INTP Transgender?

[lookafteryou]

Hello everyone.

I've basically always known I was different, with my whole introverted personality, INTP'ish stuff.
But the past year I found out about transgender people. And after thinking about it a lot, I realized I had a lot of ''transsexual'' feelings myself.
Like I've always thought I was like a guy, or secretly wished I was every day, but I thought that every girl felt like that. (hah)
But as I read more into it, it seems like that's not the case at all.

I'm kinda confuzed, because I don't really wish to change myself in order to fit my brain. But society does make it harder for me to live comfortably, with their view on women and all. And I find it hard doing stuff or going places sometimes because I'm a woman, and I'm scared guys will think stuff about my bodyparts etc, so I try to hide in mens clothing, but my face is still a girl, so it's like I can never escape that part.
And there's nothing about me that is like other women, I can't relate to them at all, so being cast in the same ''category'' as them is kinda bad.
Finding love is hard, because my body basically don't work as a female body. I can't be the girl in any relationship... But I want to date someone more masculine than me.
Or if I watch porn I'm like ''what the fuck is this?!? Do girls really want to be that victimized?" And I can't believe how ''lucky'' guys are, who don't have to be that objectified. It's just awfulness upon awfulness.

My brain function as a males, which looks weird to many I've been told. Most people just think I'm a lesbian, so they never try anything with me. I am both a lesbian and a gay man, because I really like gay men too.

I don't know if it's just my huge INTP personality that makes life difficult, or the fact that I'm kinda stuck in a gender I don't want to be in, so that holds me back from socializing etc. ?
Obviously I wish, and should've been born a guy, but since that's not the case, I wonder what to do. I'm not sure changing it now would make me happy. I tried passing as male, and I was succesful, but it wasn't satisfying either. I wish I just could be content and happy within my ''female'' self, so I don't have to change anything.

Are there any other INTPS out there who are born men/women, but feel like their brain is a different gender?
How do you deal with societies fucked up view on gender?

 

[The Gopher]

Well it's societies view but due to that it's also your view. I may be completely and utterly misguided so take this with a grain of salt but I don't know what it's like to feel male or female. The only thing I can objectively say I know is that I feel human. I don't know what other males or females feel like for all I know I could feel more like a female elephant. Although... I probably don't... Male brains don't function a certain way, well yes I guess statistically speaking they do. Hence the category/society view which is actually fairly normal if you study statistical science I imagine. (I don't)

I mean do you actually want to be physically male? Or is it simply your mind not fitting the category. Group survival instinct is pretty strong that could be toying with it. I mean don't get me wrong if you legitimately do 100% think that you are supposed to be male and not just a human with a female body that doesn't fit in with other humans with female bodies then by all means go ahead!

I mean as far as being objectified and stuff goes yeah that sucks. Happens for both parties to different extents depending on the person and situation. If you don't fit in to categories in general you get this problem as well as if you do. Because if you do you get stereotyped and if you don't you're "weird".

But uhh ignore the not quite drunken rambling basically my point is don't worry about categories or what other people think you should be. Transgender is about who you think you should be not who others think you should be. If you think you should be male then that's cool, be awesome. Personally I think I should be a human who happens to have a male body, is super awesome and doesn't care what others think of him.

 

[Cognisant]

I think in some ways homosexual people do get it easy, not in all ways of course as far as society has progressed there's still plenty of unwarranted hate out there, still in terms of finding a partner I imagine being gay is a bit of an icebreaker and the harder it is to find other gay people your age the better an icebreaker it's going to be. Also gay people can have open relationships a lot more easily, if all your friends are gay men or gay women having a swinger's is lot easier to manage when everyone has what everyone wants.

But I still know what I like and unfortunately I'd make a pretty butch lesbian.

If you can cross-dress and get away with it then hell yeah have your cake and eat it too, I wouldn't recommend going as far as having your gender changed, not if you know you're into guys, finding someone you like that will treat you right is hard enough without expensive surgery and having "The Talk".

To me you just sound like you're single and a little bitter about it, probably the world's biggest club, if you want some advice on getting attention or making guys do what you want I can tell you what would work on me but if you want to go down the straw feminist track one of them should be along shortly

 

[Deleted member 1424]

These thoughts are pretty standard for NT females. So you don't fit into the narrow band of 'normal?' Well congratulations. That simply means you might not be stupid, vapid, or boring.

It's true, being male does seem like it would be massively more convenient biologically and socially, but the naturally longer lifespans that comes with being female is rather nice too. You don't really seem like a true transexual to me. You don't appear to feel like there is something inherently incorrect with your biology. You simply have a large distaste for the societal feminine image that's being forced upon you. So do I. The masculine one is awful too. Unfortunately, that doesn't prevent small minded people from adhering religiously to these images and then attempting to force them on others. Truly, people who judge their own self worth and the worth of others based upon these images deserve nothing, but pity. However selling these images to gullible people is a massively lucrative industry, so there's no escaping it entirely.

There's little else to do, other than seek like-minded people and create your own little spheres free from the brainwashing. I suggest you tune out the noise about what little category you're supposed to be confining yourself. What does it matter if a trait is masculine or feminine; act in a way congruent to your nature. Don't worry about what other people think. It'll make you happier in the long run.

If you're worried that you'll hurt your romantic chances... Well there's a huge demand out there for 'masculine' minded women, believe it or not. Even 'normie' males appreciate it.

And I find it hard doing stuff or going places sometimes because I'm a woman, and I'm scared guys will think stuff about my bodyparts

Why does this bother you? Women in burkas get fantasized over too. If someone finds you sexually attractive that's really their problem, not yours. I guess I don't really understand; is this a religious/purity thing? I mean, people think about sex; it's what they do. If it's in the privacy of their own head, is it any of your business, even if your image is conjured? Is it really worth even thinking about, let alone allowed to bother you? I understand the fear of being judged by appearance, but this doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Trebuchet]

I am an INTP female, and I have never fit the gender stereotypes for women in American society. I concluded the stereotypes were wrong.

From your description, it sounds like you think your gender and your physical body don't quite match, which is a different thing. If that is the case, you may well be transgender.

I have known several trans people, both women and men, some of whom had surgery, some of whom simply lived as the other gender, and some of whom switched depending on the situation. All of them had some difficulties because of it, and all of them found ways to cope.

Trans people can have a hard time of it. There aren't many legal protections in the US for them. My mom was once ordered to fire a woman who worked for her, a professional, friendly, and reliable employee, because she used to be a man. So you should probably do some legal research just to know where you stand on things.

Whether or not you are transgender, I would like you to know that however you are is okay in my book. Many people will agree with me, but I can only definitely speak for myself. If you ever feel like no one accepts you, just remember that isn't true, okay?

As for INTPs in that situation, I think we are probably well-suited to handle it. We often dismiss gender roles anyway. I am hardly unusual in that. For me, some days I feel more masculine, and some days more feminine, but I never actually feel male, or like I should be male. So I don't consider myself trans.

No, women don't really want to be victimized. (BDSM is not victimization.) Porn is a fantasy usually aimed at males. Not always, of course. It certainly isn't to my taste, and it doesn't define reality. Ignore porn.

