3 (this unbalance is considered a source of much "diseases of civilization" et c. et.c.) which you'll easiest do through eliminating Vegetable Oils. (So, the Mayo you're so glad to have, will actually be furthering the unbalance of -3 vs. -6 )

The part about saturated fat is another thing: Saturated fat is actually not as dangerous as it was made up to be. (You need it to produce a lot of your body's signaling hormones etc. )
Gary Taubes has a lot to say about that, you'll find him on google.


The whole point being; Yes, there are some things to bring along, but you'll have to look deeper, find the flaws, tug the strings and seek more information.

It's not as plain as FAT > Carbohydrate.

Quality and bio-availability plays a part,
As do the whole range of effects the partitioning has.


Articles:


Carbohydrates: http://www.cutthecarb.com/goodbye-cutthecarb/


Why people get fatter:

http://recomp.com/blogma/2011/06/in...reased-energy-intake-at-the-population-level/

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2011/05/clarifications-about-carbohydrate-and.html#more



Btw. Here's more or less the direction I'm following:

www.leangains.com
with a short intro here:
http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3384358&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1


Other than that, pretty much as the articles Polaris posted.

Influenced by Mark Sisson, as he makes a compelling argument, especially surrounding grains, (which I'll only eat rarely and in moderation.); www.marksdailyapple.com


Fruit, you should actually keep limited, (that is, don't eat just fruit, it'll fuck with your liver; Foie Gras, or fatty liver, is a symptom of over-consumption of fruits (or rather, fructose))

The tummy-problems may well be from intolerance for grains.




So, the quick summa:

Eat a varied diet.
Eat plants,
Eat meat, fish, eggs, and other animals. (Can be avoided, but it's the easiest, most bio-available source of EAA and EFA)
Avoid the food that needs much processing in order for you to be able to ingest it.
Drink water (and coffee... which should have it's own thread.)
Keep sugar to a minimum. ( YouTube - ‪Sugar: The Bitter Truth‬‏ )
Exercise. (personal recommendation: High Intensity Training, HIT http://baye.com/ )


Be skeptical about all new "diets" that promise all sorts of things,
check out their scientific support, try to find the loose strings (and tug on them.)


Also, check out this one:

http://peerreviewradio.com/2011/05/forksvsfeet/

 

[Polaris]

That's informative, Polaris.

Though, your mention of balance made me think. What does it mean? And do we really need balance?

As usual, you ask some very good questions.....drats. Is the question related to food still, or are we going philosophical here?

I think balance is an important concept in relation to everything. Too much on one side of the scales will inevitably make it tip over.....: reaction of some kind. Can be fun for a while and quite the life-thrilling experiment. But our bodies can only tolerate so much. Once you have pushed too far, you'll know. Although one could argue most of us don't.

Well, that depends on what balance is. We need more of some stuff, and less of other stuff.

Yup.

What would you have changed about the LCHF diet? More carbs? Fruits? What would you add, what would you take away? What is an ideal way of eating?

Again, I refer to the Dr Mercola web site. There are articles there about individual body types, and how there is no such thing as the "universal ideal diet", something various governmental institutions have tried to push for years, to everyone's various levels of confusion and dismay.

As I mentioned before, my body type seems to reject too much fat in one hit, so I have to space it out. I eat butter, but a tub will usually last me for about four weeks. I rarely use cream in my hot chocolate any more as the combination of sugar, dairy and fat just causes revolt in my inner realms....

I tend to crave carbohydrates, so I think I do need some, but need to be sure that these carbohydrates are low GI and higher in fibre. Brown rice vs. white, for example. Feel much better and more energised on brown rice.

Bread: no more than one slice a day, and always high in fibre. I try to make my own bread as Australian bread is a bit like the British stuff: insubstantial fluff.

When I buy meat, I try to buy organic and free-range. I actually started buying kangaroo-meat as it is less energy consuming (environmentally), and it's very nice. I eat meat perhaps 3 or 4 times weekly, and I pick the non-"heart-smart" stuff with sufficient fat-marbling. It tastes so much better too. Less sauces needed.

