INTP+Love=Cynicism&Depression

[LoneTophat]

I don't know about you, but this is what's happened to me.
I've given up on finding a nice teenage girl to be romantic with and still have intellectual conversations with. I just can't relate to those I fall in love with, and often they can't relate back to me either. It seems like all my past teenage love follies ended up with a meaningless sexually based relationship where love wasn't present.

There are other issues ofcourse, I classify as having moderate sociopathic tendencies and have been diagnosed with hypersexuality. (I don't believe shit about ADHD so I won't list it here). So. My issues with relating emotionally and lack of social skills usually set me up for folly anyway, but with this other pieces of the puzzle, I'm just as attractive as a tuna sandwich which has been rotting in the sun for three hours.

Why can't girls like politics, science, or literature? WHY!? All they want to talk about in my city is fashion, pop music, and drugs+sex. I just... I feel ultimately surrounded by unintelligent fools, which makes me sound egotistical I know.

Sometimes I think I am. Sigh. Another issue. :\ And my blatant sarcastic comments during my critique of people tend to not go over well either.

 

[Dionysus]

Dude, awesome. I relate to alot here. But there are definitely girls who are intellectual.. Perhaps your "picker" is fucked up.. Too much porn maybe? Seriously, think about it.

In my past I had a serious issue going for the hotties, but when it came time to actually talk, I was just void of inspiration. I would end up sitting there analyzing or imagining sex, which would ultimately end in failure. Unfortunately, the physically abled women are not going to be so mentally abled, on average. You will have to deal with this and save your quest for "love" for one you can also claim as a "mindmate." Learn to be honest with girls and things will change. This is not an overnight process and if you are a "teen" know that you are too damn young for politics, man. Girls will not catch up to that until probably end of college, based on my experience

 

[LoneTophat]

But crony capitalism won't wait until then D: It's destroying America now ._.;

 

[yogurtexpress]

Yeah, I fell in love with a girl who wasn't right for me, too. Except I didn't even get any sex out of it.

Being a teen is too young for politics? I've been interested in politics since I was about 13...

 

[Dimensional Transition]

Meh.

Somewhat know what you mean. I don't really fall for slutty, dumb pornstar types though.
I'm more into the sensitive, quiet artistic types of girls. Who I hope are intelligent. They usually end up being intelligent... but just so shy and quiet you still really have to put a lot of effort into having a good conversation.

Being in love makes me depressed and cynical as fuck though, unless I'm around the person. I just never feel like I'm able to be of any value to the other. That, plus I don't know shit about how to pick up on clues, and the way girls perceive things. I just keep going down a pathetic hole of self-pity until I have a nice chat with the girl again.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

I just can't relate to those I fall in love with, and often they can't relate back to me either. It seems like all my past teenage love follies ended up with a meaningless sexually based relationship where love wasn't present.

Not sure how old you are, but this pretty much sounds like being a teenager. A teenager who is "in love" is usually just infatuated. Of course, there are exceptions, but most teenage relationships won't have a lot of depth. It sounds cheesy, but people (some anyway) get deeper as they get older and gain more experience. Plus most teens haven't even fully developed their identity.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is, maybe you're looking for the wrong things. If you can't relate to the people with whom you "fall in love," then you probably weren't a good match to begin with. Sex can release a lot of hormones, which go especially nuts (pun intended) in a teenage body. It can be hard for adults to tell the difference between infatuation and real connection, so don't expect to be good at it right away. Teenage dating is a time to be learning the rules for interacting with the opposite sex (or the same sex, if that's how you roll) as well as learning about yourself and what you're looking for in a partner both sexually and emotionally. Don't be so concerned with finding love. Finding your own comfort zone is more important; the more comfortable you are with yourself, the easier you will find it to be comfortable around others.

There are other issues ofcourse, I classify as having moderate sociopathic tendencies and have been diagnosed with hypersexuality. (I don't believe shit about ADHD so I won't list it here). So. My issues with relating emotionally and lack of social skills usually set me up for folly anyway, but with this other pieces of the puzzle, I'm just as attractive as a tuna sandwich which has been rotting in the sun for three hours.

Again, I don't know how old you are, but a diagnosis of hypersexuality in a teenager might be a little premature (pun again intended). Since you seem unconvinced about ADHD, I would assume that you're somewhat skeptical about your hypersexuality "diagnosis" as well, and perhaps for good reason. Do you feel like your sex drive is interfering in your life? Are you unable to meet your obligations on account of your sex drive? Does it bother you, or does it bother others? If you're just horny (even really really horny) you're probably normal. But if you're missing deadlines because you're masturbating non-stop, you might have a problem. Given you're upset about the fact that your relationships so far have been mostly based on sex, it sounds to me as though you actually do care at least a little bit about your partners. That doesn't sound sociopathic. Sexual guilt can be mitigated through honesty; if your partners know what you want out of a relationship, be it just sex or more, then they can adjust their expectations accordingly.

As far as "moderate sociopathic tendencies," awareness of your own tendencies is the key to mitigation. For you (assuming that you do exhibit such tendencies) this means that you have to be vigilant about displaying respect for your partners. Enthusiastic consent and participation are required. Watch yourself for manipulative behaviors.

tl;dr: Being horny is part of being a teenager, and it's only a problem if it interferes with your daily obligations or if you feel significant distress about it. When it comes to relationships, be honest and up-front about what you expect to get out of it.

 

[sammael]

Not sure how old you are, but this pretty much sounds like being a teenager. A teenager who is "in love" is usually just infatuated. Of course, there are exceptions, but most teenage relationships won't have a lot of depth. It sounds cheesy, but people (some anyway) get deeper as they get older and gain more experience. Plus most teens haven't even fully developed their identity.

+1

Be careful you're not idealising relationships, and what you will get from a partner. I know I did that when I was young, and was never satisfied. Now that I'm a bit older and wiser I realise there is always going to be big differences and disappointments. Everyone has flaws. I don't believe any one single person will be able to meet all of another's needs. Have a think about your expectations, and whether they are reasonable.

Personally I have given up on expecting to be intellectually satisfied from a partner. It is more important to me that this person accepts me, is caring and loving, is fun to be with, and is attractive as a woman. Obviously what's important will vary dependant on the person, just realise you're never going to get everything. That's what friends are for, filling in the gaps

 

[Akuma]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]Agreeing with Spaceman Spiff
"Attractive. Intelligent. Sane. Pick Two" - Law of Relationships

All I can say is, the word "love" is far too overused.
You're young too.

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

 

[yogurtexpress]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]Agreeing with Spaceman Spiff
"Attractive. Intelligent. Sane. Pick Two" - Law of Relationships[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

In that case, I pick attractive and sane. All the girls I liked were bright, pretty lunatics.

 

[magicMount]

+1

just realise you're never going to get everything. That's what friends are for, filling in the gaps

yep,friends and lovers,great balance!

 

[magicMount]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]Agreeing with Spaceman Spiff
"Attractive. Intelligent. Sane. Pick Two" - Law of Relationships

All I can say is, the word "love" is far too overused.
You're young too.

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

The older I am, the lower standard I set for LOVE.
I was just too Idealism in the past which is not as good as I thought.
Now I learn to be more patient with others and show more respect.

 

[Tudordee]

I see myself as an intellectually inclined girl.
What city are you in lonetophat.

 

[thelithiumcat]

I'm also an intellectual girl. My friend (an INTJ girl) and I were talking and we agreed that neither of us felt one of the women, but neither did we feel that we were more one of the men. We decided we were in some sort of middle category. We also agreed that a room of women is scarier than a room of men.

I'm not the definition of what one would call "feminine". I have, currently, four friends whom I engage in extended conversation with at this moment (and that's pushing it). The two whom I choose to see outside of school don't or, in the case of my INTJ, haven't been at my school for much time at all for most of at least the last three to five years. As such, I've become incredibly introverted, over-thinking (if there is such a thing), self-critical, self-observing, withdrawn, solitary...

I'm aware that I'm perhaps a little off topic here, and I apologise for that if I am. I thought I should probably explain that before I moved onto my next point. As a female I have had, and still have, my own issues with relationships. They may seem rather odd. I am so protective of my intellectual mind and lack of stereotypical femininity that in my only relationship (with a christian - I found out through someone else - guy whom I expect was an ExFP of some sort) my single greatest fear was that he would do anything which would suggest that I was otherwise. He had to force me to go to dances and out to dinner in a dress (an item of clothing I loathe for its impracticality - I would far rather wear a suit). I wonder, are these my own version of your problems with stereotypical women that you have had as men? Another issue that I have is that I must be able to assert my intelligence in conversation with a guy but he needs to be intelligent enough to hold a conversation with me. It's an extremely fine balance. Anyway, while I realise that relationship wasn't really a very good example of what one should be like (I didn't explain all the reasons for which I did not like it) I found it to be extremely uncomfortable and far too stressful so I've decided it to defer it until something causes me to consider otherwise.