If you have any taste for SF&F, check out the blogs at tor.com and whatever.scalzi.com. Search for gender, transgender, and diversity at those sites, and you will be rewarded with all kinds of interesting insights from wonderful writers who want less of the gender stereotypes and more exploration of humanity. Many of the nominees for this year's Hugo awards touched on the subject in beautiful ways.

Good luck to you.

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

I'm kinda confuzed, because I don't really wish to change myself in order to fit my brain. But society does make it harder for me to live comfortably, with their view on women and all.

You're mistaken. Society does not care about you. You're not on society's hive mind. Maybe some individuals will judge you, most won't. Most don't care. They have their own lives to worry about. With this knowledge you are free. You can now do what ever you want. Well, as long as you live in a civilized part off the world.

Keep this in mind, when you start to suppose that society should care about you and "accept" you, you're going to piss people off. The reason being is that they don't want to care about you and you supposing that they should. People would be pissed off at me if I start to harass them about accepting me.

And there's nothing about me that is like other women, I can't relate to them at all, so being cast in the same ''category'' as them is kinda bad.

You don't have to relate to people to make friends. As soon as you figure this one out life will be much easier.

Finding love is hard, because my body basically don't work as a female body. I can't be the girl in any relationship... But I want to date someone more masculine than me.

Everyone has their own wants from a partner. I am a tad bit shallow so not only would I like my partner to be nerdy and genuinely curious about the world, the person should not be overweight and/or ugly. Ergo, I have just eliminated a fair number of people with personalities I would like. It is kind of sad...

Or if I watch porn I'm like ''what the fuck is this?!? Do girls really want to be that victimized?" And I can't believe how ''lucky'' guys are, who don't have to be that objectified. It's just awfulness upon awfulness.

If you have a fetish, there will be a porn for you. Ohh, and porn is fake.

Now, with my vast experiences with women, I can tell you with 100% certainty that women objectify men as well. All I have to do is listen to my female friends talk about what men's bodies they like, shapes of penises, who is hot, etc. They go into more detail than what I have ever heard men go into.

My brain function as a males, which looks weird to many I've been told. Most people just think I'm a lesbian, so they never try anything with me. I am both a lesbian and a gay man, because I really like gay men too.

You know, if you like someone, you can make the move. Hell, practice on TheGopher. TheGopher is a very kind and compassionate person. Not very masculine, though. I still give him two thumbs up.

I don't know if it's just my huge INTP personality that makes life difficult, or the fact that I'm kinda stuck in a gender I don't want to be in, so that holds me back from socializing etc. ?

The barrier is not what you perceive yourself to be but you creating artificial restrictions on yourself because you mistakenly think society gives a fuck.

I tripped over in front of a large group of people when an ambulance behind me turn on its siren. Terribly embarrassing until I realized that people were more concerned for my safety and not that I tripped over due to a fright. People, they just don't give a fuck.

Obviously I wish, and should've been born a guy, but since that's not the case, I wonder what to do. I'm not sure changing it now would make me happy. I tried passing as male, and I was succesful, but it wasn't satisfying either. I wish I just could be content and happy within my ''female'' self, so I don't have to change anything.

I wish I was born with a naturally occurring six pack abs. But no, you get what the universe gives you and you deal with it.

Are there any other INTPS out there who are born men/women, but feel like their brain is a different gender?
How do you deal with societies fucked up view on gender?

Probably and I will tell them the same thing as what I have told you. Society does not give a fuck. This is in fact liberating not debilitating. I, like you, can do what ever the hell I want.

Do not suppose that society should give a fuck because that is when people are going to get pissed off at you.

 

[Cherry Cola]

Try operating outside of gender norms as a woman and then see if society cares.

Telling someone potentially transgendered that being born with a gender identity that doesn't match their biological sex is no different than not having every little thing you want is disrespectful Proxy.

And not needing to relate to people.. that's not something you necessarily figure out, that's just not going to cut it for everyone. I don't think you have any grasp at all on the kind of alienation lookafteryou is feeling. I'm sure you've felt a lot of alienation too, and that you've got ways of dealing with it which work you, doesn't mean they'll work for someone different in a different situation.

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

Telling someone potentially transgendered that being born with a gender identity that doesn't match their biological sex is no different than not having every little thing you want is disrespectful Proxy.

One of my gay friends made people ostracize him because he tried to make people care about and acknowledge that fact that he was gay. Truth be told, no one cared that he was gay. That aspect of his being was not what people valued in him. This was in fact a good thing. It meant that people were no discriminating against him. His drive for people to weight heavily that aspect of himself led him to become mentally ill and annoy the shit out of people.

It is precisely this failure to attribute agency to other people is downright disrespectful to those people. Especially the people who are in the inner-circle.

And not needing to relate to people.. that's not something you necessarily figure out, that's just not going to cut it for everyone. I don't think you have any grasp at all on the kind of alienation lookafteryou is feeling. I'm sure you've felt a lot of alienation too, and that you've got ways of dealing with it which work you, doesn't mean they'll work for someone different in a different situation.

What I realized while growing up is that people are people. They're human beings. They have their own wants, desires, dreams, hopes and ambitions. Not taking that into account, not granting the respect of realizing they have their own agency, will always end up resulting in being ostracized. Treat people as they're humans and being a good person yourself is what attracts others to you. Not the happenstance that you're white, black, asian, rich, poor, a dullard, intelligent, LGBT, etc.

I challenge you to be a good person instead of peddling what ever boundaries that a false philosophy compels you to create.

 

[Cherry Cola]

One of my gay friends made people ostracize him because he tried to make people care about and acknowledge that fact that he was gay. Truth be told, no one cared that he was gay. That aspect of his being was not what people valued in him. This was in fact a good thing. It meant that people were no discriminating against him. His drive for people to weight heavily that aspect of himself led him to become mentally ill and annoy the shit out of people.

It is precisely this failure to attribute agency to other people is downright disrespectful to those people. Especially the people who are in the inner-circle.

This is simply not the same thing. This is another scenario altogether.

What I realized while growing up is that people are people. They're human beings. They have their own wants, desires, dreams, hopes and ambitions. Not taking that into account, not granting the respect of realizing they have their own agency, will always end up resulting in being ostracized. Treat people as they're humans and being a good person yourself is what attracts others to you. Not the happenstance that you're white, black, asian, rich, poor, a dullard, intelligent, LGBT, etc.

I challenge you to be a good person instead of peddling what ever boundaries that a false philosophy compels to create.

Really now, you make it sound as if I am not treating other people like human beings because I disagree with your analysis. The fault here lies in the false dichotomy you've presented.

Let's follow your line of reasoning a little further by quoting wikipedia:

In the National Transgender Transgender Discrimination Survey, 44% of respondents reported not getting a job they applied for because of being transgender.[91] 36% of trans women reported losing a job due to discrimination compared to 19% of trans men.[91] 54% of trans women and 50% of trans men report having been harassed in the workplace.[91] Transgender people who have been fired due to bias are more than 34 times likely than members of the general population to attempt suicide.[91]

Wow transsexuals must be really horrible people who don't treat others as if they had emotions of their own! Ah if only the people of Africa could've been a little more decent then perhaps they wouldn't have ended up as shackled slaves. Indeed discrimination is but a phantom of the narcissistic mind!

