INTP Transgender?

[crippli]

I don't really think that being male or female dictates how you should feel or behave, so I don't really understand transgenders. I've never understood people that say "act like a man" or "behave like a lady". There are differences between the genders, sure, but not like society makes them out to be.

People are control freaks. A person in a military uniform is expected to behave a certain way. A person in police uniform is expected to behave a certain way. A person in a short skirt is expected to behave a certain way, a long skirt a different way. A suit yet a different way. A non costume again a different way. A soft voice, a harsh voice. Soft skin, hard skin. Penis, vagina. Bad smell, good smell. It's all "intended" to function this or that way. But that may all be quite wrong....

Yes, society makes differences way beyond genetic makeup. And people will react to those difference. As in turn will define ones outcome. A lot of people will be defined fully outside of their control or preference. The good news is that you do got the power to redefine "reality", to a larger or lesser degree. There may be little today that will restrict you to adapt any of the above roles. At least in the more scientific societies. That is where "Trans...whatever" comes into play. Just like the transmission on a car. Makes the engine a whole lot more useful.

Transgenders have been part of human societies as long as there exist records. That indicates to me, that human societies can not exist without transgenders. At least not in the way that we are used to. Transgenders can not exist without non transgenders. There can be no man without a woman. Etc. Unless one have a developed fantasy. Like does, or does not aliens exist? So all the above stuff can be bypassed, but then there will be a risk of hospitalization at the ward, with a schizophrenic diagnose, or similar. And then as a wicked boomerang most certainly subjected to the reality one initially discarded as faulty.

 

[Reluctantly]

People are control freaks. A person in a military uniform is expected to behave a certain way. A person in police uniform is expected to behave a certain way. A person in a short skirt is expected to behave a certain way, a long skirt a different way. A suit yet a different way. A non costume again a different way. A soft voice, a harsh voice. Soft skin, hard skin. Penis, vagina. Bad smell, good smell. It's all "intended" to function this or that way. But that may all be quite wrong....

^ Yes. Men are expected to be men; women are expected to be women. So they each amplify those expectations in a social setting.; they play roles related to what they are. The problem becomes when you have to play roles that aren't related to what you are. Because then you still can't be yourself through the roles you play, like everyone else can or does.

 

[Ixoziel]

You can be yourself, though. If you're around people that don't respect you for who you are, stop being around them. I've never acted like a stereotypical male, although I do have some features that are common among men, such as competitiveness.

If you're around people that expect you to act like who you're not, you don't need to change. They need to accept YOU. Challenge their beliefs if they present them to you. If they refuse to get over their traditions, that's on them, not on you.

Your personality has very little to do with what sex organ you have. I'm a guy that has migraines, for example, which is very rare among men. Just because you're abnormal doesn't mean there's something WRONG with you.

 

[redbaron]

You can be yourself, though. If you're around people that don't respect you for who you are, stop being around them.

Not necessarily as easy as that.

Just because you're abnormal doesn't mean there's something WRONG with you.

Fairly sure everyone here already understands this, as evidenced by the entirety of the thread. The point of the thread is more to do with the fact that other people don't have this attitude, and in the world of adults the solution is not always, "stop being around them".

What if it's your own children, parents or spouse? Not so easily solved by avoiding or challenging them if that's the case.

 

[Ixoziel]

Not necessarily as easy as that.



Fairly sure everyone here already understands this, as evidenced by the entirety of the thread. The point of the thread is more to do with the fact that other people don't have this attitude, and in the world of adults the solution is not always, "stop being around them".

What if it's your own children, parents or spouse? Not so easily solved by avoiding or challenging them if that's the case.

I'm not really sure what you're suggesting for someone who doesn't really fit into gender roles, then. Should they allow the abuse? Should they have life altering surgery to change their gender? Is that going to allow them to fit in with the people that were abusing them in the past? Those are your only real options, if you don't want to ignore or avoid them.

And what does being an adult have to do with the control you can exercise over your own life? Turning 18 doesn't magically prevent you from controlling the company that you keep. Being an adult actually GIVES you the option of leaving your parents, it doesn't take that option away.

 

[redbaron]

Attitudes towards gender roles differ hugely from person to person. It's not always as blatant as outright abuse that can easily be stood up to and fought against. Dependent on where you live it can be futile to even try. Doing so could even incite violence.

Exclusionary behaviour and favouritism can be just as or more damaging than literal abuse. The subversive nature of such behaviours can often permeate entire workforces or cultures. Dependent on where you live, your financial situation and your level of education - jobs can be pretty hard to get. Leaving a discriminatory situation could have you end up living in the gutter with no money.

It's easy to say, "just avoid them" and assuming the ideal situation it's good advice. In reality, most situations aren't that ideal or convenient though.

And what does being an adult have to do with the control you can exercise over your own life? Turning 18 doesn't magically prevent you from controlling the company that you keep.

When I say adulthood I don't really consider it solely predicated upon age. There's various things that one doesn't learn about simply by turning 18.

Being an adult actually GIVES you the option of leaving your parents, it doesn't take that option away.

Not really the point.

You can leave physically, that's obvious. The issues with abusive/subversive parents run deeper than physical presence though. Simply increasing your physical distance from them doesn't magically solve the fact that they're unaccepting of you as a human being. Dependent on prior relationship, this could be no big deal at all - or it could be completely soul-crushing and cause a slew of mental health problems.

Maybe you should actually talk to a few transgender people who've had to deal with antagonistic family and peers. Or people who have/do live in areas where irregular gender-identity can result in you getting bashed/murdered.

It's easy to say "challenge people" when you're not the one being held at knife-point for being a faggot.

~

In summary yes. Avoid people who are antagonistic and challenge people who are abusive towards you. Owing to situational factors though, it's not always this simple.

