INTP Empaths

[Eclipse]

This is something that I've been thinking on a lot for the past few months. Around the same time, I found I was an INTP, and an Empath. For those of you who don't recognize the term "Empath", it refers to any person who can percieve and understand the emotions and viewpoint of others. It could broadly be considered "physchic", but before I am buried with skepticism, I don't mean Empathy is anything supernatural. Nobody really knows how it works...there are theories, but no conclusions. If anybody wants further detail about Empathy, let me know.

Anyway. I visisted a forum dedicated to Empathy a while back, similar to how this forum is dedicated to INTP's. In a thread there concerning this particular subject, I found that most Empaths were INFJ and INFP. However, I find that everything about me fits the INTP description...as well as the description of an Empath.

The one thing I mainly notice that is different is: I understand emotions, but I don't EMPATHIZE. Sometimes I feel very strongly for the person who is sad, or angry, and things feel as they should be. But others...it's hard to explain. I know that person's pain or frustration, but I don't feel sorry for them or anything. Just...empty. Like I should feel something, but I don't.

Has anybody else experienced this?

 

[BigApplePi]

This is something that I've been thinking on a lot for the past few months. Around the same time, I found I was an INTP, and an Empath. For those of you who don't recognize the term "Empath", it refers to any person who can percieve and understand the emotions and viewpoint of others. It could broadly be considered "physchic", but before I am buried with skepticism, I don't mean Empathy is anything supernatural. Nobody really knows how it works...there are theories, but no conclusions. If anybody wants further detail about Empathy, let me know.

Anyway. I visisted a forum dedicated to Empathy a while back, similar to how this forum is dedicated to INTP's. In a thread there concerning this particular subject, I found that most Empaths were INFJ and INFP. However, I find that everything about me fits the INTP description...as well as the description of an Empath.

The one thing I mainly notice that is different is: I understand emotions, but I don't EMPATHIZE. Sometimes I feel very strongly for the person who is sad, or angry, and things feel as they should be. But others...it's hard to explain. I know that person's pain or frustration, but I don't feel sorry for them or anything. Just...empty. Like I should feel something, but I don't.

Has anybody else experienced this?

Eclipse. Could we say an INTP can "intuit" where the other person is at -- before anything has to reach consciousness? For me that is because (assuming I have this right) I am dealing with someone whom I don't know so if I'm to get anywhere in understanding this mystery, I have to get a feel for them -- not that I'm successful. Another person might just be totally themselves or ride roughshod over what the other person is saying. Don't know if this makes sense.

Woody Allen made a movie about this but I can't place it at the moment.

 

[Adymus]

Well what you are describing sounds like Fe.

INTPs have Fe, it is far away and hard to reach, but it is accessible, so I am not exactly impressed. Which is why I don't see why it is appropriate to go around calling yourself an "Empath" considering what you are doing is within the reach of just about every person. We all have a built in apparatus that is meant to be able to read people. In fact, a large portion of my ability to read a person's type comes from my ability to read their emotional content.

 

[pjoa09]

hmmm if you feel how they feel, then wouldnt it help you feel better if they felt better?

http://hubpages.com/hub/Psychism--7-Signs-Youre-an-Empath

some reference, maybe its not a good source but, if u can walk away from someone in pain, then u couldnt be an empath. if you couldn't then you arent an intp. i'd pay a beggar a dollar not to solve his problems but to solve my problem of him irritating me.

 

[Dormouse]

I used to be a total empath...

That got crushed, though, along with innocence and youth.

I was very in touch with everyone. And everything. And immediatly adopted the emotions of the people around me, or of whatever seemed to suit the general vibe of the room. Yeah. If anybody was sad, I would start crying. All it took to keep me happy was a calm atmosphere.

Glad that's over with, I actually have control over my own feelings now.

 

[BigApplePi]

Here is the Woody Allen film I was thinking of: It's called Zelig. A little beyond being an empath --
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zelig

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

Mirror Neurons

 

[walfin]

some reference, maybe its not a good source but, if u can walk away from someone in pain, then u couldnt be an empath.

I remember reading on wikipedia something about women in Milgram's experiment.

They suffered greater emotional distress but ended up following cruel orders more.

It's possible that people may be empathetic but lack willpower.

 

[Jennywocky]

This is something that I've been thinking on a lot for the past few months. Around the same time, I found I was an INTP, and an Empath. For those of you who don't recognize the term "Empath", it refers to any person who can percieve and understand the emotions and viewpoint of others. It could broadly be considered "physchic", but before I am buried with skepticism, I don't mean Empathy is anything supernatural. Nobody really knows how it works...there are theories, but no conclusions. If anybody wants further detail about Empathy, let me know.

Anyway. I visisted a forum dedicated to Empathy a while back, similar to how this forum is dedicated to INTP's. In a thread there concerning this particular subject, I found that most Empaths were INFJ and INFP. However, I find that everything about me fits the INTP description...as well as the description of an Empath.

