Introverted feeling

[MichiganJFrog]

If my understanding of Fi is correct, those who have it as one of their top four functions can get in touch with their own feelings, and those who don't, can't. Since we don't, does that mean we have no hope of ever achieving emotional maturity? Or can we achieve it with appropriate external help, i.e., reading and talking to Fi-endowed people?

 

[intpz]

That is a very interesting question, I've had an idea to ask something like this.

Although, I would like to hear your definition of "emotional maturity."

 

[snafupants]

The order of cognitive functions dictates preference, and thereby maybe, but not necessarily, some adroitness and familiarity. Introverted feeling simply aligns decisions with personal values, whereas extraverted feeling emphasizes group sentiment, harmony, and so forth. For the record, every bloke has eight functions, four up top and four shadow functions. Normally shadow functions are neglected because it expends an insane amount of energy to tap into undeveloped areas.

 

[MissQuote]

I don't know. According to the test in this thread I have *excellent* use of my Fi, yet I am still typical INTP.

 

[MichiganJFrog]

Introverted feeling simply aligns decisions with personal values

So Fi-deficients have trouble tapping into and acting on their personal values? They're easily led astray? If so, that actually makes sense to me.

Normally shadow functions are neglected because it expends an insane amount of energy to tap into undeveloped areas.

So you should get friendly with someone whose dominant functions are your shadow functions (i.e., an ENTJ)?

 

[snafupants]

I don't know. According to the test in this thread I have *excellent* use of my Fi, yet I am still typical INTP.

That's because you really have eight functions, two to four of which are used relatively efficiently.

 

[MissQuote]

That's because you really have eight functions, two to four of which are used relatively efficiently.

Yeah, according to that test I have excellent use of Ne, Ti and Fi, good use of Ni and limited or no use of the rest.

 

[snafupants]

Yeah, according to that test I have excellent use of Ne, Ti and Fi, good use of Ni and limited or no use of the rest.

Cognitive functions' tests can be useful, but the truest litmus test is real life functioning and internal analysis of motives and so forth. There are five outward strategies for discovering type, and they should all be employed. The five strategies are: cognitive functions' perspective, composite type descriptions, regular four-letter MBTI tests, physiognomy per MBTI, and Jung's original ideas. Another tack might be to match Socionics' types to MBTI types, save the functions, which aren't entirely compatible.

 

[Dapper Dan]

So Fi-deficients have trouble tapping into and acting on their personal values? They're easily led astray? If so, that actually makes sense to me.

I think it's more that it doesn't come naturally, but could conceivably be built up with practice. You're probably correct in the general case, though.

So you should get friendly with someone whose dominant functions are your shadow functions (i.e., an ENTJ)?

It's probably more useful to work on your top four than your bottom four. Heck, the existence of the bottom four isn't even really agreed upon, afaik. The problem with Fi is that it conflicts with Ti. They fill the same role in different ways. Fe, on the other hand, can work alongside your Ti and supplement it.

At least, that's how I understand it.

 

[MichiganJFrog]

The problem with Fi is that it conflicts with Ti. They fill the same role in different ways. Fe, on the other hand, can work alongside your Ti and supplement it.

At least, that's how I understand it.

Hey, that's more than I knew. I'll take it! The thing is, I just started reading this book called Emotional Sobriety, and now I'm thinking, "Well, wait, what the heck's the point?" But I'll keep going with it anyway. I think it's worth looking into, and typology probably isn't the answer to everything, anyway.

 

[Dapper Dan]

Hey, that's more than I knew. I'll take it! The thing is, I just started reading this book called Emotional Sobriety, and now I'm thinking, "Well, wait, what the heck's the point?" But I'll keep going with it anyway. I think it's worth looking into, and typology probably isn't the answer to everything, anyway.

I don't really understand Fi at all, to be honest. But the description of that book got me thinking. I'm wondering if maybe Fi manifests in a more long-term emotional state than Fe does. I know my emotions are certainly very... spontaneous.

 

[skip]

If my understanding of Fi is correct, those who have it as one of their top four functions can get in touch with their own feelings, and those who don't, can't.

How did you come to that conclusion?