Tangential recipe: I like herb-butter on my steak: mix butter with crushed garlic, lemon juice and fresh herbs, roll into foil and chill. Cut into chunky slices and add to steak, cooked med/rare. Yum.

Ed: As a side note: I had tummy issues with the bread, fruit, lots of water and low fat diet. It was like the "healthier" I ate, the worse it became. Now I realize that was probably due to some of the carbs as I feel gooder now. We'll see if it continues that way.

I think a sudden switch to a radically different diet can make anyone feel like crap. Also most breads contain yeast, perhaps you reacted to the yeast? Fruit adds further carbohydrate-fuel to the fermenting process....result: ouch.

And make sure to drink all that water before you eat. (If you are going to drink a lot in one hit, I mean). In that way, your lower stomach valve is still open so that all that water can pass through your system and do its work. When you commence eating, the chewing action will send messages to your brain for your stomach valve to close, and if you then drink lots of water afterwards......aargh.

Too.......full....

 

[Architect]

Moderation kills. Balance kills. High fat diet kills.

Eat a high fat diet and measure your white blood cell count afterwards, it's high. Why? Because of a immune system response in the endothelial cell lining of your blood vessels; you just walked that much further down the path of a heart attack. The nitroglycerine production in that critical cell lining is disrupted, plaques form and your arteries clog.

Before you indulge in a high meat and or high fat diet please read any book by Dr Caldwell Esstylsten (Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease). After that read Dr Dean Ornish (Eat More Weigh Less), Dr Colin Campbell (The China Study), or John McDougall (many, see http://www.drmcdougall.com/books_tapes.html)

Taken a look at Bill Clinton lately?

YouTube - ‪Bill Clinton became a vegan, lost 24 pounds, healing himself by not ingesting any cholesterol.‬‏

 

[Minuend]

(Actually that comment was regarding your post in it wholeness)

As usual, you ask some very good questions.....drats. Is the question related to food still, or are we going philosophical here?

Well, if we are going philosophical, I'm against the "balance" concept. I do not believe that that the different traits in males and females makes them balanced. In nature, some species perish, other gain more ground. It does not stand still "in balance". Same for our climate. In life, many would gain more from having more positive experiences than bad ones. Good and bad are not balanced out between people. Some actually do have more positive traits than others.

Or perhaps "balance" is just a label we apply when everything stands still, regardless of it's actual possession of an inner ear.

To illustrate, one can even rationalize why the change of climate is, indeed, balanced. Which just shows how redundant such a term is to life.

I think balance is an important concept in relation to everything. Too much on one side of the scales will inevitably make it tip over.....: reaction of some kind. Can be fun for a while and quite the life-thrilling experiment. But our bodies can only tolerate so much. Once you have pushed too far, you'll know. Although one could argue most of us don't.

But what is too much?

I have browsed a couple of lchf forums, and some have been on this diet (by which I mean life style) for years and still feel fine. I believe you can go the rest of your life with a carb intake on, say 40-150g daily. At least 70% is fat.

LCHF is a "normal" way of living, it's not an extreme. I argue it is as valid as the high carbs, low fat diet, which is the official approved diet.

Why some consider it an extreme still is because we have been told fat is lethal and dangerous. When you then enter a room with a bacon and cream sandwich and claim it's healthy, people cant believe it. The fear of fat is rooted deep. Which is no oddity as few officials seem to be too eager to correct this mistake.

For the body to get used to getting it's main energy from fat, not carbs, there is a few days where you might feel a bit sick, dizzy or the like. But all this disappears quickly.

Inuits are an example of some who has lived on a LCHF diet without choosing to do so, and without lacking in health. Obviously, plants don't grow that well in the Arctic, so they eat a lot of animals.

Here's more info: The Inuit Paradox

These foods hardly make up the “balanced” diet most of us grew up with, and they look nothing like the mix of grains, fruits, vegetables, meat, eggs, and dairy we’re accustomed to seeing in conventional food pyramid diagrams.

Again, I refer to the Dr Mercola web site. There are articles there about individual body types, and how there is no such thing as the "universal ideal diet", something various governmental institutions have tried to push for years, to everyone's various levels of confusion and dismay.

