Learned helplessness, source of many of our downfalls?

[MattKelevra]

I was doing some psych research on brainwashing actually and ran across this concept.

I'm gonna paraphrase what I remember of the experiment that showcased it. Several groups of dogs were set up to be shocked in cages. One group could end the shocks if they hit a button. For the other group, nothing could stop the shocks. The group that could end it learned to hit the buttons as soon as the pain came, eventually, the other group would just stop fighting and simply lie there when the shocks came..

When placed in a new environment in cages next to each other with buttons, the first group would not even attempt to find a way to escape or end the shocks, they would simply lay there, even after seeing the other dog in the cage next to them end their shocks.

This manifests itself even in humans. Try something a few times and fail, our mind begins to think it just isn't possible for us. When we get new chances, we don't even try anymore because we no longer believe we have the power to change our environment or situation like we once did, even if we might time around.

This can lead to lack of trying romantically, or socially for those who have had bad experiences at some point.

I'd think this kind of downfall for so many things may be especially present in us as we tend to overanalyze things and be pretty self critical of failure.

 

[bananaphallus]

It's depressing to think a large part of who I am as a person is essentially the result of conditioned response(s). Why is an awareness of this as being a possibility not enough to overcome it? Or am I just lazy?

- Sammy Sosa

 

[Dormouse]

I wonder how long it takes to de-program oneself...

I heard somewhere it takes twenty days to make a habit, but I doubt that would be a sufficient amount of time to break patterns that have been crafted by years of conditioning.

 

[MattKelevra]

I'm actually trying to deprogram myself now after reading about it and some other things. Realization isn't enough though. Need a strong, I dare say emotional motivation and desire to change things in addition to that awareness.

It's actually been the most productive past 3 days I've had in years. Still notice a lot of things I wish I'd done differently at the end of the day or chances/opportunities I failed to take without even considering them.

 

[White Rabbit]

I'm actually trying to deprogram myself now after reading about it and some other things. Realization isn't enough though. Need a strong, I dare say emotional motivation and desire to change things in addition to that awareness.

It's actually been the most productive past 3 days I've had in years. Still notice a lot of things I wish I'd done differently at the end of the day or chances/opportunities I failed to take without even considering them.

I wish you all the good luck with this. I'm sure you will accomplish something to a certain degree at least, if you just try. I went through deprogramming while curing addiction, and I find it easier to attempt to deprogram something as long as I know it will have an overall positive effect on me (which is often a good motivator at the same time). However, there are so many traits or ways of thinking I developed in response to fearful and violent environment. I find these to be the main obstacle in uncovering my real potential, that's been pushed all the way back with negative feedback to expressing my real self for a very long time.

I'd say INTPs have a great ability to pinpoint the area that needs development, it's usually just the proper motivation that's needed.

 

[fullerene]

interesting.... I wish I had more time to respond to this, but I shouldn't touch this forum for another week or so (ridiculous amount of work due next week). I second the good luck, though, and will tuck the results of that experiment away in my head for future processing. Studies like this are what I love about psychology. They're so... rich, with material to process.

 

[flow]

This study sounds unbelievably unethical. I'm assuming/hoping it's from the 1940s. If they really were shocking dogs to see how they'd respond, I'd think Peta would be all over it. Fucking cruel!

 

[Moocow]

If you want to fight your conditioning, a good place to start is by meditating properly. I know that isn't the most exciting suggestion, but it's extremely useful.
Just forcing yourself to sit down and do nothing is already fighting the conditioning that says "YOU MUST BE DOING SOMETHING AT ALL TIMES!" As you sit, just watch your thoughts and you'll see repeating motivations popping up all over the place, then simply choose not to obey them.

For example, this is usually the stream of motives that occurs in my mind at first. All of which are conditioned into me from the past:
"This is boring, go do something interesting." Why do I need to? Nope.
"You could be using this spare time for something else, like guitar." I'll have spare time later, so nope.
"Move your leg over a bit, it's not comfortable." The discomfort will fade. Won't do it. Maybe in a few minutes if it doesn't.
"Scratch that itch." It's just a sensation... I don't HAVE to scratch it just now.
"Go eat something!" This is a "bored" compulsion I have, and therefore a good idea to ignore.
"Ok you've adequately observed your motives. Time for something else" Tricky, but no. Must keep going.

You get the idea. It's just like the old angel/devil on the shoulder cliché, except I'll go for as long as I can without acting upon the suggestion of either. The longer I sit there observing my conditioning as it's pushing me to take actions, the more control and discipline I feel like I really have. After meditating for 30 minutes or more in the morning, the self control and awareness practiced with it lasts for most of the day. If it starts to diminish, I just meditate again.
Fighting your own conditioning is far from easy though and a lot of the time I have trouble simply forcing myself to START meditating at all.

 

[UppyDownyMouth]

I'd think this kind of downfall for so many things may be especially present in us as we tend to overanalyze things and be pretty self critical of failure.

I definitely agree we as a group seem to be prone to this. Thanks for sharing the study I think it has the potential to really help people realise that keeping hope, whilst not always easy thing to do is paramount to success.