As an addendum, I spent most of today doing chemistry practicals and then the last lesson logically deconstructing the invalid arguments of some extremely narrow-minded christians who came in to run an RS day. I believe this is an example of asserting my intelligence which I mentioned earlier, and that it is a compulsive reaction to a partially rational paranoia.

I'll stop before I go any further. This could go on for a long time...

 

[sammael]

^lithium, what kind of guy are you most attracted to..?

 

[Dimensional Transition]

@thelithiumcat: Problems I have with not being a stereotypical male:

I try to stay observing. I'm not dominant. at. all. I'm not serving either. I'm just an individual that's seemingly out of reach for everyone. I think women want some sort of warm, beary, dominant guy. Instead I radiate detachment, observation and latent madness.

I also hate sports. I go to the gym to keep my body healthy and to increase muscle in order to seem more attractive at the beach I guess, but that's where it stops. Sport is fucking boring.

I don't like making cruel jokes about other guys when they're there in order to make myself seem more powerful. I find it pathetic and childish.

My tolerance to alcohol is also pretty low, and I've noticed I get a few weird looks for not drinking as much as most other guys. Which also just seems incredibly childish to me.

There's more, but this is what I could think of right now.

On the other hand, my emotional n(d)umbness is something that's more of a cliché masculine thing, I hope/suppose. Which is something I cling on to because of all the other things. Apathy. Making cynical comments.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Spoiler

@thelithiumcat: Problems I have with not being a stereotypical male:

I try to stay observing. I'm not dominant. at. all. I'm not serving either. I'm just an individual that's seemingly out of reach for everyone. I think women want some sort of warm, beary, dominant guy. Instead I radiate detachment, observation and latent madness.

I also hate sports. I go to the gym to keep my body healthy and to increase muscle in order to seem more attractive at the beach I guess, but that's where it stops. Sport is fucking boring.

I don't like making cruel jokes about other guys when they're there in order to make myself seem more powerful. I find it pathetic and childish.

My tolerance to alcohol is also pretty low, and I've noticed I get a few weird looks for not drinking as much as most other guys. Which also just seems incredibly childish to me.

There's more, but this is what I could think of right now.

On the other hand, my emotional n(d)umbness is something that's more of a cliché masculine thing, I hope/suppose. Which is something I cling on to because of all the other things. Apathy. Making cynical comments.

I can relate to a lot of that. Since I don't like taking part in the usual "guy" conversations (sports, ripping on each other continually...do guys without a lot of depth really talk about anything else?) I often find that I get along better with women if it's a low-pressure situation, i.e., a situation in which it has already been established that romance just won't be a part of it. It's a cliché that as soon as you are in a relationship, other members of the dating pool suddenly want you more, but this cliché is based in reality at least to some degree. When there is no romantic pressure, it's a lot easier to feel comfortable or even confident, which in turn makes one seem more attractive.

Trying to put yourself in the same mindset can ease a situation in which there is romantic pressure. I really think that a lot of the deer-in-headlights phenomenon by which young people on dates freeze up and don't talk comes down to fear that it might get screwed up. Something like, "If I talk, I'll say something stupid or offensive and then she won't like me."

If you remind yourself, however, that she already doesn't like you because she doesn't know you, then the pressure is off. If she rejects you, you've lost nothing and gained experience you can put to use next time. But if she doesn't, then you've gained an opportunity to get to know someone and there is a remote possibility that a relationship will develop. So as long as you don't go around being a total dick, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain from the possibility of rejection. Adjusting your internalized stakes in this way frees you to "be yourself" (I've always kind of hated that phrase; who else would I be, after all?) and avoid disappointment when it doesn't work out.

Sorry to go off on a tangent from the thread topic, but maybe someone will find it encouraging. Anyhow, dating is a cruel game and there is no rulebook to reference when you're not sure what to do next.

 

[downsowf]

+1

Be careful you're not idealising relationships, and what you will get from a partner. I know I did that when I was young, and was never satisfied. Now that I'm a bit older and wiser I realise there is always going to be big differences and disappointments. Everyone has flaws. I don't believe any one single person will be able to meet all of another's needs. Have a think about your expectations, and whether they are reasonable.

Personally I have given up on expecting to be intellectually satisfied from a partner. It is more important to me that this person accepts me, is caring and loving, is fun to be with, and is attractive as a woman. Obviously what's important will vary dependant on the person, just realise you're never going to get everything. That's what friends are for, filling in the gaps

well said sir

 

[Dimensional Transition]

I can relate to a lot of that. Since I don't like taking part in the usual "guy" conversations (sports, ripping on each other continually...do guys without a lot of depth really talk about anything else?) I often find that I get along better with women if it's a low-pressure situation, i.e., a situation in which it has already been established that romance just won't be a part of it. It's a cliché that as soon as you are in a relationship, other members of the dating pool suddenly want you more, but this cliché is based in reality at least to some degree. When there is no romantic pressure, it's a lot easier to feel comfortable or even confident, which in turn makes one seem more attractive.

Trying to put yourself in the same mindset can ease a situation in which there is romantic pressure. I really think that a lot of the deer-in-headlights phenomenon by which young people on dates freeze up and don't talk comes down to fear that it might get screwed up. Something like, "If I talk, I'll say something stupid or offensive and then she won't like me."

If you remind yourself, however, that she already doesn't like you because she doesn't know you, then the pressure is off. If she rejects you, you've lost nothing and gained experience you can put to use next time. But if she doesn't, then you've gained an opportunity to get to know someone and there is a remote possibility that a relationship will develop. So as long as you don't go around being a total dick, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain from the possibility of rejection. Adjusting your internalized stakes in this way frees you to "be yourself" (I've always kind of hated that phrase; who else would I be, after all?) and avoid disappointment when it doesn't work out.

Sorry to go off on a tangent from the thread topic, but maybe someone will find it encouraging. Anyhow, dating is a cruel game and there is no rulebook to reference when you're not sure what to do next.

Very well-said. The 'be yourself' phrase is also something I kind of dislike, because, even if you're acting 'not like yourself' it's still an attribute of being yourself... So... Even acting out of your character is just you being yourself, in a way...
But I understand what you mean here.

It's very hard to realize for young people like me that if you just be yourself, there's nothing to worry about. If she likes you the way you are, the relationship could go somewhere, if you act like someone you aren't really when you're completely comfortable, that'll obviously come out later in the relationship, resulting in a more painful heartbreak.

I still feel kind of down because I can't talk to this girl right now. Fuck. 'Love' (yeah yeah, infatuation then, whatever you want to call it.) really is depressing to me. And the over-thinking doesn't help either. I always end up in some sort of worry-cycle, until I talk to the girl again. Then I become happy. I wish I knew how other people manage to magically end up cuddling and kissing while talking too. That'd be awesome.

 

[Moocow]

Here are some fundamentally flawed expectations about relationships that I have heard from both INTPs and ISTPs and my take on them... These may or may not have been mentioned in this thread, but I've seen them in other threads like this:


-Must provide intellectual stimulation: Intellectual stimulation can come later as you get to know someone deeper and learn about their complexities, and you can find it by applying your intellect to help your mate grow in ways they couldn't alone. Why would they need you if they're already brilliant and independent?

-Can't be too clingy, too dependent, or too emotional: No offense intended, but grow up! We all have emotions and we all depend on people. Don't be scared if someone does more so. They're only human and something you have to eventually learn from a relationship is that you are too.

-Must let you be yourself: To varying degrees, pretty much no one does. Especially if you're like us and spend a lot of time alone examining yourself, no one will ever meet that standard of comfort. Again, you have to MAKE it by establishing a level of communication and trust such that you will eventually feel perfectly at home with the person. That takes a lot of time and sacrifice, including sacrifice of the ego. You don't know yourself as well as you think and if you believe you really do, you may be blind to everything you can become. Fear of "losing yourself" is irrational.

-Commitment, etc.: You never have to commit, and in my opinion it is better that you don't if for its own sake. Commitment without unquestionable love is a vain attempt to appear responsible or successful at something. People commit to relationships often because they think they have to prove something to others or themselves. A relationship can be started, maintained, and kept on the basis that it's simply good for both people and they know it.

I fully understand the general disillusionment that many INTPs feel about relationships. The primary error is in letting yourself become bitter because of it when you could become stronger, more patient, and more understanding. This means no longer looking desperately for an ideal relationship, but rather for some kind of change within yourself that will lead you to one.