Well, I found this

Which concludes (for you lazy asses who can't read two pages ((not you polaris!!))):

Conclusion

A critical reading of the current literature certainly supports the dietary trends of decreased carbohydrate intake (especially of neocarbs), increased protein intake, and increased fat intake (especially of monounsaturates and N-3 polyunsaturates). The data that supports these contentions comes from a wide spectrum of disciplines, including the basic sciences, medical science, epidemiology, and anthropology.[...]

There was a lot of interesting stuff there, like why grains really are bad for you, and it's not just the carbs.

As I mentioned before, my body type seems to reject too much fat in one hit, so I have to space it out. I eat butter, but a tub will usually last me for about four weeks. I rarely use cream in my hot chocolate any more as the combination of sugar, dairy and fat just causes revolt in my inner realms....

If you have a lot of carbs + a lot of fat, it probably won't feel too good. And as I mentioned, your body has been processing carbs for years, getting used to the increased amount of fat takes at least a few days depending on how drastically you get rid of carbs.

I tend to crave carbohydrates, so I think I do need some, but need to be sure that these carbohydrates are low GI and higher in fibre. Brown rice vs. white, for example. Feel much better and more energised on brown rice.

Ah, but doesn't your body also crave chocolate and smoke?

Though, that sounds reasonable. You are never completely without carbs in low carbs diet, tho.

When I buy meat, I try to buy organic and free-range. I actually started buying kangaroo-meat as it is less energy consuming (environmentally), and it's very nice. I eat meat perhaps 3 or 4 times weekly, and I pick the non-"heart-smart" stuff with sufficient fat-marbling. It tastes so much better too. Less sauces needed.

Yes, the article clearly states that animals eating other stuff than grains give you better nutriment. Grains are bad for us, and it is bad for our meat (cows) to eat.

Tangential recipe: I like herb-butter on my steak: mix butter with crushed garlic, lemon juice and fresh herbs, roll into foil and chill. Cut into chunky slices and add to steak, cooked med/rare. Yum.

Tangential reply: This sounds interesting, I have no idea what herb-butter is tho. Except the obvious "butter with herb in it". Is it an Australian thing?

I think a sudden switch to a radically different diet can make anyone feel like crap. Also most breads contain yeast, perhaps you reacted to the yeast? Fruit adds further carbohydrate-fuel to the fermenting process....result: ouch.

My low fat diet was a gradual change. I gradually cut down on sweets and fat. In the end I even stopped having butter on my bread. But my stomach became worse. I think I've been living quite "healthy" for the last one and a half year, when I moved back home and mum made dinner for me. We also got fruit at work every day.

And make sure to drink all that water before you eat. (If you are going to drink a lot in one hit, I mean). In that way, your lower stomach valve is still open so that all that water can pass through your system and do its work. When you commence eating, the chewing action will send messages to your brain for your stomach valve to close, and if you then drink lots of water afterwards......aargh.

Too.......full....

Did not know. I usually have one glass with every meal and if I'm thirsty. I also drink before exercising to "fill up".

 

[Jordan~]

I totally ignore the content of whatever I put in my mouth, eat little enough to remain aesthetically pleasing, and hope that they'll be able to give me better parts before these ones break down. I think I'd stop smoking before I started giving a shit about my diet.

Why eat cheese without bread? How would life be worth living? If I could pick one thing to eat for the rest of my life it'd be bread. It wouldn't be a very long life, but at least it would be a bread-filled one.

Dieting is just... boring. If I want a pizza I will eat a pizza goddammit, and if my body can't deal with it then it'll just have to man up and grow a backbone. So far it can deal with it, but I think that may be because I'm 18 and seemingly invulnerable. I really hope that never ends.

 

[Minuend]

Architect, I already told you there is no evidence supporting a correlation between LCHF and heart problems.

They who believe so are probably still attached to the idea that a simple cholesterol test can tell you if you have a greater chance of getting a heart attack. Which is false as we have good and bad cholesterol. I have heard no other findings that should correlate those two.

How much protein you can process isn't entirely clear, but the article mention that it probably shouldn't be more than 35-40% of your diet (if I remember correctly).