 

[Ixoziel]

Attitudes towards gender roles differ hugely from person to person. It's not always as blatant as outright abuse that can easily be stood up to and fought against. Dependent on where you live it can be futile to even try. Doing so could even incite violence.

Exclusionary behaviour and favouritism can be just as or more damaging than literal abuse. The subversive nature of such behaviours can often permeate entire workforces or cultures. Dependent on where you live, your financial situation and your level of education - jobs can be pretty hard to get. Leaving a discriminatory situation could have you end up living in the gutter with no money.

It's easy to say, "just avoid them" and assuming the ideal situation it's good advice. In reality, most situations aren't that ideal or convenient though.



When I say adulthood I don't really consider it solely predicated upon age. There's various things that one doesn't learn about simply by turning 18.



Not really the point.

You can leave physically, that's obvious. The issues with abusive/subversive parents run deeper than physical presence though. Simply increasing your physical distance from them doesn't magically solve the fact that they're unaccepting of you as a human being. Dependent on prior relationship, this could be no big deal at all - or it could be completely soul-crushing and cause a slew of mental health problems.

Maybe you should actually talk to a few transgender people who've had to deal with antagonistic family and peers. Or people who have/do live in areas where irregular gender-identity can result in you getting bashed/murdered.

It's easy to say "challenge people" when you're not the one being held at knife-point for being a faggot.

~

In summary yes. Avoid people who are antagonistic and challenge people who are abusive towards you. Owing to situational factors though, it's not always this simple.

Believe me, I know all about antagonistic family and peers. It's not just toward people that don't fit in with their gender. My mother was incredibly religious, and would often get drunk and rage at me for not believing in god. Hearing your mother tell you you're worthless and going to hell when you're 13 years old isn't the best thing in the world. I also know quite a bit about mental health problems, as I've had depression and severe anxiety on and off since high school (I was pretty much a social pariah).

I live in Georgia, and there's quite a bit of discrimination here. There's discrimination against intelligent women, there's discrimination against nerds, there's discrimination against gays, and there's a ton of discrimination against atheists. Many companies will flat out tell you they're a christian company, and expect you to be one.

I have no doubt that some portion of gays have been threatened or beaten, possibly by people they loved. The same thing has happened to Jews, African-Americans, Japanese-Americans, and white people. Regardless, accepting a victim mentality isn't going to help anyone. You have to help yourself. Leaving your parents now and suffering the fallout is a lot better than dealing with their emotional abuse for years to come. You will get over it. It might take a year, it might take five years, but is continuing to deal with their abuse really healthy?

 

[Jennywocky]

I feel like people are discussing this at cross-purposes.

Some are talking about it from a social level and how to impact change on that level.
Others are discussing it from the personal survival level.

Both are important.

 

[kris]

Believe me, I know all about antagonistic family and peers. It's not just toward people that don't fit in with their gender. My mother was incredibly religious, and would often get drunk and rage at me for not believing in god. Hearing your mother tell you you're worthless and going to hell when you're 13 years old isn't the best thing in the world. I also know quite a bit about mental health problems, as I've had depression and severe anxiety on and off since high school (I was pretty much a social pariah).

It's not about comparing suffering. Many different groups are statistically more exposed to suffering and abuse. Not all members of those groups do suffer because of it. Some members of perceivedly advantaged groups do suffer horribly. No one is saying that only transgender people suffer, but there are some aspects of the transgender experience which are unique. Not inherently better or worse or more special and more important, but unique.

Right now we're talking about one group specifically because one person asked for help sorting through some concerns of theirs. If you would like to talk about anything you've gone through in other facets of your life, I would be happy to listen, but this specific thread isn't about that.

Redbaron can certainly correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the point was to suggest you've never suffered or had your own family/ peer/ life issues, but rather to say if you haven't experienced being transgendered, don't jump into the thread with half-baked ideas thinking your experiences are transferrable. At least talk to some transgendered people or do some research first. I could be wrong -- even amongst transgender people not everyone sees eye to eye on everything, but it really doesn't sound like you have.

Regardless, accepting a victim mentality isn't going to help anyone. You have to help yourself.

Was anyone saying transgender people have to accept a victim mentality? My impression was that issues were being explained to you because your position was found to be inadequate, not because genderqueer people need to roll over and die.

 

[Cherry Cola]

Believe me, I know all about antagonistic family and peers. It's not just toward people that don't fit in with their gender. My mother was incredibly religious, and would often get drunk and rage at me for not believing in god. Hearing your mother tell you you're worthless and going to hell when you're 13 years old isn't the best thing in the world. I also know quite a bit about mental health problems, as I've had depression and severe anxiety on and off since high school (I was pretty much a social pariah).

I live in Georgia, and there's quite a bit of discrimination here. There's discrimination against intelligent women, there's discrimination against nerds, there's discrimination against gays, and there's a ton of discrimination against atheists. Many companies will flat out tell you they're a christian company, and expect you to be one.

I have no doubt that some portion of gays have been threatened or beaten, possibly by people they loved. The same thing has happened to Jews, African-Americans, Japanese-Americans, and white people. Regardless, accepting a victim mentality isn't going to help anyone. You have to help yourself. Leaving your parents now and suffering the fallout is a lot better than dealing with their emotional abuse for years to come. You will get over it. It might take a year, it might take five years, but is continuing to deal with their abuse really healthy?

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "accepting a victim mentality"? What is a victim mentality? How is Redbaron saying people should accept it? What about being discriminated against and in such a way being a victim makes is it that is bad, why can't you be a victim and get on with your life at the same time?

Also you having suffered doesn't make you an authority on all kinds of suffering. What you're doing is saying I know what it feels like to have ones leg cut off because I've been shot with a gun.

 

[ruorotten]

Nihilism

 

[Grayman]

I personally don't fit any role on either side. I don't see transgender or gender roles as a healthy thought process or view. To me gender is simply a definition of what sex organ you have. Beyond that gender confusion shouldn't exist because social expectations on gender roles like they are should not exist.

