Judge this please. (smoker vs anti-smoker)

[own8ge]

: = me
Ferox = some random person I virtually know

Am I being Irrational?
(I must say: anything I said below, may not be true. But was intentionally directed towards Ferox and all that is relevant towards that, I objectified myself based on Ferox understanding.)

Spoiler

[16:00] : I will go and smoke now, brb.
[16:01] Fer0x: don't
[16:01] : well, it's not your choice to make XD
[16:01] Fer0x: ok, as you wish
[16:02] : You have to understand, that I do have reasonable reasons for my actions
[16:02] : :P
[16:02] : I don't smoke to be cool or sth.. -.-
[16:02] Fer0x: then why do you smoke? to make you less healthy?
[16:02] Fer0x: oh well
[16:02] Fer0x: then
[16:02] Fer0x: go ahead
[16:03] : That you don't understand something. Doesn't mean that you are right.
[16:04] : Infact, you MUST be wrong, because you can't make an objective judgement if you don't understand
[16:04] : XD
[16:04] Fer0x: really? smoking doesn't make you less healthy?
[16:07] Fer0x: brb in 30 mins
[16:11] : Did i say that? No.
[16:11] : But, I do know all the risks smoking brings, and I still smoke
[16:11] : While, I am, a rational guy
[16:12] : So apparently the pros outweigh the cons in my case
[16:12] : And if you regret to acknowledge that, you are being the irrational guy. Not me, because seemingly I smoke.
[16:13] Fer0x: dude
[16:13] Fer0x: I smoked
[16:13] Fer0x: like 5-10 ciggarettes
[16:13] : yes
[16:13] : I have smoked like a million
[16:13] Fer0x: had no reason to do it
[16:13] Fer0x: so I didn't
[16:13] : Yes YOU had no reason to do it.
[16:13] Fer0x: it didn't attracted me
[16:14] : I started smoking my first cigaret because I had REASON to do it
[16:14] : My case, is different then yours.
[16:14] Fer0x: PLS TELL ME THAT REASON?
[16:14] Fer0x: does it make you feel better?
[16:14] : That reason is infinity
[16:14] Fer0x: pff
[16:15] : The first cigaret I smoked, was because if I didn't my health would be worse because of the suppression society gave me.
[16:15] : Now, I smoke for more reasons
[16:15] Fer0x: you are not strong as a person then
[16:15] : That is an invalid conclusion.
[16:15] Fer0x: pff
[16:16] Fer0x: I'm poor and I think that being poor is the most stressful reason to smoke
[16:16] Fer0x: yet I didn'
[16:16] Fer0x: I could afford myself ciggarettes
[16:16] Fer0x: WHAT DO THE CIGGARETTES GIVE YOU?
[16:16] Fer0x: please
[16:16] : I have reached nirvana and have moments of enlightenment (Just to invalidate your conclusion to say I am a weak person)
[16:16] Fer0x: answer
[16:17] : It's an invalid question you are asking because the answer is infinity. A more proper question would be more directive
[16:18] : I also could not explain that what you can't imagine because you have not sensed it
[16:18] : You don't understand why I smoke, So I can't explain why I smoke.
[16:18] : It's a paradox.
[16:19] : So your question is invalid.
[16:19] Fer0x: whatever
[16:19] Fer0x: you are now acting like an ignorant
[16:19] Fer0x: now youll say no i'm not
[16:19] : No, I give total clarity, you are being ignorant by not acknowledging more then 1 answer to be righteous
[16:20] : You are being ignorant, by not having a refined judgement
[16:21] : you're judgement is not objectively valid (Based on rational conclusions I made in this conversation)
[16:21] : (excuse my english)
[16:22] Fer0x: i asked
[16:22] Fer0x: what do the ciggarettes give you
[16:22] Fer0x: u said infinity
[16:22] Fer0x: that's rational? k
[16:23] : because the question is not rational.... I can't give a rational answer.
[16:23] : I have accurately explained that. But seemingly you can't understand my clarification
[16:25] Fer0x: what do you get
[16:26] Fer0x: by smoking them?
[16:26] Fer0x: it makes you feel better?

edit: Irrelevant ^^

 

[Proletar]

Smoking has always been the time of reflection for me. After a heated argument, I'd go out to have a smoke. And with the calming effect of the nicotine, I could think straight and unbiased.