(I apologize if my tone here all comes off as contrary. I'm speaking from the experience that I used to hold these assumptions myself, and shall never return to them.)

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

I still feel kind of down because I can't talk to this girl right now. Fuck. 'Love' (yeah yeah, infatuation then, whatever you want to call it.) really is depressing to me. And the over-thinking doesn't help either. I always end up in some sort of worry-cycle, until I talk to the girl again. Then I become happy.

I think you build up a tolerance as you get older. Part of this is due to your hormones settling down a bit, and also in part because you just have more experiences against which you can weigh your present circumstances. When you find worrisome thoughts entering your head, it's a lot easier to dismiss them when you know they've been wrong in the past.

Remember, most people in western countries get married in their late 20s. According to Wikipedia, the average age of first marriage in your country is 30.7 for men, 28.3 for women (although these figures are admittedly skewed and there is a conspicuous lack of citation for the figure pertaining to the Netherlands, you can see from the wiki article that average ages of marriage in industrialized countries are generally between 20-30). You're 16 (and OP has implied that he is also a teenager), so seriously: take it easy. Take your time. Get to know people, and yourself. You'll figure it out as you go along, even if you need a little help from your social support network.

I wish I knew how other people manage to magically end up cuddling and kissing while talking too. That'd be awesome.

It's not magic, it's hard work. You probably won't realize how hard it is until you have your first knock-down drag-out shouting match with a long-term significant other. These things can be especially hard to INT types who don't easily deal with emotions in the open (my grasp on MBTI pales in comparison to many others on the forum, so if my statement isn't justified I hope someone will correct me).

Moocow's post above is particularly relevant to this point (though I won't quote it since it was posted after I started writing this). Especially the part about not requiring commitment. When I first started dating my finacee, we agreed to keep things casual and let the relationship take its own course. It wasn't until a few months later that we realized how upset we both would be if the other one were to date someone else, and once we talked it over we decided to commit to exclusivity.

 

[Dimensional Transition]

I am well aware I have quite some time left for marriage, yes. But I would like to get some relationship-experience before that as well, so I don't end up panicking when I'm 30 and don't know what to do. And the age of 16-20 seems ideal for that. Plus, I have really quite liked this girl for about a year. I'm slow, but determined, I guess.

Well, what is this hard work? Seriously. When I talk to peers about the subject, some are like me, some are even worse, but there are those who always manage to get close to a girl within a month. They'll be cuddling and shit... I mean, I'd like that too, you know. It seems cosy. I have no clue how to get more 'intimate' with someone without laughing really hard at myself.

 

[Moocow]

I have no clue how to get more 'intimate' with someone without laughing really hard at myself.

That seems like a rather inappropriate, even bizarre reaction. Are you sure that's really what you feel, or have you degraded intimacy that much in favor of some kind of cold masculinity?

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

I am well aware I have quite some time left for marriage, yes. But I would like to get some relationship-experience before that as well, so I don't end up panicking when I'm 30 and don't know what to do. And the age of 16-20 seems ideal for that.

Yeah, that was pretty much my point.

Plus, I have really quite liked this girl for about a year. I'm slow, but determined, I guess.

So now everybody on INTPf knows how you feel about her. Does she know? Does she have the same feelings about you?

Well, what is this hard work? Seriously. When I talk to peers about the subject, some are like me, some are even worse, but there are those who always manage to get close to a girl within a month. They'll be cuddling and shit... I mean, I'd like that too, you know. It seems cosy. I have no clue how to get more 'intimate' with someone without laughing really hard at myself.

I think I know where you are coming from. I struggled for a long time to figure out when and how it was appropriate to touch someone else flirtatiously, and I seriously pissed a few girls off in the process. I thought I was flirting; they thought I was a creep. I wasn't trying to be creepy, I was just ignorant of the fact that they weren't responding in a way that invited more. It didn't really click for me until someone else pointed it out. I was also blind to the fact that when they did respond positively, such as by affectionately touching me back, it probably meant they were interested. I lost an opportunity for a relationship with someone I had strong feelings for because I didn't act on her physical indications of interest. This really comes down to reading people and interpreting body language.

I'm not sure I'm being very responsive to your point, but it's incredibly difficult to say how one should proceed from conversation to physical contact given all the human variables involved. If I had to formulate a general rule for initiating physical contact, I would say start with something small and socially appropriate to most settings (for example, a brief touch on the arm or shoulder as you say goodbye). If you get a positive response, then you can start thinking about going further. Nothing says, "I want to kiss you right now," like looking in a girl's eyes and pushing her hair back behind her ear, but beware! It can easily come off as creepy, so use with discretion. If, at any point, you get the sense that you've touched someone in a way that makes them uncomfortable, STOP. I'll ask my fiancee what she thinks about this when she wakes up, but to any other women reading this, please tell me if this agrees with your sensibilities.

I think this is one of the touchiest topics in dating. Pun intended, of course. Point being: you're an INTP. You're good at working within systems, so approach dating in a systematic way and it will make a lot more sense to you. The "best" pickup artists don't have game, they have methods. Usually very creepy methods, but they are also adaptable to fit those of us who are interested in avoiding being giant douchebags.

(As an aside, the technique known as "negging," in which you use subtle insults to tap into a woman's insecurity and make her more amenable to your advances, is never a good idea. Dumb women might have sex with you if you do it, but any intelligent, relationship-worthy woman can spot it a mile away and will immediately hate you if you try it.)

I'm certainly no expert on relationships, this is just what worked for me. Once all of the oddities of dating and how they related to each other started falling into place in my mind, things became much easier.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Some points made by my fiancee:

1. Never approach a woman from behind, it will make anyone uncomfortable and she will be more likely to assume you are a creep.

2. As a matter of personal safety, many women assume you are a creep until you prove otherwise. Make sure that she is comfortable with you before you make a move.

3. Hygiene is VERY IMPORTANT. Many guys, even smart ones, don't realize how bad they smell. Not to say slather yourself in Axe, but daily showers and brushing of teeth and hair are mandatory.

4. It's easier to avoid being placed in the "friend zone" by initiating mild physical contact towards the beginning and making your interest known. It's incredibly difficult to get out of the friend zone.

5. If a girl sees you negging, she's likely to spread the word. Then you'll have a reputation as a douche.

6. Try and balance yourself between being honest up-front and being too forward. Approaching girls and saying, "let's fuck," or even, "let's cuddle," is too much too fast. If she's interested, she really won't be that hard to read because she will be trying to send out signals. If she says in no uncertain terms that she's not interested, take her at her word and leave her alone. You don't want to come across as a stalker.

You would be surprised how few men talk to women about these things. One friend of mine is 6 foot 5 and was surprised to find out that he was intimidating to women when he wanted to approach them and express interest. He didn't realize this until my fiancee pointed it out to him, and he's been a lot more successful in relationships since then.

 

[Dimensional Transition]

That seems like a rather inappropriate, even bizarre reaction. Are you sure that's really what you feel, or have you degraded intimacy that much in favor of some kind of cold masculinity?

Not laughing at myself IRL, just, in my head. Feeling like 'What the fuck. This is so unusual, it's ridiculous'

I've been stuck in some sort of depersonalized state-of-mind (again), and it's getting kind of scary to me. I've started viewing everything I do in a really kind of... mocking way. I find the way I have become, the way I think, really stupid. There's a constant feeling of anxiety in me for something, but I don't know what exactly. It's a fear of going mad.

Yeah, that was pretty much my point.



So now everybody on INTPf knows how you feel about her. Does she know? Does she have the same feelings about you?



I think I know where you are coming from. I struggled for a long time to figure out when and how it was appropriate to touch someone else flirtatiously, and I seriously pissed a few girls off in the process. I thought I was flirting; they thought I was a creep. I wasn't trying to be creepy, I was just ignorant of the fact that they weren't responding in a way that invited more. It didn't really click for me until someone else pointed it out. I was also blind to the fact that when they did respond positively, such as by affectionately touching me back, it probably meant they were interested. I lost an opportunity for a relationship with someone I had strong feelings for because I didn't act on her physical indications of interest. This really comes down to reading people and interpreting body language.

I'm not sure I'm being very responsive to your point, but it's incredibly difficult to say how one should proceed from conversation to physical contact given all the human variables involved. If I had to formulate a general rule for initiating physical contact, I would say start with something small and socially appropriate to most settings (for example, a brief touch on the arm or shoulder as you say goodbye). If you get a positive response, then you can start thinking about going further. Nothing says, "I want to kiss you right now," like looking in a girl's eyes and pushing her hair back behind her ear, but beware! It can easily come off as creepy, so use with discretion. If, at any point, you get the sense that you've touched someone in a way that makes them uncomfortable, STOP. I'll ask my fiancee what she thinks about this when she wakes up, but to any other women reading this, please tell me if this agrees with your sensibilities

Yeah, everything you're saying is spot-on.