 

[Architect]

To me gender is simply a definition of what sex organ you have. Beyond that gender confusion shouldn't exist because social expectations on gender roles like they are should not exist.

Interesting perspective, but 99% of humanity would disagree with that. Your gender is probably the most important aspect of you. What's the first thing people ask about a baby? It's sex. Our gender is programmed into us via biochemistry, and unsurprisingly society has evolved around that and so there's programming there too. And for good reasons. Start a family and discover the benefits of having a provider/protector and a caregiver.

An interesting book to read on this topic is "Left Hand of Darkness" which is a shortish science fiction book by Ursula Le Guin. It's a study on gender.

 

[Grayman]

Interesting perspective, but 99% of humanity would disagree with that. Your gender is probably the most important aspect of you. What's the first thing people ask about a baby? It's sex. Our gender is programmed into us via biochemistry, and unsurprisingly society has evolved around that and so there's programming there too. And for good reasons. Start a family and discover the benefits of having a provider/protector and a caregiver.

An interesting book to read on this topic is "Left Hand of Darkness" which is a shortish science fiction book by Ursula Le Guin. It's a study on gender.

I have put in effort into remove societies coding to put in a system with less dissonance.

Two providers/ caregivers are better than one of each because you can learn a wider array of ways to do things and youndont have a mostly absent father who is always working. A family that can survive of the fathers income alone is becoming a rarity.

 

[Yellow]

What's the first thing people ask about a baby? It's sex.

I think this is the biggest factor in the struggles of transgendered, transsexual, and sexually ambiguous people.

The very first category we put people in is their gender/sex. Everything else follows depending on our own personal filters. So when a person's gender is either unclear or you find you've put them in the wrong category, it can be a disturbing experience. (Moreso for Js and Ss, I'd assume)

The easy solution is to teach people early in life that gender is on a spectrum and that some people are physiologically and/or psychologically driven to want to change or correct their sex (or be identified as sexually neutral). But that conversation requires that the majority of adults have a cultural worldview that accepts such "deviations".

 

[crippli]

I personally don't fit any role on either side. I don't see transgender or gender roles as a healthy thought process or view. To me gender is simply a definition of what sex organ you have. Beyond that gender confusion shouldn't exist because social expectations on gender roles like they are should not exist.

Agreed. But in society gender roles exist. Sort of like saying hi when you meet a person, doing a genderrole is also considered polite. Like if you put on a skirt you are expected to do the skin, hair, makeup etc. If you put on pants, you are expected to do only the hair, and be clean. Or something along those lines. There is also behavior involved.

One can say it is similar to tax payments. If you don't comply to the rules, they will not be pleased. The grand question is who creates the rules? It's clearly not biological. So it's all invented. Some things, maybe quite a lot can be traced back through religion.

People clearly are affected by this. Take of their uniforms so they are nude. It will be the same situation, but people can not see that. Mass population ADHD or something.

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX6eWJfJtxk

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRXF5_vNUWE

 

[QuickTwist]

The OP is gone. You all did a bang up job for doing this.

If on the off chance the OP is still reading, it looks like you're in quite the predicament. I can't say I have any idea what it is like to be a woman for what its worth. I give advice as someone who grew up in a family that thought being gay/lesbian/trans is unacceptable, even morally wrong, and the only thing normal to do is to pretend that you are Asexual. I try really hard not to judge peoples sexuality and try to see people on an individual basis. What I can tell you coming from this background is that only psychos are out to condemn your sexuality. I can't say I mind either way if you decide to go trans or not. The only advice I can give is if you are considering an operation, you have to put more thought into it than normal people do for hard decisions to make. Realize that you body will not be the same afterwords. The ramifications of that are something not to be taken lightly. If you feel you don't fit the stereotype of what a woman is, which is a real problem that many people have, I would consider having an operation if and only if there was no other way to solve your problem. It does not make sense to do this fiscally, but I'm guessing that is not something that would mean that much. I highly recommend seeing a licensed psychologist every other week for no fewer than 3 months to give you time to fully consider what choice you want to make on going transgender. I have spent my fair share of time spilling my guts to a psychologist and they usually have a way to pull what you really think out of you. I wish you the best of luck whatever choice you decide to make.

 

[Architect]

I think this is the biggest factor in the struggles of transgendered, transsexual, and sexually ambiguous people.

I understand that viewpoint - I think we all probably do as INTP's. It was a big step in my family for me to come out as an Atheist (highly religious family). I used to think it must be what its like to be gay (or transgender or anything outside the norm). The first thing is people think you're making a choice. "You are choosing to be gay/transgender/etc", and likewise "You're choosing to be an atheist". Well no, there's no choice, I can't help but be one. I'm incapable of belief.

Anyhow I always felt sympathy, if not total understanding (because my gender and role was always unambiguous to me) to people in similar situations.

 

[Jennywocky]

I understand that viewpoint - I think we all probably do as INTP's. It was a big step in my family for me to come out as an Atheist (highly religious family). I used to think it must be what its like to be gay (or transgender or anything outside the norm). The first thing is people think you're making a choice. "You are choosing to be gay/transgender/etc", and likewise "You're choosing to be an atheist". Well no, there's no choice, I can't help but be one. I'm incapable of belief.

That's an interesting point, I can't remember if I ever broke it down so succinctly before at least in terms of my own views.

I didn't "choose" to not believe my own family's religious views either. There was a choice involved, although it was actually this: Being honest about how i viewed reality, versus consciously espousing what seemed to me to be a falsehood (which I had been doing for years at least to my family/subculture). So choosing a more agnostic position was actually a choice for honesty over duplicity, despite in another framework it being couched as "selfishness" and/or a choice to turn away from God.