 

[The Gopher]

You know, if you like someone, you can make the move. Hell, practice on TheGopher. TheGopher is a very kind and compassionate person. Not very masculine, though. I still give him two thumbs up.

... Tell me you don't have a secondary motive here.

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

This is simply not the same thing. This is another scenario altogether.

It is a similar scenario, an issue with gender identity, which exemplifies the point I was making i.e. society does not care but people start caring when individuals try to make their issues everyone's problem. Society's issue with the perpetual victim...

Really now, you make it sound as if I am not treating other people like human beings because I disagree with your analysis. The fault here lies in the false dichotomy you've presented.

You don't. You highlight facets of a person and put it on pedestal. You enable the perpetual victim rather than break down the barriers between people.

Let's follow your line of reasoning a little further by quoting wikipedia:

In the National Transgender Transgender Discrimination Survey, 44% of respondents reported not getting a job they applied for because of being transgender.[91] 36% of trans women reported losing a job due to discrimination compared to 19% of trans men.[91] 54% of trans women and 50% of trans men report having been harassed in the workplace.[91] Transgender people who have been fired due to bias are more than 34 times likely than members of the general population to attempt suicide.[91]

Wow transsexuals must be really horrible people who don't treat others as if they had emotions of their own!

I have no doubt that some transgendered individuals when being harassed the harassers uses that facet against the person. The people doing the harassing are generally those who prey on others with low esteem and low confidence. Harassers identify a person with low self-esteem, find out what the insecurity is and attack the person. Healthy individuals don't harass others.

The harassers, the assholes, are the problem, not the transgendered.

Ah if only the people of Africa could've been a little more decent then perhaps they wouldn't have ended up as shackled slaves.

There you go again. Constructing boundaries. Rather than focus all of the groups that have been enslaved throughout history, you choose a specific group which suits your political agenda.

Guess what? My ancestry were once slaves as well. What does this mean? Absolutely nothing.

Indeed discrimination is but a phantom of the narcissistic mind!

Yes, you are engaging in discrimination. I still challenge you to be a good person and break down these barriers that you construct. Treat people as it they were human.

 

[Cherry Cola]

Proxy: Actually I did not construct any boundaries. You did that by drawing a line separating those suffering genuine discrimination and those suffering perceived discrimination. You confidently put the OP on the perceived side despite not knowing the OPs situation or understanding it to the extent required to justify such a rash dismissal of the entire problem the OP described. If you're perceiving discrimination and still complain about it you're perpetuating victimhood. And you can tell for sure that is the case here how precisely? Well what is certain is that unless you think any and all discrimination is imaginary you've drawn a line somewhere based on some criteria. Criteria which you haven't mentioned at all, so why don't you start making that case?

I mean for crying out loud dude you don't even know where the OP is from and so you do not know the rigidity of the gender roles under which the OP claims to suffer. You don't know if the OP is actually a transsexual either. You give 0 benefit of doubt and instead go on to preach your own philosophy of life.

This lack of perspective shows in this latest post of yours as well. The people who harass others aren't necessarily predators who suffers low self esteem and low confidence, they can just as well be perfectly average people operating under cultural norms which do not promote tolerance. It is obvious you need to almost categorically deny anything that has even the slightest hint of social constructivism because it's incompatible with your worldview. But that's not even necessary here, it's a known fact that when it comes to matters of sex humans tend to sport polarized opinions, being as easily disgusted as they are enticed.

Of course it's much simpler to just explain everything in terms of good and evil. Some people prey on others, they are bad people. Nice people don't do that sort of stuff. Of course anyone who has any experience with matters of transsexualism knows that this is simply not the case. Yet apparently here I am the one who does not think of people as human beings. I think you've got a vendetta against me for expressing socialist views and that thenceforth I was put into one your categories for bad guys. It is a shame because you seem to be quite a sensible person for the most part. Yet here you are calling homosexuality a gender identity issue.

The only reason I cited wikipedia and mentioned slavery was to illustrate that indeed you do draw a line at some point. It felt I had to because you would never admit to it otherwise. Whatever political agenda it had to do with must reside in my subconsciousness because otherwise there is none as far as I'm aware. But I guess this is were you call me a liar as you have before and go on living in your comfortable bubble. Yeah I couldn't just have picked that example because it was the first thing that came to mind could I? Not a person like me who puts certain qualities on a pedestal.

INTJs and projection. I'm not willing to swim upstream in your river of assumptions, hypocrite.

 

[The Gopher]

Slavery? Hold up let me meta this thread before we get off track.

I came in and read the thread and thought "oh this is like many other female INTP's who I have talked to" and so I assumed it was confusion when it came to roles and such. (as INTP's with low Fe can get caught up in fitting in and realizing they don't. (example is Adaire's post although I may or may not have talked to Adaire about this)

So I assumed "that" but left in the "If I am wrong ignore this" statements.

Then after a few posts Proxy comes in and picks up on my and Adaire's assumptions then goes off the rails full blown Fi be yourself screw society mode.

Then the Fe vs Fi fight begins as Cherry comes in and freaks out over all the Fi assuming and assumes (well says potentially) that it's more likely op is transgender. (or that the ramifications of op possibly being transgender and hearing proxies advice would be awful) Now Cherry does give a far more realistic view of how the world will react and it's possibly/probably more relevant to an Fe user.

But anyway I think (although I may be wrong) that arguing with each other is completely off track from what the op wants to know.

But what I think the track is is this.

"Are there any other INTPS out there who are born men/women, but feel like their brain is a different gender?
How do you deal with societies fucked up view on gender?"

The answer to the first is yes. Heaps of INTP's feel like the brain is a different gender particularly females. (I've talked to INFP males who feel the same)

But is that because of the want to conform to a gender role or because you actually are male instead of female. As Trebuchet said you can dismiss it which answers your second question. Don't share societies view on gender dismiss it and then work out if you want to be male.

(Possibly?)

 

[Cherry Cola]

I don't know the OP enough to assume that. But I think it's reasonable to entertain the possibility.

 

[Jennywocky]

Sorry for this tangent:

I have no doubt that some transgendered individuals when being harassed the harassers uses that facet against the person. The people doing the harassing are generally those who prey on others with low esteem and low confidence. Harassers identify a person with low self-esteem, find out what the insecurity is and attack the person. Healthy individuals don't harass others.

The harassers, the assholes, are the problem, not the transgendered.

I'm not even sure what you're discussing at this point. When you've got institutionalized bias in the system, what good is it to say it's not the victims' faults? What good is it simply to label the corporation or government as assholes? This is not just a problem of self-esteem, there is actual bias in the system that is leaving certain groups of people at a disadvantage, so we need to solve the practical problem. Discriminatory laws actually reinforce and foster social prejudice; dismantling such laws and practices allow people to think outside the box.

And interestingly, when you resolve the practical problems, it alleviates some of the stress of being a disadvantaged group because the social stigma is no longer there, hence the person has some room to breathe and explore without worrying where their next meal will come from or whether they will be beaten up on the street just for going to the grocery.