Well, I think she knows. But I really can't know for sure. I mean, she likes me enough to hug me when we've spent some time together/with friends. But she's cuddly with all of her friends too, and her best guy-friend (who is friendzoned). I'm trying my best to go with the sort of accidental touches and stuff, but, eh, yeah. I just don't know a way of how to explain this situation in a kind of understandable way to her. It feels like the time has to be just right.

It's really complicated stuff. Bluh. And now this uncomfortable introspective thought-pattern is back. It's weird.

 

[Ozymandias]

It's really complicated stuff. Bluh. And now this uncomfortable introspective thought-pattern is back. It's weird.

When I was around 20ish years old I had a pretty bad depression because of my lack of success when it came to girls. I can't remember exactly how, but I discovered the whole PickUpArtist scene by accident one day and became kinda obsessed with the whole thing. I spent every spare minute for the next few weeks scouring the net for more info on pick-up artists. For me, this was one of the most exhilarating subject I've ever dived into and I honestly look back on that time with fondness.

So I started studying my friends (they are all extroverts) whenever they interacted with women and I felt that what I had read about picking up women seemed to check out pretty well. My first attempts at using PUA techniques at parties are pretty funny to me in retrospect. Still suffering from lack of self-confidence, drinking a lot to make up for it, ugh, I don't recommend that combination. So what followed was a series of failed attempts on my part, but after a while I suddenly realized that even if I still hadn't learned how to flirt very effectively with girls my depression had completely disappeared.
After thinking about it for a while I realized that what depressed me was never that I wasn't able to attract the hotties at parties, it was that I didn't understand why they weren't interested in me.

Shortly after I put the whole pick-up thing behind me and I have never used any of it since. 6 years later now I'm still single and perfectly content. I'm still looking for a girl that can intrigue me, but I don't stress it anymore.

Now I realize that this may not be of any help to you at all as your feelings may be vastly different from what mine were at the time, but on the offchance that it may work I would recommend you to at least check up on some PUA stuff on the web. Just don't swallow it all whole. And treat people with respect.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

It's really complicated stuff. Bluh. And now this uncomfortable introspective thought-pattern is back. It's weird.

Seldom things are more complicated, it's true. Maybe you're uncomfortable with that thought pattern, but it's what makes you who you are and you have to embrace it. Use it to figure out what you're doing wrong (if anything).

Well, I think she knows. But I really can't know for sure. I mean, she likes me enough to hug me when we've spent some time together/with friends. But she's cuddly with all of her friends too, and her best guy-friend (who is friendzoned). I'm trying my best to go with the sort of accidental touches and stuff, but, eh, yeah. I just don't know a way of how to explain this situation in a kind of understandable way to her. It feels like the time has to be just right.

The time is never right, so now is better than later. You don't really have to explain it; we have words for these things so that we can just blurt out, "Will you go on a date with me?" instead of having to explicate. It says everything -- that you're romantically interested and you'd like to find out if she feels the same way. A few things to keep in mind:

1. There are advantages and disadvantages to asking her on a specific date. For example, let's assume you say, "I have two tickets to this concert on Friday, do you want to come with me?" It's great from her perspective because she doesn't have to hurt you. She can just give a reason she can't go.

It's bad from your perspective because you don't find out how she feels about you, and she might legitimately have plans. The other disadvantage is that it doesn't necessarily come off as being an "I'm into you" date, which you don't want to spring on anybody. Things get awkward when a night with a friend turns into an unexpected romantic evening.

2. If she says no, how you respond matters. A lot. Some guys get a little chilly after a woman rejects them, but what really costs them is if they get angry. Do your best to suppress your emotions, put on a good face, and say "no problem. Maybe another time." That way you leave her the option of changing her mind. Give her the opportunity to do so -- don't ask her out on a romantic date again.

I asked my ENFP buddy what advice he would give to a 15 year-old him on this topic. Here was his reply:

It's pretty amazing how much different we've become since our early college years, eh?

For starters, women need space. When I was 15 and I liked a girl, I followed her around like a lost puppy.

Second, know the difference between good touch and bad touch. I've always been a very physical person (perhaps a product of my outgoing nature) and when I was younger I made some girls uncomfortable by being too physical with them.

Third, control your emotions. This goes back to the "women need space" thing, too. I'm 25 and I still struggle with this. Women aren't interested in having you call them or text them all the time. Both genders enjoy the chase and if there's one sure way to lose a girl's interest, it's by laying it on too thick.

Along that same line, when a woman isn't reciprocating or responding to you, it's not the end of the world. She's just one girl and she's just a girl. Don't let her, or your feelings for her, run your life.

Those are probably the big ones.

Of course I've struggled with confidence when it comes to girl I like, but I'm still a generally confident person. Most girls won't make the first move, and so part of being confident means having the balls to be aggressive and take that first step (once it's being invited). I've fucked up opportunities for romantic encounters with women because I was being a little too respectful and I was afraid to pull the trigger.

 

[Dimensional Transition]

But I'm almost 17! O:

But yeah, I think I get most of it. The hardest part is just getting the confidence to get to the point of asking a girl out to a date. Actually, I've asked this girl out already. Last Saturday, I think.

We were supposed to go hang out at her place. I suggested we'd go there because she started talking about her home. I said I'd never been there and would like to visit some time. She was fine with it, thought it was a nice idea.

However, two days later I got a text saying she couldn't this week because she was unexpectedly going on a holiday. So yeah... Now I can't really do anything but wait, and it feels kind of shitty.

 

[thelithiumcat]

^lithium, what kind of guy are you most attracted to..?

I read this earlier and was considering it for a while. I decided that for me to be attracted to a guy it must be my choice. I must be able to hide it instead of being put under pressure. This pressure happens if it occurs to me that dating the guy is a possibility or that I may be a target for such a proposition, of which the latter is far worse. I therefore concluded that I must be friends with the guy first and get to know him. I realise that these may be difficult circumstances to meet and politely remind you that this is specific to myself. I think I may be trying to fit things into logical rules and perhaps losing the point. It may be a great deal simpler than I make it sound.

I put the next two paragraphs in the spoiler because I am far too verbose and this takes up page space.

Spoiler

As it is, the one guy I'm properly friends with is a fellow INTP. We go for months without talking, but when we do happen to start messaging or talking there tends to be a lot at once. The most recent time was on the subject of minecraft.

Given this thought, to be attracted to a guy and actually converse with him without feeling in any way threatened requires me to get to know him as a friend so that I may consider him, particularly his personality, at length. I may or may not be aware of this in the way I'm currently talking about it, if that makes sense. It won't have been a planned thing because I am not that socially aware or socially scheming.

I just keep going down a pathetic hole of self-pity until I have a nice chat with the girl again.

I used to do that quite a bit. The longer I didn't see them, the more my imagination would take effect and the more different what I thought became to what may actually have been the case. This hasn't happened so much recently but it used to a lot - particularly when I was in a relationship.

I think women want some sort of warm, beary, dominant guy. Instead I radiate detachment, observation and latent madness.

First of all, thanks for the reply.

Secondly, funnily enough I have these problems with fellow women. There are quite a few dominant personalities at my school who tend to be at the forefront of debate and my mother wants me to be nicer. I also, in your accurate words, "radiate detachment, observation and latent madness." I see your problem though. I think we INTPs rather do not fit society's preferred stereotypes, whichever gender may be in question.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Spoiler

But I'm almost 17! O:

But yeah, I think I get most of it. The hardest part is just getting the confidence to get to the point of asking a girl out to a date. Actually, I've asked this girl out already. Last Saturday, I think.

We were supposed to go hang out at her place. I suggested we'd go there because she started talking about her home. I said I'd never been there and would like to visit some time. She was fine with it, thought it was a nice idea.

However, two days later I got a text saying she couldn't this week because she was unexpectedly going on a holiday. So yeah... Now I can't really do anything but wait, and it feels kind of shitty.

I'm glad to hear it. I hope it goes well.

I know I've been responding with walls of text and unsolicited advice, and I'm sorry. I just really identify with you and the OP when it comes to dealing with relationships at that age. I wish somebody had told me all this stuff back then.

Anyway, best of luck you all you young folks.

 

[sammael]

I decided that for me to be attracted to a guy it must be my choice. I must be able to hide it instead of being put under pressure. This pressure happens if it occurs to me that dating the guy is a possibility or that I may be a target for such a proposition, of which the latter is far worse. I therefore concluded that I must be friends with the guy first and get to know him. I realise that these may be difficult circumstances to meet and politely remind you that this is specific to myself. I think I may be trying to fit things into logical rules and perhaps losing the point. It may be a great deal simpler than I make it sound.