Anyway, yeah, the parallel is similar in terms of identity issues.

 

[Grayman]

I'm incapable of belief.

Yes and no. It is a matter of focus and walling off a part of your mind and attention to details that prohibit a certain way of thinking. Extreme focus in killing doubt and avoiding things that bring doubt and focusing on possiblities of Gods interaction in everything you witness and see can foster belief. Religion is just that, a process for fostering belief.

Sexual attractions are not all that much different. Continual and deliberate focus on even the smallest parts of the person that you can find attractive can enable a habitual focus on the things that make the overall package become more attractive. While at the same time putting no focus on the unattractive parts that prohibit the overall attractiveness of the package. When relationships first begin people often accidently contribute to such focus to an unhealthy degree and then fail to sustain a small portion of it as the relationship goes on until they fall out of 'love'.

Whether the 'likes/dislikes' be tangable tastes smells or touches or simply ideas is irrelevent. It is simply a matter of what you have to work with and if your focus is strong enough to make it work. I think that the existence fo bisexuals and any number of odd sexual attractions is strong evidence that sexual attraction is not strictly or even mostly a product of birth. It very well could be a wiring of the brain but then focus and habits are a strong part of our wiring. Repetitive focus causes certain neurons to fire more often thus strengthening that wireing in the brain.

 

[Jennywocky]

Getting back on topic... that's not how gender dysphoria works. All this shit about reprogramming has been tried out already over decades, both in the area of sexual preference and gender identity, and it typically hasn't resulted in change. There's more notable stories now, after decades of this shit, where people just eventually break down and reaffirm their original feelings and/or kill themselves because of the fuckery their lives have become.

There's a reason why a lot of the anti-gay associations (like Exodus) eventually fold and their owners end up in committed relationships with same-sex partners; or their poster children (like John Paulk) who supposedly prove this kind of rehabilitation is generally plausible end up going right back to affirming their old identities ... but only after creating a lot of damage for other LGBT folk in western culture.

"If your focus is strong enough to make it work." What bullshit. Get out of the theoretical and start actually looking at case studies of real people; this has always been an area of weakness for you, in actually grounding your ideas in real life. This is the same bullshit that gets people killed on a daily basis because they can't make it work regardless of how brilliant or independent or mentally strong they happen to be; after years of trying to mentally change themselves, they're then left grappling with self-shame over their inability to change, a horrific loss of a life they can no longer feasibly try to live, and whatever extra shame, condemnation, and/or criticism people in society who don't get it dump in their laps as well as any roadblocks necessary to receiving support and treatment.

 

[Grayman]

"If your focus is strong enough to make it work." What bullshit. Get out of the theoretical and start actually looking at case studies of real people; this has always been an area of weakness for you, in actually grounding your ideas in real life. This is the same bullshit that gets people killed on a daily basis because they can't make it work regardless of how brilliant or independent or mentally strong they happen to be; after years of trying to mentally change themselves, they're then left grappling with self-shame over their inability to change, a horrific loss of a life they can no longer feasibly try to live, and whatever extra shame, condemnation, and/or criticism people in society who don't get it dump in their laps as well as any roadblocks necessary to receiving support and treatment.

I was not refering to shaming someone into dissociating their true nature in exchange for a false one. It is always a mistake to shame a person into changing and expecting them to change by enforcing them to do so through emotional influences while at the same time not giving them the proper tools or know how. I am not interested in influencing only in the discovery of tools.

My theories are not random thoughts pulled out of a metta universe but a method of understanding my own experiences fidning the core of how it works and applying it to other parts of my life.

In the end you are exaggerating and making this into something it isn't.

A thought: If a person cannot choose to like a gender role and the other person cannot choose to accept and embrace someone workign outside their gender role and the first person cannot live without the acceptance and some kind of affirmation from others the end result is inevitable.

Neither person can change the core of their belief or who they are but they both can choose to compromise on their lesser views giving them a place to accept eachother. Hence (yes and no)

 

[redbaron]

In the end you are exaggerating and making this into something it isn't.

Unfortunately she isn't. Suicide and depression are rampant in the LGBT community, fuelled largely by anti-gay zealotry. Anti-gay movements give credibility (in their perspective) to the actions of homophobes and perpetuates antagonism against gays.

There have been and still are "clinics" where gay children/teenagers were sent to be "cured". Some people go willingly. Most of the time it just makes things worse because now instead of simply being different, they're now also labelled as being defective in some way - they're gay not because it's a natural human phenomena but because they're actually flawed. Whatever issues they faced before are just exacerbated by this process.

Some people appear to get "cured" as Jenny noted, then just end up reverting back to preferring same sex relations anyway. This mentality of being able to change someone's sexuality as though it's a "choice" has been around for a long time and has done nothing but damage.

Even scientific studies are starting to crop up, documenting homosexual tendencies in various other mammals and all over the animal kingdom. Rams partnering exclusively with other rams for example.

I know you're not talking about shaming people, but that's not the point. The point is that even if it were possible to change someone to being heteronormative - why should they? No one's under any onus to change their sexual preferences and there's nothing wrong with being gay, bi, trans or any permutation thereof.

They don't need to change anything.

 

[Cherry Cola]

A thought: If a person cannot choose to like a gender role and the other person cannot choose to accept and embrace someone workign outside their gender role and the first person cannot live without the acceptance and some kind of affirmation from others the end result is inevitable.

Neither person can change the core of their belief or who they are but they both can choose to compromise on their lesser views giving them a place to accept eachother. Hence (yes and no)

Except people can learn to accept.

 

[Grayman]

Except people can learn to accept.

A person can learn to accept various roles in society.

It is more likely a person learns to accept things and adapt to them than all of society changing their views and expectations of that person.

 

[Grayman]

I know you're not talking about shaming people, but that's not the point. The point is that even if it were possible to change someone to being heteronormative - why should they? No one's under any onus to change their sexual preferences and there's nothing wrong with being gay, bi, trans or any permutation thereof.

