Keyboard layouts

[boku]

Was thinking if any INTPs have wondered why the letters on the Qwerty keyboard are placed like that.

Even after 6 years of using the computer, I could not touch type, the placement of the letters just doesn't make sense to me and doesn't give a nice 'flow' to typing. Frustrated, I searched online for other keyboard layouts. It came up with Dvorak and Colemak. Tried out Dvorak for a few days, before I realised that there's one flaw to it. The keyboard shortcuts are everywhere! cntrl + z/x/c/v... Gosh, I can't imagine my life without them. I ended up switching to a lesser known keyboard layout, colemak. Only 17 letters are rearranged, all but one letter from the bottom row switched, keeping most of the shortcut keys still in their same position. The caps lock key is also replaced with the backspace key, making editting of mistakes much easier.
http://colemak.com/Learn

Took me about 3 weeks of cold turkey during the school holidays and I was able to touch type. It was daunting at first, I wondered if my efforts would pay off and in the end I'm glad it did. My current typing speed is only 60wpm though, but compared to the 40wpm when I was still on qwerty, I'm not complaining. It's a plus to be able to type in the dark when my parents expect me to be asleep too.

Downside to it is that I have to install it on other computers before being able to use it unlike Dvorak, or I'll have to revert back to Qwerty. Not like I use other people's computer that often... It keeps out people from hijacking your computer too, I had fun watching my friends struggle with Colemak and asking me to switch the layout back to Qwerty. Those who already have a fast typing speed on Qwerty might not benefit from Colemak as much as I do though.

So... What are your thoughts about keyboard layouts?

 

[Jules]

I believe the QWERTY layout is from the typewriter age. It prevented the typewriter from getting stuck because of people typing too fast.

I actually have two typist diploma's or whatever it's called. I don't type with ten fingers, I usually use about 8 fingers.. the pinky isn't used that often.
I do type blind most of the time. And pretty fast as well.
I have typed on AZERTY keyboards for a small period of time... but to me that was just a different system to get used to. Not a real problem, just took some getting used to.

 

[MrJones]

Had I not already gotten used to QWERTY layout over the past 20yrs I might be inclined to dissect the layout. Never understood the principles behind the key placement, but I type over 80wpm with 100% accuracy, so I'm not too concerned.

 

[EditorOne]

"I believe the QWERTY layout is from the typewriter age. It prevented the typewriter from getting stuck because of people typing too fast."

Bingo. Since each key involves a long arm rising up to strike through a portal, the letters are actually cleverly arranged so that common combinations allow the first letter to draw out of the way before the next one arrives. Otherwise you end up with two, three or more keys all literally wedged into the space intended for one, which could still happen if you really got cracking.

It is a variation on form following function, with the mechanical heart of the device actually being the function this time and the form of the keyboard following it because of what amount to simple mechanics.

Newsrooms used to be noisy places, because each keystroke was a "pop" on the paper as the key hit it, then a bell would ring when you got near the end of the line and you'd reach up and smack the lever that moved the carriage back to the left and moved the paper up a line, kind of a thud-zip. Put 30 reporters together in one room on deadline and it sounded pretty neat, bells going off 20 a minute and the old guys flying along with the two-finger technique, a cigarette dangling from their lip, eyes squinting as the smoke got into them, and a phone cradled to their ear and held in place by one raised shoulder. Like a lunatic asylum for hunchbacks or something.

The old manual typewriters had an additional benefit: You ended up with strong hands. They worked off mechanical leverage, of course, but on old clunky ones you had to put quite a bit of pop into it when typing.

I am indulging in description here for the benefit of the many folks I sense are too young to have actually seen a typewriter in action. :-)

 

[Ermine]

I haven't tried any other keyboard, but I still find this format useful. A lot of common words are easily formed because the most used letters are within reach of the pointer and middle fingers, which seem to have the most dexterity, along with the thumb. Also, it's efficient in that to form many words, you have to switch between one side of the keyboard and the other, which makes for a faster typing rate. My only complaints would be the location of the comma and caps lock keys. I keep on hitting them when I try to make an "m" or period and when I push shift or tab, respectively.