Given this thought, to be attracted to a guy and actually converse with him without feeling in any way threatened requires me to get to know him as a friend so that I may consider him, particularly his personality, at length. I may or may not be aware of this in the way I'm currently talking about it, if that makes sense. It won't have been a planned thing because I am not that socially aware or socially scheming.

This is interesting. I also must be friends with a girl first and get to know her, and her personality (general, not Type) before I can/would consider anything more than friends. I have never understood how people jump into the whole emotions and dependence etc. so fast without even knowing a person. For me personally relationships are serious, and I see no point in being in a relationship if there is no lasting intention. Many relationships I see around me have no depth, there's no connection, its almost convenience. Granted, what else can be expected from young people, but it is still strange to me.

We appear to have somewhat different reasons, but we share the same view. Heh, it fascinates me how two minds, given entirely differing experiences and environments, can reach a similar conclusion. 10 points for MBTI.

 

[thelithiumcat]

This is interesting. I also must be friends with a girl first and get to know her, and her personality (general, not Type) before I can/would consider anything more than friends. I have never understood how people jump into the whole emotions and dependence etc. so fast without even knowing a person. For me personally relationships are serious, and I see no point in being in a relationship if there is no lasting intention. Many relationships I see around me have no depth, there's no connection, its almost convenience. Granted, what else can be expected from young people, but it is still strange to me.

We appear to have somewhat different reasons, but we share the same view. Heh, it fascinates me how two minds, given entirely differing experiences and environments, can reach a similar conclusion. 10 points for MBTI.

I agree, it's very interesting and intriguing. It's cool to read personality types for people but I find it brilliant when I actually read someone's direct post or response which clearly shows their similarity with myself.

I don't understand how people do that so quickly either. It's strange to me too. Whenever I check Facebook (after which I quickly leave because I'm not interested in anything except direct messages there) I see people who are just going in and out of relationships and they seem to treat it as something that they can just change whenever they want. The relationships seem to have no real meaning to them and that's pretty incomprehensible to me. Surely people have to have feelings for each other to get involved and how can that change so quickly? It's like when girls just change their best friends. It's as if people are cheap to them and little but an amusement. It seems almost cruel to me that people can just be dropped like that.

Another thing that has occurred to me today, and which I think is worth mentioning, is that a lot of the time I would be very aware that I could be being manipulated and played (this is part of the awareness of being a dating target). This made it very difficult to accept some things as genuine and get to know someone normally, which I did want to do. Hence, it is better to remove that obstacle until it is much less necessary. The thing is, being not very strong or tall (a mere 5ft 2") I tend to be very aware of situations in which I need to trust the guy(s) I'm with not to take advantage of me. I know it might seem strange to think that of anyone, and I would love to just be able to be around people, but one has to take it into account - usually when one may be a 'target', to continue my earlier term. I tend to be a particularly unobservant and unaware INTP which makes me focus on this all the more when I remember. I would love to be tall and strong because then I could be much more independent - something which suits my mind and personality - and I wouldn't have to think about this so much but I know that I can't choose that and I find that very incapacitating.

 

[yogurtexpress]

I don't understand how people do that so quickly either. It's strange to me too. Whenever I check Facebook (after which I quickly leave because I'm not interested in anything except direct messages there) I see people who are just going in and out of relationships and they seem to treat it as something that they can just change whenever they want. The relationships seem to have no real meaning to them and that's pretty incomprehensible to me. Surely people have to have feelings for each other to get involved and how can that change so quickly? It's like when girls just change their best friends. It's as if people are cheap to them and little but an amusement. It seems almost cruel to me that people can just be dropped like that.

Extroverts' brains work differently. They're not exactly cruel, they're just unable to put a lot of thought and care into individual relationships the way introverts do. They see people more as people to just have fun with rather than people that they can share their inner worlds...because they don't really have our inner worlds. When they mature, they usually see what's important in life, and don't spend as much time jumping from one trivial relationship to another (see: old people). But when they're young, people are more like commodities, aside from the 'best friends' that they may have (but as you pointed out, even those fluctuate).

Since this thread is about dating, it's worth pointing out that not taking people so seriously probably works better for that. It would probably be better, for both introverts and extroverts, to date a wide variety of people, so that they see who's the best mate for them. I know that's hard for most introverts to comprehend (I'm still trying to figure this out myself), but the person you marry probably isn't just going to fall out of the sky, unless you're really lucky. You're probably gonna have to interact with many members of the opposite sex, at an intimate level no less, in order to find out who you need.

 

[Zionoxis]

I am more or less taking the 'friend first' relationship second approach. I am about as successful with girls as most elderly are with computers. Either way, I can be friendly with women. The type I usually go for is more extroverted to help balance me out a bit, and obviously intelligent. Try not to worry about romantics...you will hyper-analyze it and screw it up.

 

[sammael]

Another thing that has occurred to me today, and which I think is worth mentioning, is that a lot of the time I would be very aware that I could be being manipulated and played (this is part of the awareness of being a dating target). This made it very difficult to accept some things as genuine and get to know someone normally, which I did want to do. Hence, it is better to remove that obstacle until it is much less necessary. The thing is, being not very strong or tall (a mere 5ft 2") I tend to be very aware of situations in which I need to trust the guy(s) I'm with not to take advantage of me. I know it might seem strange to think that of anyone, and I would love to just be able to be around people, but one has to take it into account - usually when one may be a 'target', to continue my earlier term. I tend to be a particularly unobservant and unaware INTP which makes me focus on this all the more when I remember. I would love to be tall and strong because then I could be much more independent - something which suits my mind and personality - and I wouldn't have to think about this so much but I know that I can't choose that and I find that very incapacitating.

You raise an interesting point, the differences in gender. I can definitely understand where you're coming from, you face different issues than I as a guy do. You do have an advantage over many girls, being aware of the possibilities as you have mentioned. Many people are far too naive.

I am curious when you mentioned being manipulated or played, did you mean this in any emotional context? Is that something of which the possibility concerns you? I understand how that could play a big part in holding one back from going too fast, however do you think you would become emotionally attached or involved quickly in a situation like that?

Extroverts' brains work differently. They're not exactly cruel, they're just unable to put a lot of thought and care into individual relationships the way introverts do. They see people more as people to just have fun with rather than people that they can share their inner worlds...because they don't really have our inner worlds. When they mature, they usually see what's important in life, and don't spend as much time jumping from one trivial relationship to another (see: old people). But when they're young, people are more like commodities, aside from the 'best friends' that they may have (but as you pointed out, even those fluctuate).

Bud, your concept of introversion/extraversion is incorrect by MBTI standards. You would know that, to sum it up: introverts prefer to focus on and are more energised by the internal world, extraverts prefer to focus on and are more energised by the external world. The E/I dictates what the orientation (attitude) of the dominant function is, but remember the auxiliary function is the opposite. Thus how one deals with the internal world, and how one deals with the external world. Extraverts do have inner worlds, just as introverts have external worlds. Extraverts can be comfortable in the internal world, introverts can be comfortable in the external world.

Extraverts are as perfectly capable at any age of putting thought and care into an individual relationship as introverts are. And likewise, they are not more likely to treat people as commodities than introverts. Just think of the basic (MBTI) definition of extraversion/introversion, the focus and energy generation, and how each particular preference would affect/influence a person.

 

[digital angel]

There are a lot of good points in this thread. I don't want to be in a relationship and don't expect to be in one. I find intellectualism in my profession and my friends...who also happen to be professionals.

Give yourself time. As you grow, you will learn more about yourself and people generally. If you really want a relationship, you can have one. You should keep in mind what's important to you; once you know what's important to you, don't compromise on those things. Your happiness is important. Listen to your inner thoughts and feelings when you're in a relationship, and depending on what happens and how you think and feel, be prepared to walk away.

 

[digital angel]

@lithiumcat-yes, you can be played. It probably happens more than you might think(which is unfortunate). We hear stories about people who lie about their backgrounds (like not having a criminal history and or being educated when in fact, they do have a criminal history and are not educated). Consider why, they might do that.

 

[thelithiumcat]

You raise an interesting point, the differences in gender. I can definitely understand where you're coming from, you face different issues than I as a guy do. You do have an advantage over many girls, being aware of the possibilities as you have mentioned. Many people are far too naive.

I am curious when you mentioned being manipulated or played, did you mean this in any emotional context? Is that something of which the possibility concerns you? I understand how that could play a big part in holding one back from going too fast, however do you think you would become emotionally attached or involved quickly in a situation like that?