The one thing I mainly notice that is different is: I understand emotions, but I don't EMPATHIZE. Sometimes I feel very strongly for the person who is sad, or angry, and things feel as they should be. But others...it's hard to explain. I know that person's pain or frustration, but I don't feel sorry for them or anything. Just...empty. Like I should feel something, but I don't.

Has anybody else experienced this?

I think some INTPs can be Empaths. (I'm one of them.) Curious, did you ever do your cog function test and see what your Ni score is?

In any case, Ti+Ne can emulate empathetic experiences, and esp if you have some aesthetic skills and socialization or other things that emulate some F qualities, you can find yourself connectinh with others.

It's not uncommon for INTPs to have low levels of emotion or just be pretty stable in terms of their own emotional state if they have their environment controlled properly. And if they are in an emotionally UNSTABLE environment, the way to stay stable is to detach inside.

It sounds like you feel their emotions (which to me means you are "projecting" into the model you have created of them in your head... INTPs create internal models of external reality, and I think this lends itself to empathy where we model their perspective inside us and then experience it firsthand as if we were them)... but I don't know if "feeling sorry for someone" is a requirement to being an empath. Note the internal modeling method is already detached from the person/original object. So feeling sorry for them is almost like an additional step -- you choose to sync up with them emotionally, as a form of solidarity or connection.

... sorry this response probably seems very scattered, you've raised an insightful topic with nuance and I haven't thought through all of it yet.

 

[Jennywocky]

This is something that I've been thinking on a lot for the past few months. Around the same time, I found I was an INTP, and an Empath. For those of you who don't recognize the term "Empath", it refers to any person who can percieve and understand the emotions and viewpoint of others. It could broadly be considered "physchic", but before I am buried with skepticism, I don't mean Empathy is anything supernatural. Nobody really knows how it works...there are theories, but no conclusions. If anybody wants further detail about Empathy, let me know.

Anyway. I visisted a forum dedicated to Empathy a while back, similar to how this forum is dedicated to INTP's. In a thread there concerning this particular subject, I found that most Empaths were INFJ and INFP. However, I find that everything about me fits the INTP description...as well as the description of an Empath.

The one thing I mainly notice that is different is: I understand emotions, but I don't EMPATHIZE. Sometimes I feel very strongly for the person who is sad, or angry, and things feel as they should be. But others...it's hard to explain. I know that person's pain or frustration, but I don't feel sorry for them or anything. Just...empty. Like I should feel something, but I don't.

Has anybody else experienced this?

I think some INTPs can be Empaths. (I'm one of them.) Curious, did you ever do your cog function test and see what your Ni score is?

In any case, Ti+Ne can emulate empathetic experiences, and esp if you have some aesthetic skills and socialization or other things that emulate some F qualities, you can find yourself connectinh with others.

It's not uncommon for INTPs to have low levels of emotion or just be pretty stable in terms of their own emotional state if they have their environment controlled properly. And if they are in an emotionally UNSTABLE environment, the way to stay stable is to detach inside.

It sounds like you feel their emotions (which to me means you are "projecting" into the model you have created of them in your head... INTPs create internal models of external reality, and I think this lends itself to empathy where we model their perspective inside us and then experience it firsthand as if we were them)... but I don't know if "feeling sorry for someone" is a requirement to being an empath. Note the internal modeling method is already detached from the person/original object. So feeling sorry for them is almost like an additional step -- you choose to sync up with them emotionally, as a form of solidarity or connection.

... sorry this response probably seems very scattered, it's an insightful topic with nuance and I haven't thought through all of it yet.

Well what you are describing sounds like Fe.

I don't really think it does. But I've already explained the alternate pathway above. BigApplePi is close, in seeing it as an "intuit" process. Fe is not an intuition, it is an understanding and compliance/communication via an external list of social understandings based on the society's idea of functional community.

 

[Kidege]

I think INTPs are prone to perceiving people's motivations. Understanding how much of those motivations are emotion, can be done with some work. Understanding from their emotional POV and fully "empathizing" is harder for us.

As for "empath" as somewhat "psychic"... why not?

 

[uth]

In any case, Ti+Ne can emulate empathetic experiences, and esp if you have some aesthetic skills and socialization or other things that emulate some F qualities, you can find yourself connectinh with others.

It's not uncommon for INTPs to have low levels of emotion or just be pretty stable in terms of their own emotional state if they have their environment controlled properly. And if they are in an emotionally UNSTABLE environment, the way to stay stable is to detach inside.

It sounds like you feel their emotions (which to me means you are "projecting" into the model you have created of them in your head... INTPs create internal models of external reality, and I think this lends itself to empathy where we model their perspective inside us and then experience it firsthand as if we were them)... but I don't know if "feeling sorry for someone" is a requirement to being an empath. Note the internal modeling method is already detached from the person/original object. So feeling sorry for them is almost like an additional step -- you choose to sync up with them emotionally, as a form of solidarity or connection.

I think you're right. I can be empathic, and people do lean on me to listen to them sometimes. But I understand them through a logical/intuitive process. I can understand why a certain chain of events well leave them feeling a certain way... (the modelling) but it helps if I've experienced something similar to relate to. On the other hand, sometimes people get upset over something that seems trivial, and I have a very hard time being empathic.