They don't need to change anything.

I simply believe that 'it is not a choice' is not entirely accurate statement. I never argued they should or should not change that is entirely a personal matter. (Conserning Sexual Orientation)

 

[crippli]

A thought: If a person cannot choose to like a gender role and the other person cannot choose to accept and embrace someone workign outside their gender role and the first person cannot live without the acceptance and some kind of affirmation from others the end result is inevitable.

A question here is why the second person cannot accept the role of the first person? The first person is only about themselves. The second person is about others. The first person does something difficult. The second person something simplistic.

The scenario you describe is usually between parent and child. It is similar to want to give your child away if they are not as pretty as one hoped they would be. Or psychologically terrorizing them until they suicide. When put like that, few people would object the child/teenager was/is at fault. Why it's harder to see that it is the same when something becomes more abstract I don't know.

It's not just transgendered. Parents do a whole lot of stuff to their kids to have them become as they wish them to be. There are some things that cannot be changed. There are laws that prevent parents from cutting off their legs, if one feel they have grown too much. But when things become abstract, things apparently becomes difficult. And "cutting off their legs" becomes accepted, even cheered on.

 

[Grayman]

A question here is why the second person cannot accept the role of the first person? The first person is only about themselves. The second person is about others. The first person does something difficult. The second person something simplistic.

The scenario you describe is usually between parent and child. It is similar to want to give your child away if they are not as pretty as one hoped they would be. Or psychologically terrorizing them until they suicide. When put like that, few people would object the child/teenager was/is at fault. Why it's harder to see that it is the same when something becomes more abstract I don't know.

It's not just transgendered. Parents do a whole lot of stuff to their kids to have them become as they wish them to be. There are some things that cannot be changed. There are laws that prevent parents from cutting off their legs, if one feel they have grown too much. But when things become abstract, things apparently becomes difficult. And "cutting off their legs" becomes accepted, even cheered on.

Everyone lives in a society and in society it is never just you or what you want even when concerning your roles. They want to be fully individualistic while unwilling to compromise to exist and be fully accepted in society. I don't like a lot of things I have to do but I have to sacrifice some of my individuality to coexist. Right or wrong it is the reality of the situation.

The problem is that they believe that they 'are' a role vs they have one of many roles in life. Being a man is just a small role I have in life but my life is not just being a man. It is like this with careers also. A person I know thinks they 'are' a dentist and that is their role in life and when they cannot get a job they feel they have failed in life and go into depression. They are wrong. Beign a dentist is but one role in a life of many roles. It is frustrating seeing so many people give up on life because their are so focused on one thing and believe without a doubt that that one thing defines who they are instead of realizing that they are too complex to be defined.

 

[redbaron]

It is more likely a person learns to accept things and adapt to them than all of society changing their views and expectations of that person.

You're right, it is more likely. So much so that was the entire basis for slavery - individuals adapting and learning to accept the way things were, as opposed to society at large changing their views that black people are inferior and expecting them to obey them. Which highlights further the need for change in society.

LGBT people shouldn't learn to accept and adapt to systematic discrimination and prejudice anymore than black people.

The problem is that they believe that they 'are' a role vs they have one of many roles in life.

Or maybe the fact that in lots of areas people still get abused, bashed and murdered on the basis of their sexuality is the problem.

 

[Grayman]

You're right, it is more likely. So much so that was the entire basis for slavery - individuals adapting and learning to accept the way things were, as opposed to society at large changing their views that black people are inferior and expecting them to obey them. Which highlights further the need for change in society.

Certainly, but they didn't commit suicide over it. They adapted to their current situation and changed society over a long period of years.

You can adapt to your situation and still have a goal for change in the future.

 

[Grayman]

Or maybe the fact that in lots of areas people still get abused, bashed and murdered on the basis of their sexuality is the problem.

This happens for any number of reasons but mainly because certain people want to blame someone else for their shitty life.

 

[redbaron]

You can adapt to your situation and still have a goal for change in the future.

Who says gay people don't try to do that? They've been doing that for years and the goal for change in the future you talk about is what's happening now.

More to the point, what adaptation do you even expect them to make when they can't change their sexuality? How the fuck does someone "adapt" their sexual preference?

How about you try your own method: suck on a few cocks and take a few up the ass, then see if you're any more gay than you were before.

Let me know how it goes.

 

[Grayman]

Who says gay people don't try to do that? They've been doing that for years and the goal for change in the future you talk about is what's happening now.

More to the point, what adaptation do you even expect them to make when they can't change their sexuality? How the fuck does someone "adapt" their sexual preference?

How about you try your own method: suck on a few cocks and take a few up the ass, then see if you're any more gay than you were before.

Let me know how it goes.

Sure. Im slightly confused at the transition in topic from transgender to homosexuality.

 

[Laurelin]

Well I just found this forum from google and wanted to drop in as a male to female transsexual INTP. Its like I am cursed with this combination, being an INTP female is hard but this is something else. I had hard time convincing people (especially professionals) that I am trans because they expect stereotypes, I am not feminine enough for them to believe that I am trans. I am shunned by the society for being trans than I am shunned a second time for not being "woman" enough, I even have problems fitting in with other trans people because of this.