I don't smoke anymore though.

 

[Etheri]

'Infact, you MUST be wrong, because you can't make an objective judgement if you don't understand'

I believe this statement is false, you can be right, even if your motivations or reasons are wrong.

Also, I think your statement of infinity is wrong too. While you can easily say the pros outweigh the cons, I don't think you can, in any way, claim to have infinite ammount of pros. I also do not understand where this 'infinity' as reason comes from, please explain.

 

[Duxwing]

Not to sound mean, but fer0x cleaned your clock. Perhaps you were using paraconsistent logic (which I have not studied in any great depth as of this post) but the answer to a qualitative question, barring ones that partially regard the quantifiable or endlessness itself, cannot be answered with "infinity," for such an answer implies that you literally have an unending supply of reasons to smoke. Although you could theoretically have an infinite number of reasons given infinite time and resources, in practice, which is more relevant here due to you being a presumably real agent, your finite time and resources confines you to a finite number of reasons to do anything, be it smoke, drink, or eat.

Therefore, fer0x was right to call your response of "infinity" invalid. Moreover, the notion that one cannot explain something to someone who does not understand it, which you invoked, is also invalid, for how else could teaching work? He asked you a simple question, "What do you get from smoking," and you tried to blame your inability to answer his question on him. He deserves an apology if his feelings were hurt, and perhaps you should do some soul-searching regarding why you smoke at all.

-Duxwing

 

[own8ge]

@Duxwing @Etheri

With infinity is meant that I could say literately anything (even con's of smoking or totally out of context statements), and argue it with logic which would make it objectively a true answer to the question.

'Infact, you MUST be wrong, because you can't make an objective judgement if you don't understand'

I believe this statement is false, you can be right, even if your motivations or reasons are wrong.

My objectivity (and so, my close-mindedness) was directed towards fer0x to make a point. -> Yes, you can be right. But you can't argue it to be right.
I.e. you have never tasted coca cola. Then you CAN say coca cola is nasty, but you can't explain that with valid logic. (Yes he tasted cigarettes, but he is a total different person than me and have not tasted it as me. I hope you understand my point although my clarification is nothing near perfect)

@Duxwing
You misinterpret some of my intentions (I do not blame you). I smoke not because of directive reasons. I smoke because I smoke and my judgement doesn't block me from smoking. It is like to argue, why you are attracted to a specific gender. You can only guess why you are attracted to this gender, but the fact is that you do are attracted to this gender. To ask Why do you feel attracted to this gender, is invalid because the person could only guess why he is attracted to this gender and thus it is irrelevant as an explanation why he is attracted to this gender. (Maybe not the best example) But what I'm trying to clarify here Is that why I smoke is not answerable. It's like asking: Why are you gay? (Well, now we know it is because of your DNA, but imagine this question to be asked in the past..)

 

[doncarlzone]

I actually mixed it up and thought you were the anti-smoker to begin with.

I was going to reply that I thought it was ridiculous to start such a discussion with a smoker to begin. I sort of see smoking as the equivalent being very overweight, it is something that you cannot hide whether you want it or not.

We all have things in our lives that we are struggling with, however, usually it is something you can keep to yourself. It is therefore incredibly easy to point fingers at overweight people or smokers while we are not being judged for what we are struggling with ourselves.

I can really relate to both smokers and overweight people in their struggles. It basically comes down to pushing change in your life forward.

To own8ge, I am not saying that you are insecure about your smoking or that it is something you are struggling personally because I don't know you.

