INTP and 'people pleasing'

[snowqueen]

I've recently been working on my tendency to 'people please' again. It's something I've been aware of for years, sort of on the back burner and I have from time to time tried to change this behaviour with varied levels of success. Recent events made me think I need to work on this tendency in a more committed way in order to avoid some of the pitfalls I tend to get into in relationships. I came across this very useful book and am currently working my way through it.

The book proposes that there are 3 ways that people-pleasing manifests:

1. People-pleasing mindsets - driven by the thought that you must strive for everyone to like you, other people's needs come before your own and a belief that being nice will protect you from rejection and other hurtful treatment.
2. People-pleasing habits (behaviour) - can't say 'no', can't delegate, always doing things for other people. Driven by a (almost addictive) need for approval.
3. People-pleasing feelings - the above behaviours driven by the avoidance of frightening and uncomfortable feelings - conflict avoidance, anger avoidance, fear

I have small tendencies of 1 and 2 but have discovered that I am overwhelmingly an emotionally-driven people pleaser.

Now, in my case, it's not hard to understand why that is. In fact, there is a stereotype 'parent' cited in the book who exactly (I can't stress this enough) fits my mother.

The message goes like this:

You are to fulfil each and every request or order I issue, no matter what you are doing or how you feel. And, you must smile and be happy all the time. If I ever hear you complain or show any signs of an emotion other than happiness, you will be punished. If you fail to do these things perfectly, I will not love you any more.

This isn't news to me - it's just that this kind of childhood trauma does take a long time to overcome. The next paragraph is quite revealing:

This sounds like the deranged dialogue of the mean stepmother character in a fairy tale. Alternatively, in darker, real-life terms, the speaker might be a narcissistic 'Mommy Dearest', subjecting her child to emotional and psychological abuse.

That is my mother. Yes, it is a miracle that I am as sorted out as I am.

Anyway, that isn't quite the point of this post. What I was wanting to explore is whether being an INTP makes you particularly vulnerable to the effects of this kind of abuse - and it doesn't need to be this extreme - my case is particularly bad, but a lot of parents who are controlling will exhibit some forms of this behaviour with the best of intentions.

The reason I was wondering about it (and was prompted in part by a conversation with Sapphire Harp) was that there are some traits of being INTP that might make you prone to this kind of internalised response.

1. We are uncomfortable with our emotions, find it hard to process emotions and probably tend to avoid having to feel them if at all possible. In particular, I would imagine that negative emotions are particularly problematic. Therefore, a tendency to look for ways to avoid feeling negative emotions may drive you to think of ways to avoid situations where they arise and may lead to developing people pleasing behaviours. This would feed into the emotionally-driven people pleasing strand.

2. We are often misunderstood and experience criticism and rejection as children from parents, siblings, peers and teachers. This kind of childhood experience can lead to the development of strategies to please people to gain approval and avoid rejection even if it isn't the result of serious abuse.

3. We desire connection. Although most INTPs are happy in their own company we are not like some of the other introverts in that we do want to find other people to connect to in the way we like to connect with people - through discussion, debate, exchange and honing of ideas, playing with imagination, stupid humour etc. Virtually every newbie on this forum says something along the lines of 'I'm so glad I found you I thought I was the only one'. This desire for connection can lead to frustration when we are teenagers particularly - upset that we can't seem to form the social ties that our peers do apparently effortlessly, we might start to do people pleasing behaviours - trying to work out what other people want and do that in an effort to gain acceptance and approval.

4. We are incredibly good at mirroring. It's an INTP talent so why not use it? We can pass ourselves off as 'like you' and when it works, it reinforces the strategy, except that it leads us into people pleasing territory.

Here are a few quotes which I found particularly relevant to my own experience:

The more you identify with being nice, instead of being real the more you will find yourself plagued by nagging doubts, insecurities and lingering fears.

As a people pleaser your emotional tuning dials are jammed on the frequency of what you believe other people want or expect of you. In staying so finely tuned to the real and perceived needs of others, you often turn a deaf ear to your own inner voice.