I do have genuine gender dysphoria, I hate my body, I hate my voice and I absolutely hate my genitals. It was impossible for me to play the role of a man. I tried to fit in but failed horribly than I attempted suicide 2 times in the past and I was only able to come to terms with my gender identity after the second one. Stereotypes aside I really like to dress up or using makeup but being an INTP I have zero fashion sense and I am a complete disaster at makeup so I just gave up on them. Dating is another story, dating as an INTP female is hard but being trans just makes it impossible for me, things would have been different if I was a lesbian but I am straight so I have zero luck in this department. Ah well I guess I am just going to devote my whole life into intellectual pursuits and die while being alone

I dropped in here because I was having a discussion on brain gender and hormones with my friends and they asked if I had any changes to my personalty after a year on hormone therapy and one topic lead to another and I realized how rare INTP women are when we were discussing typologies. One of my them suggested that it wasnt shocking to see an INTP trans woman and I just got curious and did a google research because I never met any INTP trans woman to this day, INTP trans man arent rare and I see a lot of INTJ trans woman on my support groups but I have yet to see an INTP one so I got curious

 

[Brontosaurie]

i'd like to ask the same question as your friends did. how does the hormone therapy alter mood, preferential thought patterns, interaction style etc?

my view is that male and female cognition are quite different overall mostly due to hormones so a trans perspective would be interesting, since you would have experienced both "hormone profiles". also how have the mental changes - if there are any - affected the level and character of gender dysphoria?

sorry for goin all INTP on you right away :P i got no personal experience to share.

 

[Jennywocky]

Well I just found this forum from google and wanted to drop in as a male to female transsexual INTP. Its like I am cursed with this combination, being an INTP female is hard but this is something else. I had hard time convincing people (especially professionals) that I am trans because they expect stereotypes, I am not feminine enough for them to believe that I am trans. I am shunned by the society for being trans than I am shunned a second time for not being "woman" enough, I even have problems fitting in with other trans people because of this.

I think that T transguys and F transwomen have the easier transition of the two. When you run against that grain, you're basically dealing with gender disparity + type disparity in your culture -- it's a double whammy.

The thing is, Thinking women and Feeling men (non-trans) also deal with this. You're not alone. There's a large percentage of the population of women who have had to integrate their sense of selves as Thinking women into a cultural framework that might not be as smoothly accepting of them. In that sense, you can take a little heart, since quantitatively a lot of women share that part of your experience of "not being feminine" enough in some ways.

Trans community can sometimes feel unwelcoming as well. People want to fit in, and some of them have bought into the social proclamations of what men and women are 'supposed to be' -- especially if they personally were fortunate enough to be the kind of person who can easily conform. So they are capable of selling out their fellow trans folks in order to better their own station... "Hey, compared to THAT transperson, I'd definitely more masculine/feminine, I'm one of you -- so accept me." Transpeople are capable of buying into social stereotypes as much as anyone else, and it can cause problems if they're changing their own personalities too much to fit in, although it's understandable based on how rigidly society can enforce its gender stereotypes and the quantitative ramifications of NOT fitting in.

I do have genuine gender dysphoria, I hate my body, I hate my voice and I absolutely hate my genitals. It was impossible for me to play the role of a man. I tried to fit in but failed horribly than I attempted suicide 2 times in the past and I was only able to come to terms with my gender identity after the second one. Stereotypes aside I really like to dress up or using makeup but being an INTP I have zero fashion sense and I am a complete disaster at makeup so I just gave up on them. Dating is another story, dating as an INTP female is hard but being trans just makes it impossible for me, things would have been different if I was a lesbian but I am straight so I have zero luck in this department. Ah well I guess I am just going to devote my whole life into intellectual pursuits and die while being alone

I have a lot of sympathy; You're at a low spot right now. At the same time, the situation is what it is. You are stuck with it. It's your life and no one else's. So you have to embrace it and somehow find a way through. No one else can fix it. your journey will just be more difficult than some people's, but that is just what it is. If you feel you need to walk this route, then if you want to succeed, you will have to embrace the negatives and work hard to make the positives to accrue... Still, if you believe in what you are doing, then it's best to embrace it and not apologize or second-guess.

Some of your body can be fixed. Your genitals can be fixed. With training, your voice can be improved. You can pick up some feminine mannerisms, if you want to fit in better. Some of that will cost time and money, and it won't ever be perfect, but it can be better. Again, is it what you feel you need to do for yourself to be content and thus freed to focus on just living? That's the question to answer. if the answer is yes, then it's like Yoda says: "Do or not do. There is no try."

Fashion sense, to some degree, can be learned. But the reality is that men and women are more than just their clothes. If you believe yourself to be an INTP woman, then find clothing styles that reflect who you are and your capabilities. Not every women wears (or looks best) in hot fashions and dressing up all the time. INTPs in general seem to have an a-cultural approach to clothes, tshirts and jeans are quite popular. If you want to improve your fashion, find some cisgen women with clothing and makeup skills to teach you. There's also a lot of online tutorials on these things, put out by both cisgen and trans females. it won't come easy for you, it will be a process that you need to persevere with and simply do your best with.

As far as the dating thing goes: Yeah, I'm sorry. Western men aren't comfortable with trans women in general (aside from the fetishists), and especially if you have large aspects of yourself that come across as masculine. There are transwomen who do manage to marry men / have boyfriends, but that's not as common as transwomen who end up being lesbians or being in relationships with other transpeople. There is a reason for that -- transpeople are typically less hung up on gender of others, they grasp the issues and can look past them. I think it's one of the things you accept and "put on the back burner" -- focus on your transition first, worry about a relationship later when you know what you will be working with it. You can't do everything at once.

I dropped in here because I was having a discussion on brain gender and hormones with my friends and they asked if I had any changes to my personalty after a year on hormone therapy and one topic lead to another and I realized how rare INTP women are when we were discussing typologies. One of my them suggested that it wasnt shocking to see an INTP trans woman and I just got curious and did a google research because I never met any INTP trans woman to this day, INTP trans man arent rare and I see a lot of INTJ trans woman on my support groups but I have yet to see an INTP one so I got curious

In my experience, INTP transwomen are a lower percentage of trans people than they are in the regular population, and INFP transwomen are a higher percentage in the trans population than the regular population. I know some ENTJ transwomen, ironically -- you wouldn't expect that, but, well, they exist too. Think how they feel... their entire type is masculine by social standards. (Then again, I think they're also lesbians so they don't have to deal with male partners who might feel insecure around them.)