 

[grey matters]

The first typewriter I ever typed on was one of those old typewriters. I can't see why they just don't change to a more practical lay out. Of course I also don't know why the U.S. hasn't converted to the metric system yet. Oh well.

 

[Wisp]

^^ because we're obtuse.

And editor, I love hearing people talk about old tech! Please, go on!

 

[Luzian]

I want a keyboard that groups letters phonetically
it would be nice to have keys in an order like such:

L,R,M,N

T,D - K,G - P,B

F,V - S,Z

Sh,Ch,J

A,E,I,O,U - W,Y

 

[JoeJoe]

Speaking of keyboards, does anyone know why in different languages sometimes utterly unnecessarily letters are swapped? For instance the German keyboard is as follows:
^1234567890ß´
qwertZuiopü+
asdfghjklöä#
<Yxcvbnm,.-
The one thing I'm sure of is, that the Y and Z are swapped, and I think some other characters are also deplaced. From what I've heard the French layout is a lot worse.

 

[Nevermind]

Speaking of keyboards, does anyone know why in different languages sometimes utterly unnecessarily letters are swapped? For instance the German keyboard is as follows:
^1234567890ß´
qwertZuiopü+
asdfghjklöä#
<Yxcvbnm,.-
The one thing I'm sure of is, that the Y and Z are swapped, and I think some other characters are also deplaced. From what I've heard the French layout is a lot worse.

I type on an American keyboard, but set to German layout input.
It took me a few weeks to get used to it.

As far as the letters, the only major difference is the Y/Z switch and the addition of öäü.
The rest is more complicated. Aside from the numbers, commas, and periods, almost all of the non-alphabet keys are switched around.

Then there's the Alt Gr thing that American keyboards lack, at least until recently. I noticed that a brand new laptop had an Alt Gr key, but I believe it's only function was to type the € sign.

Random, and far from complete, list of differences:

German "" replaces American @ as shift+2
German @ is Alt Gr+Q
German * is American }
German ] is Alt Gr+9
German ) is on the 9 [ American ( ]
German ( is on the 8 [ American * ] (this subtle but annoying switch gave me a lot of trouble)
If you press CAPS LOCK on a German keyboard, typing 1 will give you !
-as opposed to American keyboard which still makes you press shift to access ! even if CAPS LOCK is on. (! is above the 1 in both layouts)
In German you can type ´and the e(or any vowel) to get é á í ó ú.
Same with ^ and any vowel to get ê û î ô â, same concept with `then vowel for à è ì ù ò.
However the same cannot be done with umlauts, öäü, which each have their own key. (unlike Icelandic keyboards which have a ¨ key.)

I have no idea as to the reasoning behind the Y/Z switch, but the rest are switched around, I assume, to make room for additional functions without getting chaotic.

German keyboards are very much superior to American. American keyboards are very limited as they have far fewer functions than the German ones. Despite this, German keyboards only have one key more than American keyboards. This key is between left shift and Y (Z on American keyboards) and serves as the < and > key.

This is one major reason why I've switched to German. I love languages, and I like to be able to type them. This is my one criticism against Dvorak, it is as limited in function as American keyboards.

As for French keyboards, THOSE are messed up.

 

[Ogion]

I like german keyboards as well (Well, on the forum and the chat i write only english, of course).
But wait, american keyboards just don't have the extra layer that we have with AltGr?? Woah, didn't know that.
The reason btw why on a German keyboard y and z is switched is because z is more often than the y in German.

Ogion

 

[Nevermind]

I like german keyboards as well (Well, on the forum and the chat i write only english, of course).
But wait, american keyboards just don't have the extra layer that we have with AltGr?? Woah, didn't know that.
The reason btw why on a German keyboard y and z is switched is because z is more often than the y in German.

Ogion

Ahh ok, that makes sense.

