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Is Law Insulting?

Brontosaurie

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yeah i'm in the mood for turning things upside down inside out backwards and going all OooOOOoOooo

hope you are toOoooOO

discuss
 

ProxyAmenRa

Here to bring back the love!
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For a society to function law is necessary. Some people may find it insulting due to some idea that they shouldn't have to conform to social norms.
 

Brontosaurie

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Law, as coercively enforced arbitrary demarcation, is an insult to the dignity and prosperity not only of autonomous individuals but also of the autonomous and fully integrated human community. This must be understood preemptively - that is, before the actualization of autonomy - or structural contingencies shall forever preclude progress.

All is neatly summed up in following formula: fuck the police
 

TimeAsylums

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I wonder what slavery was then...
 

redbaron

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The laws of physics are an insult to my dignity.
 

Kuu

>>Loading
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apples are forbidden from hovering by the laws of physics.

why wouldn't that extend to other objects? unfair.

[bimgx=700]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/15201559/Grab/SS-20130520-205212.png[/bimgx]
 

Seed-Wad

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Law, as coercively enforced arbitrary demarcation, is an insult to the dignity and prosperity not only of autonomous individuals but also of the autonomous and fully integrated human community. This must be understood preemptively - that is, before the actualization of autonomy - or structural contingencies shall forever preclude progress.

All is neatly summed up in following formula: fuck the police

> implying people are not total fucktards
> implying a fully integrated human community is even possible
 

RaBind

sparta? THIS IS MADNESS!!!
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A lot of people need rules to remind them of what to do and what not to do. This reminds me of religion, and how some religious people can actually get away with saying "If I didn't believe in god I wouldn't be a good person", without taking on responsibility for the implications that the line brings (The implications being that they are hollow and without a moral compass had it not been for an external force, which they believe exists and are afraid of).

Just people being lazy I suppose, although in some blurred cases the bar needs to be clearly set. Such as drunk sex. I understand if it's non-consensual, where one individual decided to have sex with another, while they couldn't respond at all. But apparently consensual drunk sex is/could potentially be illegal.
 

Jennywocky

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A lot of people need rules to remind them of what to do and what not to do. This reminds me of religion, and how some religious people can actually get away with saying "If I didn't believe in god I wouldn't be a good person", without taking on responsibility for the implications that the line brings (The implications being that they are hollow and without a moral compass had it not been for an external force, which they believe exists and are afraid of).

That argument always annoyed the crap out of me. I spent so many years in that environment, and it's one of the talking points by them for why "God is necessary" and why it doesn't matter to them how "moral" someone is if they don't happen to accept their particular views about God.

I think it even says more about an individual who follows their own code of ethics not because of outside coercion or conformity but because they are committed to it regardless, by their own choice and will.

But yes, there have to be rules stated clearly, partly as a deterrent and partly to justify punishment when the line is crossed.
 

Brontosaurie

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people are gonna die anyway so what's this big worry of wasting some stupid morons for freedom?
 

Cherry Cola

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People take the law to be a sign of humans being civilized and intelligent etc, it is not! It is the very opposite! Thus in a sense yes, law is insulting. Well.. not to me, or well some laws are. But it damn well should be insulting to the masses! Sadly they don't understand it's implications.
 

Grayman

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People take the law to be a sign of humans being civilized and intelligent etc, it is not! It is the very opposite! Thus in a sense yes, law is insulting. Well.. not to me, or well some laws are. But it damn well should be insulting to the masses! Sadly they don't understand it's implications.

Social wisdom, yes it can be. Individual intelligence, no.
 

gilliatt

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Law, laws must be objective, everyone must know clearly what the law is in advance of action, what is a crime and what isn't, and the penalty if you commit it.
 

ZenRaiden

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There must be a written consesus on what is correct and what is incorrect. You do not whant to have a lawless state and live near a retarded neighbour.
 

BigApplePi

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@Brontosaurie and other law defying citizens.
Law, as coercively enforced arbitrary demarcation, is an insult to the dignity and prosperity not only of autonomous individuals but also of the autonomous and fully integrated human community. This must be understood preemptively - that is, before the actualization of autonomy - or structural contingencies shall forever preclude progress.

All is neatly summed up in following formula: fuck the police
What a shame our dignity has been insulted. Unfortunately it's way too late. The police are there to hold non-believers* in line should they waver. Believers are free to do as they want.

*Clarifying**, believers are those so insulted. Non-believers cow-tow to the law.