 

[TBerg]

This discussion is why it is so important to keep the personal out of the political and the political out of the personal, because each infects the other with esoteric or exoteric biases that confound the actual problem. What the OP was concerned about was their personal place in the world, which can have either negative or positive implications for society as a whole. It is their job to be a good citizen and care about justice and freedom overall without regard for their personal livelihood. This is part of having a genuinely liberal society unencumbered by reactionary or leftist identity politics. But the OP did not mention anything political.

The fact is that the OP needs to find a personal space where their full personality in all its virtue can be expressed without regard to people's irrational and unfair expectations of them. This is a fundamental human desire. We do not want to be encumbered by a condition of vulnerable narcissism or borderline issues that threaten our every move throughout our day. We do not want to be rejected or threatened for showing who we are deep inside. This applies regardless of any formal restrictions existant or nonexistant. It is our job as society to accept human nature and the OP for what they are and find a way to channel nature into socially harmonious behavior. So we should accept when feminine males express a more bountiful array of beauty and delicacy, and we should accept when masculine females express a more bountiful array of commanding knowledge. This is beneficial for both the individual and society as a whole. The thing that fucks up the conversation is when leftists deny natural categories and when reactionaries deny diversity among the expression of natural categories. Fundamentally we are all individuals with unique strengths and weaknesses inbuilt with certain natural dispositions.

Now, I am not very good at personal advice, but I know for certain that we must take the OP at face value and ask probing questions about where the vulnerabilities actually lie without giving dismissive answers to their problems. There are usually profound reasons why they are saying what they are saying, whether rational or not. You have to respect this at some level, because otherwise the best you are doing is putting a bandaid on a tumor or causing greater metastasization. This is how personal conversations happen.

The thing about transgenderism of varying degrees is that the person might to feel like they have a place in the society that surrounds them. It is not only that they might feel threatened, but that the things they have learned throughout their lives on a subtle and deep level tell them they do not fit into what is considered praiseworthy or respectable. They thereby have sometimes a deep disconnection to themselves for trying to be someone they are not, and sometimes a deep disappointment in themselves for failing to live up to the praiseworthy standards. This cannot be resolved by assertions of bland political correctness, nor can it be resolved by mere commands to fit into certain molds. It can only be resolved by people around them celebrating their expressions of their deepest natures, in whatever amalgamation or purity.

The OP needs not only a relief from repression but a celebrated place.

And to the OP: I love both masculinity and femininity in a variety of people. Just find a way to be good at it.

 

[Laurelin]

i'd like to ask the same question as your friends did. how does the hormone therapy alter mood, preferential thought patterns, interaction style etc?

my view is that male and female cognition are quite different overall mostly due to hormones so a trans perspective would be interesting, since you would have experienced both "hormone profiles". also how have the mental changes - if there are any - affected the level and character of gender dysphoria?

sorry for goin all INTP on you right away :P i got no personal experience to share.

haha no problem because been there, done that

first of all we need to talk about the causes of gender dysphoria (GD), the current approach in the medical community is GD in trans women is caused by insufficient masculinisation of the brain during pregnancy. there is lots of research done to back this up and I will just give something simple for now:

[bIMG]http://i.imgur.com/pFTl799.png[/bIMG]

so yeah, I never had a "male" brain to start with. there are various degrees to this insufficient masculinisation which kinda explains the whole trans umbrella with varying degrees of dysphoria. mine was quite heavy to begin with but being a damn INTP I followed logic rather than emotions and told myself to take my feelings to the grave when I was a little kid. Even at that age I knew how destructive this condition would be if people found out because I was already bullied at kindergarden for not being a proper boy. I never had any interest in playing with boys and girls never accepted me as one of their own so when you combine that with being an INTP I was always alone in my school life.

The way I found to deal with gender dysphroia was dedicating my life to intellectual pursuits and trying to forget the fact that I was a human being, I kinda lived like a bodyless existence, avoiding photos, videos, mirrors, always wearing the same stuff, not watching my weight and avoiding social contacts altogether. My dysphoria got worser every single year to such degree that I completly shut myself in my room and avoided all contact for 5 years. I finished collage from home and I only got out when I was invited to a masters program in a prestigious university and just when I was trying to cope to everyday life I was sent to europe to do research on my thesis. I kinda snapped there and attempted suicide 2 times, even something as simple as going to the toilet was bringing me to tears and I was extremely jealous around women to such degree that I kinda shutted my self in public toilets and cried for hours when I saw a pretty girl outside. I was forced to talk with professionals after the second suicide attempt and I just came out to them and screamed that I felt like a woman. one thing led to another and they kinda convinced me into transitioning which was quite a feat because I always thought that those that transitioned were weak and were slaves to their emotions.

TLDR I was never a man to start with, I never managed to act like one and I just tried to erase all traces of my feminine personality in order to survive

when it comes to hormones I can clearly say that the physiological changes were the fastest ones, I need to mind you that some of them are just placebo effects because transitioning was just like releasing the flood gates so discerning real changes from the ones that were there to start with is quite hard when it comes to the mind. The ones that I am 100% sure are:

-less aggression, I am quite mellow now and it is extremely hard to get me angry let alone violent like I used to when I was influenced by testosterone induced rage. I destroyed many expensive stuff on my rages before transition and I was easy to flare up

-less libido, I kinda relieved myself several times a day before hormones and I always felt terrible about that after the act was done, being on E is like jumping into cold water after hours in the desert sun, I cant really describe that feeling of serenity

-avoiding risks, being less competitive, well this is no suprise because it is already proven that businesswomen have much more testestorone in their bodies when compared with housewifes and my T levels are now close to zero which is even below the lowest levels in biological females.