Thanks very much. Yes, I'm rather glad that I'm aware of the possibilities. If I wasn't, when this was compounded with my lack of environmental and social awareness, I'd (with my current mindset, at least) rather worry for myself. My mind is what I fall back on - particularly when experience becomes insufficient. I agree, people can be too naive.


Having gone through the entire section you are about to read, I have decided that emotions are rather connected to it and lead to certain reactions which will be further expanded upon later, and that if anything did happen quickly I would, as I just said, retreat into analysis. In the interests of depicting thought progression, I'll leave the following section as it currently stands, save for minor edits. I've also put it in a spoiler because it's ended up being a good four paragraphs. There might be a few slight thought tangents in there but there's a pretty clear progression as far as I can see so it shouldn't be too hard to follow.

Spoiler

I'm not entirely sure that I understand you correctly, however if you mean that I was not aware of being played, there is a slight chance - a very slight chance - that I would become attached and once I became aware this would be suppressed as an emotional reaction based upon things which have not yet been analysed to be valid. That's only allowing for possibility. Once someone is put in the position of being a possible relationship everything about and between myself and them will be hyper-analysed (to put it into context, I hyper-analyse the relationship between myself and my best friend and this is on a higher level than that). As soon as I had any emotions in this context more than possibly any other I would suppress them and analyse them. There's a fair amount of fear of the unknown involved (my social skills are not at all good) which only makes me fall back onto (potentially, though not at all necessarily, frantic, depending on the timing) logical analysis in order to gain answers. It's not brilliant that I am aware I don't know much about this field of knowledge so I can't trust my conclusions. If there is a possibility that my observations are the victims of false representation from the other person that just makes it a lot worse for me because how can I possibly come to any conclusion at all (not that we INTPs ever really do find finite ones) if my evidence could be wrong? I am not comfortable with the idea of relationships so if I finally make a decision on the matter and proceed, only to find that the person has in fact been lying to me in order to gain my trust, how am I supposed to react? Most of the trust placed in that person will vaporise, save that which remains because I may be overreacting or wrong. It might return, given later consideration, but I wouldn't count on that simply because it is not a certainty.

That is one reaction. On the other hand, if I were in a slightly different mood I might simply (I won't lie to you in the interests of providing better evidence) look down on the person and cease interaction with them. I might be fine with it and then berate myself for it later because unfounded positive reactions aren't really how I do things, or I may never realise. I may be slightly angry at them because I highly resent being manipulated, and take it partly as a slight on my mind or intelligence; although I am aware of other possible reasons and why these criteria are unlikely to be met (which I don't blame people for while they don't know me), I would rather I was provided with correct information from the start. As a point of reference, I don't get angry with close friends very often and I hardly ever show it. The closer one reaches this point (as a 'friend', not 'family' which is a category subject to its own rules and reactions) the less likely I am to show them my negative reactions to or thoughts about them. Hence with my last relationship I became exponentially stressed because I would confine more and more of it to my mind. It was not a good state and eventually I really needed to get out.

I realise that a lot of what I talk about may be unusual and seem an overreaction, but, to reiterate, I'm trying to be a good point of reference and I hyper-analyse things like this. I wouldn't use me as a representation of more than a few people. I also don't think that this is necessarily the correct way to do things; it's simply my current method, whether through choice or an instinctive reaction.

I also feel like I'm being a little intimidating. I apologise for that. To clarify, I tend to use this tone with regards to things I have analysed and I know few things better than myself and how I react to and deal with things. I'm not like this in the real world except on rare occasions (for example, if I am prepared or told in advance and have time to let my imagination change what may be a simple idea to start with into something threatening) and usually I'm quiet, withdrawn and talk about things which, especially around strangers, are (for reasons I have not yet concluded) intended to make myself sound slightly odd, but in a good way, and separate myself from the typical stereotype. If I'm in a good mood, I may act slightly out of my comfort zone and be unaware of my full state of mind until a while afterwards. I really don't like being that way because of the lack of control and often describe it as a state of third person observation of myself while being fairly detached and having a less present mind.

@lithiumcat-yes, you can be played. It probably happens more than you might think(which is unfortunate). We hear stories about people who lie about their backgrounds (like not having a criminal history and or being educated when in fact, they do have a criminal history and are not educated). Consider why, they might do that.

Indeed, it is unfortunate; both for those who are on the receiving end and those whose reputation is affected as a result through no direct fault of their own.

I do consider, I just decide that there's no way I can possibly know for sure whether they're lying or not and, since this is a cautionary measure anyway, I continue with my previous decision until reconsideration is in order. I never really treat it as an absolute though so it's likely they'll never know that these thoughts existed. I might act as though I never had the thoughts to see how the situation would pan out otherwise. The thoughts are likely to remain confined to my mind.

 

[Astealthydonut]

You should just be happy you can get into a relationship.

*sniffle*

 

[digital angel]

You should just be happy you can get into a relationship.

*sniffle*

astealthydonut: Are you truly feeling that way? Sometimes it's difficult to accurately determine this with threads, emails and so on. If so, I believe that alot of people wouldn't knowingly play you. For example, I'm confident my friends wouldn't knowingly approve of/give their blessing to a relationship with any one who's playing me. The people I know wouldn't play someone that they're interested in, either. What's unfortunate is that the reverse is out there....I think you know and understand.

This is why it's important to keep in mind what's important to you and not compromise on those things. I truly believe that someone who genuinely loves you wouldn't compromise you or your goals for theirs.

 

[A22]

It never fails to impress me how similar the thoughts and views of the members here are to mines.

 

[digital angel]

^ It's refreshing, isn't it?

 

[thelithiumcat]

^ It's refreshing, isn't it?

Very much so. As is the conversation here which is so much more enjoyable than most other situations. After a day filled with extroverts it's nice to come back here.

 

[sammael]

Thanks very much. Yes, I'm rather glad that I'm aware of the possibilities. If I wasn't, when this was compounded with my lack of environmental and social awareness, I'd (with my current mindset, at least) rather worry for myself. My mind is what I fall back on - particularly when experience becomes insufficient. I agree, people can be too naive.


Having gone through the entire section you are about to read, I have decided that emotions are rather connected to it and lead to certain reactions which will be further expanded upon later, and that if anything did happen quickly I would, as I just said, retreat into analysis. In the interests of depicting thought progression, I'll leave the following section as it currently stands, save for minor edits. I've also put it in a spoiler because it's ended up being a good four paragraphs. There might be a few slight thought tangents in there but there's a pretty clear progression as far as I can see so it shouldn't be too hard to follow.

I read the whole thing with a smile. The way you are thinking, the way you are analysing, the way you are connecting, is very familiar to me. The framework with which we function is the same, I am still amazed at that. I understand all of what you said, and I relate to most of it. And hey, there was nothing wrong with your tone, I never picked up on anything negative, it was fine.

I am endlessly curious about the reasons people do the things they do, why, how. And everyone is a little different. Take us, two INTPs. While we may think and function in a similar way, there will always be differences, often significant, because of different environments and experiences in life. I was thinking about how the situations we were discussing would affect me, how I would react. And I was curious as to your perspective.

Obviously gender makes a large difference, whether for physical reasons or other such as roles/what is expected. I was just... thinking how I don't get emotionally involved (easily, at least), and I wouldn't unless I knew someone really well. I know some people find it hard to understand emotional involvement can be a choice, but that's how it is with my logical mind, and ability to rationalise everything. Thus I am not particularly concerned about the possibility of my emotions being manipulated, it is very unlikely. My INTP scepticism and ability to analyse probably even makes it more so, as you have mentioned.

Anyway, these thoughts led me to question why I am so aware and cautious. I have no doubt a lot of it has to do with the way I, as an INTP, function, and what you have said reinforces this. However, when I was 19 I somewhat unwisely fell in love, and it didn't end so well. I know this experience has had a big impact on the way that I am today, it was a lesson learnt the hard way. Sometimes I wonder how much it has shaped my attitude on this subject.

I apologise for not commenting much on what you said. It was an interesting read, I appreciate the thought and effort that went into it. Anyway, to continue with the curiosity, is a relationship something you desire? Do you care? And what would be the advantages or good points about being in a relationship for you?

 

[A22]

I loved the uncalled advises in this thread. If someday I ever want to get into a relationship I'll put them into practice.

Very much so. As is the conversation here which is so much more enjoyable than most other situations. After a day filled with extroverts it's nice to come back here.

Yup.

 

[thelithiumcat]

Spoiler

I read the whole thing with a smile. The way you are thinking, the way you are analysing, the way you are connecting, is very familiar to me. The framework with which we function is the same, I am still amazed at that. I understand all of what you said, and I relate to most of it. And hey, there was nothing wrong with your tone, I never picked up on anything negative, it was fine.