The 'Disease to Please' creates a psychological blockage against both sending and receiving negative emotions, For this reason it cripples the very relationships you slave to satisfy and try so hard to protect. If you cannot express negative feelings, your relationships will simply lose their authenticity. You will come across as a one-dimensional cardboard figure rather than a rich multi-dimensional human personality full of interesting facets and sides.

I don't do this stuff with friends or work colleagues but I definitely do with Love Interests. In fact, I do it increasingly as I get to like them. I can start off real, but then slowly become more and more vigilant about meeting (what I imagine are) their needs and wants of me.

Does this strike a chord with anyone? Do you think this is particular vulnerability for INTPs?

 

[Mondorius]

Oh gosh, yes. Definetely rings a bell. That's how I act with others in a nutshell.

I did come to realise it on my own, but I'm left quite confused about who I am. Don't know from who I got this behavior, my own mother is the prime suspect, though.

I'm quite a bit of #1, although I don't realise it when I do it, only afterwards. #2 isn't as much of a problem and #3 I definetely do.

As far as your explanations go, you hit the nail on the head as far as I'm concerned. I can easily see myself behaving as a people-pleaser for all 4 reasons you gave.

I tend to do it with people I'm interested in. Be it a love interest or friendship. I tend to act as a people-pleaser whenever I'm with someone I want to know but I don't yet.

ps.: ack, gotta leave for work, definitely coming back to this thread afterwards.

 

[beastie]

I have people pleased all my life however until the past few years I didnt see it as pleasing other people per se but more as having the ability to help people that said they needed help and willinglly putting vast time and resources into solving "the problem" at my own expense.
My mum was emotionally absent and my father controlling. I always felt I needed to please them, to reach some sort of standard which was undefined but I never seemed to reach no matter how hard I tried. I achieved high grades and followed the rules yet was still chastised, punished, belittled and compared to others.
My childhood was empty of praise and encouragement unless what I was undertaking would make my parents look good but the "encouragement" was empty and I felt this.
I was constantly blamed for things outside my control which I know now had nothing to do with me - things that were due to others shortcomings not mine. I thought my father was some kind of god but now I know otherwise.
I was searching through online books one day and under
The Search for the Real Self
and saw this re Sartre:
...performed as a mirroring object to meet their needs, rather than his own, to complete their selves at the cost of his own real self...

This really struck a chord with me because looking back I feel what I was actually doing was completing my parents, not growing as a child and completing myself.
I find it really hard not to people please now - I feel that its somehow my "job" or purpose to help because I grew up this way.
I also must add I had a sibling with a disability and it was "my job" to help him, teach him, make allowances for him and take the blame for him. This I suppose reinforced the people helping "thing".
The purpose of all this is not to have a vent but to explain how I believe I became a people pleaser.
My life has become progressively messier throughout the years helping people including partners with their problems and they have since moved on with their problems/issues "solved". I have been left to pick up the pieces of my life (which I have successfully done many times). Then the next person "happens".
I also realised that I was choosing (or attracting) partners who needed something from me - I obviously did not feel worthy in a relationship unless I was needed (ie doing something for them). A big problem with this is that when it got to a point that I actually wanted something from them, they were out the door. This "something" I wanted was help from them to do with something I was helping them with. In hindsight I feel stupid.
I am female and when I cry (which is very rare) I feel like I dont have the right to and if I am doing it in the presence of a male I feel like I am being manipulative (I saw my mum do this). My emotions are warped.
Anyway to cut to the short...
I am forcing myself now to do only what I want to do and only do things for myself (within reason). I have to do this for the time being - I will refine it to something nicer when I eventually feel worthy enough to stand up for myself and take time for myself without feeling guilty that I am somehow taking something away from someone. I am slowly coming to terms with people not liking me for this but with every step I take, I become more of me and less of others.
In regards to INTPness I think the chameleon part of me contributed to my compliance in the above.

 

[The Fury]

I really don't think that I'm a people pleaser. I'm not afraid to argue with others when I disagree with them and I've almost gotten into fights with people simply because I'm always wiling to speak my mind.