But we're talking about institutionalized stigma. Trangender is not the same as transsexual, but for example when you've got a vocal segment of the population claiming that transsexuals who want to use the gender they identity with should be held under suspicion of being rapists and child molesters (and no, it's not a fringe element -- there's a lot of political battles being fought in various US states right now over this issue), then it's not enough to label those people as assholes; you also have to make sure they do not make oppressive laws or create discriminatory policy.

---------------------

LookAfterYou:

It's a discussion that could become very intricate, but I'll say that what you describe isn't necessarily an uncommon feeling with other INTP women I have talked to -- so I think it's important to recognize (as you have) the cross-talk among being INTP, Western social expectation, and whatever self-identity instincts you might have. INFP males can conform more closely to Western society's feminine ideals; and INTP females can conform more closely to the masculine ideals; this can cause such self-typed people to also sometimes feel confusion over what gender they truly are, whereas I think types that seem to be more within the gender conventions of the culture question themselves less ... and sometimes not at all.

Transgender and transsexuality are not synonymous, transsexuality is a subset of transgenderism. The body dysphoria is a large component of transsexuality -- your body often literally feels wrong, kind of like how you might feel if your brain were mapped to have certain limbs that physically were not there. So that feeling is more intuitively perceptual and viseral, rather than any kind of reasoned comparison of gender benefits and disadvantages.

For yourself, I think it's important to try different things and explore who you are, while avoiding the labels that others would place on you. In the end, what matters is that the way you are living enables you to operate at your maximum efficiency and happiness compared to less helpful and less healthy ways. You want to feel in sync with yourself no matter what gender you are or how closely you align with the cultural norm, and wake each day prepared to embrace the opportunities you are given without feeling incapacitated or so miserable that you can't accomplish anything.

 

[nearfantastica]

I'm an INTP female. Not transsexual, however. Heterosexual. And people have often told me that I don't act particularly feminine. By this they of course mean that I don't conform to society's typical female stereotypes, which isn't all that surprising because, you know, I'm an INTP. They often say things along the lines of: "You're always so expressionless; you don't wear makeup or dress 'girly'; you don't gossip or seem to care what people think about you; you're too easygoing; not emotional enough." Oh, I don't know. I've never been too bothered by it, though. I am who I am. Fortunately that means I don't act like most girls. Falling in line with the majority would be terribly boring.

I suggest you should avoid being bothered by what people think of you, too. Be yourself. You'll never be happy if you try to please others. And this way around, you'll have nothing but people that accept you in your life.

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

Proxy: Actually I did not construct any boundaries.

A part of your identity involves identifying differences based on LGBT, race, creed, ethnicity, etc. and placing them on a pedestal.

You did that by drawing a line separating those suffering genuine discrimination and those suffering perceived discrimination. You confidently put the OP on the perceived side despite not knowing the OPs situation or understanding it to the extent required to justify such a rash dismissal of the entire problem the OP described. If you're perceiving discrimination and still complain about it you're perpetuating victimhood. And you can tell for sure that is the case here how precisely? Well what is certain is that unless you think any and all discrimination is imaginary you've drawn a line somewhere based on some criteria. Criteria which you haven't mentioned at all, so why don't you start making that case?

There are two things which are true:

1) Society does not give a crap about you. People who think society gives a crap are generally narcissists.

2) People get annoyed when a person takes a facet of themself (e.g. LGBT, race, creed, ethnicity, etc.) and shoves it in the face of others looking for a response.

Judging from the OP's post these two truths are worth while to be put in a response for the OP did not say I am being harassed or abused because of my perception of my gender identity. If the OP is being harassed or abused, in civilized countries there are systems and laws in place whereby respite and remedy can be sought.

If the OP is being harassed my advice would be to remove one's self from the situation and seek recourse from the judicial system. That is precisely what I would do. It is what I would suggest you do in such a situation.

I mean for crying out loud dude you don't even know where the OP is from and so you do not know the rigidity of the gender roles under which the OP claims to suffer. You don't know if the OP is actually a transsexual either. You give 0 benefit of doubt and instead go on to preach your own philosophy of life.

If she is from a location which accommodates a barbaric civilization, I would have other suggestions.

This lack of perspective shows in this latest post of yours as well. The people who harass others aren't necessarily predators who suffers low self esteem and low confidence, they can just as well be perfectly average people operating under cultural norms which do not promote tolerance.

Ohh yes, this is possible as I have stated in #2 above. Tolerance means that people don't act on prejudices or bigoted beliefs. It does not entail that persons must be accepted. For the most part, since society does not give a crap, whomever or whatever is tolerated. Tolerance also does not mean that egregious violations of social norms won't lead to ostracisation. If the intolerant appear, one is free to not interact with them. Since we are all adults here, we know this perfectly well.

Now did the OP state that she is specifically being harassed due to her perception of her sexuality? Nope. She did put forward her suppositions about the rest of society which don't really exist in civilised societies. Once again, society does not give a crap about a single individual. A single individual is merely one face in a sea of faces.

It is obvious you need to almost categorically deny anything that has even the slightest hint of social constructivism because it's incompatible with your worldview. But that's not even necessary here, it's a known fact that when it comes to matters of sex humans tend to sport polarized opinions, being as easily disgusted as they are enticed.

No, it is quite obvious that social norms exist because you can identify different systems of beliefs practiced by different groups of people. I don't know about your country but here you are free to do what ever you want. If you don't a like a particular group's set of social norms, you don't have to interact with them. This is legacy of the enlightenment. Barbaric civilisations have not undergone this process.

Of course it's much simpler to just explain everything in terms of good and evil. Some people prey on others, they are bad people. Nice people don't do that sort of stuff. Of course anyone who has any experience with matters of transsexualism knows that this is simply not the case.

No, bigotry based discrimination does exists. We must also mention that individuals also try to make their issues other people's problem. This phenomena does exist and it occurs quite frequently. This is Tumblr's core mission statement.

Yet apparently here I am the one who does not think of people as human beings. I think you've got a vendetta against me for expressing socialist views and that thenceforth I was put into one your categories for bad guys. It is a shame because you seem to be quite a sensible person for the most part. Yet here you are calling homosexuality a gender identity issue.

I don't have a vendetta against you. I do take issue with your belief system which subdivides, categorises and places aspect of being on pedestals; abridging the peace by forcing people to have to acknowledge little Johny's pansexuality - what ever the fuck that is, I don't care. Little Johny is free to practice his pansexuality, I don't need to be involved. That is the beauty of a modern civilised society.

The only reason I cited wikipedia and mentioned slavery was to illustrate that indeed you do draw a line at some point. It felt I had to because you would never admit to it otherwise. Whatever political agenda it had to do with must reside in my subconsciousness because otherwise there is none as far as I'm aware. But I guess this is were you call me a liar as you have before and go on living in your comfortable bubble. Yeah I couldn't just have picked that example because it was the first thing that came to mind could I? Not a person like me who puts certain qualities on a pedestal.

No, I am not going to call you a liar. You seem like a genuinely decent person to me. It is not as you're malfeasant.