 

[MissQuote]

Cognitive functions' tests can be useful, but the truest litmus test is real life functioning and internal analysis of motives and so forth. There are five outward strategies for discovering type, and they should all be employed. The five strategies are: cognitive functions' perspective, composite type descriptions, regular four-letter MBTI tests, physiognomy per MBTI, and Jung's original ideas. Another tack might be to match Socionics' types to MBTI types, save the functions, which aren't entirely compatible.

That sounds like a lot of work. I just got sucked into reading about Questionable Cause Fallacies and a little side tracking about Cargo Cults, but I think I can consider those things a little extracurricular on the same subjects you mentioned, good to have a decent thinking foundation before one delves into the gritty of what they are after.

 

[MichiganJFrog]

I'm wondering if maybe Fi manifests in a more long-term emotional state than Fe does.

That's what I'm thinking...kind of a sleeping giant-type thing.

How did you come to that conclusion?

I dunno, ignorance, probably.

 

[snafupants]

That sounds like a lot of work. I just got sucked into reading about Questionable Cause Fallacies and a little side tracking about Cargo Cults, but I think I can consider those things a little extracurricular on the same subjects you mentioned, good to have a decent thinking foundation before one delves into the gritty of what they are after.

Well, I consider most subjects, which are perhaps a little extracurricular, quite fun. For all of its shortcomings, the MBTI is a serviceable tool for making sense of people.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

I'm wondering if maybe Fi manifests in a more long-term emotional state than Fe does.

I concur.

Long term emotional states governing preferences, attitudes, and attachments. I used to believe that Fi dominants suffered panic attacks due to the anxiety involved in processing the depth of their feeling as it deals with long-term issues in the real world, especially attachments in relationships.

I'm more skeptical now, but I still think they're more susceptible to that kind of anxiety.

Again, considering "long term", that's how the other introvert functions should be looked at.

 

[Kellhus]

I don't know. According to the test in this thread I have *excellent* use of my Fi, yet I am still typical INTP.

A great deal of function pairs can emulate another function. For example, Ni+Se applied to a social issue often lead to the impression of a very driven Fe dom/aux.

But to address the thread topic, I concur with snafupants.

Intraverted Feeling simply has internally sustained identity while extraverted feeling has an identity taken from the processing of one's social environment.

 

[MichiganJFrog]

Intraverted Feeling simply has internally sustained identity

If that's the case, then I need to get me some o' that. All this relying on external sources of validation hasn't panned out at all.

 

[Roni]

If my understanding of Fi is correct, those who have it as one of their top four functions can get in touch with their own feelings, and those who don't, can't. Since we don't, does that mean we have no hope of ever achieving emotional maturity? Or can we achieve it with appropriate external help, i.e., reading and talking to Fi-endowed people?

Only a year or so back I'd have said INTPs can easily get in touch with their Fi.
I thought I had it all figured out myself - not just feeling my feelings but understanding and expressing them; not just my own but other people's too.
Lately, for various reasons, I've had to acknowledge I haven't been developing my F at all. Maybe my Ti fooled me by doing a convincing emotional inventory. I once heard (in a people management course) "feelings are valid data" - maybe my Ti took that a bit too seriously? Maybe I'm too full of shit to respond to this thread.

Then today I came across this: Overview of INTPs’ Functional Stack & Type Development

One of the most commonly overlooked roles of Si is its perception of internal bodily sensations—the body as felt and experienced from within. Perhaps more than any other psychological function, Si provides access to a raw and basic sense of “being” that exists apart from thought or outward stimuli.

Aha! says me - so it's my tertiary function Si that's been feeling my feelings, not my dominant Ti! This means I'm further along in "type development" than I thought.
Maybe there's still hope of emotional maturity after all

 

[Words]

I think the 4 non-intp functions(Fi,Te,Ni,Se) are still accessible but just not "natural."

I think that Fi/Fe is useful to the extent that it let's you understand the chaotic dynamics of values, motivations of people and their subtle changes in mood in relation to their value-related non-verbal expressions.

I think, internally, it is useless. "Emotional maturity" my ass. All you need is a designated goal/value, and everything else is about thinking. I don't care about losing emotions and being non-human and all it's inadequacies.

 

[BigApplePi]

A great deal of function pairs can emulate another function. For example, Ni+Se applied to a social issue often lead to the impression of a very driven Fe dom/aux.