I am endlessly curious about the reasons people do the things they do, why, how. And everyone is a little different. Take us, two INTPs. While we may think and function in a similar way, there will always be differences, often significant, because of different environments and experiences in life. I was thinking about how the situations we were discussing would affect me, how I would react. And I was curious as to your perspective.

Obviously gender makes a large difference, whether for physical reasons or other such as roles/what is expected. I was just... thinking how I don't get emotionally involved (easily, at least), and I wouldn't unless I knew someone really well. I know some people find it hard to understand emotional involvement can be a choice, but that's how it is with my logical mind, and ability to rationalise everything. Thus I am not particularly concerned about the possibility of my emotions being manipulated, it is very unlikely. My INTP scepticism and ability to analyse probably even makes it more so, as you have mentioned.

Anyway, these thoughts led me to question why I am so aware and cautious. I have no doubt a lot of it has to do with the way I, as an INTP, function, and what you have said reinforces this. However, when I was 19 I somewhat unwisely fell in love, and it didn't end so well. I know this experience has had a big impact on the way that I am today, it was a lesson learnt the hard way. Sometimes I wonder how much it has shaped my attitude on this subject.

I apologise for not commenting much on what you said. It was an interesting read, I appreciate the thought and effort that went into it. Anyway, to continue with the curiosity, is a relationship something you desire? Do you care? And what would be the advantages or good points about being in a relationship for you?

I should probably say now, before I forget, that the reply I give you is only what comes straight to mind. It's very "thought of the moment", as I like to put it. What I tell you may not be the only response possible, or the best. I think it's interesting to note that my earlier responses are probably a fairly good example of how I get very defensive to start with. Now I'm past that point I'm thinking about it with a more open mind.

Thanks. I feel the same reading yours. I don't mind that you haven't commented on some of it - in fact I'm rather happy that you commented at all. Anyway, I think that perhaps if we both commented fully on each others' responses we might end up with ever-increasing post sizes. The detail you put in means a lot. I also found yours very interesting and agree with you. I can relate to... well pretty much all of it. I enjoyed your first paragraph so much that it took me a while to get to the rest. I'm also curious as to your perspective; in fact often I get people to explain things I know from their own perspective to find out how they see it. I also pretend I haven't heard things to see how the situation would have panned out. Interesting stuff.

I'm not sure a relationship is something I "desire". My last one was full of all the reasons why I wouldn't want one. He was very into a lot of the cultural conventions and rules which really bother me and I find awkward, demeaning and rather inapplicable to myself. I really, really dislike them. They all put me in the place of the person who should sit there, look pretty and make conversation while the guy does all the fun things and wears more practical clothing (I am incredibly jealous of men's clothes). That's pretty much the opposite of what I would want to do. No matter how much I would tell my ex that I didn't want to go to dances or presents like gloves or clutch bags (my worst enemy in the fashion world because as far as I'm concerned bags are to free one's hands) he would still insist. I hated it. He did occasionally get me presents which I was more interested in (an Aerosmith cd, for example) but I found it all rather over-the-top and didn't really want to be given presents at all. I found it all rather awkward. Part of it was that I knew he put in effort when I didn't want anything to do with it. Considering this, it's no wonder it became one of my biggest insecurities. It's mostly what I remember when I think about that time.

Yes, I think my own relationship may have also had a sizeable impact on how I view these things. I remember before I had one I was slightly curious about it. I only really wanted one to gather information on the experience; to have done it. I like to get rites of passage over and done with. Other than that, I don't think I really wanted a relationship for what comes with it. I probably still feel that way, but I'm more knowledgeable about how they are. It isn't really something I desire. When I was in one, all I really wanted was to go slightly further than I would with a normal friend. I was very wary other than that and not interested in anything else. I fell into it to start with, actually. I never intended it. It just happened and, being rather naive at that point, I went along with it. I don't think I had much of a problem with it to start with. It built up over time as I realised that I didn't really want to be there. I might just want the conversation. Perhaps if I had a better experience with someone more suited to me I might change how I feel about these things, but at the moment I override any thoughts I have about wanting one, partly because I think it would be a waste of time for the other person and partly because of my own insecurities.

Considering that, I think that with the right person I might enjoy a relationship, but I would need to let my guard down. I'm trying to think of pros which are specifically for relationships rather than friendships. It's difficult, to be honest. All I can think of is that there's a lower limit with regards to physical contact. But my limit (in relationship terms) is really pretty high so I'm not sure that counts. In friendship terms, though, it's pretty low. Anyway, anything else I can think of either goes in the 'disliked' category or the 'friend' category.

The more I think about this, the more I think that the best route for me is the friendship route (I have somewhat of an issue with the idea of people being 'friend zoned' because for me that's the only real way). I think that to start from the beginning as a relationship would mean the person would never make it to the 'friend' category, and that isn't a good thing. They would be constantly treated with suspicion and as an uncategorised 'other'. I would associate them with all the things I've mentioned above. However, going down the friendship route bypasses that. I would probably feel a real connection through interests and that I was understood and valued as a person. I wouldn't consider hidden agendas (at least, as much). I would feel that I had more in common with them. If I can maintain a friendship with someone we must work pretty well. I am very open and close with my true friends. I think, to continue the earlier idea, being 'relationship zoned' is never going to work.

I apologise for taking a while to reply to this. I think I've had this open for two days but I haven't really been replying to anything in that period of time.

 

[kayne]

i think TC's biggest problem is being a teen. inteligent relationships rarely exist in high school or really until you are at least 20 dont count on it. Teen relationships exist for sex if you dont care about no sex before marriage. if you do they exist soley to have some dating experience for one you get older

You would be surprised how few men talk to women about these things. One friend of mine is 6 foot 5 and was surprised to find out that he was intimidating to women when he wanted to approach them and express interest. He didn't realize this until my fiancee pointed it out to him, and he's been a lot more successful in relationships since then.

to add to this something like 88% of women in college will either be raped or experience some kind of sexual harassment. the thought of oh gosh some guy is approaching me i might just get ruined for life is a very real thought and something to consider. and in this guys case being 6'5 likely doesnt help. i think this also largely explains why girls group up and you rarely find one alone they almost always have at least a buddy with them but usually it is 3 or 4 of them in a group and to talk to one you must impress the entire group.

the exceptions being a large gathering or where there are other people they feel safe around you might see them alone. otherwise its attack the herd or nothing at all. i think on some level this explains the girls always pee in pairs theory since the bathroom is an ideal hiding spot for a rapist as well as just walking off alone somewhere and dont forget to factor in females are usually weaker in pretty much every species on the planet.

I am well aware I have quite some time left for marriage, yes. But I would like to get some relationship-experience before that as well, so I don't end up panicking when I'm 30 and don't know what to do. And the age of 16-20 seems ideal for that. Plus, I have really quite liked this girl for about a year. I'm slow, but determined, I guess.

basically this. figure it out now or youll be 27 confused and mostly clueless. though i have had relationships the vast majority were online and the last one was 8-10 years ago. admittely in what appears to be INTP fashion around here i took forever to get over that relationship that lasted like 8 months and it ironically is why i got addicted to porn and ironically didnt seek a new relationship until the past year or so is when ive actually been trying but this time no porn addiction so i feel i can handle it.

The time is never right, so now is better than later

sound advice. ive come to this way of thinking. i just need to learn to act on things faster.

2. If she says no, how you respond matters. A lot. Some guys get a little chilly after a woman rejects them, but what really costs them is if they get angry. Do your best to suppress your emotions, put on a good face, and say "no problem. Maybe another time." That way you leave her the option of changing her mind. Give her the opportunity to do so -- don't ask her out on a romantic date again.

ive found girls get chilly too. it goes both ways really. a guy sees it rightfully so as well screw you then. the girl realizes well i wont get this guy to talk to me ever again. barring the really persistent male or the apologizing female the relationship between the two just took a huge dent if they were friends if they werent even friends then it died.i blame both parties.