 

[Vrecknidj]

1) I have found that being compassionate with others produces better and longer-lasting results than being combative.

2) People suffer stress, it is part of the human condition; it is common for people to respond to stress poorly (addiction is a common response to stress).

3) Almost no one responds well to "You're an illogical idiot," no matter how it's disguised. I refer you back to 1.

 

[Solitaire U.]

Seems like you evaded his questions somewhat...

However, I understand this: "The first cigaret I smoked, was because if I didn't my health would be worse because of the suppression society gave me."

The only problem is that it's something only a fellow smoker could grasp.

Hmmm...now I'm green. It isn't easy being green.

 

[own8ge]

1) I have found that being compassionate with others produces better and longer-lasting results than being combative.

2) People suffer stress, it is part of the human condition; it is common for people to respond to stress poorly (addiction is a common response to stress).

3) Almost no one responds well to "You're an illogical idiot," no matter how it's disguised. I refer you back to 1.

Do you consider me to be suffering from stress and combative? I don't..
Please answer my question though, I'm always open for improvement

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

Why didn't you just go out and have smoke and not engage in a pointless conversation?

 

[own8ge]

Why didn't you just go out and have smoke and not engage in a pointless conversation?

It's never pointless.
I refine my judgement and my Fe has a desire to help others. In many cases, it is to make people understand. (And yes, I'm full of love but have no friends... So I bother random people with it )
It also helps me to deal better in conversations in the future. I'm also naturally always serious (If that's even relevant XD)

 

[Meer]

The tobacco Buddha.

 

[redbaron]

One of the stupidest conversations I've ever read.

INTP's seem to assume their own rationality and intelligence whenever a debate or topic related to logic comes up, and believe they are perfectly able to detect their own bias and only present logical arguments. It would be nice if it were true, but it's not.

This is also wrong:

I.e. you have never tasted coca cola. Then you CAN say coca cola is nasty, but you can't explain that with valid logic.

Logic is not predicated upon personal experience. I don't have to drink coca-cola to know its (lack of) nutritional content, and make an assessment of its (lack of) nutrional value. I could even make a valid logical argument of its taste based on these ingredients, still without ever having tasted it.

I've never seen a black hole but I can still make a valid, logical argument for their existence.

 

[Moocow]

Yeah, your whole stance is basically bunk and you came off as a bit of a pompous cock in the process. I highly advise against citing your alleged spiritual achievements to claim authority.
You didn't even cite any pros. He was asking for even one or two simple benefits of smoking and you brain-farted at him.

[16:11] : But, I do know all the risks smoking brings, and I still smoke
[16:11] : While, I am, a rational guy
[16:12] : So apparently the pros outweigh the cons in my case
[16:12] : And if you regret to acknowledge that, you are being the irrational guy. Not me, because seemingly I smoke.

This doesn't even make sense. The pros outweigh the cons because you are a self-proclaimed rational guy?

[16:19] : No, I give total clarity, you are being ignorant by not acknowledging more then 1 answer to be righteous
[16:20] : You are being ignorant, by not having a refined judgement
[16:21] : you're judgement is not objectively valid (Based on rational conclusions I made in this conversation)
[16:21] : (excuse my english)

You give total clarity? You made as vague of an answer as possible.

 

[own8ge]

@redbaron You take the tasting of cola out of context. I was talking about the taste, and purely the taste. Not its content.

@Moocow

I highly advise against citing your alleged spiritual achievements to claim authority.

I normally wouldn't, but I was trying to lower myself to a more Te standard to make myself clear.

Haha and the clarity part I now read. Epic . I didn't mean it like that though, my fault. (I meant, I'm giving clarity to my furthest practical(time based) ability; I guess I rushed it to much.)