And yeah, I have only once seen an American keyboard with an AltGr layer, and that was less than a week ago when my mom bought a new laptop. On all other American keyboards I've used, there's simply right alt and a left alt that do the exact same thing.

The AltGr thing actually took me a while to figure out as I had never heard of it before I switched to German.

I think it'd be a good idea to add an AltGr layer to American keyboards, it could potentially make many more characters available for easy typing. On a typical American keyboard you can't even type the €Euro sign without using codes of some sort.

When I go back to Germany this summer, a real German keyboard or two will be atop my list of things to buy.

 

[Ogion]

Where do you go in Germany?

Ogion

 

[Nevermind]

Where do you go in Germany?

Ogion

Ludwigsburg, just north of Stuttgart.
It's our official sister city, and so I know quite a few people in that area. Also, I love the Swabian accent. I actually like all German accents, but Swabian brings back good memories and a sense of familiarity. (and when I say accent, I mean both when they speak German and when they speak English.)

Where in Germany do you live?

 

[Ogion]

At the moment in Giessen, Hessen. It's about 45minutes with the train north of Frankfurt/Main (I'm coming from Bonn and surroundings though).
Hehe, yes, swabian accent is nice. (I like most of the accents too, but i have some hate-accents....Like saxonian...ewww. And i don't really like Bavarian either).

Ogion

 

[Felan]

I believe the QWERTY layout is from the typewriter age. It prevented the typewriter from getting stuck because of people typing too fast.

That is fascinating, I had long wondered about the layout choice!

 

[Nevermind]

At the moment in Giessen, Hessen. It's about 45minutes with the train north of Frankfurt/Main (I'm coming from Bonn and surroundings though).
Hehe, yes, swabian accent is nice. (I like most of the accents too, but i have some hate-accents....Like saxonian...ewww. And i don't really like Bavarian either).

Ogion

Cool.

When my mother was in the US Air National Guard, she was stationed for two weeks in Frankfurt am Main. She did not get out much though as she hated being in a place where she did not understand anything. In contrast, I love being surrounded by a foreign language. It makes everything seem more unique, new, and interesting to me.

I am not familiar with the Saxonian accent, but I have heard Bavarian before, and I can hardly understand word of it. Though, to be honest, I wouldn't understand any German dialect if it was spoken fast enough. That's the hardest thing for me, understanding the spoken language.

 

[Ogion]

Hehe, yea. There are a number of accents (and just personal pronounciation) that are not very 'clear and clean'. So hard to udnerstand sometimes even for a German. But i guess you have that in most countries.
I have a link here to a short parody in the Lord of the rings in saxonian. It's 3 minutes, but you can hear a bit what saxonian is. If you want to hear more than search in youtube just for "sächsisch"

Ogion

 

[Nevermind]

Hehe, yea. There are a number of accents (and just personal pronounciation) that are not very 'clear and clean'. So hard to udnerstand sometimes even for a German. But i guess you have that in most countries.
I have a link here to a short parody in the Lord of the rings in saxonian. It's 3 minutes, but you can hear a bit what saxonian is. If you want to hear more than search in youtube just for "sächsisch"

Ogion

Thanks.
I wish there was a site or video with audio of all the different accents. Anything language related interests me. I even like to compare different accents within my own language.

And wow, that does sounds rather odd, haha. We are watching Der Herr der Ringen in my German class, but with a more standard accent, so it's much clearer and I can understand more of it.

 

[Sapphire Harp]

wish there was a site or video with audio of all the different accents. Anything language related interests me. I even like to compare different accents within my own language.

Actually, Nevermind... You may be in luck. There is an archive of speech and accent patterns online. It's only english, but they actually have an enormous body of samples. Take a look:

The Speech Accent Archive


​

 

[Nevermind]

Thanks! That's very much the kind of thing I was looking for. Fascinating.

Unfortunately firefox and quicktime seem to hate each other so I have to use internet explorer.. but still it is very interesting.