 

[redbaron]

Proxy are you even capable of putting yourself in someone else's shoes for even a miniscule time-span?

I don't know about your country but here you are free to do what ever you want.

Yeah, you're free to do whatever you're want in this country...so long as you're prepared to be bashed to death for your sexual orientation.

Yes bashing happens in every country but it's not the point. I wonder what you'd say to the families of the people whose sons/brothers were bashed to death for being gay? Maybe you could try these lines out again:

2) People get annoyed when a person takes a facet of themself (e.g. LGBT, race, creed, ethnicity, etc.) and shoves it in the face of others looking for a response.

If the OP is being harassed my advice would be to remove one's self from the situation and seek recourse from the judicial system. That is precisely what I would do. It is what I would suggest you do in such a situation.

You do realize that depending on where someone lives, they could be harassed daily by multiple people? It's pretty easy to claim something like this when you're not the target of daily harassment.

Like a woman working in a store selling outdoor equipment. A sizable chunk of customers walk into the store and deliberately condescend, don't listen to or talk over her just because she's a woman - because women obviously can't be knowledgeable about camping, hiking or skiing right?

I guess she should seek recourse from the judicial system? She's harassed with that on a day-to-day basis! Only the judiciary system can save her now!!

I do take issue with your belief system which subdivides, categorises and places aspect of being on pedestals; abridging the peace by forcing people to have to acknowledge little Johny's pansexuality.

I'm not going to bother getting into a debate of social structures/ideologies, but is that honestly the way you perceive socialism?

what ever the fuck that is, I don't care. Little Johny is free to practice his pansexuality, I don't need to be involved. That is the beauty of a modern civilised society.

Right. It's nice that you're so accepting - but have you ever stopped to think that maybe there's a lot of other people who aren't? There's people who go out of their way to discriminate against and as above sometimes physically harm people simply on the basis of their sexual orientation.

Tolerance also does not mean that egregious violations of social norms won't lead to ostracisation. If the intolerant appear, one is free to not interact with them. Since we are all adults here, we know this perfectly well.

Ah yes. I suppose people who get bashed should just not interact with their attackers! That'll show them!

Or for a more every day example - women who simply work in roles that aren't traditionally, "girly".

No, bigotry based discrimination does exists. We must also mention that individuals also try to make their issues other people's problem. This phenomena does exist and it occurs quite frequently.

Those "other people" should simply remove themselves from the situation and seek help from the judiciary!!

Actually, what point are you even making here? That bigotry is okay because there's people who annoy others with their issues...so it all evens out in the end?

"Hey that guy got murdered for being gay, but everyone knows gay people are annoying."

 

[Jennywocky]

A part of your identity involves identifying differences based on LGBT, race, creed, ethnicity, etc. and placing them on a pedestal.

There are two things which are true:

1) Society does not give a crap about you. People who think society gives a crap are generally narcissists.

2) People get annoyed when a person takes a facet of themself (e.g. LGBT, race, creed, ethnicity, etc.) and shoves it in the face of others looking for a response.

Judging from the OP's post these two truths are worth while to be put in a response for the OP did not say I am being harassed or abused because of my perception of my gender identity. If the OP is being harassed or abused, in civilized countries there are systems and laws in place whereby respite and remedy can be sought.

If the OP is being harassed my advice would be to remove one's self from the situation and seek recourse from the judicial system. That is precisely what I would do. It is what I would suggest you do in such a situation.

What fantasy world do you actually live in?

Whatever your conception of how things are supposed to work is, this isn't typically how it works when bias has been institutionalized.

My opinion is that people shouldn't give a shit what gender other people's partners happen to be, as long as they are stable and contributing to society, nor should they give a shit what gender someone is or how their persona lines up with the social norm.

However, that has not been the case at least in the United States (which would probably fit under the "civilized country" blanket you threw out). It's telling how much the system has been changing in the last 5-10 years simply because of the turnover in the generations + exposure to people who normally were abused / made into pariahs / treated like second-class citizens socially and legally. People have been pushing for change for literally decades, and it's only within the last decade that any significant progress has been made, mostly because people are starting to realize all the vilification is not true.

No one needs to "rub each other's face in anything," we simply need to start viewing people as people rather than assigning stigma and psychosis. But I don't really get your blind faith in systems that typically propogate this kind of bias, reinforcing the social stigmas (since systems are populated and run by people in society).

 

[Cognisant]

I think Proxy is trying to say people are just people, I'm certain he has nothing against the LGBT community so everybody just chill out, I know he comes off a bit callous but he's an an INTJ that's just what they're like, leave him be.

 

[Jennywocky]

I think Proxy is trying to say people are just people, I'm certain he has nothing against the LGBT community so everybody just chill out, I know he comes off a bit callous but he's an an INTJ that's just what they're like, leave him be.

Stop saying people aren't accountable for their ideas.

My posts have nothing to do with whether or not he personally has a grudge against LGBT people. I have an issue with him assuming that the system functions, which is the same attitude that historically has perpetrated social inequity for many groups. He's not really addressing the problems, he's just saying, "Well, if there's a problem, I'm sure the people in charge will fix it, they're trustworthy."

Appealing to authority when authority is part of the problem is a thoughtless response.

... but... technically, it's all a tangent.
So whatever.

 

[Cognisant]

I live in the same city he does and I can see his views as simply being the backlash to being told what to think, sometimes things like sexual bigotry and racism come full circle, I believe what Procy has been trying to say is that being gay dosen't make someone more or less of a person, they don't need to tell everyone, sure they should have a right to tell people if they want to but there's always going to be some people who will use being gay, or black or whatever as a means to get attention.

For instance last night my mother was telling a story about how she gave some money to an apparently homeless aboriginal person and when they thanked her she stopped them and said "no, thank you" and I'm trying to explain to her that by generalising them like that and putting them upon a pedastal she has actually come full circle back into racism.

The OP didn't sound like a lesbian being harassed for her preferences, it sounded like a frustrated straight girl that thinks she could be a lesbian because she's in denial about the somewhat less dignified truth and then some touchy-feely do gooders have decided to jump on the band wagon, I'm sorry but I think I have to side with Proxy on this one, in terms of intent if not his specific wording.

I'm not as lawful as he is

 

[Cognisant]

Stop saying people aren't accountable for their ideas.

That's not what I'm saying, people are accountable for their ideas.
But I think you lot need to calm down, take a step back and think a bit more rationally.
E.g. You just tried to strawman me there and I doubt it was intentional.

I have an issue with him assuming that the system functions, which is the same attitude that historically has perpetrated social inequity for many groups. He's not really addressing the problems, he's just saying, "Well, if there's a problem, I'm sure the people in charge will fix it, they're trustworthy."

Yeah I can't back him up there.

 

[Jennywocky]

That's not what I'm saying, people are accountable for their ideas.
But I think you lot need to calm down, take a step back and think a bit more rationally.

Why are you assuming that I (in particular) am not calm?

Isn't it possible to write directly and forcefully without being viewed as angry and irrational? You can't see me writing, can you? Did I call you names or say other irrational things?

IOW, you're making assumptions... unless your point was that because I disagree with you, I'm not thinking rationally -- which isn't rational.