And The pros outweigh the cons because seemingly I choose to smoke and said before that I do it because of reason. -I understand your interpretation though, I suppose... I should pay more attention to the way I'm objectifying myself Point being... I expect people to be dumb, very dumb; Thus I naturally don't pay any attention at all

 

[Moocow]

I expect people to be dumb, very dumb; Thus I naturally don't pay any attention at all

At least you're honest. I think you should stop that though. Something you might have learned from nirvana school is that expectations and prejudices cloud your vision. Also, I'm sure there's something about humility and the nature of knowledge in there...

 

[redbaron]

@redbaron You take the tasting of cola out of context. I was talking about the taste, and purely the taste. Not its content.

And as I already pointed out, you can still make a valid, logical argument about its taste without having personally tasted it.

Logic is not predicated upon personal experience. Period.

You can use personal experience to make logical arguments, but the argument is not automatically logical because you're making it from personal experience. Nor is an argument automatically illogical because it's not made from personal experience.

Fer0x made you look like an intellectual clout with barely any effort. All he did was ask for a single reason as to why you smoke. Fair question if you ask me.

 

[own8ge]

Fer0x made you look like an intellectual clout with barely any effort. All he did was ask for a single reason as to why you smoke. Fair question if you ask me.

The point I was trying to convey is that it is not a fair question. So in your 'expertise' what you are saying is that I dissed myself. -But it was an open discussion, so you can't be dissed. Am I making sense, or are you incapable of understanding this as well?

 

[redbaron]

The point I was trying to convey is that it is not a fair question. So in your 'expertise' what you are saying is that I dissed myself. -But it was an open discussion, so you can't be dissed. Am I making sense, or are you incapable of understanding this as well?

I fail to see how as innocuous a question as, 'for what reason do you smoke?' is unfair. If it makes you uncomfortable or insecure or you feel in some way vindicated by it, then the issue is with you.

He wasn't asking a loaded question like, 'what stupid reason do you have for smoking?' whereby answering with any reason is akin to admitting the reason is stupid. He asked an open ended question, where you were free to give absolutely any reason as to why you smoked.

Instead you gave vague responses and avoided ever answering the question.

 

[Niclmaki]

In my opinion the argument was over when you said "it's not your choice to make." I and anyone else don't have to agree with your reasons. If it was to hurt other people then maybe I'd have an issue.

If you understand your choice and its consequences I have no issue with it. I even extend this to suicide.

 

[own8ge]

I fail to see how as innocuous a question as, 'for what reason do you smoke?' is unfair. If it makes you uncomfortable or insecure or you feel in some way vindicated by it, then the issue is with you.

He wasn't asking a loaded question like, 'what stupid reason do you have for smoking?' whereby answering with any reason is akin to admitting the reason is stupid. He asked an open ended question, where you were free to give absolutely any reason as to why you smoked.

Instead you gave vague responses and avoided ever answering the question.

The question was loaded by the context it was given in.. HOW, can you not see...?

I.e. [16:02] Fer0x: then why do you smoke? to make you less healthy?
[16:02] Fer0x: oh well
[16:02] Fer0x: then
[16:02] Fer0x: go ahead

If you fail to see what cognitive functionality his context is a product off. Then please leave this discusion.

Because if you fail to see that, you can't understand where I based my objectivity on. And if you don't understand that, you will read what I say by the words I have givven which would be retarded to do so.

 

[redbaron]

Considering you said that you had, 'reasonable reasons' for smoking, it would naturally be expected that you would elucidate those reasons. If you're going to say something like that, then try and cut the conversation short and give vague answers to questions, don't be surprised when people start mocking you and not taking you seriously.

If that's your opinion of someone framing a question unfairly, quite frankly I think you're more than a little bit sheltered.

This is an example of your inferior Fe's precious sensibilities being violated (this situation is unfair, I should put this guy in his place and/or prove my own viewpoint) more than it is a rational argument.

 

[own8ge]

Considering you said that you had, 'reasonable reasons' for smoking, it would naturally be expected that you would elucidate those reasons. If you're going to say something like that, then try and cut the conversation short and give vague answers to questions, don't be surprised when people start mocking you and not taking you seriously.