Ya lost me without an example. Would that be an external impression of someone?

 

[BigApplePi]

Introverted feeling (Fi)

Somehow I think this a most fecund thread. It has me thinking all over the place and I can't put what has been said together. The MBTI has its Ti Ne Si Fe for the INTP. So where does Fi go? If I had no Fi, I couldn't savvy this thread:
Name That Emotion. MissQuote has Fi. So what gives?

Perhaps "having" Fi is not the same as bringing it to consciousness as a policy. I can look at my feelings, but I'm not interested in them as goals. They are servants or bosses of my Ti. Fe supports my Ti but Fi is only something that gets in my way or pushes on what I'm concerned (thinking?) about. But I don't know if this idea has merit unless it's generalized by checking out with other temperaments and their "shadow" CF's.

Hey! What about this? A cognitive function must FUNCTION and long enough to hang around consciousness. Can an INTP say they can cogitate Fi but are not interested in its long term function as Michigan & Dapper are speculating?

As an example, I don't mind being aware (Fi) if I'm say envious or loving. But I certainly don't want envy hanging around eating me up nor do I want loving to risk corrupting my objective interests or greater self. But do I really mean that about loving? Well if I love someone or some thing and I reject objectivity about it, that is Fe, not Fi. My Ti says, "keep the love of this externally." It serves a purpose. Keep it down. Don't cogitate about it ... unless it gives me big trouble.

And before I leave this message, let me address the other feeling, envy. I can feel it. That's Fi, is it not? However I not too fond of it. Get rid of it. It's an annoyance and in the way. If I'm not able to think about it (if I'm not its master), it immediately gets pushed into the background. I would never (consciously) go around feeling internally and consciously, "I resent what another person has and must act against them." That would be against my grain. What about admiration though? That's more positive. Would I keep that hanging around? I don't think so. It might be there popping up, but it wouldn't be my policy. If it started to interest me, I would think about it, not indulge in it. That's Ti, not Fi.

This topic is not exhausted ...

 

[MichiganJFrog]

I think some folks are just fine letting their F hang out, be it i or e. In my case, however, it's become pretty clear to me that my Ti has to be in charge. I can develop these functions all I want, but it seems like I have to keep them on a pretty short leash no matter how much I work on them. I'm fairly certain some woman called me a bum today, and it was all I could do to keep from reaching across the table and throttling her. Took some very deep T and conversation with a very wise friend to work that F through.

 

[BigApplePi]

I think some folks are just fine letting their F hang out, be it i or e. In my case, however, it's become pretty clear to me that my Ti has to be in charge. I can develop these functions all I want, but it seems like I have to keep them on a pretty short leash no matter how much I work on them. I'm fairly certain some woman called me a bum today, and it was all I could do to keep from reaching across the table and throttling her. Took some very deep T and conversation with a very wise friend to work that F through.

One could speculate something about you could have triggered her experience with "bums." It could be as innocent as she once knew a bum called, "MichiganJBum." It's all her. I think this is called, "displacement."

Another thing is neither you nor I like to be treated unfairly. It's a matter of how serious are the consequences. My wife called me an unfavorable name the other day. (I won't repeat it.) In return I called her a "name-caller." I think she got it because all was forgotten and it hasn't recurred.

 

[Moocow]

Look at the way you are typing. It is so calm, so collected and well prepared, even as you are talking about choking a woman for insulting you.

Now, you know people who simply can't do that. Their posts convey an anger, appreciation, or drive that they identify with too much to simply state up front. That is often how Fi works. It's the inner sense of place and role in the world that as they see it, can't, and shouldn't be deconstructed. It works with Te to coldly instrumentalize the outside world to meet the demands of the inner drive. When these people are unhappy, they tend to think unproductively, mostly ruminating on how bad something made them feel rather than deconstructing it as we all love to do on this forum. Their rumination is instrumental to external systems rather than their own personal well being, such as the effect of shame.



I believe that it is easier to understand all of these functions when you view individuals as components of a larger machine. The Fi is what keeps the gears turning, while Te is the organization of those gears into something other than useless, spinning wheels.

 

[MichiganJFrog]

One could speculate something about you could have triggered her experience with "bums."