E.g. You just tried to strawman me there and I doubt it was intentional.

I didn't try to do anything.

If I'm arguing a point with someone that they've failed to address, and you step in and say, "I'm sure he isn't a bigot, so you need to stop arguing with him," the end result is that he's being permitted to make statements without supporting or fully exploring them, and that you've misinterpreted the basis of my post(s).

 

[Cognisant]

Fine, fine.

"I'm sure he isn't a bigot, so you need to stop arguing with him,"

No I said "leave him be" mainly in response to this satire:

"Hey that guy got murdered for being gay, but everyone knows gay people are annoying."

Which I thought was a bit unfair.

I'm calling for everyone to settle down and if you want to get up in my face about that then alright, I've taken the heat off Proxy and I'm pretty much finished here so you can go ahead and huff & puff yourself blue, won't hurt me any.

 

[Cherry Cola]

I'm calling for everyone to settle down and if you want to get up in my face about that then alright, I've taken the heat off Proxy and I'm pretty much finished here so you can go ahead and huff & puff yourself blue, won't hurt me any.

So because Proxy's your mate you're gonna defend him even though he's acting like a close minded and disrespectful fool? He's been rather clear with his thoughts, it's all there in plain sight.

The way you call it huff and puff... ugh.

 

[Jennywocky]

How do you deal with societies fucked up view on gender?

- I try to have a circle of people who accept me as who I am regardless of my traits or how well I conform. Aside from their openness, they are quite diverse.

- I don't read comments on news articles on online forums; they're a cesspool.

- I don't get in people's faces and/or I try to respect their boundaries IRL, so they have little reason to react poorly to me... I'm "saving capital" in case I need to burn it later. I also try to respect diversity of other things as best as I can and not fight over the small stuff.

- I keep abreast of what's going on politically and legislatively around me, to keep a thumb on the pulsebeat.

- I educate myself through varied reading and use of resources.

- I accept that not everyone will agree, so it's more just about making the sure the playing field is level rather than one side convincing another.

- I ignore shaming techniques as best I can... but that's partly what the "circle of friends" is for.

I'm calling for everyone to settle down and if you want to get up in my face about that then alright, I've taken the heat off Proxy and I'm pretty much finished here so you can go ahead and huff & puff yourself blue, won't hurt me any.

If you want to be the hero, then help me return the discussion to the OP.

 

[redbaron]

Settle down?

 

[The Gopher]

Ahhh I saw this coming from a mile away, Lookafter will never come back now...

So because Proxy's your mate you're gonna defend him even though he's acting like a close minded and disrespectful fool? He's been rather clear with his thoughts, it's all there in plain sight.

*cough* I realize how annoying it is to use friendship as a weapon. I've seen it used against you and Bronti, just because they are friends (including me I guess) does not mean they lose all logical reasoning.

He mentioned the parts he didn't agree with and defending the parts he did and empathized and understood why even without stating agreement or disagreement particular parts. That may well make Cog also a close minded and disrespectful fool in your book but that is up to you to decide.

Why are you assuming that I (in particular) am not calm?

Isn't it possible to write directly and forcefully without being viewed as angry and irrational? You can't see me writing, can you? Did I call you names or say other irrational things?

There are some people who seem to write in a violent manner. You however are not one of them. (at least as far as my subjective interpretation goes)

 

[Cognisant]

 

[Brontosaurie]

y'all missed proxy's point, but he didn't phrase it very succinctly.

basically, to stop discrimination: don't discriminate between discriminations. it's all about power trippin sicko's finding weak spots. don't perpetuate their discourse. all oppression is bad and that's it.

you can't make e.g. gender irrelevant by making it super relevant.

 

[Cherry Cola]

I dont get your phrasing either.

Can't take anything from it that isn't obvious and irrelevant. It's not all about power tripping psychos?

 

[Brontosaurie]

not any more obvious and irrelevant than your approach i reckon.

with the advantage of non-hypocrisy

yes it's power trippin psychos, understood in a structural sense, not single culprit basis.

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

Ok. It is looks as if tempers are getting close to the breaking point in this thread. As much as I would love being a troll in response I think it would be detrimental. I apologize for provoking ire.

Farewell,

Proxy

 

[Cherry Cola]

not any more obvious and irrelevant than your approach i reckon.

with the advantage of non-hypocrisy

yes it's power trippin psychos, understood in a structural sense, not single culprit basis.

Could you make some sense then lol. I seriously dont get it, what is it I'm missing?

 

[lookafteryou]

I think most of it is because I overthink everything. I feel like I have a very fucked up view on stuff, and my brain is really horrible, and I'm extremely fixated on this subject.
There shouldn't be anything wrong with me, because I don't look at myself like I have the wrong body or anything, my body is just a body, I can't feel it, and it's used for walking etc. My breasts aren't huge, and I wear like a sports bra thing to make them look as small as possible, so they aren't distracting to anyone. etc.
It's just society that's really fucking me up, and making me think about this 24/7. (or me I guess, I should choose to ignore everything)

But I am not straight, I identify as pansexual, but I've never been sexually attracted to guys... if I find a guy attractive he's usually gay anyways, because I can't be with a ''standard'' guy, because I feel like I would just be dating myself, and that's not fun.
I really really wish I could be straight, but it's just nothing there.

But I just have to settle down, and be happy being me, whether it's accepting that I like women or whatever (I've had a hard time accepting it, before I went around thinking I had to kill myself if I was lesbian, and I would just suppress out every feeling I had towards them. Now I'm approaching it pretty well, and it's gradually getting better)

and btw: I can't gender bend on the feminine side, because I feel ugly as a ''masculine'' woman. I want to look happy, so when I tried being masculine, it didn't work very well, and I just looked ''angry'' and not very inviting.

So after a lot of experimenting, I want to just look female now. People will like me for my soul anyways (pansexuals)

 

[mindflesh]

I've also thought a lot about my sexuality and sexuality in general, I guess it's normal to feel confused if you second-guess everything.

I guess the trap for an INTP is to obsessively looking for the single label that tells yourself who you are, the comfort of an identity, instead of trudging through the swamps of your own feelings.

I think words like "pansexual" are an anti-definition, like saying "whatever" after a long discussion that has led you nowhere. Because in binary-thinking culture like ours some things may remain unnamed.

 

[Black Rose]

I know it might be unsociable to be a lesbian around certain people but I think its cute and feminine. I am sure you can be yourself around here. btw

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

@lookafteryou

Have you considered going to see a therapist? A therapist can be quite helpful and there is nothing wrong with seeing one.

 

[Cherry Cola]

^ Yeah, if you've been thinking and thinking it can be a good idea to get it all out verbally in order to hopefully see some of those knots untied. Though you did sound quite resolute in your last post.

 

[lookafteryou]

I have one theory as to why I always counsciously wished to be the opposite sex could be from being abandoned by my mother, which made me fear growing up to become like her, so that if i was a guy I could be like my dad instead, who was the perfect dad and raised me.