That said, there are times when I withhold my true feelings in order not to hurt those I care about. But rather than attempt to placate them I'll simply enter a relaxed state where the more upset they get, the more I present a calm demeanor even though deep inside I feel intense stress.

I was however a definite people pleaser when I got to secondary school. My self worth was so low because I had been bullied a great deal, both at home and at school and I believed I had to hide who I was so people would like me. I got over this when I was around sixteen as I became friends with people who valued me for who I was rather that all the users I met in secondary school who just stayed in my company because I was the class clown.

 

[Inappropriate Behavior]

Interesting, but I can't say I relate to it much. I try to please people in limited ways, usually by doing something I'm good at and take pride in but it usually ends there. I didn't have to deal with anything like you did so it's possibly just environmental. As to whether or not INTPs are more vulnerable, we can only speculate unless we can study other types to see if they have more or less of these behaviors.

1. We are uncomfortable with our emotions, find it hard to process emotions and probably tend to avoid having to feel them if at all possible. In particular, I would imagine that negative emotions are particularly problematic. Therefore, a tendency to look for ways to avoid feeling negative emotions may drive you to think of ways to avoid situations where they arise and may lead to developing people pleasing behaviours. This would feed into the emotionally-driven people pleasing strand.

Very true but there is more than one strategy to avoid negative emotions. Distancing oneself, developing a strong sense of apathy or taking a perverse pleasure in upsetting others come to mind (I'm good at distancing and can sometimes be apathetic).

4. We are incredibly good at mirroring. It's an INTP talent so why not use it? We can pass ourselves off as 'like you' and when it works, it reinforces the strategy, except that it leads us into people pleasing territory.

This I do as a means of getting along (especially when I have to i.e. work) So in this sense I can be a people pleaser but I've always kept work/social lives seperate. I never liked the idea of bringing together work friends and social friends. Probably because I wouldn't know how to act. I'm myself around social friends, at work it's just an act (a means to an end as it were).

 

[walfin]

I definitely identify with the controlling mother bit. I don't try to please her anymore. The ironic thing is she's a people-pleaser herself (she attempts to please everyone except her husband and children, whom she tries to control).

What I was wanting to explore is whether being an INTP makes you particularly vulnerable to the effects of this kind of abuse - and it doesn't need to be this extreme - my case is particularly bad, but a lot of parents who are controlling will exhibit some forms of this behaviour with the best of intentions.

Hmm...the nature-nurture debate comes to mind. Perhaps having parents (or secondary/high school acquaintances) who are like that might be one of the factors that made us INTP (the P part, at least)?

Like the book says, this is a vicious cycle. I agree that it's probably worse for an INTP, because of our naturally poor understanding of emotions and tendency to get stuck in infinite thinking loops trying to figure out what people want. And when we face rejection, it's even harder to brush off because we've expended so much mental effort.

 

[Artifice Orisit]

Great thread snowqueen.

Irl I rarely try to placate people, but I am very placid, so much so in fact that it occasionally annoys people, they seem to be insulted by it, for reasons beyond my understanding.

Also I'm quite non-confrontational, preferring to use blackmail whenever possible.
That's one of the few advantages to having a smart mother, she can take a hint.
e.g. "so mum, remind me again what things I'm not supposed to say tonight..."
(rhetorical tone of voice)

Just subtle enough to be polite; blunt enough to make sure the threat is taken seriously.
(it's okay, she raised me to be this way)

I definitely identify with the controlling mother bit. I don't try to please her anymore. The ironic thing is she's a people-pleaser herself (she attempts to please everyone except her husband and children, whom she tries to control).

I empathise with you here, to the letter.

This "something" I wanted was help from them to do with something I was helping them with. In hindsight I feel stupid. I am female and when I cry (which is very rare) I feel like I dont have the right to and if I am doing it in the presence of a male I feel like I am being manipulative (I saw my mum do this). My emotions are warped.