Those who follow the LCHF rarely have that high protein intake, though. So far my protein intake has been stable at 10-13%, with one exception being 27% (when I ate lasagna). I could probable increase my protein a little.

 

[Jordan~]

Augh how do you keep track of this without killing yourself?
I've just realised what hell is: a conversation with a dietitian-economist.
My diet is about 75% food, 25% miscellaneous additives. And I'm confident that I'll be in perfect health until I'm 30, whereupon I'll immediately drop dead.

 

[Minuend]

Jordan: I was like you when I was your age. I burned of anything I ate, looked amazing (well, I wasn't muscular or anything, tho Polaris' link tells us big muscles ages our cells). Then after a while, I slowly started gaining weight, especially on my tummy. But I decided to take action when I noticed about a 8kg increase. ((I think my constant bloatedness gave me an extra kg)).

Whether you choose to care is entirely your choice, what convinced me was reading up on it. Realizing what I was actually doing to my body. On a side note, ~~~ gave me some notes about the INTP from a book and it says that around it's twenties (I think) it becomes more preoccupied with the physical world and, among other things, exercise and nutriment. (I think I just made this sound like a midlife crisis). I found that interesting.

The pros about eating well is better physical and mental health. You are more stable in your mood, you have more energy, feel less tired. You decrease the chance of diabetes, heart problems, metabolic syndrome, overweight, teeth problems (tribes who eat high fat usually have very little tooth problems even though they don't brush their teeth).

Btw when I use "diet" I don't imply weight reduction. My main goal is not to loose weight. I also find it more beneficial to focus on what I can eat. And when I can eat eggs, bacon, butter, fat souses and cream- I don't miss coke and pizza at all. Though there is low carbs pizza for those who desire. My point is, there is so amazingly much tasty food within LCHF that you don't need treats. Everything you eat is a treat!

Okay, I might have started to become slightly biased. But my sources are valid! LCHF might not be perfect, but I believe it's a step in the right direction.

 

[Minuend]

Well, at least you get to experience life in your best years.

Oh, I use a Norwegian calculator. I just fill in how much I have eaten of this and that and it shows me statistics.

Err, a web based one, not all our calculators have that function...

I'm not planning on keeping notes on everything I eat forever, but I find it very interesting to see the percentage and amount of the various stuff. There is also a list of all the vitamins, so I can tell if I'm lacking something. So far I am not. I have seen some take additional vitamins, but I don't see the point of that. With wiki, it should be easy to find that vitamin source you need.

 

[Jordan~]

Oh, I'm an INFP anyway. The only reason I would diet is to lose weight, but when I say "diet" I really mean "stop eating". I used to be 10 stone at 6'2" (63.5 kg at 188 cm), but that was when I was depressed and didn't really eat unless food was put in front of me. Now I'm about 11 stone (70 kg) and happy enough with that. I might start swimming to tone up a little. Really, the only interest I take in my body is in it looking good, and it's not going to once I stop being young anyway, so when my body decides it would no longer be useful in the wild and stops making a serious effort to live I think I'll just roll with it. Unless I can get a new body or be safely cryogenically frozen by then, in which case I'll do that.

I'm pretty aware of what I'm doing to my body. I know I ought to be a lot less fit than I actually am - I can't really run for more than 30 seconds without the aftermath being pathetic, but my blood pressure is the medical definition of perfect, binge drinking hasn't adversely affected my liver and smoking hasn't damaged my lungs. It'll all start to unravel eventually, but by then I'd just be pushing a rope up a hill anyway. Perhaps by good luck in the genetic lottery - or just average luck, I also inherited a disposition towards depression and ADHD - I seem to have one of those bodies that can't be damaged until it gets old.