I spent years of hating my mother (a woman), and my extremely negative emotions towards lesbians as a 10-15-year old when I got these sexual feelings myself towards them.
I basically went around hating every woman (including myself) and thought everyone as ''whores'' if they wore dresses (very healthy view woho!)
Well, glad that's over, and I've accepted my moms ''abandonment'', aswell as myself as any sexuality or whatever.

But yeah, I'm going to see a therapist soon, because I could use the help.

 

[Jennywocky]

I have one theory as to why I always counsciously wished to be the opposite sex could be from being abandoned by my mother, which made me fear growing up to become like her, so that if i was a guy I could be like my dad instead, who was the perfect dad and raised me.

I spent years of hating my mother (a woman), and my extremely negative emotions towards lesbians as a 10-15-year old when I got these sexual feelings myself towards them.
I basically went around hating every woman (including myself) and thought everyone as ''whores'' if they wore dresses (very healthy view woho!)
Well, glad that's over, and I've accepted my moms ''abandonment'', aswell as myself as any sexuality or whatever.

But yeah, I'm going to see a therapist soon, because I could use the help.

Glad you're going to therapy, since you do have a bunch of things in your past (especially the past "mother hate") that can be confusing to work out the significance of in terms of your current feelings. That's what therapy is for, and at worst at least it will provide a sounding board for you so that you can hear your ideas reflected back in their words -- sometimes that helps us get clarity, rather than just continually staying in our own heads.

Making life changes is pretty much just about being honest, getting everything on the table, and not rushing things beyond what you can figure out. Sometimes feelings can be strong or impulsive and driving us into things that are better left taking a more measured approach.

I would also say it's great to read a lot of stories of different types of people that you might identify with. That's never the final basis of a big life decision, but it can help you become aware of what the 'general experience' is for each type of person you're considering the possibility that you identify as. This is a pretty typical experience for gay or trans people, and it can apply to other categories (religious, etc.)

 

[Minuend]

Hmm. I guess there's a lot of things going on here. But if you wanted to hear from some who are similar..

I never felt like a gender. I think it's only the last months I've thought more about feeling like a guy or gal. There are certain moods that I associate with masculine or feminine, but I consider them entirely situational/ brainwashed into me.

For instance, if I wear a dress I "feel feminine", whilst if I am more direct and aggressive I "feel masculine". Which is just weird. Clothes are entirely cultural and many women are aggressive and abusive. So what I'm feeling, I don't think those are related to gender.

When I was a teen I did use to not like being associated with a girl, though. Because their interests are makeup and gossip, apparently. Whilst guys were more practical and rational. I always distanced myself from the female gender. I did grow up with traditional perspectives on genders and in college there were also very separate perspectives. As a result, I actually have a slight bias today. Which is irrational, as the number of intelligent and rational people are very limited among humans in general.

And I still get positive feels when someone tells me they tend to forget I'm a woman...

I do think culture still forces people into boxes. If you are a girl, you should be wearing makeup and read girly magazines. If you are a guy you should not be soft and not show weakness. I do think the access to inernet gives a broader perspective on personalties and hope the future generations will be more open. With all the weird shit you see on the internet, a feminine guy becomes inconsequential, for instance. I did read that the younger generation in Norway drink and smoke less and are more interested in politics than what the previous used to be. There seem to be more awareness in general

(tipsy)

edit: actually, I still hear about women being more gossipy and sly in work places (for instance), so I kinda still dislike being associated with them, though people who see people as male or female tend to be short sighted

 

[nexion]

For a couple of years I have been exploring the subject of gender identity as it relates both culturally and personally. I haven't gotten very far into the territory of the former, but I have basically determined that I have lived the vast majority of my life not at all thinking anything about different genders and my perceived or actual relations to either / any. In that regard, I really have no expectations or specific opinions about my own self-identity concerning gender or society's perception of myself in that matter.

I (mostly) agree with Proxy concerning the need of society to be blind to any distinction, to "see people as people", in order for that society to evolve in its own meta-framework, but perhaps that is merely some type of projection on my part, since those are really my views toward the whole thing anyway. With that said, I do realize the bias inherent in many individuals, and even in certain cultures / societies, towards individuals who share traits with them, and discrimination and prejudice towards individuals who do not. I feel that there is a complex intertwining between the psychological and sociological aspects of this subject.

Even still, I also agree with Proxy's assertion that people who would otherwise not care at all are incited into certain reactions when an individual is projecting some otherwise unimportant aspect of his being onto them. I am not, however, inclined to believe that this is the case in 100% of discrimination cases, as that would just be absurd.

I find it somewhat sad that people should have a need to so desperately cling to their own self-identity, but at the same time I kind of understand it from their point of view. Really, though, it's a universe of grays, and I (mostly) don't really care either way if someone is deviant from the societal norms or is firmly planted within them (though I am more likely to like individuals from the former set more). One group does this, the other thinks that, soon both groups become both demonizers and victims of themselves and the others. It's all balance and counterbalance, and they all eat each other into void.

 

[crippli]

Puberty change people. One grows up. Letting oneself be herded. So the herd is determined by the philosophy of the Shepard.

When one split the group after a set of criteria that may not be overly relevant for the function of the group. Then there is no way around that one will get a percentage wrong.

Here is a propaganda video. But the premise is sound.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjJQBjWYDTs

So when the group and the shepard have got things wrong. What does one do?

 

[kris]

I'm going to break this up a bit into smaller posts.

When it comes to gender identity, there isn't currently any clean, unified answer on what drives it. The feeling of being male and the feeling of being female likely stems from neurological, psychological, and sociological factors combined.

For every factor which is typically considered male or female -- gender norms --, there seem to be exceptions. It could range from being a bit of a tomboy to not feeling any connection to gender to feeling the need to undergo sexual reassignment surgery. For some people these experiences are not necessarily significant. They will go on with their lives perhaps giving it deeper thought, but may not ever be motivated to do anything about it. For some the experience may be very significant, and they may have a very clear sense of their identity or even what they want to do about it (if anything). For others, it may feel like they are a broken up jigsaw puzzle, and they are trying to fit the pieces back together.

The problem with the latter group is as we try to reassemble the puzzle, we're not entirely certain what the final picture is supposed to look like. Admittedly, I think it would be nice if some person passing by would look over my shoulder and say, "The picture's supposed to look like this." Then they would kindly help me fit some of the pieces in place. In any other facet of my life, I hate being defined, and prefer fluidity, but this represents the sole exception. The ambiguity is difficult here.

The problem is, identity is very personal, and while an outsider can help you work through your perspective, no one can assemble the puzzle but you. There are, however, many different terms for gender non-conforming individuals. Quite possibly no term will fit perfectly, but these are jumping off points for the types of feelings people experience regarding their gender identity (accompanied by very rough definitions).

• cisgender - a person who feels their gender at birth works for them
• transgender - a person who feels their birth gender and neurological/ psychological gender identity do not match
• agender - a person who feels no sense of binary gender identity
• bigender - a person who feels a strong sense of both male and female gender identity
• pangender - a person who feels restricted by identifying within the constraints of binary gender
• gender non-conforming/ gender variant - more of an umbrella term for people who do not fit within gender norms
• genderqueer - another umbrella term, but in my experience it's usually used by people who embrace their difference (queerness so to speak) with some degree of openness
• two-spirited - also an umbrella term used by some aboriginal North Americans. I included it because it sounds poetic.