But completely understandable, just don't let it anger you.
...
Well okay, I can't really tell you not to, but I've had much experience with people who don't receive their expected "what goes around, comes around" positive karma, and it's never pretty. Personally I try help others with the preconception that they're probably not going to help me in return, this has made me far less willing to help people unless my help is specifically requested or I perceive some manner of ulterior gain to be had.

The more you identify with being nice, instead of being real the more you will find yourself plagued by nagging doubts, insecurities and lingering fears.

In other words, being an asshole is fun

Btw @-Mondorius
Great avatar.

 

[snowqueen]

Thanks for the responses so far - very interesting. Beastie, in particular I really appreciate what you shared because it's pretty much exactly what's happened to me and where I'm at! You said:

The purpose of all this is not to have a vent but to explain how I believe I became a people pleaser.

Yup I got that :-)

IB I wasn't suggesting that INTPs will be by definition people pleasers - but rather that in the event of particular inputs it's maybe a trap we are more vulnerable to falling into.

Walfin - having had children I am much less convinced that personality is to do with nurture! But rather that personality can influence how we respond to nurture (or lack of).

 

[Ermine]

1.

People-pleasing mindsets - driven by the thought that you must strive for everyone to like you, other people's needs come before your own and a belief that being nice will protect you from rejection and other hurtful treatment.

I'm sometimes like this. I'm nice to the point that I'm known for being nice. My mind knows that not everyone needs to like me, and that I will experience rejection whether I'm nice or not. But emotionally, this drives me crazy. It torments me if someone dislikes me for an unjustified reason. Likewise, despite all my reasoning, I keep asking myself why I was rejected or mistreated despite being nice. My mind doesn't believe it but my emotions do.
2.

People-pleasing habits (behaviour) - can't say 'no', can't delegate, always doing things for other people. Driven by a (almost addictive) need for approval.

I try to say yes if I can, but I know where to draw the line. However, I am a bit too driven by approval. Regardless of how much I approve of what I'm doing, I will do worse if others don't approve.
3.

People-pleasing feelings - the above behaviours driven by the avoidance of frightening and uncomfortable feelings - conflict avoidance, anger avoidance, fear

I certainly avoid frightening and uncomfortable feelings, though I'm frightened by different things than most people. Anger and conflict don't scare me. They're only draining. What scares me is inadequacy/fear.

 

[Inappropriate Behavior]

IB I wasn't suggesting that INTPs will be by definition people pleasers - but rather that in the event of particular inputs it's maybe a trap we are more vulnerable to falling into.

I get ya, I just think it would be interesting to see how other types under similar circumstances would react to compare and contrast. That's the only way we can really gauge our types vulnerability. Right now it's a hypothesis (and a pretty good one as I would guess it is rather accurate). Perhaps some of our non-INTP members could shed light on it.

 

[Vrecknidj]

Does this strike a chord with anyone?

A chord, yes, though for me the childhood trauma was of a very different sort and included all kinds of weird interplay between my parents that, frankly, they probably were unaware of.

Do you think this is particular vulnerability for INTPs?

I don't know that it's particular to INTPs, but it might be particular to people with a relatively underdeveloped F function, or something of that sort.

I do, however, think you're on to something here.

Dave

 

[travelnjones]

I try to go by Leibniz, it is injust to avoid a small action that might bring someone else a great good. That has me doing a lot of things I would not normally. But After having a experience, that I have talked about elsewhere, I have started to realize people dont often want what is best for them or what is good for them. If I were to help people they would be less happy with me. I dont know how to please them anymore.

I do have problems with delegation. I can do it but I have to trust the person. I have found for me its best to go through life assuming everyone is an idiot until proven otherwise. At least at work.

 

[Xel]

Yes this does strike a cord with me. I always get so worked up over what other people's perceptions of me are. I feel like I need approval. I think it has something to do with the need to seem competent at whatever I do and as soon as a person doesn't seem to give me their approval I freak out a little bit. This provides motivation for me to keep away from alot of people so I don't make them dislike me.

 

[Cryss Winters]

Enjoyable thread, Snowqueen.​

Btw @-Mondorius
Great avatar.