Yes, and she triggered me in turn. No matter how hard I work, there has always been at least one person in my life who has felt it necessary to tell me what a screw-up I am. I guess what I have to realize is that this most likely a universal experience. In any case, we basically ended up treating each other as surrogates, instead of as real people.

If you want to get all functional about it, I guess you could say that that was me using my Si, with a little Fe underneath ("this person reminds me of so-and-so, and I don't like so-and-so"), without the moderating influence of Ti sorting through the information gathered by Ne. Either that or I was just being really thin-skinned and immature.

Look at the way you are typing. It is so calm, so collected and well prepared, even as you are talking about choking a woman for insulting you.

Thanks. This is kind of a new thing for me, reasoning stuff out like this, orally as well as in written form. For most of my life, I used to just get sputtering mad -- wordlessly so, in fact. This time, after the exchange in question, my friend stayed outside with me on my other friend's back deck in the broiling sun to talk things out. You could say he literally talked me down off the ledge.

Despite what seems to be my increasing skill at using rational processes to manage emotional ones, my stomach seems to bear the brunt of the aftereffects of these episodes, so I guess I'm not really managing that well just yet. I'm reading now about how neuropeptides carry chemicals produced by emotions to neuroreceptors throughout the body. In my case, they all seem to go straight to my gut. Gotta work on that.

 

[TheGreenLink]

The idea that Fe users cannot get in touch with their own emotions and can only get in touch with other people's emotions would imply Fe users would only fall in love with people that other people love. It'd imply that they'd ONLY go along with other people's feelings and wouldn't have their own. My understanding of F is that it explains how someone forms values. Fi will form values because of one's internal state, whereas Fe will form values based on one's external state. F, despite being called "feeling", is very similar to T. Ti creates a logical system within oneself, whereas Fi creates an value system within oneself. Fe means that an individual organizes their perception of their environment based on vales, whereas Te means that an individual organizes their perception of their environment based on logic.

 

[MichiganJFrog]

The idea that Fe users cannot get in touch with their own emotions and can only get in touch with other people's emotions would imply Fe users would only fall in love with people that other people love. It'd imply that they'd ONLY go along with other people's feelings and wouldn't have their own.

The first sentence sums up my first intimate relationship, with a young woman I perceived to be the most popular person in our social milieu. In my heart of hearts, I thought she was unbearable; I realized much later that most people actually felt the same way as me. It wasn't that I didn't have Fe or Fi, I just didn't listen to them.

Ti creates a logical system within oneself, whereas Fi creates an value system within oneself.

That would tend to explain why I almost never assert my beliefs, unless someone gets on my last nerve. In fact, I often don't know what my beliefs are until that happens.

 

[snafupants]

Introverted feeling can be an extremely narcissistic function in undeveloped individuals. My mother, an ESFP, in spite of being a generally caring person, can also be a real bugger. She was asked a favor the other day and responded with, why would I want to do that? That's such a wretched, self-absorbed response. An almost inherent feature to a favor is thus: one is placing the other person's needs, at least momentarily, above one's own; the other person is asking for help, and through negotiations, one eventually provides that help. Somehow this didn't translate to my lovely mother on this particular occasion. My father, alternatively, also uses introverted feeling as an INTJ. The man is a saint. There's really nothing he wouldn't sacrifice for his family, and he treats animals more benevolently than anyone I've ever seen. When asked about meaning in life, he basically responds, make a small contribution and remain relatively content. Somehow the cosmic myopia of existence or the foregoing advice never bothers the guy, but his dealings with ontological limitations are pretty faultless.

 

[BigApplePi]

That would tend to explain why I almost never assert my beliefs, unless someone gets on my last nerve. In fact, I often don't know what my beliefs are until that happens.

That could be a good motive for hanging around other people. Bounce one's values off where other people are. Then one discovers by that accident where oneself is at.

 

[MichiganJFrog]

make a small contribution and remain relatively content.

I think that really is what it's all about. Just leave things somewhat better than you found them.

That could be a good motive for hanging around other people. Bounce one's values off where other people are. Then one discovers by that accident where oneself is at.

I am trying to make my values less of a surprise to myself and those around me, to sort of impart them at regular intervals, rather than waiting for a crisis and the inevitable blowup. Put another way, I am trying to avoid having people not know what hit them. In future, I will not even save the drama for my mama. There's just really no point, other than to get attention.