If the future doesn't provide solutions to any health problems I'm creating now it'll be a total letdown. Fingers crossed for the singularity happening in the 2030s, by the time I have gout I should be able to restore myself to pristine condition. Otherwise I'd not really have much interest in living in the future anyway. When I was depressed people were always saying, "Do some exercise," or, "Eat better," but that seemed to me like it'd be exactly the same sort of mollification that I got from the meds, and I'd rather have just stayed on the meds. I wasn't depressed because I didn't exercise and because I ate junk, I was depressed because life seemed hollow, meaningless and deeply undesirable. You don't take an overdose because you're not going for a jog every day or eating enough fresh vegetables, you do it because you can't see any point in even wanting to be happy. And it was a mixture of medication and finding new reasons to live that brought me back from that - I found reasons to be happy, rather than just doing things that tricked me into believing that there was something to be happy about.

I'm not that worried about not being able to eat things. I'm already a vegetarian for moral reasons, so I'm fine with spurning food groups. I eat pizza because it's convenient - take it out of its packaging, put it in the oven for 11 minutes, take it out, slice it, put it on a plate and the biological chore of eating is done. I'm kind of resentful of the fact that I have biological necessities to begin with, so I just try to pay as little attention to them as possible. Though I would probably be a vegan if cheese weren't just so damn good.

Maybe when I have a lover or even dogs I'll feel differently, since I'll probably want to be in good health for them, but I don't really have any inclination to remain in good health for myself. I'm either going to live long enough to be immortal or I'm not; in the latter case I'm not that bothered about putting off the inevitable.

 

[Yet]

I just eat what I fancy ... that works for me, keeps me fit & thin.

Maybe I am just lucky cause I do not like crapy pre-fab food. I usually get groceries from the health store and like to cook.
fish, bread & veg are favourites
love summer fruits

 

[Minuend]

Damn, I wrote you a reply, Jordan, I suppose I didn't post it?

Oh well, I didn't write anything important. I find your perspective interesting.

 

[Jordan~]

Doesn't look like it, no!

 

[Jah]

Strange:
Why don't we have a sub-forum for diet ?




Anyway;

Here's what to read on fat (and heart disease):
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/07/magazine/what-if-it-s-all-been-a-big-fat-lie.html
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=carbs-against-cardio
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=which-has-a-greater-influ
http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode.cfm?id=13AA6A22-E7F2-99DF-3AB56F85502ACBE4
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/saturated-fat-healthy/

Oh, and the critical voice against Gary Taubes:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=thin-body-of-evidence-why-i-have-do-2011-05-16


Protein:
http://www.wannabebig.com/diet-and-...ch-protein-the-body-can-use-in-a-single-meal/


Salt?:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=its-time-to-end-the-war-on-salt


Some summation of general Myths about diet:
http://www.menshealth.com/mhlists/food_myths/index.php


And, of course; The China Study:
http://rawfoodsos.com/the-china-study/

Vegetarians and Heart Disease:
http://rawfoodsos.com/2011/01/06/vegetarians-and-heart-disease/


Oh, and here's another list of diet-suggestions (By another Doctor.): http://www.archevore.com/get-started/

 

[Minuend]

Awesome!

 

[Polaris]

(Actually that comment was regarding your post in it wholeness)

Ah....ok. I could probably have done a better job of it though as I tend to write just what's on top of my head and not edit...

Well, if we are going philosophical, I'm against the "balance" concept. I do not believe that that the different traits in males and females makes them balanced.

I tend to agree to a certain point. Intuitively. But then, what traits exactly are we talking about? Physical or mental, or both? Do you mean "balance" within males/females individually? I think we were "balanced" from a natural basis, but that society, culture, religion, etc. have somehow upset that balance. Or perhaps equilibrium would be a better term. Equilibrium does not necessarily imply a static condition, as you are probably aware from the chemistry you've been studying. And perhaps we need to take this discussion elsewhere, I'm interested in your perspective. Perhaps time for another pm, hmmm.

In nature, some species perish, other gain more ground. It does not stand still "in balance". Same for our climate.

True. Nothing is static really, when you start looking at the finer motorics of natural systems. But the behaviour of elements is to try to reach some kind of equilibrium. That does not necessarily mean what we regard as "balance" as a result. It could mean total disaster. as the system will go through "revolt" before it stabilises. This is getting rather abstract, sorry. Climate change is just one of these "reactions". The changing of climatic conditions we do regard as an imbalance, compared to what previous climate history can tell us (limited data causes some bias here, too). But that is just the human perspective of imbalance. Really, it is just a very complex system adjusting itself. The repercussions can kill. So what? Do we care? Some do. I tend to have a conservatioinist view, as I'd like to preserve what I regard as important for the health of species. I also think that it would be better if the human race just went through a major catastrophic event which eradicated all stupidity and left all the smarter ones to rule. such as us.....haha.