Yeah, you would think that.​

 

[snowqueen]

I get ya, I just think it would be interesting to see how other types under similar circumstances would react to compare and contrast. That's the only way we can really gauge our types vulnerability. Right now it's a hypothesis (and a pretty good one as I would guess it is rather accurate). Perhaps some of our non-INTP members could shed light on it.

I could post it on Personality Cafe or Typology Central and report back!

 

[Cavallier]

This sounds like the deranged dialogue of the mean stepmother character in a fairy tale. Alternatively, in darker, real-life terms, the speaker might be a narcissistic 'Mommy Dearest', subjecting her child to emotional and psychological abuse.

Didn't you say this woman was staying at your house recently? *shudder* I hope this doesn't come across as crass and all what with the woman being your mom but...light that woman on fire!

That was harsh. I've got a grandmother whose exactly the same and I spent my childhood hating that woman. She comes within a 30 mile radius of me and I do this:

1. People-pleasing mindsets - driven by the thought that you must strive for everyone to like you, other people's needs come before your own and a belief that being nice will protect you from rejection and other hurtful treatment.

I don't have much trouble with this one. I mostly try to follow a Golden Rule mind set. This usually makes me come off as a nice person who strives to keep everyone happy.

I wonder if a lot of people pick up the mindset by being indoctrinated in it while young. So many teachers...hell, even Saturday morning cartoons...tell us that being nice is the key to happiness. Really? That seems a little deranged to me...

2. People-pleasing habits (behavior) - can't say 'no', can't delegate, always doing things for other people. Driven by a (almost addictive) need for approval.

I don't do this but I do tend to take on tasks that are too difficult for me because I actually think I can do the task. Then, when I start to fail, I forget to ask for help because I'm too busy trying to figure out how to do the task.(Perhaps I've got to big an opinion of my abilities ) This often comes across as an inability to say no. But in reality if I don't think I can get something done I'll simply say I can't do it.

3. People-pleasing feelings - the above behaviors driven by the avoidance of frightening and uncomfortable feelings - conflict avoidance, anger avoidance, fear

Okay, so up to a point I'll attempt to make everybody happy in order to avoid conflict...then I get frustrated. People say it's just my red hair but I sometimes wonder if I might have anger issues.

In order to combat this problem I've forced myself to become apathetic. I shrug a lot and bat away problems with my hand. (I guess that proves the conflict and anger avoidance issue you're talking about in #3) I've always suspected that I don't pick up the subtle nuanced emotions lacing a conflict.


So, I don't really think I'm a people pleaser...at least to a fault I'm not. I try but generally get frustrated with the results and give up.

WHY CAN'T EVERYBODY JUST GET ALONG?!?!? I know, I know: 'couse that would be boring.

 

[Gorgoroth]

I have people pleased all my life however until the past few years I didnt see it as pleasing other people per se but more as having the ability to help people that said they needed help and willinglly putting vast time and resources into solving "the problem" at my own expense.
My mum was emotionally absent and my father controlling. I always felt I needed to please them, to reach some sort of standard which was undefined but I never seemed to reach no matter how hard I tried. I achieved high grades and followed the rules yet was still chastised, punished, belittled and compared to others.
My childhood was empty of praise and encouragement unless what I was undertaking would make my parents look good but the "encouragement" was empty and I felt this.
I was constantly blamed for things outside my control which I know now had nothing to do with me - things that were due to others shortcomings not mine. I thought my father was some kind of god but now I know otherwise.
I was searching through online books one day and under
The Search for the Real Self
and saw this re Sartre:
...performed as a mirroring object to meet their needs, rather than his own, to complete their selves at the cost of his own real self...