 

[boradicus]

Like with the experience related by Dormouse, I think that just because the decision making process does not align for us along the Fe axis, that that does not mean we are not capable of feeling deeply or recognizing within ourselves strong emotions in sympathy with those whom we observe. I have been a very passionate person throughout my life, and yet my decision process was never based in how I felt about something with the exception of artistic expression. Just because the majority of our decision process is not based in Fe doesn't mean that we do not have strong feelings. In fact, being able to intuit a person's emotional state can reciprocate by our awareness of their feelings similar feelings in ourselves - and strong feelings as well - how we respond to these feelings and our understanding of them is another matter.

 

[Lobstrich]

This is something that I've been thinking on a lot for the past few months. Around the same time, I found I was an INTP, and an Empath. For those of you who don't recognize the term "Empath", it refers to any person who can percieve and understand the emotions and viewpoint of others. It could broadly be considered "physchic", but before I am buried with skepticism, I don't mean Empathy is anything supernatural. Nobody really knows how it works...there are theories, but no conclusions. If anybody wants further detail about Empathy, let me know.

Anyway. I visisted a forum dedicated to Empathy a while back, similar to how this forum is dedicated to INTP's. In a thread there concerning this particular subject, I found that most Empaths were INFJ and INFP. However, I find that everything about me fits the INTP description...as well as the description of an Empath.

The one thing I mainly notice that is different is: I understand emotions, but I don't EMPATHIZE. Sometimes I feel very strongly for the person who is sad, or angry, and things feel as they should be. But others...it's hard to explain. I know that person's pain or frustration, but I don't feel sorry for them or anything. Just...empty. Like I should feel something, but I don't.

Has anybody else experienced this?

I definately feel the same way! Alot!
I can easily think "Okay, I can understand why people are sad because of certain things. I can talk to the m about it. But I don't feel sorry for anyone. The only people I can feel sorry for, is the people that don't expect you to feel sorry for them, Or when they are not even complaining but you KNOW they are having a tough time.

EDIT: I'm not an Empath, but I can empathize.

 

[cheese]

As I understand it/after some research:

Empaths are people who take on the feelings of others. This is how they know what others are feeling.

People who understand through a logical or intuitive process what people are feeling are not empaths. The term doesn't apply if you do not experience their feelings.

An experience I read about frequently involves the empath confusing others' emotions for their own. Learning to separate self from others is a major step for them.

 

[Adymus]

I don't really think it does. But I've already explained the alternate pathway above. BigApplePi is close, in seeing it as an "intuit" process. Fe is not an intuition, it is an understanding and compliance/communication via an external list of social understandings based on the society's idea of functional community.

Actually it does, especially when combined with either Si or Ne.

You see the emotion of a person and your Fe pics this up, then your Si or Ne reads what it is. Your Fe can be used to read a person's emotional content, and then it is up to the perception functions to gain insights into that it is reading.

 

[空 空]

As I understand it/after some research:

Empaths are people who take on the feelings of others. This is how they know what others are feeling.

People who understand through a logical or intuitive process what people are feeling are not empaths. The term doesn't apply if you do not experience their feelings.

An experience I read about frequently involves the empath confusing others' emotions for their own. Learning to separate self from others is a major step for them.

If so, then i might be labeled as one with relative accuracy.

Combination of this phenomenon and one of shitty people skills / disinterest has produced many a bane. Top this with a late realisation that not everyone is like this...

I have much to learn about benefitial use of this.. characteristic.

May I inquire, does anyone have something to share about healthy development related to such an existance? A method of harvesting, so to speak?

 

[Eclipse]

Wow...thanks for all the replies!

I'm not sure who, but somebody in here gave a very good description of me. I have a lot of trouble with crowds and high-tension areas, or being around a few people that are hyped up or angry. It gives me headaches a lot of the time, and gives me mood swings. A while ago, before I ever thought I could be an Empath, I got to freezing my expression to neutral to avoid the effects of the mood swings.

As for detatching...I've been told that's what I should do by a lot of people. When I try it, I get what I described earlier: a cold, dead feeling, like I understand the person's emotions and pain but don't actually EMPATHIZE with them.

The best way to describe how I read people is a sense of knowing. I just KNOW that this person is angry, or upset, or nervous, whatever. After some research, I found there was some kind of...ability, I'll call it, known as "Interpersonal Behavioral Analyzation", or "Interpersonal Behavioral Perception". Apprently, this is confused with Empathy a lot because there is no concious control; the person experiencing it only knows the result. With this ability, a person subconciously relates the tiniest body movements (i.e. eyes flickering, hand shaking, etc) to certain emotions. With time, their subconciousness learns to recognize patterns and groups the signs together. Their mind, on its own, would see every single aggressive motion by another person, and the concious mind would only see "this person is angry".

I've started to think this may be the case with INTP's and INTJ's who experience Empathy. The analyzation aspect of IBA fits with the general description of our types.