In life, many would gain more from having more positive experiences than bad ones. Good and bad are not balanced out between people. Some actually do have more positive traits than others.

Yes. It depends on the individual though. No "good" and "bad" are not balanced. But then we could get all philosophical over what is good and bad, and how would it effect different people. I believe a lot of crap has been beneficial to some extent for me. I wouldn't be the person I am now if not. I think it has made me more compassionate. I think.....

Or perhaps "balance" is just a label we apply when everything stands still, regardless of it's actual possession of an inner ear.

But....does anything stand still?

To illustrate, one can even rationalize why the change of climate is, indeed, balanced. Which just shows how redundant such a term is to life.

Yes.

But what is too much?

Too much in my view is when you start to have a negative effect. Disease, etc. It does not feel good, and going back to the topic....(sorry about tangent), I know when I have had too much of something. My physique will tell me.

I have browsed a couple of lchf forums, and some have been on this diet (by which I mean life style) for years and still feel fine. I believe you can go the rest of your life with a carb intake on, say 40-150g daily. At least 70% is fat.

Yes, and I think that this is true for individual body types. Genetic make-up, climate, evolution, geography...all those factors play a role. I just wonder how this type of diet will affect coming generations. You can feel fine, but that does not mean there are no adverse effects building up over time, or even through generations. Just because I feel fine now, does not mean that whatever I'm doing now isn't going to have a radical effect later in life. This is where it gets tricky. In the future I can see scientific innovations that will be able to "read" your body type and current health fairly accurately, and be able to make predictions and recommendations as to how you should be optimising your lifestyle/diet/etc in order to have a longer life span. I think there are innovations like that already in use, although they need to be improved for safety reasons. This is where genetic research becomes interesting. We have mapped the entire human genome....the possibilities.....

http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/Human_Genome/home.shtml

LCHF is a "normal" way of living, it's not an extreme. I argue it is as valid as the high carbs, low fat diet, which is the official approved diet.

Why some consider it an extreme still is because we have been told fat is lethal and dangerous. When you then enter a room with a bacon and cream sandwich and claim it's healthy, people cant believe it. The fear of fat is rooted deep. Which is no oddity as few officials seem to be too eager to correct this mistake.

Yes. I agree. Until further research shows otherwise......argh.

Here's more info: The Inuit Paradox

I'm familiar with this. It is very interesting.

Well, I found this

I can't get that link to work for some reason...

Ah, but doesn't your body also crave chocolate and smoke?

Yes...sometimes it craves chocolate....but is chocolate that bad? I used to smoke. But I believe it was more a stress-thing. I smoked perhaps a packet a week, if that. I would binge-smoke if going out to party, mostly for social reasons. Makes me wonder about this so-called "addictive" personality myth...I think it has more to do with the psyche.

Though, that sounds reasonable. You are never completely without carbs in low carbs diet, tho.

No, we need "brain-food". And since I have such a large brain, I need large amounts of low GI carbs.....

Tangential reply: This sounds interesting, I have no idea what herb-butter is tho. Except the obvious "butter with herb in it". Is it an Australian thing?

No. I actually learnt that recipe when working at a restaurant in Svalbard.....
You just chop fresh parsley, mint, coriander, etc and blend it in with the butter. It goes green....

My low fat diet was a gradual change. I gradually cut down on sweets and fat. In the end I even stopped having butter on my bread. But my stomach became worse. I think I've been living quite "healthy" for the last one and a half year, when I moved back home and mum made dinner for me. We also got fruit at work every day.