There are more terms, some of which may seem redundant and some of which are light-hearted or satyrical, but as I said: identity is personal.

 

[kris]

Transitioning gender/ sexual reassignment:

These days, there are many amazing treatments to help conform a person’s gender appearance to their gender identity when the two don’t align. For female to male, there is hormone therapy, mastectomy if necessary, phalloplasty, and other operations.

Not every person undergoes all treatments. Some transgender men may undergo hormone therapy or breast reduction, but not do phalloplasty. It may be due to cost, but that may also just be how they see themselves and their bodies. Penile construction is an amazing procedure with pretty remarkable results, but it’s a very involved procedure, and doctors cannot perfectly recreate what is a pretty specialized human organ. I don’t know what the current cost is, but probably in the neighbourhood of $20,000 or more. Some places cover it through health insurance, while others do not. Where I live, British Columbia, it is covered through public health insurance, but there are still some expenses which you have to take care of yourself.

The process is long and can be difficult. I’ve had the opportunity to talk with a few ftm people throughout transition, and even in a liberal city, it has its trying moments. Women transitioning to men can be quite handsome. In the cases I know of, these men were not distinguishable from cis men when you met them on the street. Even so, during transition, simple things can be difficult. This requires a bit of a tangent:

I am thirty-years-old, so the society I grew up in still predominately treated transgender people as freaks. At the very least, it seemed everyone reserved the right to reject a transgender person not based on their actions or their character, but just based on visible difference. Even today, trans people face much higher rates of violence, discrimination (including from doctors, employers, legislators, police, and educators) and abuse than almost any other group in many (most?) parts of the world. On top of this, transgender identities are very uncommon, so there aren’t large groups of people with similar experiences to draw on for support. The parents of a transgender person almost certainly aren’t trans themselves, and many will fear even their family will not understand or will reject them.

If you live feeling isolated and questioning your identity, you can become very sensitive to transphobia in the world. It’s a defence mechanism, I suppose — spot threats and avoid them. In some ways it thickens the skin and in others it makes it think and sensitive.

So take those considerations and imagine a very simple scenario. You’re invited to a friend’s birthday party and they decide on a whim to go to a trampoline park, then go out for dinner and drinks. You’re transitioning gender and identify as male, but you still bind your chest and haven’t undergone phalloplasty. Which change room do you use? Even in more common scenarios like visiting a movie theatre or being at work, which washroom do you use? It’s a very simple, every-day action, but it can touch on a lot of exposed nerves. You know in either change room you may encounter some asshole who feels entirely entitled to harass you for something which does not affect them, which can branch off into all sorts of negative ways. You’re probably just going to get uncomfortable looks at the worst (or maybe nothing), but worse things do happen. Complaints get filed. Managers get involved. Police even get called. All you wanted to do was have a fun day and feel normal, and it can (and at times does) take a turn for the worse where way too much negative attention is focused on you.

I’’m not trying to say that’s the norm or make it out like it’s hell on earth. I am just saying that transitioning can help ease gender dysphoria and normalize existence, but it cannot eliminate social or psychological issues at their root. During transition — which can take a year or two for female to male, I believe — some things may feel harder. Most transgender people seem to report that life after transition is better or at least the same. For some it’s a mix of better or worse. Some report it’s worse. As someone going through the process of considering it myself, the one thing I feel I must be most careful about is losing perspective on what gender reassignment can and cannot do. It cannot fix all my problems, but it can give me a tool to feel more comfortable in my identity.

 

[kris]

Are there any other INTPS out there who are born men/women, but feel like their brain is a different gender?

Yes. I was born male. It's not a horrifying experience, because, had I been born a girl I likely would have been part tomboy, but where my gender is concerned, I feel as if I've been on a very long flight and I'm now trapped in an endless layover at an airport. I won't die living in the airport, but it's not a comfortable existence, and I very much would like to go home now.

If the question was asked by a magical genie, "Do you want to switch genders?" the answer would be 'yes' without thought. Real life has no genies. SRS has a lot of tradeoffs.

How do you deal with societies fucked up view on gender?

Sometimes I get frustrated and take it almost personally. Normally I can keep it in rational perspective. The days I am down on humanity are the easiest. Humans have fucked up views on so many issues it's impossible to keep track of them all. This is just one more issue. On the days I feel positive about humanity, it's harder to bear. I just feel like people should be able to do better, and it's a downer to realize we probably can't. Even if things get better for gender issues (and they are getting better), are we just going to be equally stupid about some new issue?

I confide in those who have earned my confidence. With most issues I face in life, I internalize them heavily, and analyse them to death on my own terms. I'm a pretty level person who isn't deeply troubled by much of anything. This is an exception. Talking with people connects the issue to something external. It forces me to really consider the idea of doing something about it instead of toying about endlessly with abstract considerations. In some cases the act of explaining to someone else helps me organize my thoughts. In some cases their responses ignite new thoughts and perspectives.

I live in a liberal community. I know that's not an option for everyone, but if it is, take it. Don't live in a place where people think your dignity is subject to their acceptance or approval. I don't need anyone to like how I live or agree with it, but it's my life to live as a see fit, and demand no less than the dignity afforded to any other person. If my actions cause disgrace, fine, but gender identity? No, that's bullshit...

... although I accept every person on the planet puts up with at least a little bullshit. Pick your battles, just like anyone else. The point is not to be aggro to everyone all the time -- the point is just if I'm not willing to assert myself ever, why should it come as a surprise if some people try to walk all over me?

I read. I read up on my legal rights. I read other people's stories and experiences. I read up on my options. I read up on relevant science articles when they cross my path.

I keep in mind most people where I live have no issue with genderqueer identities. They either embrace that it's part of humanity, or they don't care.

I also keep in mind that there are some bigots out there, and they can cause considerable harm. While many cool people will support non-conforming gender identities and contribute positively, those people mostly can't help you when a couple of cowards want to attack you in an alley or even on the street. It's not a super common scenario and not every transgender person will face that crap, but violence and other milder forms of abuse do still happen, and it's naïve to be entirely unaware and unbraced for it. Really, everyone should have some awareness about the possibility of abuse, but if I do transition gender, it will just require more awareness.

I live my life. The world's not perfect. I'm not perfect. All told, I was dealt a worse hand in life than some, but a better hand than many others. I do what I can to make things better. I gripe a little about the things I can't fix (you need to vent a little every now and then), but then I get my shit together and say 'fuck it'. Gender dysphoria is a big thing in life when you're facing it, but it's not everything.

 

[kris]

As a side note on therapy, if possible, look for someone who specifically deals with gender identity issues. There are LGBT or trans specific groups in many areas who can probably offer suggestions or recommendations to people who are gender non-conforming, questioning, or even just feeling a bit lost or confused.

 

[Ixoziel]

I don't really think that being male or female dictates how you should feel or behave, so I don't really understand transgenders. I've never understood people that say "act like a man" or "behave like a lady". There are differences between the genders, sure, but not like society makes them out to be.