I hope this isn't too jumbled. Whenever I try to put everything in good order, it ends up far too long.

 

[Geminii]

I can empathise, but it's a different mental mode for me. It requires switching to a kind of 'following' state, where I'm not actively thinking, just mirroring someone. I tend to use most of my brainpower to do so, but mainly because if I start multitasking with something else, I start cogitating and losing the 'flow'.

When I am doing it, though, it doesn't need to be in person. I can do it across the phone, over internet chat, any semi-realtime comms channel will do.

It's an interesting and different place to go, mentally, but it's not really part of my day-to-day experience. And I haven't worked out yet how to run it as a background process - it's all or nothing.

 

[Eclipse]

Sounds interesting. I wonder if I could do it, maybe...but I don't know. Contrary to the INTP image, I have some trouble concentrating. Well, in a way. I can concentrate on things very well if I want to, which poses a problem in school where I always choose to concentrate on something more interesting than the teacher ^_^

 

[Fallenman]

Eclipse do you have any articles regarding "Interpersonal Behavioral Analyzation"? This whole post has been the #1 paradox I've encountered with being typed INTX. I mean one of the paradigm themes of being an INTX is in how asocial, and or how emotionally inept we are. I have never in my life had a problem socializing and in fact I've never had a person hate me or dislike me unless it was warranted and even then the tensions usually died away. Essentially I am considered a very nice person and people say they have an easy time opening up to me etc etc.

Now this empath stuff, I don't think I was ever empath in the sense that I couldn't differentiate others emotions from my own, but I used to be able to hear a persons story and feel for them, but I feel like that arose from an understanding of where they were coming from, being able to walk in their shoes, and realizing that if it had happened to me i would have felt that way too, and on occasion i would feel that emotion too. Usually when I get that cold hearted indifference is when I understand where they're coming from but feel for what ever reason that it isn't a good enough reason to feel like them lol.

One thing I thought I was really good at doing was being able to discern a persons personality / motivations, and act accordingly. This I thought was that chameleon effect that we are supposed to be really good at doing. But sometimes I wouldn't even act on the knowledge of their motivations, it would just help to tell me what kind of person they are. But what has been boggling me recently is that when I started to go more in depth as to the underlying reasoning behind peoples emotions, I was attempting to understand women lol, I've found that I am constantly WRONG or at least i've been told i'm wrong and that has made me think or realize that maybe I don't understand emotions as well as I thought I did when I was able to understand where people were coming from....

But anyways, I just want to know if there were any interesting articles you found on Interpersonal Behavioral Analyzation, worth reading.

 

[BigApplePi]

But what has been boggling me recently is that when I started to go more in depth as to the underlying reasoning behind peoples emotions, I was attempting to understand women lol, I've found that I am constantly WRONG or at least i've been told i'm wrong and that has made me think or realize that maybe I don't understand emotions as well as I thought I did

Sometimes where people are coming from is out in the open if they tell you. But when they don't how are we to know? When someone displays an emotion, I'm not sure analysis is going to help much. More in order would be data collection or sympathy to elicit data collection.

 

[WALKYRIA]

I'm also an empath, and dayum it's hard.... the more people you see- AND CANt' help- the bad you feel. I've struggled lately with thaose notions. My job now is psychiatrist and I'm the happiest. Helping someone in emotional burden is my stre,ght although being an INTP. I don't even know if empathy has anything to do with or without MBTI... maybe it's something completely disconnected from mbti type.( bit like psychopathy or autism, which are " brain/structural disorders", rather than odd ways off behaving= personnality disorder traits(INTp,..Etc)...)


I feel the worse in crowds, because people tend to feel bad and act serious in crowds for whatever reason.( guess it has to do with empathy also, or mimetism..." he feels bad, than I do feel bad"..etc).


SO yeah, another EMpath here... who may also be Highlys ensitive people or emotional sponges.
The sad thing is that being an empath you can't just do bad things and feel ok about it... and god knows this world and society requires you to do bad things.( divorce, fighting for things you want, fighting for a mate, fighting for a job,..Etc).. Therefore I suspect that empaths might be prone to be losers.


The good thing is that we make you feel extremely good and our presence, listening skills and ability to channel good energy acts like a medecine. lol.
ALso, the ability to create positive energy around us is another thing we do.

 

[Yellow]

Looking at Cheese's description from 5 years ago, and remembering this stuff when I ran across it a few years ago, I don't understand how any NT can be an empath.

Personally, I can see other people's feelings and extrapolate further to help them understand why and how they have come to feel that way. I have a sense of consciousness that makes me to feel uncomfortable leaving loose ends that can lead back to me negatively (like walking away from a situation that calls for action). I notice patterns, and can predict a person's feelings and behavior when I'm bothering to pay attention. I can entertain another person's emotional actions and viewpoint, and explain it to others as if I lived it, but I certainly never feel it.

These are all intuition, observation, and strategy. How would any NT transcend the detachment to actually, genuinely empathize, and then go even further to internalize it?

Can one of you typing experts explain this development?

Edit: it looks like Jenny made a start 5 years ago, but it seems to be only half an answer.