**How clear must we*** be?

***"We" means me in this case, but that's a special*** case.

****"Special" doesn't mean special*****.

*****The same word can have more than one****** meaning.

******This is unfortunate as there is no law******* against this.

*******I uttered******** a bad word.

********Are you counting the asterisks?
 
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Laws are only problems when they're self-imposed. :storks:
> implying people are not total fucktards
> implying a fully integrated human community is even possible
We already exist within an integrated community, and always have. 0.o
people are gonna die anyway so what's this big worry of wasting some stupid morons for freedom?
gas-mask-drunk.jpeg

[bimgx=450]http://lostmyway.blog.pl/files/2013/04/keep-calm-and-lets-get-wasted.png[/bimgx]
People take the law to be a sign of humans being civilized and intelligent etc, it is not! It is the very opposite! Thus in a sense yes, law is insulting. Well.. not to me, or well some laws are. But it damn well should be insulting to the masses! Sadly they don't understand it's implications.
Laws enacted by others are as deterministic as those of physics (in that they produce stimuli that you respond to), even if they do prevent you from marrying your cat. :cat:
Law, laws must be objective, everyone must know clearly what the law is in advance of action, what is a crime and what isn't, and the penalty if you commit it.
SacredChao.gif
 

Latte

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Well... if there are no laws, they will be replaced by norms, which is a more fluid, directly culture responsive and decentralized way of communicating to people what the majority finds acceptable or not. And there will also be norms regarding how to handle people who break "important" normative behavior or seem likely to break it.

The end result is something similar but more fluid where situations are handled more on a case by case basis, for better and for worse. There is more human judgement involved.

This reminds a bit about how I would imagine most tribes used to handle the majority of norm deviancy cases, but even further in the direction of case-by-case judgement and the lack of explicit consequences for specific actions.

Anyhow, in regards to whether it is insulting or not, I think Cherry Cola nailed it.
It's most "insulting" to the segment of society whose existence means laws have merit. People who really shouldn't be insulted about it because it's just something that's true about them and how they might behave without laws.
 

BigApplePi

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This reminds a bit about how I would imagine most tribes used to handle the majority of norm deviancy cases, but even further in the direction of case-by-case judgement and the lack of explicit consequences for specific actions.
In a tribe everyone knows one another. The tribe is the very maximum size where this is the case. Perhaps the law was made for strangers.
 

Latte

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In a tribe everyone knows one another. The tribe is the very maximum size where this is the case. Perhaps the law was made for strangers.


The very maximum size where what is the case?

If it's regarding the existence and enforcement of norms, that is not so. Even the most trivial of things that are not put down in law are socially enforced across vast populations. A consequence of the increase in cultural exchange between distant places due to technological advancements in communication/traveling.

In the vacuum left behind from the law and police monopoly on violence, people will organize into modular and overlapping communities out of necessity, and what ways of dealing with what kinds of norm deviancy would be regarded as appropriate by the rest of the community(/ies) will be discernible by individuals, discussed openly on forums, between friends and in community gatherings (offline and online) and change over time.

Transparency in investigation and proof required for asserting whether a particularly serious deviancy has occured will also be things that people will be uncomfortable without, and there will thus be a norm against wanton vigilantism.


In the end, for things to work smoothly, the wisdom and level of aversion to inter-community conflict of the people who are a part of the communities will have to be very high if they aren't going to require any specific laws of the "when someone does Y, we do X" variety.

I will describe a way to circumvent having laws when it comes to filling the role of "judgement".
A way to not compromise the fluidity and pragmatism possible in a non-law system is to have a process they usually use (subject to change or even there being multiple accepted alternative processes) in regards to how to determine if there potentially has occurred a norm deviancy and the process in which one deals with serious cases of norm deviancy, such as for example some form of massive jury where a certain % has to agree on what is a feasible course of action to deal with the situation (taking the role that the law would have in prescribing the solution). With maybe another consensus vote on whether that was a good solution or not from the whole of the community(ies) afterwards.
The specifics are not important for the illustration beyond describing that functions now held by police, lawmakers, courts and the penal system could be filled by a less rigid system. There can be non-rigid systems much different from the one I describe that can be functional.

Or when two communities who do things differently have an inter-community case, they could negotiate a process format. And the communities themselves would have to inside itself have some sort of semi-consensus (if egalitarian) on how to handle the process of negotiating.

The lines are blurry and one could argue the last two paragraphs are essentially laws, but there would not be any enshrined and outside-humans existing "when someone does Y, we do X". The final say on the course of action is still norm/culture & case by case dependent, and specific processes only exist so long as people agree to them existing if there is no monopoly on violence to protect anyone who thinks they have authority from the majority.
 
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