-increased attraction to males, I could have described myself as an aromantic person before transition but now I can barely resist acting like a complete goof around attractive males, I can clearly smell them now and sometimes those smells really make my head spin (these might be placebo effects!)

-being more emotional, yeah my emotions are like a roller coaster now, I can easily cry one minute and than smile like a lunatic in the next

-being more conscious of my outside appearance, dont confuse this with being vain, I was outright obese before transition but now I am just slightly overweight, I kinda lost like 140 pounds around 10 months after beginning this process. I dont want to look like a barbie or a princess but I just want to look decent, natural and clean and that is enough for me. I just want to pass as a plain average girl and my desires just dont go beyond that.

-being more talkative in general to the point that I can discuss intellectual and nerdy topics with ease now (this might be placebo!)

-my color perception has changed, its like I lived in a black and white world before transition, I can see all kinds of shades now and world seems brilliant like I just upgradet from an old BW CRT TV to a brand new HD TV (this might be placebo!)

so yeah this is it, its not like you can go from INTP to ESFJ with hormones but you already know that hormones really help with dysphoria, there was research on de-transitioners who rushed to their therapist after some time on hormones claiming that they no longer feel the dyshphoria and wanted to go back, around 95% percent of them went back to their therapist after stopping hormone therapy claiming that their dysphoria is back with testosterone.

 

[Brontosaurie]

great response, valuable insights and imagery. thank you!

 

[8151147]

I've never think that I will change my body transgender, but I always think I'm a female when I was a kid.
I might be not a transgender person but my mind is kinda transsexual. When I was a child, girls in my class told that I look like a girl however. And I've never told to anyone that I'm an asexual in real life.

I don't think this is relate to MBTI type. Doens't matter, God create me as a girl live in my mind, I do what I want.

 

[Scary Larry]

Hey, I'm another trans INTP! I'm FTM, though I'm not medically transitioning right now. I'm just out to my family and a few friends at my church. I read the starting post of this thread and thought, that person sounds just like me when I was just figuring out what was wrong with me.

I have always thought that the experiences of first few years of our life play a huge role in what our personality type winds up being. I think that being trans in part turned me into a INTP by making life inside my head so much more palatable than being with others. When I was small my mother said that I was very talkative, but when I got to kindergarten I clammed up. What my mother didn't know was that I was essentially a BOY in an ALL GIRLS kindergarten class! Who wouldn't clam up?

 

[Scary Larry]

The problem is that they believe that they 'are' a role vs they have one of many roles in life. Being a man is just a small role I have in life but my life is not just being a man.

What you don't understand about being transgender is that is NOT about gender roles. It's NOT about gender expression.

Everyone*, you, me, and everyone gender identifies as a toddler. That means at some point when you are toddler you have this deep sense of whether you are a girl or a boy. It is unconscious and, it is not a choice, and after a young age no one can change it.

(*everyone except the in-between genders, that are analogous to the intersexed)

 

[Neckbeard]

If you're going to be transginger, do it properly. If you don't think you'll ever completely ppass as a woman due to a manly jaw or whatever, don't do it. You don't want to look like a freak.

 

[Jennywocky]

If you're going to be transginger, do it properly. If you don't think you'll ever completely ppass as a woman due to a manly jaw or whatever, don't do it. You don't want to look like a freak.

Yeah, cause it's all about appearance and passing privilege, and no cisgen folks ever get mistaken for the opposite gender.

 

[Neckbeard]

Yeah, cause it's all about appearance and passing privilege, and no cisgen folks ever get mistaken for the opposite gender.

If it's not about appearance then why bother with a sex change?

 

[Jennywocky]

If it's not about appearance then why bother with a sex change?

You should take ten minutes and actually research the topic a little.

 

[Neckbeard]

You should take ten minutes and actually research the topic a little.

Or maybe you should start thinking and stop feeling.

 

[Jennywocky]

Or maybe you should start thinking and stop feeling.

That was predictable, honestly.

You misunderstand me, so turn on your head a moment: If you were talking about Plato's Cave, and someone said, "Who's Plato?", would you waste ten minutes explaining who Plato was, or would you say, "Please go read about Plato for ten minutes, get a sense of what we're talking about, and then come back and we can actually have a discussion?"

There's no sense in investing time in people who haven't even taken the time to read the thread or learn something basic about the topic. And hell, even cisgen Chinese women pay for jaw surgery nowadays. Your comments seem misinformed from the beginning.

 

[Neckbeard]

That was predictable, honestly.

You misunderstand me, so turn on your head a moment: If you were talking about Plato's Cave, and someone said, "Who's Plato?", would you waste ten minutes explaining who Plato was, or would you say, "Please go read about Plato for ten minutes, get a sense of what we're talking about, and then come back and we can actually have a discussion?"

There's no sense in investing time in people who haven't even taken the time to read the thread or learn something basic about the topic.

If you understand something properly, it can be explained in a paragraph.

I think you misunderstand my original post. Perhaps I worded it incorrectly. By freak, I mean, you don't want everyone to know you're a transsexual. Now does that sound more reasonable?

 

[redbaron]

Dupe account trolls are so cute.

On the off chance you're not just trying to get a rise out of people: appearance really isn't the major factor that motivates people to get a sex change. Trans people don't undergo HRT so they can look like another gender - they do it because they feel like they simply are the wrong gender.

They don't want to 'look' like the other gender, they want to BE the other gender. There's natural born women and men who look androgynous as it is (and who play up to that), but who have no desire to undergo a sex change. They're happy being a womanly man or whatever and that's cool. It's entirely different to actually feeling like you're the wrong gender.

By freak, I mean, you don't want everyone to know you're a transsexual.

Trans people wouldn't care if people didn't have so many idiotic hangups about gender roles.

So no, having a manly chin isn't a reason to not undergo a sex change.