If that's your opinion of someone framing a question unfairly, quite frankly I think you're more than a little bit sheltered.

This is an example of your inferior Fe's precious sensibilities being violated (this situation is unfair, I should put this guy in his place and/or prove my own viewpoint) more than it is a rational argument.

Your viewpoint on the matter seem reasonable and agreeable. But! It does not define it just yet. It's imperfect as I did not consider myself to be framed, I must admit though that the conclusions you have drawn are more than rational. What you are missing out on is your understanding of the 'parties' (Me and Fer0x) and you didn't (seem to) incline that in your 'expertise'. You do have given me information I [would have not/didn't] taken into account in my judgement.

FYI: In the conversation, I did not feel offended in any way nor were any of my principles broken. I did also not consider words that were said to be unfair. I'd add that the intentions I did have included me to exploit the understanding and adaptability capability of Fer0x by making myself hypocritical towards his standard. (If that last sentence does not make sense to you, Ignore its existence )

 

[Proletar]

Spoiler

@own8ge: I saw you wrote on my wall asking me about smoking. I couldn't fit a good answer in 1000 characters, so I'll answer here instead:

First, it's a Saturday night thing when you feel cool like a gangster or a rockstar- just something to kill the boredom, you know? They call it a chippie, a small habit. It feels so good, you start doing it on Tuesdays... then Thursdays... then it's got you. Every wise ass punk on the block says it won't happen to them, but it does.


When I started smoking, I saw myself as a rebel and a risk-taker, having the courage to embrace what others feared - cancer, heart-attacks, the morbid "aging of the skin" and so on. And oh my, that first rush of nicotine that got me high, if only for a second, for the first time of my life. That's why I tried, and that was probably my subconscious association of it during my career in smoking.

I've alternating between different kinds of nicotine over the years. Mainly cigarettes and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snus (Like dip, but without the need to spit and the smell of manure; High society stuff). I had abandoned my reasons to smoke one by one at the time, instead adding reasons not to, like the high price and the impractical need to smoke in itself. The only thing keeping me on was the nicotine, the addiction itself. So one day when I was hung over and felt ill, I didn't happen to smoke for the whole day. And after that, I felt that since I had already cheated the physical addiction, rinsing my body of nicotine without the irritation, I saw no reason to start again, since the first cigarette never taste good anyway.

I don't think that addictions are found in the substance itself, but in how we act toward it - in our behavioural patterns. The nicotine doesn't get you addicted. When you really get addicted is when you feel the need for nicotine, and then grants it to yourself. That relief. So, subsequently, I spared myself of those situations as often as I could. I made sure to smoke, to never be hungry. I had already quit in my mind a long time ago, and then one day I found the right opportunity to do it in practice.

 

[Oedipus]

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/smoking-makes-smokers-more-like-non-smokers-2012112650493

 

[Etheri]

Logic is not predicated upon personal experience. Period.

Redbaron has a point there. (Yet at the same time I could feel anything reality-based is based upon experience? Even when people tell us things, it is only our empathy and ability to imagine what it's like through our own experiences that gives us a point of view (and makes us opinionated)

In my opinion the argument was over when you said "it's not your choice to make." I and anyone else don't have to agree with your reasons. If it was to hurt other people then maybe I'd have an issue.

If you understand your choice and its consequences I have no issue with it. I even extend this to suicide.

I completely agree with you, and am not taking a stance in in favour or against smoking. However, it's easy to claim that smoking does in fact hurt other people. (Everyone around you every time you smoke, for starters...)

 

[Solitaire U.]

However, it's easy to claim that smoking does in fact hurt other people. (Everyone around you every time you smoke, for starters...)

It's easy to claim that driving does in fact hurt other people (Everyone around you every time you drive, for starters...)

 

[Niclmaki]

I don't drive for that reason! (Yeah, I'll go with that for now)

 

[Niclmaki]

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/smoking-makes-smokers-more-like-non-smokers-2012112650493

seems legit