This is interesting. I also must be friends with a girl first and get to know her, and her personality (general, not Type) before I can/would consider anything more than friends. I have never understood how people jump into the whole emotions and dependence etc. so fast without even knowing a person. For me personally relationships are serious, and I see no point in being in a relationship if there is no lasting intention. Many relationships I see around me have no depth, there's no connection, its almost convenience. Granted, what else can be expected from young people, but it is still strange to me.

this i can never understand how people in 5 hours go into a relationship. then again i am not very out going so that is probably why but still it seems shallow and empty i see people bounce around from person to person in some never ending quest that yes i am partaking in but i dont bone every chick i see. it is strange indeed. which leads to this point

I don't understand how people do that so quickly either. It's strange to me too. Whenever I check Facebook (after which I quickly leave because I'm not interested in anything except direct messages there) I see people who are just going in and out of relationships and they seem to treat it as something that they can just change whenever they want. The relationships seem to have no real meaning to them and that's pretty incomprehensible to me. Surely people have to have feelings for each other to get involved and how can that change so quickly? It's like when girls just change their best friends. It's as if people are cheap to them and little but an amusement. It seems almost cruel to me that people can just be dropped like that.

this Xinfinity seriously. i dont get how people are THIS shallow. they create never ending drama(seriously if you are a drama queen just leave me alone) people piss and moan about every little thing and then seem to be willing to share every detail of their lives with no thought or consquence. in some other friend on another forum some person replied saying yea "i just reply and say so is 4:00 a good time to rape you then?" i mean seriously this is what these people are basically saying....oh you got up 2 minutes ago alrigh ill be right on over with the duct tape and we can have a grand old time.

and there is of course that people are friend and unfriended like it is nothing. people have no care for anyone. and oh no you said something offensive we are no longer BFF's. you i met you 10 minutes hello new BFF. and add to it this is the internet land of the trolls and it is far worse than anything any terrorist could do to us. facebook and twitter have corrupted the soul of modern society even my computer illiterate mother can check facebook daily with ease. its sickening and this a woman that took 2 years to master the power button.

I still feel kind of down because I can't talk to this girl right now. Fuck. 'Love' (yeah yeah, infatuation then, whatever you want to call it.) really is depressing to me. And the over-thinking doesn't help either. I always end up in some sort of worry-cycle, until I talk to the girl again. Then I become happy. I wish I knew how other people manage to magically end up cuddling and kissing while talking too. That'd be awesome.

if you ever find out the secret do tell. i'd love to know. i've come to grips i think that i probably wont ever fully get it. i never really have.

other members of the dating pool suddenly want you more, but this cliché is based in reality at least to some degree. When there is no romantic pressure, it's a lot easier to feel comfortable or even confident, which in turn makes one seem more attractive.

this ive noticed too. it is quite odd. i suspect the reason is girls then see oh you are good other for another girl so you must be good marriage material which goes back to our basic biological urge to mate for life. on an interesting note i have noticed since in my girl help thread since ive started well whatever me and her have started this weird we like each other we think but havent said but not 100% just regular old friends. that said since that start girls seem to be friendly around me even though we have started anything. and her roommates who havent really seen me hardly seem to even more so friendly around me. its as if you merely must break the line of schrimmage to get contact then suddenly everyone wants to play with you. though it raises a more interesting point. girls talk their emotions out far more and talk things out far more so is their some secret meeting going on correlating all of this? her roommates i can blame as somebody talking about me perhaps but the other random extra niceness i cant blame on that. it is interesting to be sure. if you are in a relationship the more likely you are to be able to get into another faster or cheat on your current one.

this makes it very unfair if you think about it. if you are always getting the girl then the cycle continues but if you arent then you are usually still always on the outside looking in even if the one that always gets the girl is a complete scumbag and the reason he has so many girlfriends is because he is too worthless to be able to maintain a long lasting relationship but for whatever reason girls dont see that. some do yes but in general as a whole no they dont if they did the cycle wouldnt exist

 

[sammael]

Anyway, I think that perhaps if we both commented fully on each others' responses we might end up with ever-increasing post sizes.

Heh, I thought the same thing.

Spoiler

I'm not sure a relationship is something I "desire". My last one was full of all the reasons why I wouldn't want one. He was very into a lot of the cultural conventions and rules which really bother me and I find awkward, demeaning and rather inapplicable to myself. I really, really dislike them. They all put me in the place of the person who should sit there, look pretty and make conversation while the guy does all the fun things and wears more practical clothing (I am incredibly jealous of men's clothes). That's pretty much the opposite of what I would want to do. No matter how much I would tell my ex that I didn't want to go to dances or presents like gloves or clutch bags (my worst enemy in the fashion world because as far as I'm concerned bags are to free one's hands) he would still insist. I hated it. He did occasionally get me presents which I was more interested in (an Aerosmith cd, for example) but I found it all rather over-the-top and didn't really want to be given presents at all. I found it all rather awkward. Part of it was that I knew he put in effort when I didn't want anything to do with it. Considering this, it's no wonder it became one of my biggest insecurities. It's mostly what I remember when I think about that time.

Hmm, I understand your frustration. There are too many people that subscribe largely to very traditional views without considering different circumstances and different individuals. And there are too many people that don't try to understand other people, they just treat them according to their own perceptions. I get quite irritated with this too, I would need someone who understands my differences and is aware of how I want to be treated, not how they think I want to be treated. I think for us especially this is important, otherwise we can't attach any meaning to the relationship.

Spoiler

Yes, I think my own relationship may have also had a sizeable impact on how I view these things. I remember before I had one I was slightly curious about it. I only really wanted one to gather information on the experience; to have done it. I like to get rites of passage over and done with. Other than that, I don't think I really wanted a relationship for what comes with it. I probably still feel that way, but I'm more knowledgeable about how they are. It isn't really something I desire. When I was in one, all I really wanted was to go slightly further than I would with a normal friend. I was very wary other than that and not interested in anything else. I fell into it to start with, actually. I never intended it. It just happened and, being rather naive at that point, I went along with it. I don't think I had much of a problem with it to start with. It built up over time as I realised that I didn't really want to be there. I might just want the conversation. Perhaps if I had a better experience with someone more suited to me I might change how I feel about these things, but at the moment I override any thoughts I have about wanting one, partly because I think it would be a waste of time for the other person and partly because of my own insecurities.

I fell into my first relationship too, the first one that involved any feeling anyway. I have never really initiated anything (relationship wise) because I never have been particularly inclined towards or interested in being in a relationship while I'm young. I have this time here, now, to focus on myself, and that is what I value. It is perhaps a selfish attitude, but I can afford that for now. I understand many people need that special someone to care for and to care for them, I am inclined to think however that we are among the least of any type to feel strongly for that.

I do agree that a relationship is an enlightening and worthwhile experience. It killed all that teenage naivety and opened up my eyes, which I consider to be a good thing. I think I see things far less through the old rose tinted glasses now.

Spoiler

Considering that, I think that with the right person I might enjoy a relationship, but I would need to let my guard down. I'm trying to think of pros which are specifically for relationships rather than friendships. It's difficult, to be honest. All I can think of is that there's a lower limit with regards to physical contact. But my limit (in relationship terms) is really pretty high so I'm not sure that counts. In friendship terms, though, it's pretty low. Anyway, anything else I can think of either goes in the 'disliked' category or the 'friend' category.

Yeah, you need that connection first right. I have come to the conclusion I need to feel a connection first before I could think of... opening up, exposing myself. I would need to know someone well to commit.

I have never been close to any NT girls, I am somewhat curious as to how that would go. It would be interesting to somehow briefly experience each type, to observe how the interaction went.

I have the same perspective of the advantages/pros of relationships. I can fulfil most of my wants/needs without having a significant other. It is an interesting question to ask different people, there are many wildly differing perspectives on pros/cons.

Spoiler

The more I think about this, the more I think that the best route for me is the friendship route (I have somewhat of an issue with the idea of people being 'friend zoned' because for me that's the only real way). I think that to start from the beginning as a relationship would mean the person would never make it to the 'friend' category, and that isn't a good thing. They would be constantly treated with suspicion and as an uncategorised 'other'. I would associate them with all the things I've mentioned above. However, going down the friendship route bypasses that. I would probably feel a real connection through interests and that I was understood and valued as a person. I wouldn't consider hidden agendas (at least, as much). I would feel that I had more in common with them. If I can maintain a friendship with someone we must work pretty well. I am very open and close with my true friends. I think, to continue the earlier idea, being 'relationship zoned' is never going to work.

Agreed. Personally I think the key to a good relationship is being best friends, which goes far beyond physical attraction, sexual aspects, roles etc., as you alluded to. Having that foundation there makes all the difference, you're comfortable with this person, you connect with them, and it makes it so much easier to communicate. I don't really understand why many people don't get this, after all, a relationship is (should be) only little more than a great friendship.

I apologise for taking a while to reply to this. I think I've had this open for two days but I haven't really been replying to anything in that period of time.

Meh, it's the way we are. We need time to think, to process. I'm the worst at this, sometimes I feel a bit bad too.

 

[kayne]

Meh, it's the way we are. We need time to think, to process. I'm the worst at this, sometimes I feel a bit bad too.

you really think we here at the INTP forum will let you claim this title? brb need to think on that....

 

[sammael]

you really think we here at the INTP forum will let you claim this title? brb need to think on that....

Heh, on second thoughts yes, perhaps it was somewhat of a brash statement. A wolf among wolves right.