Good old mum..... As you said, the refined sugar is wise to avoid. When I was little we had our own fruit trees and berries. It was great. It never used to give me any trouble. However, when I buy fruit from the supermarket here, it tastes like water and sometimes I get reflux eating it. It has turned me off fruit. If I can get good quality in-season fruit that has ripened properly, I'm ususally all right. I don't know if the too early picking of fruit, plus all the chemicals used in their growing and processing is such a great thing. There are a lot of resources out there on the benefits of eating "organically", but very few scientifically backed articles on the subject. The conspiracy-theorist in me is smelling a rat....but I won't go there....

Don't know if this was helpful at all. I've probably just contributed to more confusion.

 

[nanook]

lost 46 pounds last year (april to november) and was able to hold the weight (going up and down in a spectrum of 5 pounds) until know. i still eat low carb, except for days with chocolate and days with dried fruits, but couldn't get myself to continually reduce the calories again, since november, although i want to loose another ... idk ... there is probably 20 pounds of junk left on my skeleton.

more than 10 years ago i lost 40 pounds with a low fat diet. horrible. i was brain-dead for a year. low carb does it without hunger and other starvation symptoms. ketosis rocks. eating 100 grams of almonds in the morning, riding bicycle all day long (casually). not being hungry in the evening.


its not always easy to keep the metabolism in that optimal state, though. i sure have experienced what they call the Atkins-flu.

my long term goal is pretty much a paleo style (no more that 130g of carbs), except i wish i could do without meat.

right now, i eat lots of cheese, eggs, some protein powder, tons of nuts. fish. rarely meat. but cheese is not so great. ( i eat much more than that, i just list my major "meat replacements")

since i have no real kitchen, i don't mess around with difficult stuff like vegetables.

over all it's far from optimal, but it's also the best diet i ate, ever.

i ate the western-supermarked diet and it killed me in many ways. killed my gut lining, and my brain by means of intoxication. i was so drugged, i wasn't even lucid enough to realize that i was intoxicated by food. i blamed it on ADS and one or two addictions, like caffeine, but it was everything together. i also felt like there is no other food available, some how. i felt like buying nasi goren was a healthy choice and it must be my fault, that i feel sick. i just wasn't suspicious enough about the toxic oils and the glutamate and the soy and all the trash they put into everything.

but then i skipped everything together. i ate mostly nuts. some eggs. some protein powder. and coca cola - with sugar - and chocolate - for a year before i started true low carb with ketosis and before i began to have weight loss success. the 'nutty' year already healed me from most of my symptoms. (no peanunts - no legumes)

 

[Lot]

I used to be rather unthoughtful of my diet. I lived with a nutritionist for a year and a half (ESTP) and he was was rather thoughtful and convinced me that it's of my best interest to atleast know what I'm eating. I would eat better now but I'm rather poor and I like my beer and tobacco. I have done alot of research into the LCHF ideas and I've been convinced. I've seen alot of people loose weight and I myself tried it, even though I'm 20 lbs under weight, and I felt really good. I still try to eat less carbs and more fat, mostly because I stay full longer and being poor this is quite a plus. The only thing that I've found to be a problem is muscle wasting on a ketogenic diet. This can be fixed by highering the protein amount. Plus the excess protein gets turned into glucose which the brain so loves to eat. From what I've seen there are many populations that live on an all meat diet rather healthily but on the other side I've seen vegetarian groups live rather well as health is concerned. Genetics is the key factor. And as heart disease goes, that is more a matter of stress, unbalance between LDL (both main types) and HDL, and exerciser. Animal fats are fine, and easier to process because they are already in the form you need. Plant sources are good for you as well and you often times find more omega 3's in them then in meat. I love pork, but I make sure to take my fish oil (got it on discount from the ESTP) need to keep those fatty acids balanced. On a side note, if it weren't for ramen noodles and potatoes I think I would die.

So to get back to the point I think you need to eat according to your genetics and situation, both fiscally and geographically. And if you want to eat what ever I think that's fine because if it weren't for me indulging in beer and candy I would die in my spirit, and that's no way to live. Just realize that the way you treat your body now has long lasting effects in the future.

I almost forgot about probiotics. What do you guys think about that whole idea? I use kambucha, kefer, and miso to help with that stuff. I find I have better poops when I use these. I wonder if I can use this as a cause or correlation.