Currently searching for a new job is getting to me. Ive barely started but because of past failure I seem reluctant to even try, despite having made huge improvements to my portfolio over the last year.

“The first step toward success is taken when you refuse to be a captive of the environment in which you first find yourself.”
Mark Caine

“Success is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm.”
Winston Churchill

“To succeed in life, you need two things: ignorance and confidence.”
Mark Twain

* Ignorance and confidence probably two things INTPs are known for having the opposite of...

 

[RobertJ]

It's depressing to think a large part of who I am as a person is essentially the result of conditioned response(s). Why is an awareness of this as being a possibility not enough to overcome it? Or am I just lazy?

- Sammy Sosa

Sammy Sosa said that?

 

[Cavallier]

"Ok you've adequately observed your motives. Time for something else" Tricky, but no. Must keep going.

Sometimes we think to much.

I have noticed this defeatist behavior in a friend of mine who shoots down all ideas for improving her current situation with reasons why they won't work. Yes, you have decide which courses of action will work best but to not even try is sad. Nothing will ever change by giving up. Sometimes the only option that might work is an uncomfortable one but her response to that is: Yeah, but you've always been strong. I don't think I could do it. Ugh. That's crap! Make yourself strong!

/rant

This conversation with my friend has helped me to see my own hopelessness and defeatest behavior. I needs must work on this!

 

[Moocow]

Sometimes we think to much.

I have noticed this defeatist behavior in a friend of mine who shoots down all ideas for improving her current situation with reasons why they won't work. Yes, you have decide which courses of action will work best but to not even try is sad. Nothing will ever change by giving up. Sometimes the only option that might work is an uncomfortable one but her response to that is: Yeah, but you've always been strong. I don't think I could do it. Ugh. That's crap! Make yourself strong!

/rant

This conversation with my friend has helped me to see my own hopelessness and defeatest behavior. I needs must work on this!

I wonder if it has anything to do with wanting total independence? Some people seem to shoot down any advice simply because they didn't consider or decide on it first, and don't like "borrowing" ideas.
I know I've rejected or argued suggestions and advice from people, only to turn around and decide to follow it later. I just didn't want to admit that I needed help at the time.
Seems rather of arrogant of me, in retrospect.

 

[Da Blob]

Hmmm I actually know a lot about this topic - at least relatively speaking. Carol Dweck and her colleagues came up with the concept in the eighties. Although initially it was employed to explain the motivation to achieve and the differences in internal or external motivations to achieve. Internally motivated children often have a mastery-orientation towards challenges while externally motivated children often develop an attitude of 'learned helplessness' when faced with a challenge.
Dweck's concept was elaborated upon to explain the psychological condition known as the "Victim's Stance". This attitude is actually encouraged by our current society and there are many adults who have embraced this learned helplessness as a component of a social role as the "Perpetual Victim". It is amazing how those who maintain a "Victim's Stance" are so highly regarded by our society. Even some of the wealthiest and best educated Americans maintain the "Victim's Stance" as their social role in society. It has become quite fashionable and profitable to be considered a victim. Victims seem to acquire an entire set of entitlements through employment of 'learned helplessness".

 

[walfin]

Would the dogs press the button if they were taught to do so?

Do we lift up the helpless or gloat at them?

Victim blaming is ever so easy. Certainly some people make a career of being victimised. Not everyone is that way.

 

[Da Blob]

Would the dogs press the button if they were taught to do so?

Do we lift up the helpless or gloat at them?

Victim blaming is ever so easy. Certainly some people make a career of being victimised. Not everyone is that way.

Actually there is something called "Attribution Re-Training" that teaches victims how to acquire a mastery orientation as opposed to the victim orientation. It can empower one to take control of one's life and quit blaming the environment for failure by assuming responsibility for one's condition.

 

[boradicus]

Would the dogs press the button if they were taught to do so?

Do we lift up the helpless or gloat at them?

Victim blaming is ever so easy. Certainly some people make a career of being victimised. Not everyone is that way.

Yes, I agree that to whatever extent possible one should attempt to retrain his/her thinking and behavior in order to adapt. Unfortunately there are times when the world is not a friendly place and when the scarring is so deep that due to the general dissolution and dispersion of confidence and resolve that some outside help is required even though through accurate self-assessment one is quite aware of one's predicament. If you have never been there, this may be difficult to comprehend; however, if we look at abuse and the resulting damage it may cause, and at the behavioral response to healing from abuse, we see in essence that the behavioral prescription requires the inculcation of new habit-structures that support paradigms that are positively reinforcing and healthy. However, in order to accomplish transitions to new habits when one is in an environment neither conducive to forming new routines nor the establishment of any sort of healthy regime, intervention or a shift in circumstances at some level can become necessary.

Essentially, as in the case of say a person with hoarding disorder, the healthy need to catalog and collect useful things becomes unwieldy and unhealthy when the energy requisite to such an enterprise is surpassed and dissipated. The individual, having profound attachment to their collection is now in emotional deficit to its removal, the result of which will further dispose of their remaining energy and motivation. Think of the man lying in the pit by the road after he was attacked by a band of robbers - only the Good Samaritan took an interest in him, and if it had not been so, surely he would have died.