This really struck a chord with me because looking back I feel what I was actually doing was completing my parents, not growing as a child and completing myself.
I find it really hard not to people please now - I feel that its somehow my "job" or purpose to help because I grew up this way.
I also must add I had a sibling with a disability and it was "my job" to help him, teach him, make allowances for him and take the blame for him. This I suppose reinforced the people helping "thing".
The purpose of all this is not to have a vent but to explain how I believe I became a people pleaser.
My life has become progressively messier throughout the years helping people including partners with their problems and they have since moved on with their problems/issues "solved". I have been left to pick up the pieces of my life (which I have successfully done many times). Then the next person "happens".
I also realised that I was choosing (or attracting) partners who needed something from me - I obviously did not feel worthy in a relationship unless I was needed (ie doing something for them). A big problem with this is that when it got to a point that I actually wanted something from them, they were out the door. This "something" I wanted was help from them to do with something I was helping them with. In hindsight I feel stupid.
I am female and when I cry (which is very rare) I feel like I dont have the right to and if I am doing it in the presence of a male I feel like I am being manipulative (I saw my mum do this). My emotions are warped.
Anyway to cut to the short...
I am forcing myself now to do only what I want to do and only do things for myself (within reason). I have to do this for the time being - I will refine it to something nicer when I eventually feel worthy enough to stand up for myself and take time for myself without feeling guilty that I am somehow taking something away from someone. I am slowly coming to terms with people not liking me for this but with every step I take, I become more of me and less of others.
In regards to INTPness I think the chameleon part of me contributed to my compliance in the above.

Wow, your story is certainly something new to my ears. As an INTP, I'm positive you have done research regarding your type, and have discovered that emotions (the understanding and conveyence of) are foreign concepts that we will develop more profoundly with time. Our parents have a vast and powerful influence in our lives, yet I have many of these same issues in my life. The interesting difference is my mother was perhaps overly supportive and loving to the point of smothering me and not allowing me to develop autonomously (which my father emphasized). Both my parents had and have high expectations from me (in my relationships, academia, etc.), and I found myself tailoring to their needs (more so my mothers) than my own. One of the reasons I believe we are more prone to situations of influence is a result of our easy-going nature but we cannot allow ourselves to be made demonstrations of or taken advantage of. I suggest trying to develop your intuition and sensing (auxiliary and tertiary traits) for they will aid us in understanding those around us (or at least their responses) instead of trying to analyze human emotions and just letting emotions be as "irrational" but as powerful as they sound. Emotions can be scary and unpredictable but thats why they're emotions and often not rationalized. They are undeniably part of us and to ignore them is to silence a part of yourself that often needs to be expressed somehow (not to say always expressed to another, just expressed).

 

[Yellow]

I know why I'm a people pleaser. I always allowed myself to be pushed into doing things for people because I was afraid to refuse. I have always been surrounded by overbearing people. My relatives, friends, everyone. I don't like conflict, I don't like emotional blackmail, and I hate being yelled at or hit. Therefore, I just learned to obey requests to avoid the negative consequences. Unfortunately, it is such a conditioned behavior, that new people in my life seem to figure it out quickly. That with a little pressure, I'll cave. Someone actually told me once that he knew all he had to do was say something in an intimidating way and I would give in.

I have learned to avoid manipulative, pushy people when I can help it. And when I can't avoid them, I know I have the right to refuse and stand my ground. I can ignore emotional pleas and I can just walk away when someone is trying to intimidate me. But in most situations, it isn't worth the stress of saying 'no', and I get stuck taking on the responsibilities anyway.

 

[Kassie]

You are to fulfil each and every request or order I issue, no matter what you are doing or how you feel. And, you must smile and be happy all the time. If I ever hear you complain or show any signs of an emotion other than happiness, you will be punished. If you fail to do these things perfectly, I will not love you any more.

This sounds exactly like my parents. They always do this to me and are angry when I don't enjoy it or just do it obediently like a good girl. I get so tired of it. I think it's done some emotional damage because I never want to be around them (I'll go to my room and shut the door), and when I hear them come home I start to get angry, depressed, and a little fearful and I avoid contact with them as long as possible. As soon as I come home from school my day is ruined (sometimes the minute I wake up even) because they're always either yelling at each other or yelling at my brother and me.

Then they always push for me to come back home when I'm finished with college, but I don't want to put up with them anymore, so I want to move away. They're too controlling for me to want to live in the same town as them, where they can bother me all the time.