 

[Jennywocky]

Jeez. The OP hasn't posted since December 2010, and half the members in here have been banned. But hey, I forgot I even posted in here years ago.

Looking at Cheese's description from 5 years ago, and remembering this stuff when I ran across it a few years ago, I don't understand how any NT can be an empath.

Personally, I can see other people's feelings and extrapolate further to help them understand why and how they have come to feel that way. I have a sense of consciousness that makes me to feel uncomfortable leaving loose ends that can lead back to me negatively (like walking away from a situation that calls for action). I notice patterns, and can predict a person's feelings and behavior when I'm bothering to pay attention.

These are all intuition, observation, and strategy. How would any NT transcend the detachment to actually, genuinely empathize, and then go even further to internalize it?

Can one of you typing experts explain this development?

Well, I think I described my experience more as an "intuitive model" of someone... like, I create my sense of a person in my head and interact with it, and can use it to then interact with the real person. And I can find connective experiences in my life that triggered certain emotions in me, so then I do a comparative process -- I use my own experiences and my own understanding of how the model of another person works to come up with an answer to what they might be feeling. (so, see the bold above in your post.)

But I think the real emotives don't do that; they actually work through some emotional connection I don't really experience. I feel like my emotions are almost secondary, triggered by the model/thought process. I don't get the people that immediately "feel" someone else. I'm sure not Deanna Troi.... That's a whole 'ther kind of empathy.

I do experience emotion. But hell, maybe that's where the feelings of isolation come from. My relationships might on some level just be overprocessed intellectual exercises, and I don't see a way to improve that. Meh.

 

[Alias]

I can relate well to OP. I feel more empathetic and latently NF than other INTPs seem to feel.

 

[Urakro]

I thought I was empathic at one time. It would run along the lines, "if I was that person, I would feel this way", and then watch for any signs that the person is exhibiting the same behaviours as I would.

But similar to thinking I'm clever, when I'm actually just too dull to realize that I'm not, I think I seen some big indications that I'm not very empathic either. Now, I'm noticing a lot of human behaviour that I don't understand. Being truthful with myself, I may have a hard time catching lies, and may even slide by a practical joke. What really makes me confused are emotional reactions that are targeted towards me. Playful teasing, anger, flirting, or being treated indifferently are some examples where it seems very random and without a source of identifiable intention that I could grasp. I put myself in their shoes during this, and it's a deliriously foreign terrain.

 

[Grayman]

I empathize with representations of people but not the people themselves. It's like empathizing with the characters in a book. You get to see their every thought and feeling and where they came from and where they are going and so you are able to understand and recreate what they are feeling.

If someone expresses emotions without me knowing the background or the path that led them there I cannot recreate what they are feeling. If someone cannot reason out their feelings and says things 'that is just how I feel' and they disregard any reason as to if they should feel that way I have a really hard time connecting or accepting their emotions as being valid. I am often tempted to tell people that they should feel a certain way because it make more sense to feel that way.

Maybe this is abnormal but I sometimes have to reason out my own emotions in such a manner before I recognize that I am even feeling it. I am in a debate with myself on whether I choose my emotions or simply highlight on existing emotions once I reason out my mental process.

I have suffered empathetic overload sort of...

My mind creates these representations of people without any effort on my part. You might say it takes more effort to keep them from being created and impersonal work helps to keep them out and fill in my thoughts with ideas instead of people. I can be overwhelmed when these representations replicate and then become very complex and start to exert a lot of emotions that soon overrun my other thoughts.

 

[Polaris]

I'm definitely not an empath. I can play that role very well, but it was conditioned from a young age - girls had to be caring, etc. I have done it to exhaustion in the past, but now I realise a lot of this behaviour stemmed from a need to be accepted, so it was never quite genuine. I have Alexithymic traits - how can one empathise when one cannot understand or even recognise one's own emotions?

I'm working on it....true empathy comes from an understanding and acceptance of the self.

 

[Haim]

It is more like I emulate emotion as part of intuitive and logical understanding when I want to predict person's actions or reasons of actions.I am not sure there is some connection to feelings or not.Oppose to she sounded like that when talking to him so she like him it is more the interaction between them seem like that and based on that she will probably react the same again,observing people and make intuitive model then use logic to calculate the most likely action.

 

[nanook]

Basically, i think, we are introverts, so we resonate with someone's subject, in so far it reveals itself. And we are good at reverse engineering impressions of the subject from little data, but only from data that actually holds relevant information. Whereas extroverts can resonate with someone's situational experience and related needs, insofar it reveals itself, regardless of who the other person is as a subject. And of course since we are both introverted and extroverted we can do it both ways, but we probably suck at the extroverted version of empathy. And in any case things can get in the way, like antipathy, conflict of interest or simply being overly consumed by the own experience, possibly being dissociated from the body, emotions, 'presence'.

Also This:

"Despite how open, peaceful and loving you attempt to be, people can only meet you as deeply as they've met themselves." The internet.


I think every introverted type likes to think of himself as being understanding. Because we would like to be understood. As subjects. Also i have experienced each introverted type as appearing detached and self absorbed in their own way. And when i say 'I experienced them this way' i am basically saying they were simply not involved in that experience, due to their limited extroversion.

While i have often identified more with Deanna Troy than with Mr Spock, i would rather call myself 'profiler' than 'empath', if mythical labeling is required to join the hipster party. I like how they call it in the show hannibal: "Pure Empathy". Not coming from a fixed idea of how someone's experience should change for "the better". Just taking it in and understanding it, accepting it. As a possibility of the subject. The drive is to get to know yourself. This is my design. Extrapolated to someone else.

Not sure if i'm IXTP or IXFP, but both types have little Fe and my ability to empathize with situational (extroverted) needs or wants or enthusiasm of someone is poor.

 

[Inquisitor]

I empathize with representations of people but not the people themselves. It's like empathizing with the characters in a book. You get to see their every thought and feeling and where they came from and where they are going and so you are able to understand and recreate what they are feeling.

If someone expresses emotions without me knowing the background or the path that led them there I cannot recreate what they are feeling. If someone cannot reason out their feelings and says things 'that is just how I feel' and they disregard any reason as to if they should feel that way I have a really hard time connecting or accepting their emotions as being valid. I am often tempted to tell people that they should feel a certain way because it make more sense to feel that way.

Maybe this is abnormal but I sometimes have to reason out my own emotions in such a manner before I recognize that I am even feeling it. I am in a debate with myself on whether I choose my emotions or simply highlight on existing emotions once I reason out my mental process.

I can relate well to OP. I feel more empathetic and latently NF than other INTPs seem to feel.

Yes. I can relate to this. INTPs need background info in order to be able to deduce what the other person is going through. Can they do this well with practice? Sure, but it's important to remember that there is no direct/immediate pathway for INTPs to consciously grasp their own or another person's motivations/emotions (with all the associate nuances) in the same way that an Fe dom can.

Say you're faced with someone who's having a crying fit: What actually happens is like Proxy said, mirror neurons trigger emotions, but since feeling is inferior, we are not immediately conscious of what we are actually feeling. Put another way: The only thing that is apparent is that an emotion has been triggered, which makes us think we are "empaths," but look carefully and you'll see that this is not the case.

A truly empathetic person is someone who is very much in touch with their own emotions (ie feeling is dominant), and who genuinely and regularly expresses their emotions/values to others. This can be a very confusing state of affairs because anytime the inferior is triggered, it feels very real subjectively, and you become falsely convinced of your own abilities to relate well to others' emotions. This is not actually the case, and a good way to "get back to reality" is to observe an ENFJ or ESFJ in action. Then you'll realize the last thing you are is an "empath."

I'm also an empath, and dayum it's hard.... the more people you see- AND CANt' help- the bad you feel. I've struggled lately with thaose notions. My job now is psychiatrist and I'm the happiest. Helping someone in emotional burden is my stre,ght although being an INTP. I don't even know if empathy has anything to do with or without MBTI... maybe it's something completely disconnected from mbti type.( bit like psychopathy or autism, which are " brain/structural disorders", rather than odd ways off behaving= personnality disorder traits(INTp,..Etc)...)


I feel the worse in crowds, because people tend to feel bad and act serious in crowds for whatever reason.( guess it has to do with empathy also, or mimetism..." he feels bad, than I do feel bad"..etc).


SO yeah, another EMpath here... who may also be Highlys ensitive people or emotional sponges.
The sad thing is that being an empath you can't just do bad things and feel ok about it... and god knows this world and society requires you to do bad things.( divorce, fighting for things you want, fighting for a mate, fighting for a job,..Etc).. Therefore I suspect that empaths might be prone to be losers.


The good thing is that we make you feel extremely good and our presence, listening skills and ability to channel good energy acts like a medecine. lol.
ALso, the ability to create positive energy around us is another thing we do.

Why do I get the impression that you're not actually a psychiatrist? Did you go to medical school and complete a residency?

 

[Grayman]

This has probably been stated but the forms of empathy are termed, cognitive empathy, emotional empathy, and compassionate empathy.

I would guess that the thinkers and feelers relate to cognative and emotional empathy accordingly. But I think compassionate empathy is an element based on the ego of the individual combined with their ability to empathize in one or two the first two forms of empathy.
I should add that any person who isn't suffering from a disorder is capable of both forms of empathy but has an affinity for one and may have a hard time recognizing their own empathetic responses. I am sure all intp babies react empathically to their parents smile without being concerned with why they are smiling.

 

[Jennywocky]

Oh, I dunno about that...

INTP Baby: WTF is my face moving like this???! ZOUNDS. have I been poisoned??? A seizure? Am I being remote controlled by that brat nemesis down the street? What could it MEAN?

... now I sound like Stewie.

 

[computerhxr]

Mirror Neurons

I came to this thread late so I haven't read all of the responses. I was going to reply with something similar. There is a mirrored symmetry to psychology. Everyone is an empath to varying degrees.

I dated an INFP before and it made me realize that we both were highly empathetic, just in totally different ways. She would feel other's emotions as if they were her own. I would understand emotions methodically.

It's a bit clearer when you understand Jung's types as cognitive functions rather than the emotions that the functions sometimes produce (again mirrored symmetry).

So I'm saying that there are cognitive empaths, and emotional empaths. It's easier to empathize when your natural mirrored response takes over your body.

Another thing that I find problematic about empaths is that sometimes they are referring to sympathy instead of empathy. I would say that an INTP would be less likely to be sympathetic, and more likely empathetic.

Both empathy and sympathy are feelings concerning other people. Sympathy is literally 'feeling with' - compassion for or commiseration with another person. Empathy, by contrast, is literally 'feeling into' - the ability to project one's personality into another person and more fully understand that person.

Also, I think the word psychic is misunderstood. It's more like psychology than a mystical premonition. You can predict the future logically, and your brain can do this unconsciously. Jung believed that these psychic premonitions were communicated through dreams. It seems obvious that some premonitions come in the form of gut feelings. Anything mystical about it? No, not at all.

This has probably been stated but the forms of empathy are termed, cognitive empathy, emotional empathy, and compassionate empathy.

I would guess that the thinkers and feelers relate to cognative and emotional empathy accordingly. But I think compassionate empathy is an element based on the ego of the individual combined with their ability to empathize in one or two the first two forms of empathy.
I should add that any person who isn't suffering from a disorder is capable of both forms of empathy but has an affinity for one and may have a hard time recognizing their own empathetic responses. I am sure all intp babies react empathically to their parents smile without being concerned with why they are smiling.

I didn't realize that there were terms for this already... I never heard of compassionate empathy. Would that be similar to sympathy?

Also, I agree with your logic. It goes back to the mirrored symmetry. Logically, all forms of empathy would be mirrored abstractions of one another. If you understand that, then you can compare and understand them on some abstract level. Jung's typology demonstrates my point (Extraversion is an abstract mirror of Introversion, S-N, T-F, J-P). And if you want to get really complicated, J-P is an abstract reflection of the previous mirrored functions. It makes sense logically and if you look at natural growth patterns you will see that mirroring is the basis of how life works in the universe.

 

[Black Rose]

One time I was crying and my aunt came into the room. She said jeremy please don't cry. That is my experience with Fe. She did not care why I was crying she just wanted me to stop so she would not feel bad not that she wanted me to not feel bad. It was about her not me. I cry for a reason and if you don't understand that reason or want to understand I will not feel better. That is why I care about understanding the reason people feel bad because I care about them on the inside not my reaction to them on the outside. I can recognize when someone talks to themselves and when they are going inside themselves or going outside themselves.

 

[Grayman]

I didn't realize that there were terms for this already... I never heard of compassionate empathy. Would that be similar to sympathy?

My understanding of sympathy strays a little from your earlier description.

Sympathy to me is when to people feel the same way about something and so you can relate. You may even be in their shoes but still coming from your own perspective.

I have trouble sympathizing with people because I see the world so differently and feel so differently about it than everyone else.


Even though I cannot sympathize very well, my mind is good at giving me representations of what people may feel later or are feeling now. I can feel what a person might be feeling even if I would be feeling something entirely different if I were in their shoes.

Cognative Empathy:
"I take notice that john tries really hard to remember everyone's name. I never care if people forget my name but I feel like he would be 'hurt' if I forgot it."
"hurt" - is meaning to describe an actual feeling or experience of what I see him feeling. What I see him feeling may be complex and too hard to describe.

Emotional Empathy:
When I saw john's face I could tell he was hurt.


Compassionate empathy = empathetic concern
This is just the general form of an emotional response to your empathy. (Compassion, pity, distress, tenderness, affection)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathic_concern


There is also finding the proper amount of detachment with your empathy or separating your emotions from those around you. It important to not detach too much as to not be able to connect with anyone around you. It is also important to detach enough in order to maintain identity and deal with emotional burnout.

I personally think detachment is one of the greatest variables in empathetic concern.

 

[Black Rose]

passion is a state of emotional arousal.
com-passion means tempering down reactions.

http://news.wisc.edu/13890

Brain scans show meditation changes minds, increases attention

"Most people, if they heard a baby screaming, would have some emotional response," Davidson says, but not the highly experienced meditators. "They do hear the sound, we can detect that in the auditory cortex, but they don’t have the emotional reaction."

 

[Grayman]

I think people want to relate the simulated response from empathy to Fe.

Simulated response: The baby laughing because the mom is even though the baby doesn't know what is funny.

I don't know if it is really accurate to say that Fe is really connected to empathy in that fashion but it makes since that people who are driven by feelings without the need to rationalize them all the time would also be easily driven by empathy without going through the process of filtering it and thus altering the reaction to their empathy.

 

[computerhxr]

My understanding of sympathy strays a little from your earlier description.

Sympathy to me is when to people feel the same way about something and so you can relate. You may even be in their shoes but still coming from your own perspective.

Thanks for the descriptions. The description of sympathy was from Wikipedia or Google.

 

[Grayman]

Thanks for the descriptions. The description of sympathy was from Wikipedia or Google.

Yeah, I think I felt that way about sympathy because people generally sympathize with those they share a lot of common ideas or feelings with.

It seems that a person who can understand and connect with people, without sharing in a lot of the same traits and without those people expressing an emotional reaction, is rare.



The simple process of understanding a persons feelings from your own perspective without needing an understanding of them doesn't seem to be deserving of the same category as these other forms of empathy...its too rudimentary.
It certainly does not fit with mirroring.
*****************************************************

I found these sites to be good

Defining empathy...
http://cultureofempathy.com/References/Definitions.htm

helping develop cognitive empathy
https://dschool.stanford.edu/groups/k12/wiki/3d994/Empathy_Map.html

The difference between tenderness and sympathy[feeling]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3491184/

 

[birdsnestfern]

Yes, I am also a Mirror Empath INTP. Its very unusual and difficult! There are tips you can try to help create boundaries so you don't feel others as much. Certain things that sound a bit crazy, but you can only try them to experience it and see if it helps. 1). When the energy of the world wears you down, try wearing a silk kimono or shirt. Silk literally cocoons you from outer world energies. 2). Hold certain crystals in your hands or in your pocket. Black crystals such as Tourmaline, Jet, Apache Tear, Obsidian will absorb the negative energies and protect you. Blue Kyanite held near your heart will soothe you after separations. Blue Halite is protective. Turquoise helps you transform. 3). Use your index finger to draw an imaginary circle of protection around yourself three times. 4). Imagine a beam of light coming down out of your spine and feet and beaming down into the earth about 20 or 30 feet deep. Then imagine the beam of light coming back up through you into the sky about 30 feet above you. Now, use your palms in an upward position to push the energy from below your spine up through your crown. Lift your beam of light upwards several times. This helps clear the chakras and gets things moving thru the blocked heart and throat again. 5). Try Soul Journeying (there is an audio book on amazon that is great for calling back the lost parts of yourself).

 

[ZenRaiden]

I would not say I lack empathy or ability to figure out stuff about people by trying to understand them cognitively.
Too old to be not able, then again I still feel like these things are different depending on lots of factors. I think I lack empathy in many situations others would have empathy. Never sure its just personality difference or PD.
I certainly had bad empathy when young, but it also stemmed maybe from various experiences.
I can certainly lack empathy for others, but I don't exactly know why or when I do empathize why.
Empathy is also about development of person so obviously its not just MBTI thing.
Pretty much any dis-regulated state of mind whether temporary or life long such as in mental illness will in some way diminish empathy.

There is also matter of focus and abstraction.
For instance I can certainly not feel stuff for things on the screen.
But seeing them is different.
I can see blood and gore on screen even real no problem to tolerate it, to some degree.
I cannot do that in real life.
I mean I cut my finger and fainted seeing my self bleeding.
I think in dangerous situations I just dissociate so I don't have much empathy in those situations.
I have a running theory that sometimes I dissociate, but I am not aware of it much.
For example I never felt dissociated from my body, but recently I also realized that I do not really feel much of my body the way I should? Doing yoga and stuff.
Can't really tell though as there are no comparison either.
I have no ability to compare my internal states with anyone else.

 

[sushi]

i can usually fake it.

 

[birdsnestfern]

Its complicated to be a mirror empath! I'm going to attempt to explain how it feels:

You reflect/mirror someone elses emotion and they don't like that their mask is seen through, they know you see their intent and they don't like seeing you reflect it back, and yet, you don't know its not you, because you just feel what they feel, for no reason. It can be really hard if there is a less than positive emotion you are mirroring! Think of bullies, think of sexual energy, think of excitement, judgement, distrust, etc, you mirror them!

Empaths and the Mirror Effect -

Mirroring in psychology is the subconscious imitation of another’s gestures, patterns, attitudes, or behavior. On the surface, most people use...

www.littleyellowdot.com

One way to get through this, is to only do social events in limited amounts. And when you do, shrink your chakras down to very small spinning disks. This allows less 'other' energy in.

Now, the difficult part is, I'm not a Fe empath, I do not always know how to react to others, I'm a mirror empath on the inside, so I can feel it in ME, not them so much. I mean, if you are a Fe empath you are likely really good at interpersonal skills. If you are a Thinker empath the lines get crossed, you are not necessarily GOOD at knowing what to say or do, it overwhelms, and your response is to retreat to escape it and release it as its just too much Fe to handle or process. Sensory Processing issues I suppose.

 

[Black Rose]

INTP Empath

 

[birdsnestfern]

Interesting..... thanks! Bustamante is an INTP empath? Or Lex Fridman? Maybe both are! Anyway, Fascinating.

Ukraine is a Pawn where Russia is using it to calculate superpower country capabilities. Russia needs Ukraine for protection but this is a show for the world to see Russia vs the rest of the worlds capabilities.

Loved listening to the CIA aspects of it. Its making me go silent. Good podcast: